|
On July 17 2012 03:00 Azarkon wrote:
Getting supply blocked with Zerg isn't game killing in the same way that it is for Terran and Protoss.
Getting supply blocked with Terran and Protoss -> you miss a production cycle. For Zerg, queens continue spewing larvae while you're supply blocked, and there are benefits to holding onto your larvae instead of committing to drones, units, etc. Yeah, there are downsides: had those been drones, and provided that you were safe, getting supply blocked results in less resources mined. You're also less safe to attacks that are made the moment you become supply blocked, but very few attacks line up that nicely. But the downsides aren't of the same magnitude for Zerg provided that you make a round of additional overlords when it happens.
Macro-wise, not hitting injects and not having enough larvae is a bigger issue by far.
While I am still not too happy with this kidn of constant criticism in a fanclub thread i guess i can't change it. So here is my opinion:
I actually think supply blocks are far worse for zergs. The thing is though that there are differend kinds of zerg supply blocks. For example if you go for the 12 minute max out you will build units in ~30 supply cycles(that is also why you need 5 overlords with the cycle before that) and after each of those cycles you will be supply blocked. There is nothing to change about that and it won't hurt you cause you do not have larva anyways. If on the other hand you forget to build overlords with a cycle that takes you to your supply cap you are facing a true supply block that is far worse than with any other race. The thing is you now need to what until the next larva pops and one or even two larva will not help you that much cause you intend to build 15 roaches(30 supply) with your next round of injects
So you need to wait unitl this roudn pops, then you need to build overlords, and only when those are finished you can continue with your production as planned and unlike other races you don't build army constantly so one very bad supply block can acutally reduce your army size by for example one half at a certain point in the game
so you will not only die to an attack that comes right at that particular moment, but also to an attack that comes a few moments later 
If you watch closely though, you will recognize that stephano actually barely ever has to face such a bad supply block, they are normally the kind of block I described at the beginning, I don't want to say that they are intentional, they are just part of certain zerg strategies(->building supply intensive units(ie roaches) constantly)
While this adresses the supply block depate there are also all kinds of reasons for some other issues mentioned in this thread. The thing is, most of the people here do not have that much sc2 knowledge and have some wrong facts stored in their memory(supply block ->automatically very bad for example). I think it would be better if the attitude would be a little more like "why is this?, is there something i don't know?" instead of "hmm, this is bad! i know it! bad bad bad!"
Of course stephano makes mistakes, for example his spine crawler timings haven't been that great and a macro hatch wouldn't have been a bad idea in some of the games he played at nasl, but he makes far less mistakes than many of you think
|
On July 17 2012 04:48 Kuni wrote:
A slump has far more impact than what Stephano has shown us recently (see IdrA for finding out what slump really means). You can easily lose ZvZs, you can lose to Sase despit it being his weakest matchup. He dominated his group at that MLG, so again .. no point in trying to take that as an argument.
He lost to Mana at DH after 2:0ing Nerchio and killing some Korean before that placing 3rd @ Dreamhack Summer.
Shortly after, he dominated his French WCS and despite the fact that there weren't many known players, he didn't drop a single map.
And then he got to the NASL Finals, facing Hero in the first round. If he had lost vs. Hero, would you have claimed he was in a slump? Hero might be Protoss, but he's still one of the best and it's no shame to lose to him.
Finding flaws is kind of easy. Stephano practises way more than he says in his interviews and some parts of his play are weaker than others, but at the moment those flaws seem to be not that important and the results from the last few months support that.
Look at IdrA ... that's a slump, from hero to zero.
Yes, IdrA is the example of a slump, but with him we're talking about a worst case scenario. From one of the best NA / EU players to not being able to make money from tournaments within the course of a few months. Jinro is another case of that.
There are smaller slumps. For example, Nestea was in a small slump around the time Naniwa got in trouble for making fun of him. He was losing to players people didn't think he was able to lose to before. He dropped out of Code S. His results were mediocre for about a month / two months.
I made the argument that were Stephano to lose badly in the Ro8 of NASL, and then to lose badly again in MLG Summer Arena, then that's two months' worth of disappointing results for the best player in Europe. Were he to combine that with a failure to improve his ZvZ and to switch up his ZvP, then that's enough for me to call the start of a slump, because then I'll know that he hasn't been working to up his game.
But this criteria was not met. He didn't lose in NASL, and he did switch up his ZvP.
That shows he's not in a slump. The argument needed to end there, but obviously the fanboys could not resist gloating and pretending that I said Stephano was already in a slump.
|
On July 17 2012 04:34 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 04:27 Kuni wrote:On July 17 2012 04:19 Azarkon wrote:
Fixed it for you. My opinion looking at the progression of the fanclub is that sooner or later there was going to be a conflict between the fans who don't freak out if he does wrong and are still supportive and the fans who think he needs to sit down and correct his weaknesses. Fixed it for you. Nobody stopped supporting Stephano in this thread. The conflict was over how you evaluate his current form. Whether Stephano goes into a slump, and whether he loses, nobody here thinks that he's lost the talent to be one of the greatest players in SC 2.
You need to learn what a fanboy is. Nobody here is saying Stephano doesn't have flaws to work on. What we are saying is that your prediction that he was slumping was so totally wrong, please forgive us if we don't trust any of your other arguments. I feel most of the things you are saying are pointless nitpicks, or just completely wrong. If these fixes are so easy to you, please show me your NASL championship. Highlighting postives =/= fanboyism. Constructive criticisim is fine but you're simply taking it too far and no one wants to listen anymore.
|
|
|
On July 17 2012 05:20 vRadiatioNv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 04:34 Azarkon wrote:On July 17 2012 04:27 Kuni wrote:On July 17 2012 04:19 Azarkon wrote:
Fixed it for you. My opinion looking at the progression of the fanclub is that sooner or later there was going to be a conflict between the fans who don't freak out if he does wrong and are still supportive and the fans who think he needs to sit down and correct his weaknesses. Fixed it for you. Nobody stopped supporting Stephano in this thread. The conflict was over how you evaluate his current form. Whether Stephano goes into a slump, and whether he loses, nobody here thinks that he's lost the talent to be one of the greatest players in SC 2. You need to learn what a fanboy is. Nobody here is saying Stephano doesn't have flaws to work on. What we are saying is that your prediction that he was slumping was so totally wrong, please forgive us if we don't trust any of your other arguments. I feel most of the things you are saying are pointless nitpicks, or just completely wrong. If these fixes are so easy to you, please show me your NASL championship. Highlighting postives =/= fanboyism. Constructive criticisim is fine but you're simply taking it too far and no one wants to listen anymore.
Read my reply to Kuni.
|
On July 17 2012 05:21 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:20 vRadiatioNv wrote:On July 17 2012 04:34 Azarkon wrote:On July 17 2012 04:27 Kuni wrote:On July 17 2012 04:19 Azarkon wrote:
Fixed it for you. My opinion looking at the progression of the fanclub is that sooner or later there was going to be a conflict between the fans who don't freak out if he does wrong and are still supportive and the fans who think he needs to sit down and correct his weaknesses. Fixed it for you. Nobody stopped supporting Stephano in this thread. The conflict was over how you evaluate his current form. Whether Stephano goes into a slump, and whether he loses, nobody here thinks that he's lost the talent to be one of the greatest players in SC 2. You need to learn what a fanboy is. Nobody here is saying Stephano doesn't have flaws to work on. What we are saying is that your prediction that he was slumping was so totally wrong, please forgive us if we don't trust any of your other arguments. I feel most of the things you are saying are pointless nitpicks, or just completely wrong. If these fixes are so easy to you, please show me your NASL championship. Highlighting postives =/= fanboyism. Constructive criticisim is fine but you're simply taking it too far and no one wants to listen anymore. Read my reply to Kuni.
You didn't respond to half of what I just said. And I find it funny that you are now trying to revive your old argument. No, Stephano is not slumping. No, that was not the preditcion you made. You originally posted some recent game results of Stephano and made the claim that it appeared to be the start of a slump. You never said "the slump could start after NASL." You said it was already starting.
|
On July 17 2012 04:57 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 16:44 Azarkon wrote:On July 16 2012 16:37 FabledIntegral wrote:On July 16 2012 16:03 Azarkon wrote:On July 16 2012 15:47 Benjamin99 wrote:On July 16 2012 15:32 Azarkon wrote:On July 16 2012 15:15 Benjamin99 wrote:On July 16 2012 14:41 Azarkon wrote:On July 16 2012 12:36 NevaN wrote:
@azarkon- Then who do you suggest us to portray the player your opinion is seeing?? You can't demand out from him to produce perfect games man for other players train so much harder than him yet commits more mistake than Stephano. and i assure you, 200% in your game your not that perfect too. Don't litter the thread of your opinion that he is declining for you yourself can simply look at the results.Anyway as someone has said haters gonna hate. Sorry, but it's dumb as hell to say that I was hating on him. People have short memories. Before this NASL started, nobody who had a clue thought that Stephano was going to stomp HerO and MC. This is the information we had available: * Stephano was frustrated with his ZvZ and was losing to players way below his level * He was coming off of two 0-2 losses against Protoss players a tier below the level of HerO and MC PvZ * Stephano had a losing record vs. MC * Stephano had a losing record vs. HerO * MC was preparing his PvZ to face DRG * DRG had said that MC was the best PvZ in the world * HerO was coming off of a 3-1 win against DRG * Stephano said that he hasn't practiced in two weeks, and that his fans 'should not expect much from him' There was not a single rational supporting argument, going into NASL, for why Stephano was going to stomp HerO and MC besides blind faith. He had, at best, 50-50 records against both players in his former prime, and HerO was starting to be the next big thing when it came to PvZ. Everybody knew this and everybody accepted this. Hell, people started bitching about how unfair it was that Stephano had to play in the hardest bracket in NASL while HuK and Ret had easy paths. Turn the fanclub back 10-20 pages and you're going to see tons of people saying that they're worried about Stephano getting far in NASL. I merely made the additional argument that, in the case that he loses to HerO in the Ro8, he won't have enough time to change his play and form before MLG Summer Arena, which is stacked harder than NASL, and that another loss there = he's starting to fall off the map for favorites to win a tournament, which for Stephano is a slump. Obviously, this is no longer a problem for Stephano because he just won NASL, and that win is going to last him a while given who his opponents were. It's going to take another 5-6 months before he needs another big win to keep his best NA / EU player tag around. How he performs in MLG Summer is now irrelevant because in the case he bombs out in the group stages, all people need to do is wave at NASL and say that, well, everybody loses. But saying that people knew Stephano was going to do that well in NASL before yesterday is ridiculous. All the information we had said that he was going to lose, but he managed to pull a miracle. Azarkon thats wrong Stephano did not had a losing record vs Hero they meet 2 times at lans. First time at blizzard cup and now at NASL. They met twice in tournaments. He won 1-0 vs HerO in Blizzard Cup. He lost 1-2 to HerO in EG Masters. He lost 0-5 to HerO in practice and has said that he fears HerO's style of PvZ. That to me tips the scale in HerO's favor, and HerO's win vs. DRG tips it further.
Also the last 2 times MC and Stephano have meet its been 1-1 so hardly a losing record.
Yes, but that's the last two times they met. His overall record vs. MC was negative. I think it's positive now, but I have to check.
And the only reason why he lost to Mana and Sase was becuase of metagame. Stephano had been traveling allmost a month and simply didnt had time to keep up. We saw the exact same build from Hero in game 3 and Stephano just crushed it. Matter infact you wrong allmost in every account. The last 2 months has been some of the best we have ever seen from Stephano. I simply dont understand where you comming from
He hasn't stopped traveling. Two and a half weeks ago he was in Sweden. Last week he was in Paris. After Paris, he went to Canada. Just a week ago he was saying that his lodging situation was very unstable. I don't understand why you think 'Stephano lost because he was traveling and didn't have time to keep up,' given that his wins and losses both happened during periods when he's traveling a lot.
plz for the love of god tell me how he is slumping with that insane record the last 2months??
I didn't say he is slumping with that record. I said that in the case that he loses to HerO, and then loses again in MLG Summer Arena, then that portends a slump. He didn't lose in NASL, so he's not in a slump. But one of the things that has portended slumps in the past for world class players is when they begin to lose badly to NA / EU players. Stephano started doing that - he lost to SaSe, he lost to MaNa, he lost to Cytoplasm, he lost to Ziktomini, and he lost to Slivko all within the span of a month. He had great wins in the last two months, too, but the losses were recent, while the wins were further away. Actually it says more about how competetive the EU scene has become. Funny thing is Stephano record is actually better vs the koreans then it is vs the EU players.I just think you nitpicking Azarkon when i look at the last 2 month I see one of the most impressive win ratio and tournament results I ever seen from Stephano Funny thing is, I'm starting to agree with that for tournaments outside of Korea. DH was won by an EU player, HSC was won by an EU player, and NASL was won by an EU player. MLG Summer is still going to be hard, because it's stacked with top Koreans, but the gap is narrowing. The EU scene hasn't had successes of this magnitude for over a year. But with regard to your second comment, I think we're looking at different time periods. It's in the recent month and a half that I started feeling worried about Stephano's play. It started in GD Studio Arena when he lost to Bomber, and carried over to MLG Spring Championship when he lost to SaSe, and then DH when he lost against MaNa, and then to his rather terrible online performances in SC2SL and TSL 4 Quals. I know I had nothing but praise during Red Bull LAN, where he lost narrowly to MC and stomped Squirtle and Parting. That was a high mark of his career, exceeded only by this win in NASL. How are you saying he looked weak at all at MLG? Dropping at the near end of the tournament vs SaSe, a foreigner that doesn't even reside in EU, but KR? Really? That's like saying MVP is slumping if he gets 4th place in a tournament. Why? Because SaSe's PvZ was his weakest match up - and he had a terrible record vs. Stephano before going into that match. SaSe has improved a lot in recent months, but still, his play in those games was not exceptional - he executed a basic, well known two base all-in, and Stephano didn't lose to them twice, he lost to them four times in two separate tournaments, back to back. SaSe alone wasn't, however, worrying. SaSe + Mana - who was 1-9 vs. Stephano in the last five months - using the same build became worrying when you start thinking about the level of SaSe and Mana vs. the level of HerO and MC. These used to be walkover opponents for Stephano. Still highly irrelevant when SaSe has been in Korea. He lost near the final rounds of MLG. How you can discount that is beyond me. It's not like he got knocked out at the beginning - he went through the championship bracket, and finally got knocked out by allins. It's like you expect such a calibre player, after being allined multiple times, to never fall to them. Once again, I think it's absolutely ridiculous you're using such a ridiculously small sample size. And really, MaNa? He's considered one of THE top Protoss players in EU.
Were you there when he lost?
Everybody thought that SaSe and MaNa were walkovers for Stephano, because he had excellent records vs. them and they were not known for their great PvZ. People were already talking about Stephano vs. MKP rematch and Stephano winning DH by the time he met them.
Then the games themselves. Had SaSe and MaNa showed superb PvZ, that's a different matter. But all they did were two base all-ins - variants of the Grubby two base all-in that Stephano had crushed dozens of times before.
An upset happens for one of two causes. The first is the upsetting player playing way above his level. The second is the upset player playing way below his level. At times it's both.
Stephano played below his level against SaSe and MaNa. That's why those games matter.
|
On July 17 2012 05:21 Nerchio wrote:
Stephano. Such a boss.
haha you're a boss too ^^
|
On July 17 2012 05:27 vRadiatioNv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:21 Azarkon wrote:On July 17 2012 05:20 vRadiatioNv wrote:On July 17 2012 04:34 Azarkon wrote:On July 17 2012 04:27 Kuni wrote:On July 17 2012 04:19 Azarkon wrote:
Fixed it for you. My opinion looking at the progression of the fanclub is that sooner or later there was going to be a conflict between the fans who don't freak out if he does wrong and are still supportive and the fans who think he needs to sit down and correct his weaknesses. Fixed it for you. Nobody stopped supporting Stephano in this thread. The conflict was over how you evaluate his current form. Whether Stephano goes into a slump, and whether he loses, nobody here thinks that he's lost the talent to be one of the greatest players in SC 2. You need to learn what a fanboy is. Nobody here is saying Stephano doesn't have flaws to work on. What we are saying is that your prediction that he was slumping was so totally wrong, please forgive us if we don't trust any of your other arguments. I feel most of the things you are saying are pointless nitpicks, or just completely wrong. If these fixes are so easy to you, please show me your NASL championship. Highlighting postives =/= fanboyism. Constructive criticisim is fine but you're simply taking it too far and no one wants to listen anymore. Read my reply to Kuni. You didn't respond to half of what I just said. And I find it funny that you are now trying to revive your old argument. No, Stephano is not slumping. No, that was not the preditcion you made. You originally posted some recent game results of Stephano and made the claim that it appeared to be the start of a slump. You never said "the slump could start after NASL." You said it was already starting.
Here's my first post on this topic:
On July 12 2012 02:54 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 02:41 a3den wrote:On July 12 2012 01:58 Khonsou wrote:
Well, I hope he gets his sh*t together because he didn't look scary at all the last couple of time his games were shown. I agree, for the first time in a long time, I feel like he's gonna get bodied at NASL & MLG Summer. Too much travel takes its toll, and I know he says he doesn't need much practice to be good, but that's too little right now. Fortunately, Korea is around the corner so the timing isn't that bad. Yeah, HerO is a huge challenge for him in great form, and he isn't in great form. I said that one day, the music is going to end for Stephano - is this going to be that day?
Here is my second post, where I explain what I'm talking about:
With that out of the way, I am not saying that if Stephano loses to HerO his career is over. Rather, I am musing on whether this is going to be the beginning of a slump for Stephano. His refusal to practice ZvZ - and inability to practice hard towards addressing his weaknesses - was bound to bite him, and I have been observing declines in his play from about 2-3 months prior. Presently speaking, I don't think he's ready for HerO, and failing in the first round of NASL is not going to do well for his confidence. Furthermore, with no time in between NASL finals, IEM quals, and MLG Summer Arena, he won't have an opportunity to regain his form after it.
It has all the setup of an incoming slump period, and with it the end of his reputation of being the best NA / EU player. That is what I'm talking about when I say that the music is ending - Stephano gets a pass in a lot of areas because he is the best NA / EU player. He is able to, for example, forfeit tournaments repeatedly without losing his sponsorship, and without tournament organizers banning him from their events. When he streams, he is able to get >9000 viewers. All of this is because he is the best, and that is the reputation he has to maintain for the music and the parties to continue.
Where do you get from that to 'he's already in a slump?' Everything I said was contingent on him losing to HerO and then not improving on that loss in MLG. The entire argument was a hypothetical.
|
Do you know that in every threads which talking about NASL and co i see "Stephano so good", "the picture with stephano is so funny", lot of people are happy etc... I come here and i just see mass debates on stephano skill or GSL.
...........
So, when you will finish your tempest in a glass of water, look at this cool pic:
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/silverfire/NASLS3/Day2/506_03541_t.jpg)
Like an other guy said: "To the bank horseman, to the bankl!"
|
On July 17 2012 05:35 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:27 vRadiatioNv wrote:On July 17 2012 05:21 Azarkon wrote:On July 17 2012 05:20 vRadiatioNv wrote:On July 17 2012 04:34 Azarkon wrote:On July 17 2012 04:27 Kuni wrote:On July 17 2012 04:19 Azarkon wrote:
Fixed it for you. My opinion looking at the progression of the fanclub is that sooner or later there was going to be a conflict between the fans who don't freak out if he does wrong and are still supportive and the fans who think he needs to sit down and correct his weaknesses. Fixed it for you. Nobody stopped supporting Stephano in this thread. The conflict was over how you evaluate his current form. Whether Stephano goes into a slump, and whether he loses, nobody here thinks that he's lost the talent to be one of the greatest players in SC 2. You need to learn what a fanboy is. Nobody here is saying Stephano doesn't have flaws to work on. What we are saying is that your prediction that he was slumping was so totally wrong, please forgive us if we don't trust any of your other arguments. I feel most of the things you are saying are pointless nitpicks, or just completely wrong. If these fixes are so easy to you, please show me your NASL championship. Highlighting postives =/= fanboyism. Constructive criticisim is fine but you're simply taking it too far and no one wants to listen anymore. Read my reply to Kuni. You didn't respond to half of what I just said. And I find it funny that you are now trying to revive your old argument. No, Stephano is not slumping. No, that was not the preditcion you made. You originally posted some recent game results of Stephano and made the claim that it appeared to be the start of a slump. You never said "the slump could start after NASL." You said it was already starting. Here's my first post on this topic: Show nested quote +On July 12 2012 02:54 Azarkon wrote:On July 12 2012 02:41 a3den wrote:On July 12 2012 01:58 Khonsou wrote:
Well, I hope he gets his sh*t together because he didn't look scary at all the last couple of time his games were shown. I agree, for the first time in a long time, I feel like he's gonna get bodied at NASL & MLG Summer. Too much travel takes its toll, and I know he says he doesn't need much practice to be good, but that's too little right now. Fortunately, Korea is around the corner so the timing isn't that bad. Yeah, HerO is a huge challenge for him in great form, and he isn't in great form. I said that one day, the music is going to end for Stephano - is this going to be that day? Here is my second post, where I explain what I'm talking about: Show nested quote +
With that out of the way, I am not saying that if Stephano loses to HerO his career is over. Rather, I am musing on whether this is going to be the beginning of a slump for Stephano. His refusal to practice ZvZ - and inability to practice hard towards addressing his weaknesses - was bound to bite him, and I have been observing declines in his play from about 2-3 months prior. Presently speaking, I don't think he's ready for HerO, and failing in the first round of NASL is not going to do well for his confidence. Furthermore, with no time in between NASL finals, IEM quals, and MLG Summer Arena, he won't have an opportunity to regain his form after it.
It has all the setup of an incoming slump period, and with it the end of his reputation of being the best NA / EU player. That is what I'm talking about when I say that the music is ending - Stephano gets a pass in a lot of areas because he is the best NA / EU player. He is able to, for example, forfeit tournaments repeatedly without losing his sponsorship, and without tournament organizers banning him from their events. When he streams, he is able to get >9000 viewers. All of this is because he is the best, and that is the reputation he has to maintain for the music and the parties to continue.
Where do you get from that to 'he's already in a slump?' Everything I said was contingent on him losing to HerO and then not improving on that loss in MLG. The entire argument was a hypothetical.
Ok, I'm sorry, I didn't remember all of those posts. But I would like to point out that you still haven't addressed half of what I said. And now that you say that "The entire argument was a hypothetical," I must ask, why did you even bother posting it? What was the purpose? Besides the fact that it didn't even come close to happening, I don't see what you hoped to accomplish by bringing it up.
|
On July 17 2012 05:14 KainiT wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 03:00 Azarkon wrote:
Getting supply blocked with Zerg isn't game killing in the same way that it is for Terran and Protoss.
Getting supply blocked with Terran and Protoss -> you miss a production cycle. For Zerg, queens continue spewing larvae while you're supply blocked, and there are benefits to holding onto your larvae instead of committing to drones, units, etc. Yeah, there are downsides: had those been drones, and provided that you were safe, getting supply blocked results in less resources mined. You're also less safe to attacks that are made the moment you become supply blocked, but very few attacks line up that nicely. But the downsides aren't of the same magnitude for Zerg provided that you make a round of additional overlords when it happens.
Macro-wise, not hitting injects and not having enough larvae is a bigger issue by far. While I am still not too happy with this kidn of constant criticism in a fanclub thread i guess i can't change it. So here is my opinion: I actually think supply blocks are far worse for zergs. The thing is though that there are differend kinds of zerg supply blocks. For example if you go for the 12 minute max out you will build units in ~30 supply cycles(that is also why you need 5 overlords with the cycle before that) and after each of those cycles you will be supply blocked. There is nothing to change about that and it won't hurt you cause you do not have larva anyways. If on the other hand you forget to build overlords with a cycle that takes you to your supply cap you are facing a true supply block that is far worse than with any other race. The thing is you now need to what until the next larva pops and one or even two larva will not help you that much cause you intend to build 15 roaches(30 supply) with your next round of injects So you need to wait unitl this roudn pops, then you need to build overlords, and only when those are finished you can continue with your production as planned and unlike other races you don't build army constantly so one very bad supply block can acutally reduce your army size by for example one half at a certain point in the game so you will not only die to an attack that comes right at that particular moment, but also to an attack that comes a few moments later If you watch closely though, you will recognize that stephano actually barely ever has to face such a bad supply block, they are normally the kind of block I described at the beginning, I don't want to say that they are intentional, they are just part of certain zerg strategies(->building supply intensive units(ie roaches) constantly) While this adresses the supply block depate there are also all kinds of reasons for some other issues mentioned in this thread. The thing is, most of the people here do not have that much sc2 knowledge and have some wrong facts stored in their memory(supply block ->automatically very bad for example). I think it would be better if the attitude would be a little more like "why is this?, is there something i don't know?" instead of "hmm, this is bad! i know it! bad bad bad!" Of course stephano makes mistakes, for example his spine crawler timings haven't been that great and a macro hatch wouldn't have been a bad idea in some of the games he played at nasl, but he makes far less mistakes than many of you think
I don't think Stephano's supply blocks are a big problem. It's an annoyance, but because it just about never happens when an opponent is pushing out, it doesn't hurt him a lot. It's the easiest thing for casters to see, however, and that's why they make a big deal out of it.
His creep spread is bit worrisome, but less so now that he uses speedlings instead of roaches. The two problems I personally saw in NASL was not scouting proxy spots on certain maps and floating a lot of minerals mid game. The former is a bigger problem than the latter, because he was placed in a very dangerous spot in two games because of it - Antiga vs. HerO, Bel'Shir vs. MC. He was fortunate that HerO and MC screwed up their follow-ups in those games.
|
Russian Federation1849 Posts
On July 17 2012 05:39 Wertheron wrote:Do you know that in every threads which talking about NASL and co i see "Stephano so good", "the picture with stephano is so funny", lot of people are happy etc... I come here and i just see mass debates on stephano skill or GSL. ........... So, when you will finish your tempest in a glass of water, look at this cool pic: + Show Spoiler +Like an other guy said: "To the bank horseman, to the bankl!"
That's an awesome pic, is it from this NASL?
And yes, Azarkon, for God's sake, please stop ruining this thread, it's a FANCLUB. I am not coming here to read that shit. Make a thread about Stephano's gameplay flaws and write there, I am sure there will be enough people to discuss it with you.
|
On July 17 2012 05:58 Hemula wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:39 Wertheron wrote:Do you know that in every threads which talking about NASL and co i see "Stephano so good", "the picture with stephano is so funny", lot of people are happy etc... I come here and i just see mass debates on stephano skill or GSL. ........... So, when you will finish your tempest in a glass of water, look at this cool pic: + Show Spoiler +Like an other guy said: "To the bank horseman, to the bankl!" That's an awesome pic, is it from this NASL? And yes, Azarkon, for God's sake, please stop ruining this thread, it's a FANCLUB. I am not coming here to read that shit. Make a thread about Stephano's gameplay flaws and write there, I am sure there will be enough people to discuss it with you.
Exactly my thoughts. I understand we need to stay critique and all that, but really this thread is polluted by these exchanges.
Dude, we get the point. Now let's move on to positive thoughts and cheering messages, ffs.
The kid deserves it.
Stephano: You so good man.
|
+ Show Spoiler +On July 17 2012 05:39 Wertheron wrote:Do you know that in every threads which talking about NASL and co i see "Stephano so good", "the picture with stephano is so funny", lot of people are happy etc... I come here and i just see mass debates on stephano skill or GSL. ........... So, when you will finish your tempest in a glass of water, look at this cool pic: Like an other guy said: "To the bank horseman, to the bankl!"
![[image loading]](https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/182151_368480096556953_739324463_n.jpg)
Even better one from his facebook
|
On July 17 2012 05:46 vRadiatioNv wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 05:35 Azarkon wrote:On July 17 2012 05:27 vRadiatioNv wrote:On July 17 2012 05:21 Azarkon wrote:On July 17 2012 05:20 vRadiatioNv wrote:On July 17 2012 04:34 Azarkon wrote:On July 17 2012 04:27 Kuni wrote:On July 17 2012 04:19 Azarkon wrote:
Fixed it for you. My opinion looking at the progression of the fanclub is that sooner or later there was going to be a conflict between the fans who don't freak out if he does wrong and are still supportive and the fans who think he needs to sit down and correct his weaknesses. Fixed it for you. Nobody stopped supporting Stephano in this thread. The conflict was over how you evaluate his current form. Whether Stephano goes into a slump, and whether he loses, nobody here thinks that he's lost the talent to be one of the greatest players in SC 2. You need to learn what a fanboy is. Nobody here is saying Stephano doesn't have flaws to work on. What we are saying is that your prediction that he was slumping was so totally wrong, please forgive us if we don't trust any of your other arguments. I feel most of the things you are saying are pointless nitpicks, or just completely wrong. If these fixes are so easy to you, please show me your NASL championship. Highlighting postives =/= fanboyism. Constructive criticisim is fine but you're simply taking it too far and no one wants to listen anymore. Read my reply to Kuni. You didn't respond to half of what I just said. And I find it funny that you are now trying to revive your old argument. No, Stephano is not slumping. No, that was not the preditcion you made. You originally posted some recent game results of Stephano and made the claim that it appeared to be the start of a slump. You never said "the slump could start after NASL." You said it was already starting. Here's my first post on this topic: On July 12 2012 02:54 Azarkon wrote:On July 12 2012 02:41 a3den wrote:On July 12 2012 01:58 Khonsou wrote:
Well, I hope he gets his sh*t together because he didn't look scary at all the last couple of time his games were shown. I agree, for the first time in a long time, I feel like he's gonna get bodied at NASL & MLG Summer. Too much travel takes its toll, and I know he says he doesn't need much practice to be good, but that's too little right now. Fortunately, Korea is around the corner so the timing isn't that bad. Yeah, HerO is a huge challenge for him in great form, and he isn't in great form. I said that one day, the music is going to end for Stephano - is this going to be that day? Here is my second post, where I explain what I'm talking about:
With that out of the way, I am not saying that if Stephano loses to HerO his career is over. Rather, I am musing on whether this is going to be the beginning of a slump for Stephano. His refusal to practice ZvZ - and inability to practice hard towards addressing his weaknesses - was bound to bite him, and I have been observing declines in his play from about 2-3 months prior. Presently speaking, I don't think he's ready for HerO, and failing in the first round of NASL is not going to do well for his confidence. Furthermore, with no time in between NASL finals, IEM quals, and MLG Summer Arena, he won't have an opportunity to regain his form after it.
It has all the setup of an incoming slump period, and with it the end of his reputation of being the best NA / EU player. That is what I'm talking about when I say that the music is ending - Stephano gets a pass in a lot of areas because he is the best NA / EU player. He is able to, for example, forfeit tournaments repeatedly without losing his sponsorship, and without tournament organizers banning him from their events. When he streams, he is able to get >9000 viewers. All of this is because he is the best, and that is the reputation he has to maintain for the music and the parties to continue.
Where do you get from that to 'he's already in a slump?' Everything I said was contingent on him losing to HerO and then not improving on that loss in MLG. The entire argument was a hypothetical. Ok, I'm sorry, I didn't remember all of those posts. But I would like to point out that you still haven't addressed half of what I said. And now that you say that "The entire argument was a hypothetical," I must ask, why did you even bother posting it? What was the purpose? Besides the fact that it didn't even come close to happening, I don't see what you hoped to accomplish by bringing it up.
Responses to your other arguments, because you asked for them:
You're nitpicking
Am I? Is his ZvZ not a weak spot? Did him losing to two base all-ins from SaSe and MaNa in MLG and DH not worry other fans? I recall differently. After those games, the bulk of people here was criticizing him for not being able to hold what he always held before, saying that his mechanics were sloppier than usual, and doom and glooming over his ZvZ. The losses cost him tens of thousands of dollars, they were important learning experiences.
Fanboyism =/= Highlighting positives
Highlighting positives is one thing, saying that people are haters / dumb for ever questioning Stephano's results in the last months quite another. Stephano took serious losses these last two months against people he is greatly favored against. Saying that those losses don't matter is fanboyism. They do matter, and Stephano learned from them.
Why bring up a hypothetical?
Why not? There was nothing to discuss but hypotheticals going into NASL, and with Stephano telling us that he 'didn't practice in two weeks' and 'don't expect much from me,' wasn't the response obvious? He was managing expectations, and so was I.
That he vastly exceeded those expectations is a cause for joy, but does not change what they were going into the tournament.
|
On July 17 2012 06:13 NeonFox wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 17 2012 05:39 Wertheron wrote:Do you know that in every threads which talking about NASL and co i see "Stephano so good", "the picture with stephano is so funny", lot of people are happy etc... I come here and i just see mass debates on stephano skill or GSL. ........... So, when you will finish your tempest in a glass of water, look at this cool pic: Like an other guy said: "To the bank horseman, to the bankl!" Even better one from his facebook
Awesome pic! :D
Anyone knows which tournament Stephano is playing next?
|
On July 17 2012 06:13 NeonFox wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 17 2012 05:39 Wertheron wrote:Do you know that in every threads which talking about NASL and co i see "Stephano so good", "the picture with stephano is so funny", lot of people are happy etc... I come here and i just see mass debates on stephano skill or GSL. ........... So, when you will finish your tempest in a glass of water, look at this cool pic: Like an other guy said: "To the bank horseman, to the bankl!" Even better one from his facebook
XD, so good. Need to be in the First Post.
|
On July 17 2012 06:21 Rayjin wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 06:13 NeonFox wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 17 2012 05:39 Wertheron wrote:Do you know that in every threads which talking about NASL and co i see "Stephano so good", "the picture with stephano is so funny", lot of people are happy etc... I come here and i just see mass debates on stephano skill or GSL. ........... So, when you will finish your tempest in a glass of water, look at this cool pic: Like an other guy said: "To the bank horseman, to the bankl!" Even better one from his facebook Awesome pic! :D Anyone knows which tournament Stephano is playing next?
IEM Qualifiers on Tuesday.
|
Russian Federation1849 Posts
Call me dumb, but I just do not fucking understand what is A's point.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
