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On January 11 2012 00:41 RenSC2 wrote:So, anybody up for the new elephant in the room? How about: BW competition is quickly becoming a farce because most of the young Korean talent is now playing SC2. Guys like Leenock (Jjakji, MMA, etc) would be rising through the ranks of BW, but instead he's slapping down former MSL champions in SC2. BW is faced with a dearth of young talent while the older players keep pretending they're the best in the world. I think an article on that topic would be on-par with the OP here. Gogo TL staff, get it done!  <---closest I could find to a trollface in the smileys.
People like you are so sad... He wrote that the competition was a joke in May. And it was, even compared to the games of today. Tasteless and Artosis make that point all the time. You're only here acting like a fool because you feel sc2 was insulted by an elitist. Get over it.
Your comment about bw competition is so dumb it hurts.
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On January 11 2012 00:41 RenSC2 wrote:So, anybody up for the new elephant in the room? How about: BW competition is quickly becoming a farce because most of the young Korean talent is now playing SC2. Guys like Leenock (Jjakji, MMA, etc) would be rising through the ranks of BW, but instead he's slapping down former MSL champions in SC2. BW is faced with a dearth of young talent while the older players keep pretending they're the best in the world. I think an article on that topic would be on-par with the OP here. Gogo TL staff, get it done! <---closest I could find to a trollface in the smileys.
I know you tried to troll, but there is actually a legitimate argument in there.
As time passes, the young talent that enters SC2 that would've entered BW had SC2 not existed is an opportunity cost weakening of the BW scene. I've hardly seen this mentioned, but assume BW and SC2 stay separate for awhile.
If the best new SC2 players are younger talents without previous progamer experience, let's just randomly say Leenock, Maru, and Creator definitively become the zerg, terran, and protoss in a year from now, then it's less likely for top BW to overtake those players, then if Nestea, MVP, and MC are the respective best.
Understanding this is a basic exercise in logic.
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Polt - WC3; Top and Jjakji just relatively young.
On January 11 2012 00:17 aderum wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 00:14 bbm wrote:On January 11 2012 00:00 figq wrote:One more thing, we could use the current GSL ranking top 10. It's not the best ranking, but it will do. 7 BW progamers, 3 others. 1 Mvp BW
2 NesTea BW
3 MC BW
4 MMA BW
5 Polt ---
6 MKP BW
7 July BW
8 TOP ---
9 NaDa BW
10 Jjakji --- Curious to see what background jjakji, top, and polt have. WC3? Anything? What does that list has to do with this thread? These are the players that the thread called a farce and that would be gone when BW came. Maybe you don't see the argument. It is that players with professional BW background dominate the scene even now (many responses in this thread actually doubted that). So, the elephant has been here all the time, to stay.
Of course, the leap from there to conclude that the superior BW players will be able to dominate the SC2 scene, if they also switch, is speculative. But at the very least we know the heroes of our scene (SC2) are mostly second-rate progamers from BW.
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Just wait for Flash and see what happens O_O
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On January 11 2012 00:13 FunnyPicture wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 23:59 Tobberoth wrote:On January 10 2012 23:37 FunnyPicture wrote:On January 10 2012 23:15 Tobberoth wrote:
I think it's important to also note that this article is old now and is just being needlessly bumped. It was written in may 2011, that's more than half a year ago. The scene has changed a lot since then and there's definitely a more serious feel now to the pros. When this article was written, the memory of Fruitdealer being really strong without practicing seriously was still fresh in memory, now, the same thing seems quite ridiculous, at least in the korean scene. Players ARE investing a lot of time to be good. While it's different from BW, I'd say that the time since this article was written has proven that the seriousness of training regimen etc is raised automatically with time as players get better. If Flash or Jaedong switched over, yeah, they would probably become top code S very quickly. But as they did, other players would be forced to work harder to stay competitive, and it wouldn't be such an obvious domination. I disagree. Most of his points still hold true. Starcraft fans are still anxiously awaiting the most prominent BW stars switch to sc2. ForGG made the switch with almost immediate results. I still feel like even the most worshipped stars underperform and collect wins even when playing sloppy. He has been playing it for a really long time. ForGG was awesome at BW, played SC2 for many months, and was able to get to Code S. Yeah, it's impressive. Then again, he didn't dominate when Leenoch handed him his butt. I doubt ForGG would claim Code S is a farce after his games. Not sure I understand your point.
The point of the OP was that SC2 competition is a farce because BW pros would dominate easily when they switch over. ForGG being thrown out of Code S immediately even after playing for several months prove that it isn't.
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On January 11 2012 00:21 chillswithhippos wrote:
In ForGGs case it was the amount of time it took him to get to code S rather than him actually being in it.
Leenock did beat him pretty convincingly in game two, but game one was pretty close and the manner in which ForGG lost was more game sense and bad decision making than anything else. His mechanics were as good as most Code S players, and as Keone pointed out, the 32 Code S players are some of the best 32 players in the world, so just him being there was impressive enough.
If anything, the way the matches went today support this article. Leenock has been in GSL since long ago, and is a GSL runner-up/MLG champion. ForGG practiced a couple of months and went undefeated in GSL until today, where he gave the arguably best zerg and toss a good run for their money. For a guy who made the switch to SC2 relatively late, his gameplay was damn good, and if he keeps practicing and more like him make the switch then current SC2 progamers are in for a nightmare.
According to the TS's statement, ForGG should have absolutly crushed his competition today. This did not happen.
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really enjoyed the whole piece, but loved the section about "why specfic players do well."
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On January 11 2012 01:04 Zazzles wrote:
Just wait for Flash and see what happens O_O
I think noone is disagreeing that Flash will be really really good at SC2 if he ever goes for it. People are disagreeing with the statement that there are 100+ BW players that could switch at any time and dominate the current players within a few months.
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On January 11 2012 01:25 Logros wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 01:04 Zazzles wrote:
Just wait for Flash and see what happens O_O I think noone is disagreeing that Flash will be really really good at SC2 if he ever goes for it. People are disagreeing with the statement that there are 100+ BW players that could switch at any time and dominate the current players within a few months.
Yes this please. The fact that forGG isnt dominating is a nail in the coffin for this discussion, maybe not the last.. but it definintly didnt help the writer.
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Looking forward to the day when SC1 top pros swtich to sc2. Hopefully before they retire.
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I don't understand why this whole thing needs 221 pages. It seems to me like the points being made on both sides are really obvious... and not that hard to understand. I'm a fan of both BW(played since SC1 - Season 1) and SC2.... it is possible to enjoy and support both games.
But as I see it, basically anyone that has put the time and effort into being great an BW I'd expect to do well really at any RTS game that was relatively similar. Why is it surprising that players that do well in BW would do well in SC2? If we assume that BW players are some of the best RTS players in the world, I'll go ahead and assume they can play any RTS well and won't be surprised when they do.
To me it is no different then looking at the top athletes in the world. Take Jim Brown for example, he could play basically any mainstream sport(and did a lot of them) and dominate. He is a great athlete with a great work ethic, so why should I be surprised that he could be a great football player, a great lacrosse player, and great at track and field? If Kobe Bryant decided to play soccer instead of basketball I'd expect him to have been a great soccer player, or football player. LeBron James, or Randy Moss could have played any sport and dominated. It isn't an insult to those other sports, it is just the fact that they are so athletically superior, and when you combine their work ethic with that they could do anything.
So if you just translate that to eSports, and RTS gamers that we know have amazing critical thinking skills, finger dexterity, and work ethic why wouldn't they be able to dominate pretty much anything similar? I'd think Flash could play basically any video game in the world and be great at it if he wanted.
This whole thing seems dumb to me. To try to make it an insult to SC2 because BW players can switch over fast and do well is just a weird way to make a convoluted argument, just like it is dumb to post here anytime a former BW player loses in SC2. It all just seems very obvious to me that BW players should do well in SC2, and it isn't because SC2 is an easy game it is because the current BW gamers collectively are the best gamers in the world and they should dominate anything they chose to play.
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On January 11 2012 00:53 Subversive wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 00:41 RenSC2 wrote:So, anybody up for the new elephant in the room? How about: BW competition is quickly becoming a farce because most of the young Korean talent is now playing SC2. Guys like Leenock (Jjakji, MMA, etc) would be rising through the ranks of BW, but instead he's slapping down former MSL champions in SC2. BW is faced with a dearth of young talent while the older players keep pretending they're the best in the world. I think an article on that topic would be on-par with the OP here. Gogo TL staff, get it done! <---closest I could find to a trollface in the smileys. People like you are so sad... He wrote that the competition was a joke in May. And it was, even compared to the games of today. Tasteless and Artosis make that point all the time. You're only here acting like a fool because you feel sc2 was insulted by an elitist. Get over it. Your comment about bw competition is so dumb it hurts.
yeah and Tasteless and Artosis make that point by arguing: THE GAME IS NOT FIGUERED OUT, not by arguing: the players suck...
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On January 11 2012 00:57 Sawry wrote:
I know you tried to troll, but there is actually a legitimate argument in there.
As time passes, the young talent that enters SC2 that would've entered BW had SC2 not existed is an opportunity cost weakening of the BW scene. I've hardly seen this mentioned, but assume BW and SC2 stay separate for awhile.
If the best new SC2 players are younger talents without previous progamer experience, let's just randomly say Leenock, Maru, and Creator definitively become the zerg, terran, and protoss in a year from now, then it's less likely for top BW to overtake those players, then if Nestea, MVP, and MC are the respective best.
Understanding this is a basic exercise in logic.
I'm pretty sure that a weakening of the BW scene is going to weaken korean SC2 players. BW is just so much harder to play than SC2. I feel like a player that grows up on BW competition might be a stronger player (definitely a faster player) than one who grows up on SC2.
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I would recommend this article on the making of an expert
http://www.coachingmanagement.nl/The Making of an Expert.pdf
Starcraft 2 is a different game that is not something you can dismiss.
Try comparing f1, f3, rallying, stock car, etc. Would F1 drivers dominate any motor sport they committed to, does that make every other competition a joke?
Not so long ago no one could run the 100m faster than 9.74 then Usain bolt came along and kept breaking the record, it currently sits at 9.58 does that make every competition before he came along a joke?
Pick any game or sport, there are always players that will rise to the top.
people will always try to improve on what has come before thats just life.
I am not quite sure what the point is, what odds would we put on say flash winning every Starcraft 2 tournament he entered? The Original post is talking as if all the Starcraft 2 competitions should just award the top prizes without having a tournament.
I would certainly be interested in seeing those matches, there is no need for blanket statements that basically insults everything that has happened so far.
I would once again recommend reading that article, the essence of which says the only distinguishing feature among top players is the practice they do. Top Brood war players coming over to Sc2 can only be a good thing and improve e-sports as a whole.
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On January 10 2012 22:13 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 22:03 o[twist] wrote:On January 10 2012 22:02 Big J wrote:On January 10 2012 21:55 o[twist] wrote:
aren't the other people in forgg and leenock's group also former bw pros? sair and iron, right? is there really anybody who thinks that flash and bisu, or even like reality and snow, for example, wouldn't be hyped to be better than them if they switched today? yup, because I think if they switched today and played against any Code S player tomorrow, they would just get destroyed. SC2 needs a ton of specific SC2-practice and as long as they don't have that, they will lose. If they "are better" because they will be better after practicing SC2 hardcore... well then we can extend this argument to every person that is not practicing like a pro on the entire world and the Whale in the room would be: "John Anyone is the best Brood War player on this planet... Sadly he doesn't play it." so you think i'd be as hyped as flash if i decided to become an sc2 pro? and you think if i practiced as much as him we would end up at the same strength? Probably hundreds or thousands (or more, seeing how few people actually play games with a competetive mindset) of people in this world have the potential to be better than Flash. but even if it is hundredthousand people, the odds of you being one of them is 100.000 : 7.000.000.000 = 1 : 70.000... well, if we only focus on the people in the "right age" (16-24 statistically... but as young as competetive gaming is I don't think this is quite accurate, but let's just go with this) it should still be around 1:10.000. So I feel kind of safe to tell you not to try to become the next Flash, as most likely you will just throw away a ton of time.
"Probably hundreds or thousands of people in the world have the potential to be better than Flash"
That's the most ludicrous thing I've ever heard. The reason Flash is so good isn't purely because of insane talent; the guy has an immense work-ethic and to take that away from him by saying "meh there are loads of more talented people" is ridiculous.
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On January 11 2012 01:39 FLuE wrote:
I don't understand why this whole thing needs 221 pages. It seems to me like the points being made on both sides are really obvious... and not that hard to understand. I'm a fan of both BW(played since SC1 - Season 1) and SC2.... it is possible to enjoy and support both games.
But as I see it, basically anyone that has put the time and effort into being great an BW I'd expect to do well really at any RTS game that was relatively similar. Why is it surprising that players that do well in BW would do well in SC2? If we assume that BW players are some of the best RTS players in the world, I'll go ahead and assume they can play any RTS well and won't be surprised when they do.
To me it is no different then looking at the top athletes in the world. Take Jim Brown for example, he could play basically any mainstream sport(and did a lot of them) and dominate. He is a great athlete with a great work ethic, so why should I be surprised that he could be a great football player, a great lacrosse player, and great at track and field? If Kobe Bryant decided to play soccer instead of basketball I'd expect him to have been a great soccer player, or football player. LeBron James, or Randy Moss could have played any sport and dominated. It isn't an insult to those other sports, it is just the fact that they are so athletically superior, and when you combine their work ethic with that they could do anything.
So if you just translate that to eSports, and RTS gamers that we know have amazing critical thinking skills, finger dexterity, and work ethic why wouldn't they be able to dominate pretty much anything similar? I'd think Flash could play basically any video game in the world and be great at it if he wanted.
This whole thing seems dumb to me. To try to make it an insult to SC2 because BW players can switch over fast and do well is just a weird way to make a convoluted argument, just like it is dumb to post here anytime a former BW player loses in SC2. It all just seems very obvious to me that BW players should do well in SC2, and it isn't because SC2 is an easy game it is because the current BW gamers collectively are the best gamers in the world and they should dominate anything they chose to play.
Seriously if Michael Jordan played baseball, imagine how great he would've been. After all, he was the Flash of basketball. His work ethic and talent was second to none.
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On January 11 2012 02:01 Sawry wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 01:39 FLuE wrote:
I don't understand why this whole thing needs 221 pages. It seems to me like the points being made on both sides are really obvious... and not that hard to understand. I'm a fan of both BW(played since SC1 - Season 1) and SC2.... it is possible to enjoy and support both games.
But as I see it, basically anyone that has put the time and effort into being great an BW I'd expect to do well really at any RTS game that was relatively similar. Why is it surprising that players that do well in BW would do well in SC2? If we assume that BW players are some of the best RTS players in the world, I'll go ahead and assume they can play any RTS well and won't be surprised when they do.
To me it is no different then looking at the top athletes in the world. Take Jim Brown for example, he could play basically any mainstream sport(and did a lot of them) and dominate. He is a great athlete with a great work ethic, so why should I be surprised that he could be a great football player, a great lacrosse player, and great at track and field? If Kobe Bryant decided to play soccer instead of basketball I'd expect him to have been a great soccer player, or football player. LeBron James, or Randy Moss could have played any sport and dominated. It isn't an insult to those other sports, it is just the fact that they are so athletically superior, and when you combine their work ethic with that they could do anything.
So if you just translate that to eSports, and RTS gamers that we know have amazing critical thinking skills, finger dexterity, and work ethic why wouldn't they be able to dominate pretty much anything similar? I'd think Flash could play basically any video game in the world and be great at it if he wanted.
This whole thing seems dumb to me. To try to make it an insult to SC2 because BW players can switch over fast and do well is just a weird way to make a convoluted argument, just like it is dumb to post here anytime a former BW player loses in SC2. It all just seems very obvious to me that BW players should do well in SC2, and it isn't because SC2 is an easy game it is because the current BW gamers collectively are the best gamers in the world and they should dominate anything they chose to play. Seriously if Michael Jordan played baseball, imagine how great he would've been. After all, he was the Flash of basketball. His work ethic and talent was second to none.
I see SC2/BW more like fencing/kendo than baseball/basketball, where a lot of things translate but not all, and being amazing at one definitely doesn't mean you'll be amazing at the other (but you'll be good at least!). War3's like aikido or something in that comparison, rofl.
Anyways, prepare for Hype Train #2 if Hyun takes even one game off Taeja.
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On January 11 2012 02:01 Sawry wrote:
Seriously if Michael Jordan played baseball, imagine how great he would've been. After all, he was the Flash of basketball. His work ethic and talent was second to none.
hahahahaha i get it
seriously guys though the question has less to do with whether training hard in one game makes you good at another and more to do with the current people playing the games. it's fairly obvious that some of the top sc2 people DID spend years training at bw and did not really make it there.
the "young talent" argument is something different entirely and it'll just be a matter of time. i tend to believe top bw pros when they say that the game is relatively simple but it's never out of the question that a boxer-esque figure will get up and start innovating in a way nobody else has. now this is kind of unlikely since there's already a pro sc2 scene in a way that it took years and someone like boxer to get going with bw, but it's certainly possible.
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On January 11 2012 01:39 FLuE wrote:
To me it is no different then looking at the top athletes in the world. Take Jim Brown for example, he could play basically any mainstream sport(and did a lot of them) and dominate. He is a great athlete with a great work ethic, so why should I be surprised that he could be a great football player, a great lacrosse player, and great at track and field? If Kobe Bryant decided to play soccer instead of basketball I'd expect him to have been a great soccer player, or football player. LeBron James, or Randy Moss could have played any sport and dominated. It isn't an insult to those other sports, it is just the fact that they are so athletically superior, and when you combine their work ethic with that they could do anything.
Can you see those guys do what messi does right now?
It's not about how much work you put into it for the most part, its about talent.
Sure, training is important, but if you lack the talent you will never succeed.
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So much hate going on! But still I'm both sad and happy that fOrGG lost. Sad that he didn't live up to the hype, and happy that I'm sure he will bounce back from this loss.
His mechanics SHOWED in the games he played, primarily Game 1 between Leenock. He lost due to decision making and experience. Frankly, I want him to lose more just so he can gain more experience in handling the SC2 nuances like baneling landmines and to fight the smart AI better to handle infestors better.
From that 1st game lost, his confidence took a major dive as seen in his second game, and I don't think he had as good of a plan for that game 2 against Leenock.
C'mon fOrGG, learn from your losses and sweep code A again!
fOrGG fighting!
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EPT
