|
As somebody who just joined the SC2 scene recently, these comments are immensely amusing to me. I followed the Counterstrike-scene more closely before and they had a very similar phenomenon with CS:Source. Old players claimed it requires less skill and thus is uninteresting, new players claimed it's a different game and the old players underestimate the difficulty (and thus would not be as successful as they say if they'd switch over). In the end: More people are still playing the old CS while eSports-viewers seem to prefer Source which slowly took the spotlight in tournaments and leagues. (Not saying this will happen the same way for SC).
The whole argument is as cute as it is ridiculous in my opinion. Of course BW-Pros have an advantage playing a similar RTS-game for years, of course sc2 is a different game requiring a hard training schedule to master, of course champions of SC1 can be very successful in SC2 if they use their talent and training mentality. So far though, I certainly didn't see anybody from BW "crushing" the SC2 scene in a crazy way. Also: Claiming a lot of high-ranked players used to play BW is irrelevant, since we are talking about Korea, and a high percentage of people really investing into becoming a pro-gamer played a lot of BW once. My personal opinion is, that if the top 200 BW players would switch over, they probably would be distributed fairly evenly among the top 200 SC2 players. Could be wrong of course, as I said, I just switched scenes a couple of month ago.
I still don't get though why people think "it's a farce" to enjoy good SC2 matches. People enjoyed sprinting competition in ancient Greece before somebody figured out how to run 100m in under 10s. I gladly accept all your arguments as soon as the BW players come over and dominate the scene and show us gameplay we've never seen before. But as it is, I am gladly enjoying the best Starcraft 2-Players on the planet battling it out on GomTV & Co.
|
On January 10 2012 23:01 turdburgler wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:53 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 22:52 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On January 10 2012 22:44 deadmau wrote:On January 10 2012 22:25 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 10 2012 22:20 Longshank wrote:On January 10 2012 22:11 Kyuki wrote:
Ugh, so tired of all the people with practically no BW experience coming here with ForGG as a argument as to why this thread is trash... Also one series... When he left the BW scene he was at best mediocre, sadly. After his MSL victory in 08, he was short of 50% winrate, and in the end he was closer to 40% winrate and didnt make anything happen in the individual leagues either. Sure, still one of the "best" at the time of the switch, but still not great by any means. Timing attacks was his game, and alot of his games was very all-in oriented.
I'm not saying he's a bad player, he's a great player and I'm sure he'll do great in code A and climb on no doubt, but using him as a argument is stupid. He's just one of many players that will eventually switch and those that are at the highest level of broodwar right now Will smash this game undoubtly.
People still forget that almost all of the top players in Code S are former BW players.. The point is that when the BETTER BW players switch over, it wont take that long before there will be a major swing in the top besides a few players that are really strong.
T_T Actually no, the point of this article, as stated by the OP himself, is that a player like ForGG and some hundred players worse than him would dominate the SC2 scene within months of switching. Well after 11 months of practice, ForGG proved that this was inaccurate. The point was never that the great BW pros would do great and probably dominate, claiming that now is a cowardly cop out. Actually that's exactly what I said in the article if you read my part. I believe that the top S class guys like Leta, Sea, Fantasy, Stork etc will be among the best SC2 players if they switch, but it is not guaranteed. However, if any of Jaedong or Flash do, they WILL be the best. Relephant quote: Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. ForGG, despite all the fun hype we've been giving him, is not even on the level of Sea Kal Calm etc. What Hot_Bid claims is obvious, just bunch of SC2-only generation of players bitching in here atm. Yeah. I believe that the top S class guys like Leta, Sea, Fantasy, Stork etc will be among the best SC2 players if they switch, but it is not guaranteed. So they'll do good... except they might not. That's not a prediction at all. However, if any of Jaedong or Flash do, they WILL be the best. Now there's a prediction. Except it only applies to the top 2 players in the world. The OP cast a much wider net though, I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. 300 players that can be instantly better at SC2 than the current players. I guess fOrGG was 301? Potential is the keyword i have the potential to be the best in the world woooooo scary prediction. if you need to caveat everything u say then you arent predicting much of anything
I don't disagree with you. BoxingKangaroo was saying that the article was predicting 300 broodwar players to switch and dominate instantly sc2. I just pointed out that the article, in this sentence, didn't say exactly that.
|
On January 10 2012 23:09 Fadobo wrote:
As somebody who just joined the SC2 scene recently, these comments are immensely amusing to me. I followed the Counterstrike-scene more closely before and they had a very similar phenomenon with CS:Source. Old players claimed it requires less skill and thus is uninteresting, new players claimed it's a different game and the old players underestimate the difficulty (and thus would not be as successful as they say if they'd switch over). In the end: More people are still playing the old CS while eSports-viewers seem to prefer Source which slowly took the spotlight in tournaments and leagues. (Not saying this will happen the same way for SC).
The whole argument is as cute as it is ridiculous in my opinion. Of course BW-Pros have an advantage playing a similar RTS-game for years, of course sc2 is a different game requiring a hard training schedule to master, of course champions of SC1 can be very successful in SC2 if they use their talent and training mentality. So far though, I certainly didn't see anybody from BW "crushing" the SC2 scene in a crazy way. Also: Claiming a lot of high-ranked players used to play BW is irrelevant, since we are talking about Korea, and a high percentage of people really investing into becoming a pro-gamer played a lot of BW once. My personal opinion is, that if the top 200 BW players would switch over, they probably would be distributed fairly evenly among the top 200 SC2 players. Could be wrong of course, as I said, I just switched scenes a couple of month ago.
I still don't get though why people think "it's a farce" to enjoy good SC2 matches. People enjoyed sprinting competition in ancient Greece before somebody figured out how to run 100m in under 10s. I gladly accept all your arguments as soon as the BW players come over and dominate the scene and show us gameplay we've never seen before. But as it is, I am gladly enjoying the best Starcraft 2-Players on the planet battling it out on GomTV & Co.
do you want to marry me... but seriously. This is soooo true!
|
I think it's important to also note that this article is old now and is just being needlessly bumped. It was written in may 2011, that's more than half a year ago. The scene has changed a lot since then and there's definitely a more serious feel now to the pros. When this article was written, the memory of Fruitdealer being really strong without practicing seriously was still fresh in memory, now, the same thing seems quite ridiculous, at least in the korean scene. Players ARE investing a lot of time to be good. While it's different from BW, I'd say that the time since this article was written has proven that the seriousness of training regimen etc is raised automatically with time as players get better. If Flash or Jaedong switched over, yeah, they would probably become top code S very quickly. But as they did, other players would be forced to work harder to stay competitive, and it wouldn't be such an obvious domination.
|
On January 10 2012 23:11 Linwelin wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 23:01 turdburgler wrote:On January 10 2012 22:53 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 22:52 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On January 10 2012 22:44 deadmau wrote:On January 10 2012 22:25 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 10 2012 22:20 Longshank wrote:On January 10 2012 22:11 Kyuki wrote:
Ugh, so tired of all the people with practically no BW experience coming here with ForGG as a argument as to why this thread is trash... Also one series... When he left the BW scene he was at best mediocre, sadly. After his MSL victory in 08, he was short of 50% winrate, and in the end he was closer to 40% winrate and didnt make anything happen in the individual leagues either. Sure, still one of the "best" at the time of the switch, but still not great by any means. Timing attacks was his game, and alot of his games was very all-in oriented.
I'm not saying he's a bad player, he's a great player and I'm sure he'll do great in code A and climb on no doubt, but using him as a argument is stupid. He's just one of many players that will eventually switch and those that are at the highest level of broodwar right now Will smash this game undoubtly.
People still forget that almost all of the top players in Code S are former BW players.. The point is that when the BETTER BW players switch over, it wont take that long before there will be a major swing in the top besides a few players that are really strong.
T_T Actually no, the point of this article, as stated by the OP himself, is that a player like ForGG and some hundred players worse than him would dominate the SC2 scene within months of switching. Well after 11 months of practice, ForGG proved that this was inaccurate. The point was never that the great BW pros would do great and probably dominate, claiming that now is a cowardly cop out. Actually that's exactly what I said in the article if you read my part. I believe that the top S class guys like Leta, Sea, Fantasy, Stork etc will be among the best SC2 players if they switch, but it is not guaranteed. However, if any of Jaedong or Flash do, they WILL be the best. Relephant quote: Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. ForGG, despite all the fun hype we've been giving him, is not even on the level of Sea Kal Calm etc. What Hot_Bid claims is obvious, just bunch of SC2-only generation of players bitching in here atm. Yeah. I believe that the top S class guys like Leta, Sea, Fantasy, Stork etc will be among the best SC2 players if they switch, but it is not guaranteed. So they'll do good... except they might not. That's not a prediction at all. However, if any of Jaedong or Flash do, they WILL be the best. Now there's a prediction. Except it only applies to the top 2 players in the world. The OP cast a much wider net though, I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. 300 players that can be instantly better at SC2 than the current players. I guess fOrGG was 301? Potential is the keyword i have the potential to be the best in the world woooooo scary prediction. if you need to caveat everything u say then you arent predicting much of anything I don't disagree with you. BoxingKangaroo was saying that the article was predicting 300 broodwar players to switch and dominate instantly sc2. I just pointed out that the article, in this sentence, didn't say exactly that.
Then the article isn't saying anything I suppose (if you take the 'potential' literally).
However the tone of the overall article suggests that the OP thinks that these 300 players not only have the potential to, but will dominate at SC2 with just a short prep period. We've seen that that is not the case.
|
300 was always probably an exaggeration by intrigue. And certainly games have different sets of skills that don't necessarily transfer over. Nestea has shown us that. I don't think many bw fans think that if everyone in bw switched together now then the current top sc2 pros would all disappear. But certainly there's a mix of a lot of raw talent and hard work ethic that the 50 or so very active A-team players in broodwar possess. And from them a fair few would probably do well in sc2 just like the current pros (A and B teamers) who have switched have done. And the bottom half of the GSL would probably be pushed down by it.
I don't think many bw fans are really trying to rag on the top pros and competition in sc2 at the moment. Equally I think most sc2 fans who never followed bw realise that the players who have had a background in bw overwhelmingly are the top performers in sc2.
Ultimately too often this thread feels like a battle between the games, when really, the top pros in each game don't belong to one game or another. A lot of them will likely play both games at some stage :p. People like Flash, Jaedong, MVP, Nestea belong to everyone.
|
On January 10 2012 23:13 Big J wrote:
So far though, I certainly didn't see anybody from BW "crushing" the SC2 scene in a crazy way. Also: Claiming a lot of high-ranked players used to play BW is irrelevant, since we are talking about Korea, and a high percentage of people really investing into becoming a pro-gamer played a lot of BW once. No, dude: MVP, Nestea, MC (who were awarded the best in their race for 2011 in the annual GSL cup) are all BW progamers. Not just playing it for fun or something, but winning position in a real professional team of Kespa (which, I tell you, is extremely difficult to accomplish in itself), and playing official matches in real BW leagues.
|
On January 10 2012 23:09 Fadobo wrote:
As somebody who just joined the SC2 scene recently, these comments are immensely amusing to me. I followed the Counterstrike-scene more closely before and they had a very similar phenomenon with CS:Source. Old players claimed it requires less skill and thus is uninteresting, new players claimed it's a different game and the old players underestimate the difficulty (and thus would not be as successful as they say if they'd switch over). In the end: More people are still playing the old CS while eSports-viewers seem to prefer Source which slowly took the spotlight in tournaments and leagues. (Not saying this will happen the same way for SC).
The whole argument is as cute as it is ridiculous in my opinion. Of course BW-Pros have an advantage playing a similar RTS-game for years, of course sc2 is a different game requiring a hard training schedule to master, of course champions of SC1 can be very successful in SC2 if they use their talent and training mentality. So far though, I certainly didn't see anybody from BW "crushing" the SC2 scene in a crazy way. Also: Claiming a lot of high-ranked players used to play BW is irrelevant, since we are talking about Korea, and a high percentage of people really investing into becoming a pro-gamer played a lot of BW once. My personal opinion is, that if the top 200 BW players would switch over, they probably would be distributed fairly evenly among the top 200 SC2 players. Could be wrong of course, as I said, I just switched scenes a couple of month ago.
I still don't get though why people think "it's a farce" to enjoy good SC2 matches. People enjoyed sprinting competition in ancient Greece before somebody figured out how to run 100m in under 10s. I gladly accept all your arguments as soon as the BW players come over and dominate the scene and show us gameplay we've never seen before. But as it is, I am gladly enjoying the best Starcraft 2-Players on the planet battling it out on GomTV & Co.
On January 10 2012 23:13 Big J wrote:
do you want to marry me... but seriously. This is soooo true!
Both of you will make an excellent couple to be honest , besides that hello fellow counter strike fan , nice seeing your opinion on the subject at hand , However the op's "It's a farce " it's not meant to criticised sc2 matches it self instead it was merely saying that bw players has the upper hand in sc2 rather than beating down sc2 capability of competition and entertainment for it's viewers .
I implore you to read the article again , seriously ...
|
On January 10 2012 23:09 Fadobo wrote:
As somebody who just joined the SC2 scene recently, these comments are immensely amusing to me. I followed the Counterstrike-scene more closely before and they had a very similar phenomenon with CS:Source. Old players claimed it requires less skill and thus is uninteresting, new players claimed it's a different game and the old players underestimate the difficulty (and thus would not be as successful as they say if they'd switch over). In the end: More people are still playing the old CS while eSports-viewers seem to prefer Source which slowly took the spotlight in tournaments and leagues. (Not saying this will happen the same way for SC).
The whole argument is as cute as it is ridiculous in my opinion. Of course BW-Pros have an advantage playing a similar RTS-game for years, of course sc2 is a different game requiring a hard training schedule to master, of course champions of SC1 can be very successful in SC2 if they use their talent and training mentality. So far though, I certainly didn't see anybody from BW "crushing" the SC2 scene in a crazy way. Also: Claiming a lot of high-ranked players used to play BW is irrelevant, since we are talking about Korea, and a high percentage of people really investing into becoming a pro-gamer played a lot of BW once. My personal opinion is, that if the top 200 BW players would switch over, they probably would be distributed fairly evenly among the top 200 SC2 players. Could be wrong of course, as I said, I just switched scenes a couple of month ago.
I still don't get though why people think "it's a farce" to enjoy good SC2 matches. People enjoyed sprinting competition in ancient Greece before somebody figured out how to run 100m in under 10s. I gladly accept all your arguments as soon as the BW players come over and dominate the scene and show us gameplay we've never seen before. But as it is, I am gladly enjoying the best Starcraft 2-Players on the planet battling it out on GomTV & Co.
First off, welcome to the SC2 community and TL. Cool to hear some insight from experience in the CS scene. I personally think that we still are jumping too quickly to conclusions off of the one day performance of one player. Let's increase the sample size by looking at how another BW pro, Hyun performs in Code A. As a scientist would say, gather more data, and hold off for a while on the conclusions. After all it is hard to see a trend with just a few data points.
|
On January 10 2012 23:20 Subversive wrote:
Ultimately too often this thread feels like a battle between the games, when really, the top pros in each game don't belong to one game or another. A lot of them will likely play both games at some stage :p. People like Flash, Jaedong, MVP, Nestea belong to everyone.
When someone calls the sport you watch and love a 'farce', it's easy to get indignant. 
|
On January 10 2012 23:25 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 23:09 Fadobo wrote:
As somebody who just joined the SC2 scene recently, these comments are immensely amusing to me. I followed the Counterstrike-scene more closely before and they had a very similar phenomenon with CS:Source. Old players claimed it requires less skill and thus is uninteresting, new players claimed it's a different game and the old players underestimate the difficulty (and thus would not be as successful as they say if they'd switch over). In the end: More people are still playing the old CS while eSports-viewers seem to prefer Source which slowly took the spotlight in tournaments and leagues. (Not saying this will happen the same way for SC).
The whole argument is as cute as it is ridiculous in my opinion. Of course BW-Pros have an advantage playing a similar RTS-game for years, of course sc2 is a different game requiring a hard training schedule to master, of course champions of SC1 can be very successful in SC2 if they use their talent and training mentality. So far though, I certainly didn't see anybody from BW "crushing" the SC2 scene in a crazy way. Also: Claiming a lot of high-ranked players used to play BW is irrelevant, since we are talking about Korea, and a high percentage of people really investing into becoming a pro-gamer played a lot of BW once. My personal opinion is, that if the top 200 BW players would switch over, they probably would be distributed fairly evenly among the top 200 SC2 players. Could be wrong of course, as I said, I just switched scenes a couple of month ago.
I still don't get though why people think "it's a farce" to enjoy good SC2 matches. People enjoyed sprinting competition in ancient Greece before somebody figured out how to run 100m in under 10s. I gladly accept all your arguments as soon as the BW players come over and dominate the scene and show us gameplay we've never seen before. But as it is, I am gladly enjoying the best Starcraft 2-Players on the planet battling it out on GomTV & Co. First off, welcome to the SC2 community and TL. Cool to hear some insight from experience in the CS scene. I personally think that we still are jumping too quickly to conclusions off of the one day performance of one player. Let's increase the sample size by looking at how another BW pro, Hyun performs in Code A. As a scientist would say, gather more data, and hold off for a while on the conclusions. After all it is hard to see a trend with just a few data points.
Include Nesta, MVP and MC then please. And all the other pros like Sair (Supernova) that are mentioned in the OP.
|
On January 10 2012 23:15 Tobberoth wrote:
I think it's important to also note that this article is old now and is just being needlessly bumped. It was written in may 2011, that's more than half a year ago. The scene has changed a lot since then and there's definitely a more serious feel now to the pros. When this article was written, the memory of Fruitdealer being really strong without practicing seriously was still fresh in memory, now, the same thing seems quite ridiculous, at least in the korean scene. Players ARE investing a lot of time to be good. While it's different from BW, I'd say that the time since this article was written has proven that the seriousness of training regimen etc is raised automatically with time as players get better. If Flash or Jaedong switched over, yeah, they would probably become top code S very quickly. But as they did, other players would be forced to work harder to stay competitive, and it wouldn't be such an obvious domination.
I disagree. Most of his points still hold true. Starcraft fans are still anxiously awaiting the most prominent BW stars switch to sc2. ForGG made the switch with almost immediate results. I still feel like even the most worshipped stars underperform and collect wins even when playing sloppy.
|
On January 10 2012 23:30 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 23:25 Bagration wrote:On January 10 2012 23:09 Fadobo wrote:
As somebody who just joined the SC2 scene recently, these comments are immensely amusing to me. I followed the Counterstrike-scene more closely before and they had a very similar phenomenon with CS:Source. Old players claimed it requires less skill and thus is uninteresting, new players claimed it's a different game and the old players underestimate the difficulty (and thus would not be as successful as they say if they'd switch over). In the end: More people are still playing the old CS while eSports-viewers seem to prefer Source which slowly took the spotlight in tournaments and leagues. (Not saying this will happen the same way for SC).
The whole argument is as cute as it is ridiculous in my opinion. Of course BW-Pros have an advantage playing a similar RTS-game for years, of course sc2 is a different game requiring a hard training schedule to master, of course champions of SC1 can be very successful in SC2 if they use their talent and training mentality. So far though, I certainly didn't see anybody from BW "crushing" the SC2 scene in a crazy way. Also: Claiming a lot of high-ranked players used to play BW is irrelevant, since we are talking about Korea, and a high percentage of people really investing into becoming a pro-gamer played a lot of BW once. My personal opinion is, that if the top 200 BW players would switch over, they probably would be distributed fairly evenly among the top 200 SC2 players. Could be wrong of course, as I said, I just switched scenes a couple of month ago.
I still don't get though why people think "it's a farce" to enjoy good SC2 matches. People enjoyed sprinting competition in ancient Greece before somebody figured out how to run 100m in under 10s. I gladly accept all your arguments as soon as the BW players come over and dominate the scene and show us gameplay we've never seen before. But as it is, I am gladly enjoying the best Starcraft 2-Players on the planet battling it out on GomTV & Co. First off, welcome to the SC2 community and TL. Cool to hear some insight from experience in the CS scene. I personally think that we still are jumping too quickly to conclusions off of the one day performance of one player. Let's increase the sample size by looking at how another BW pro, Hyun performs in Code A. As a scientist would say, gather more data, and hold off for a while on the conclusions. After all it is hard to see a trend with just a few data points. Include Nesta, MVP and MC then please. And all the other pros like Sair (Supernova) that are mentioned in the OP.
Except the entire point of the OP is how bad Nestea and MC were at BW, so if people better than them at BW switched, they would be better than them at SC2. Now, someone who was better than them at BW has switched, has had triple the 3 month latency period required by the OP, and yet is not dominating. I don't get why BW people keep trying to pretend like all the OP was saying was that "RTS experience is useful" or something like that. The OP went way way further than that and you know it.
|
On January 10 2012 23:37 FunnyPicture wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 23:15 Tobberoth wrote:
I think it's important to also note that this article is old now and is just being needlessly bumped. It was written in may 2011, that's more than half a year ago. The scene has changed a lot since then and there's definitely a more serious feel now to the pros. When this article was written, the memory of Fruitdealer being really strong without practicing seriously was still fresh in memory, now, the same thing seems quite ridiculous, at least in the korean scene. Players ARE investing a lot of time to be good. While it's different from BW, I'd say that the time since this article was written has proven that the seriousness of training regimen etc is raised automatically with time as players get better. If Flash or Jaedong switched over, yeah, they would probably become top code S very quickly. But as they did, other players would be forced to work harder to stay competitive, and it wouldn't be such an obvious domination. I disagree. Most of his points still hold true. Starcraft fans are still anxiously awaiting the most prominent BW stars switch to sc2. ForGG made the switch with almost immediate results. I still feel like even the most worshipped stars underperform and collect wins even when playing sloppy.
+ Show Spoiler + Not that I think BW pros wont dominate but ForGG just got knocked back down to code a
|
On January 10 2012 23:23 Sawamura wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 23:09 Fadobo wrote:
As somebody who just joined the SC2 scene recently, these comments are immensely amusing to me. I followed the Counterstrike-scene more closely before and they had a very similar phenomenon with CS:Source. Old players claimed it requires less skill and thus is uninteresting, new players claimed it's a different game and the old players underestimate the difficulty (and thus would not be as successful as they say if they'd switch over). In the end: More people are still playing the old CS while eSports-viewers seem to prefer Source which slowly took the spotlight in tournaments and leagues. (Not saying this will happen the same way for SC).
The whole argument is as cute as it is ridiculous in my opinion. Of course BW-Pros have an advantage playing a similar RTS-game for years, of course sc2 is a different game requiring a hard training schedule to master, of course champions of SC1 can be very successful in SC2 if they use their talent and training mentality. So far though, I certainly didn't see anybody from BW "crushing" the SC2 scene in a crazy way. Also: Claiming a lot of high-ranked players used to play BW is irrelevant, since we are talking about Korea, and a high percentage of people really investing into becoming a pro-gamer played a lot of BW once. My personal opinion is, that if the top 200 BW players would switch over, they probably would be distributed fairly evenly among the top 200 SC2 players. Could be wrong of course, as I said, I just switched scenes a couple of month ago.
I still don't get though why people think "it's a farce" to enjoy good SC2 matches. People enjoyed sprinting competition in ancient Greece before somebody figured out how to run 100m in under 10s. I gladly accept all your arguments as soon as the BW players come over and dominate the scene and show us gameplay we've never seen before. But as it is, I am gladly enjoying the best Starcraft 2-Players on the planet battling it out on GomTV & Co. Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 23:13 Big J wrote:
do you want to marry me... but seriously. This is soooo true! Both of you will make an excellent couple to be honest , besides that hello fellow counter strike fan , nice seeing your opinion on the subject at hand , However the op's "It's a farce " it's not meant to criticised sc2 matches it self instead it was merely saying that bw players has the upper hand in sc2 rather than beating down sc2 capability of competition and entertainment for it's viewers . I implore you to read the article again , seriously ...
I am sorry for using the "farce" quote from the original article. My critique, if there was any at all, was directed at the angry discussion between two groups of people loving very similar things, going crazy about very isolated events (such as forGG losing/winning a game).
I even agree with the article to some extend, with a lot of "potential" being there. To use the sprint-example again. If 100m was very popular and suddenly 300m sprint gets huge attention, of course 100m "pros" have the potential of becoming big in this new thing. I just say: Wait and see if that will happen. As long as it doesn't, it makes no sense to discuss a "potential". The only thing I strongly disagree with is the "But isn't high school football in Friday Night Lights really exciting too?"-Quote, as long as nobody else is doing the exact same thing with the exact same rules much better somewhere else.
Except that, thanks everybody for giving me a warm welcome. About the proposal: I'll have to talk this through with my girlfriend I suppose, but I'll consider it.
|
On January 10 2012 23:37 FunnyPicture wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 23:15 Tobberoth wrote:
I think it's important to also note that this article is old now and is just being needlessly bumped. It was written in may 2011, that's more than half a year ago. The scene has changed a lot since then and there's definitely a more serious feel now to the pros. When this article was written, the memory of Fruitdealer being really strong without practicing seriously was still fresh in memory, now, the same thing seems quite ridiculous, at least in the korean scene. Players ARE investing a lot of time to be good. While it's different from BW, I'd say that the time since this article was written has proven that the seriousness of training regimen etc is raised automatically with time as players get better. If Flash or Jaedong switched over, yeah, they would probably become top code S very quickly. But as they did, other players would be forced to work harder to stay competitive, and it wouldn't be such an obvious domination. I disagree. Most of his points still hold true. Starcraft fans are still anxiously awaiting the most prominent BW stars switch to sc2. ForGG made the switch with almost immediate results. I still feel like even the most worshipped stars underperform and collect wins even when playing sloppy.
He has been playing it for a really long time. ForGG was awesome at BW, played SC2 for many months, and was able to get to Code S. Yeah, it's impressive. Then again, he didn't dominate when Leenoch handed him his butt. I doubt ForGG would claim Code S is a farce after his games.
|
One more thing, we could use the current GSL ranking top 10. It's not the best ranking, but it will do. 7 BW progamers, 3 others.
1 Mvp BW
2 NesTea BW
3 MC BW
4 MMA BW
5 Polt ---
6 MKP BW
7 July BW
8 TOP ---
9 NaDa BW
10 Jjakji ---
|
On January 10 2012 22:59 BoxingKangaroo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:53 Linwelin wrote:On January 10 2012 22:52 BoxingKangaroo wrote:On January 10 2012 22:44 deadmau wrote:On January 10 2012 22:25 Hot_Bid wrote:On January 10 2012 22:20 Longshank wrote:On January 10 2012 22:11 Kyuki wrote:
Ugh, so tired of all the people with practically no BW experience coming here with ForGG as a argument as to why this thread is trash... Also one series... When he left the BW scene he was at best mediocre, sadly. After his MSL victory in 08, he was short of 50% winrate, and in the end he was closer to 40% winrate and didnt make anything happen in the individual leagues either. Sure, still one of the "best" at the time of the switch, but still not great by any means. Timing attacks was his game, and alot of his games was very all-in oriented.
I'm not saying he's a bad player, he's a great player and I'm sure he'll do great in code A and climb on no doubt, but using him as a argument is stupid. He's just one of many players that will eventually switch and those that are at the highest level of broodwar right now Will smash this game undoubtly.
People still forget that almost all of the top players in Code S are former BW players.. The point is that when the BETTER BW players switch over, it wont take that long before there will be a major swing in the top besides a few players that are really strong.
T_T Actually no, the point of this article, as stated by the OP himself, is that a player like ForGG and some hundred players worse than him would dominate the SC2 scene within months of switching. Well after 11 months of practice, ForGG proved that this was inaccurate. The point was never that the great BW pros would do great and probably dominate, claiming that now is a cowardly cop out. Actually that's exactly what I said in the article if you read my part. I believe that the top S class guys like Leta, Sea, Fantasy, Stork etc will be among the best SC2 players if they switch, but it is not guaranteed. However, if any of Jaedong or Flash do, they WILL be the best. Relephant quote: Maybe Leta or Sea or Best or Zero won't come into SC2 and be ultra-successful if they switch. But Jaedong and Flash? They are outliers. They do not conform to the normal rules, and everyone who has followed Brood War knows that if they switch, it's not a question of if they will dominate and win, but when.
The "different game" argument applies to 99.9% of progamers, but not for special players like Jaedong and Flash. The game doesn't matter. Whether it's BW or SC2 or checkers or minesweeper, certain players are so good they will always be at the top. ForGG, despite all the fun hype we've been giving him, is not even on the level of Sea Kal Calm etc. What Hot_Bid claims is obvious, just bunch of SC2-only generation of players bitching in here atm. Yeah. I believe that the top S class guys like Leta, Sea, Fantasy, Stork etc will be among the best SC2 players if they switch, but it is not guaranteed. So they'll do good... except they might not. That's not a prediction at all. However, if any of Jaedong or Flash do, they WILL be the best. Now there's a prediction. Except it only applies to the top 2 players in the world. The OP cast a much wider net though, I am saying that there are 300 current pros and semi-pros that have the potential to come in and dominate SC2 at any moment, with a latency of a few months from the day they switch. 300 players that can be instantly better at SC2 than the current players. I guess fOrGG was 301? Potential is the keyword And is a huge copout in my opinion because it doesn't predict anything. Any BW pro that comes to SC2 and fails and you can say 'well he didn't live up to his potential'. Any BW pro that comes and dominates you can point to and say 'see I was right!'. Hypothesis can't be disproven.
So in your opinion, ForGG getting to this point was a "failure"?
... may I remind you that this is GSL Code S Ro32? AKA the top 32 players in the world?
|
It's good to see that Code S is still as unpredictable as ever, if not more unpredictable than ever.
|
illsick
United States1770 Posts
On January 10 2012 23:25 Bagration wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 23:09 Fadobo wrote:
As somebody who just joined the SC2 scene recently, these comments are immensely amusing to me. I followed the Counterstrike-scene more closely before and they had a very similar phenomenon with CS:Source. Old players claimed it requires less skill and thus is uninteresting, new players claimed it's a different game and the old players underestimate the difficulty (and thus would not be as successful as they say if they'd switch over). In the end: More people are still playing the old CS while eSports-viewers seem to prefer Source which slowly took the spotlight in tournaments and leagues. (Not saying this will happen the same way for SC).
The whole argument is as cute as it is ridiculous in my opinion. Of course BW-Pros have an advantage playing a similar RTS-game for years, of course sc2 is a different game requiring a hard training schedule to master, of course champions of SC1 can be very successful in SC2 if they use their talent and training mentality. So far though, I certainly didn't see anybody from BW "crushing" the SC2 scene in a crazy way. Also: Claiming a lot of high-ranked players used to play BW is irrelevant, since we are talking about Korea, and a high percentage of people really investing into becoming a pro-gamer played a lot of BW once. My personal opinion is, that if the top 200 BW players would switch over, they probably would be distributed fairly evenly among the top 200 SC2 players. Could be wrong of course, as I said, I just switched scenes a couple of month ago.
I still don't get though why people think "it's a farce" to enjoy good SC2 matches. People enjoyed sprinting competition in ancient Greece before somebody figured out how to run 100m in under 10s. I gladly accept all your arguments as soon as the BW players come over and dominate the scene and show us gameplay we've never seen before. But as it is, I am gladly enjoying the best Starcraft 2-Players on the planet battling it out on GomTV & Co. First off, welcome to the SC2 community and TL. Cool to hear some insight from experience in the CS scene. I personally think that we still are jumping too quickly to conclusions off of the one day performance of one player. Let's increase the sample size by looking at how another BW pro, Hyun performs in Code A. As a scientist would say, gather more data, and hold off for a while on the conclusions. After all it is hard to see a trend with just a few data points.
His insight of the counter-strike scene is so wrong lol
first of all, the 1.6 players/teams that switched over to source (just for the CGS), immediately were top teams when they switched (NA scene). In Europe, none of the big teams switched to source because the competition and money was in 1.6 still. Perhaps you can say Dignitas, but they weren't a top team 1.6; but when they went to source they were a top team in that. Also, source never took the spotlight in tournaments and "esports viewers" (whatever that means) to this day.
He did not follow the source/1.6 scene at all....
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
