On June 07 2013 04:46 Jophess wrote: Updated the list again, up to 127 people now. Also made a Google Doc Spreadsheet to make it easier to update. Public editing is disabled to prevent assholes from spoiling. + Show Spoiler +
Aerys II "Mad King" Targaryen Hot Pie Missandei Shae Alliser Thorne Illyrio Mopatis Mord Shagga Amory Lorch Ilyn Payne Myrcella Baratheon (Lannister) Shireen Baratheon Anguy Irri Old Nan Stannis Baratheon Arya Stark Jaime "Kingslayer" Lannister Olenna Tyrell (Redwyne) Syrio Forel Balon Greyjoy Janos Slynt Orell Talisa Stark (Maegyr) Barristan Selmy Jaqen H'ghar Osha Theon Greyjoy Benjen Stark Jeor Mormont Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish Thoros of Myr Beric Dondarrion Jhiqui Podrick Payne Timett Boros Blount Joffrey Baratheon (Lannister) Polliver Tommen Baratheon (Lannister) Boy (Theon's torturer) Jojen Reed Pyat Pree Tormund "Giantsbane" Bran Stark Jon Arryn Pyp Tyrion Lannister "The Imp" Brienne of Tarth Jon Snow Qhorin Halfhand Tywin Lannister Bronn Jorah Mormont Quaithe Ulf Brynden "Blackfish" Tully Jory Cassell Qyburn Vardis Egen Catelyn Stark (Tully) Kevan Lannister Rakharo Varys Cersei Lannister Khal Drogo Randyll Tarly Viserys Targaryen Chella Lancel Lannister Rast Walder Frey Craster Locke Renly Baratheon Xaro Xhoan Daxos Daario Naharis Lommy Greenhands Rhaegar Targaryen Yara Greyjoy Daenerys Targaryen Loras Tyrell "The Knight of Flowers" Rickard Karstark Ygritte Dagmer Cleftjaw Lyanna Stark Rickon Stark Yoren Davos Seaworth Lysa Arryn (Tully) Robb Stark Doreah Mace Tyrell Robert Baratheon Eddard "Ned" Stark Maester Aemon Targaryen Robin Arryn Eddison Tollet "Dolorous Edd" Maester Luwin Rodrik Cassell Edmure Tully Maester Pycelle Roose Bolton Gendry Mance Rayder Ros Gilly Margaery Tyrell Roslin Frey Greatjon Umber Marillion Salladhor Saan Gregor "The Mountain" Clegane Mathos Seaworth Samwell Tarly Grenn Meera Reed Sandor "The Hound" Clegane Grey Worm Melisandre Sansa Stark Hallyne Meryn Trant Selyse Baratheon (Florent) Hodor Mirri Maz Duur Septa Mordane
Should add Tywin and Tyrion on there too. Get confused sometimes on the placing of the Y's.
On June 07 2013 04:46 Jophess wrote: Updated the list again, up to 127 people now. Also made a Google Doc Spreadsheet to make it easier to update. Public editing is disabled to prevent assholes from spoiling. + Show Spoiler +
Aerys II "Mad King" Targaryen Hot Pie Missandei Shae Alliser Thorne Illyrio Mopatis Mord Shagga Amory Lorch Ilyn Payne Myrcella Baratheon (Lannister) Shireen Baratheon Anguy Irri Old Nan Stannis Baratheon Arya Stark Jaime "Kingslayer" Lannister Olenna Tyrell (Redwyne) Syrio Forel Balon Greyjoy Janos Slynt Orell Talisa Stark (Maegyr) Barristan Selmy Jaqen H'ghar Osha Theon Greyjoy Benjen Stark Jeor Mormont Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish Thoros of Myr Beric Dondarrion Jhiqui Podrick Payne Timett Boros Blount Joffrey Baratheon (Lannister) Polliver Tommen Baratheon (Lannister) Boy (Theon's torturer) Jojen Reed Pyat Pree Tormund "Giantsbane" Bran Stark Jon Arryn Pyp Tyrion Lannister "The Imp" Brienne of Tarth Jon Snow Qhorin Halfhand Tywin Lannister Bronn Jorah Mormont Quaithe Ulf Brynden "Blackfish" Tully Jory Cassell Qyburn Vardis Egen Catelyn Stark (Tully) Kevan Lannister Rakharo Varys Cersei Lannister Khal Drogo Randyll Tarly Viserys Targaryen Chella Lancel Lannister Rast Walder Frey Craster Locke Renly Baratheon Xaro Xhoan Daxos Daario Naharis Lommy Greenhands Rhaegar Targaryen Yara Greyjoy Daenerys Targaryen Loras Tyrell "The Knight of Flowers" Rickard Karstark Ygritte Dagmer Cleftjaw Lyanna Stark Rickon Stark Yoren Davos Seaworth Lysa Arryn (Tully) Robb Stark Doreah Mace Tyrell Robert Baratheon Eddard "Ned" Stark Maester Aemon Targaryen Robin Arryn Eddison Tollet "Dolorous Edd" Maester Luwin Rodrik Cassell Edmure Tully Maester Pycelle Roose Bolton Gendry Mance Rayder Ros Gilly Margaery Tyrell Roslin Frey Greatjon Umber Marillion Salladhor Saan Gregor "The Mountain" Clegane Mathos Seaworth Samwell Tarly Grenn Meera Reed Sandor "The Hound" Clegane Grey Worm Melisandre Sansa Stark Hallyne Meryn Trant Selyse Baratheon (Florent) Hodor Mirri Maz Duur Septa Mordane
Should add Tywin and Tyrion on there too. Get confused sometimes on the placing of the Y's.
On June 06 2013 14:35 Itsmedudeman wrote: I have to say, despite the Stark's being "responsible" for their own fate, they're unbelievably unlucky. Ned Stark apologizes for treason yet still gets executed in the most heinous way even though he was supposed to be spared. Robb Stark is betrayed despite taking reasonable measures to make up for his mistakes in the past. Arya almost reaches her family and they all die right before she makes it there (although I guess you could argue this is lucky for her), and Sansa almost makes it off the island and marries a person she wants to marry until Tywin gets involved at the last moment.
On the other hand you have Jaime who miraculously escapes some dead end situations multiple times, and Tyrion survives an axe to the face.
Also, I'm really looking forward to how the Jaime storyline evolves. After all, he's supposed to keep his word and return the girls to the Stark family, right? Well, now they're dead so what does he do now? Surely he won't just do nothing about it, but how could he ever possibly make it up to the Starks for sparing his life?
I don't know if it is entirely a matter of luck. IMO the Starks make a lot of strategical mistakes in their decision making due to their values about wrong and right. These values work when you are the supreme ruler in the north far removed from King's Landing but not when you play the game of thrones. In fact I find that most of the Starks are rather naive.
Ned should have known that non of the people from the small council were to be trusted. He also could have decided not go and investigate into Joffrey's heritage. He should have known Joffrey was a total dick. He should have just gone directly to Robert instead of telling Cersei first etc.
By constantly doing 'the right thing' he puts himself in a disadvantageous position over and over again because the other players do not have any such moral constraints. This has to end badly at some point. It is inevitable.
It's not even the "right thing" though. Robb didn't do the "right thing" by marrying Talisa and breaking his vows to the Freys. He didn't do right by his family, nor his kingdom. People were out there bleeding and dying for him, and he throws it all away on some romance?
Same with Ned Stark. It wasn't the right thing to go to Cersei. According to the laws and societal norms of Westeros, he should have gone to Robert Baratheon. By going to Cersei first, he was scheming and not doing his duties as a loyal Hand. Catelyn seizing Tyrion was not lawful either. She did it solely due to emotional reasons.
In fact, if you look at what the Starks have done so far, very few of their decisions have been rational, dutiful, or lawful. They've simply been emotional.
Well, for Ned, it seems that his ideas of "right" and "wrong" were guided not just by honour but by mercy. If I recall correctly, he opposed the killing of women and children at every turn.
On June 07 2013 04:46 Jophess wrote: Updated the list again, up to 127 people now. Also made a Google Doc Spreadsheet to make it easier to update. Public editing is disabled to prevent assholes from spoiling. + Show Spoiler +
Aerys II "Mad King" Targaryen Hot Pie Missandei Shae Alliser Thorne Illyrio Mopatis Mord Shagga Amory Lorch Ilyn Payne Myrcella Baratheon (Lannister) Shireen Baratheon Anguy Irri Old Nan Stannis Baratheon Arya Stark Jaime "Kingslayer" Lannister Olenna Tyrell (Redwyne) Syrio Forel Balon Greyjoy Janos Slynt Orell Talisa Stark (Maegyr) Barristan Selmy Jaqen H'ghar Osha Theon Greyjoy Benjen Stark Jeor Mormont Petyr "Littlefinger" Baelish Thoros of Myr Beric Dondarrion Jhiqui Podrick Payne Timett Boros Blount Joffrey Baratheon (Lannister) Polliver Tommen Baratheon (Lannister) Boy (Theon's torturer) Jojen Reed Pyat Pree Tormund "Giantsbane" Bran Stark Jon Arryn Pyp Tyrion Lannister "The Imp" Brienne of Tarth Jon Snow Qhorin Halfhand Tywin Lannister Bronn Jorah Mormont Quaithe Ulf Brynden "Blackfish" Tully Jory Cassell Qyburn Vardis Egen Catelyn Stark (Tully) Kevan Lannister Rakharo Varys Cersei Lannister Khal Drogo Randyll Tarly Viserys Targaryen Chella Lancel Lannister Rast Walder Frey Craster Locke Renly Baratheon Xaro Xhoan Daxos Daario Naharis Lommy Greenhands Rhaegar Targaryen Yara Greyjoy Daenerys Targaryen Loras Tyrell "The Knight of Flowers" Rickard Karstark Ygritte Dagmer Cleftjaw Lyanna Stark Rickon Stark Yoren Davos Seaworth Lysa Arryn (Tully) Robb Stark Doreah Mace Tyrell Robert Baratheon Eddard "Ned" Stark Maester Aemon Targaryen Robin Arryn Eddison Tollet "Dolorous Edd" Maester Luwin Rodrik Cassell Edmure Tully Maester Pycelle Roose Bolton Gendry Mance Rayder Ros Gilly Margaery Tyrell Roslin Frey Greatjon Umber Marillion Salladhor Saan Gregor "The Mountain" Clegane Mathos Seaworth Samwell Tarly Grenn Meera Reed Sandor "The Hound" Clegane Grey Worm Melisandre Sansa Stark Hallyne Meryn Trant Selyse Baratheon (Florent) Hodor Mirri Maz Duur Septa Mordane
Should add Tywin and Tyrion on there too. Get confused sometimes on the placing of the Y's.
There are more if you scroll right.
Theres no scroll bar to scroll right with. But when I quote you I can see it in the above text that theres more after the S's.
I feel like Cate, after hearing Rains of Castamere and seeing the door shut should have went and nudged Robb and been like "yolo bro so get the fuck out"...
Also I wanted the Hound so bad to just start killing motherfuckers left and right I dunno why but I just wanted him to save Robb lol
On June 07 2013 02:53 killa_robot wrote: Why would commoners have no surname? They have them, they just don't matter enough to be brought up, unlike the large house names.
Given Joffery's father is supposed to be Robert, his last name is Baratheon, not waters lol.
~4:20, Davos notes that upon being en-nobled by Stannis, he changed from Davos of Fleabottom to Davos of House Seaworth. Interesting food for thought.
Flaebottom is the place he lived, it's the poorest of the poorest of King's Landing (Where Margaery took care of the orphans). I think it's just a reference where he comes from.
It is indeed. However, the use of a location instead of a last name indicates a lack of lowborn family names.
It may sound cool if you come from a coolsounding place, though. "I am Jaime of Banefort" or "Jon of Bloody Gate".
On June 07 2013 02:53 killa_robot wrote: Why would commoners have no surname? They have them, they just don't matter enough to be brought up, unlike the large house names.
Given Joffery's father is supposed to be Robert, his last name is Baratheon, not waters lol.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfNv2VPxv0Y ~4:20, Davos notes that upon being en-nobled by Stannis, he changed from Davos of Fleabottom to Davos of House Seaworth. Interesting food for thought.
Flaebottom is the place he lived, it's the poorest of the poorest of King's Landing (Where Margaery took care of the orphans). I think it's just a reference where he comes from.
It is indeed. However, the use of a location instead of a last name indicates a lack of lowborn family names.
It may sound cool if you come from a coolsounding place, though. "I am Jaime of Banefort" or "Jon of Bloody Gate".
(to the people arguing that Dany is not a good/virtuous character) You people are so incredible. You're just unbelievable. I mean, are you just obsessed with playing devil's advocate? You're throwing this high school ethics / politics discussion in to back you up? I don't give a shit about this awful more relativism. Danaerys is CLEARLY the most compassionate of the major (living) players in GoT. To not believe that is insane. They all commit acts of slaughter upon their enemies, except Dany picks enemies virtuously, doesn't slaughter innocents and is not a fool to religion.
On June 07 2013 02:48 Lord Tolkien wrote: But why would that be awesome? Would it have been awesome if every slaveholder in the South was lynched in the aftermath of the Civil War?
It wouldn't have been awesome but I personally wouldn't consider it bad. More 'they got what was coming to them'.
Consider that not every slaveholder is going to be a harsh, abusive cunt. Some might treat their slaves well, some may be advocating for reform towards more humane slave practices, many will likely have families. All of them grew up in an society and culture where slavery is an acceptable practice, and where there was likely no active movement or critique for the abolition of slavery.
Meh, anyone who owns slaves can die as far as I am concerned.
And in comes Dany one day, and she reneges a trade and turns your entire army against you, massacring all slaveholding families (save the children), in addition to setting your city on fire with dragons. And without insomuch as an attempt at discourse and understanding. Sociologically speaking, her actions are equivalent to an even worse Russian Revolution/French Revolution (Reign of Terror phase), albeit on a far smaller scale (though dependent on how prevalent slavery is in these cities) in terms of consequences.
The guy was a rude motherfucker AND he and his fellow slavers treated the slave army HORRIFICALLY, forcing them to kill newborns in front of their mothers to dehumanise them. You're insane if you think that Dany's actions were not more justified than the killings of those revolutions.
Now was she justified in doing so? Subjective (though pretty much everyone cheers for her actions when it happens), but the show's done a great job immersing the viewer in the medieval morality/mindset.
Yes. And by modern standards, still justified. In fact, more justified. I hope every single one of the people who are involved in rearing child soldier armies in Africa die horrible deaths.
After the Starks got killed it made me thinks... I havn't read the books or anything, it's just pure speculation.
I wanna see everything "magic" move slowly into an epic battle for power of Westeros. The dragons. The dead walkers from the north. The sexy witch from the Lord of Light and even those kids (the stark and the other one) who have "magical powers".
That would be an epic escalation of the story at this point. Of course, that would mean the next step is that the other houses (including the Lannisters) get crushed.
On June 07 2013 05:29 sc4k wrote: (to the people arguing that Dany is not a good/virtuous character) You people are so incredible. You're just unbelievable. I mean, are you just obsessed with playing devil's advocate? You're throwing this high school ethics / politics discussion in to back you up? I don't give a shit about this awful more relativism. Danaerys is CLEARLY the most compassionate of the major (living) players in GoT. To not believe that is insane. They all commit acts of slaughter upon their enemies, except Dany picks enemies virtuously, doesn't slaughter innocents and is not a fool to religion.
On June 07 2013 02:48 Lord Tolkien wrote: But why would that be awesome? Would it have been awesome if every slaveholder in the South was lynched in the aftermath of the Civil War?
It wouldn't have been awesome but I personally wouldn't consider it bad. More 'they got what was coming to them'.
Consider that not every slaveholder is going to be a harsh, abusive cunt. Some might treat their slaves well, some may be advocating for reform towards more humane slave practices, many will likely have families. All of them grew up in an society and culture where slavery is an acceptable practice, and where there was likely no active movement or critique for the abolition of slavery.
Meh, anyone who owns slaves can die as far as I am concerned.
And in comes Dany one day, and she reneges a trade and turns your entire army against you, massacring all slaveholding families (save the children), in addition to setting your city on fire with dragons. And without insomuch as an attempt at discourse and understanding. Sociologically speaking, her actions are equivalent to an even worse Russian Revolution/French Revolution (Reign of Terror phase), albeit on a far smaller scale (though dependent on how prevalent slavery is in these cities) in terms of consequences.
The guy was a rude motherfucker AND he and his fellow slavers treated the slave army HORRIFICALLY, forcing them to kill newborns in front of their mothers to dehumanise them. You're insane if you think that Dany's actions were not more justified than the killings of those revolutions.
Now was she justified in doing so? Subjective (though pretty much everyone cheers for her actions when it happens), but the show's done a great job immersing the viewer in the medieval morality/mindset.
Yes. And by modern standards, still justified. In fact, more justified. I hope every single one of the people who are involved in rearing child soldier armies in Africa die horrible deaths.
By whose modern standards are you going, Saudi Arabia's? You completely missed the point if you think slavery is a capital crime.
Dany also left 2 people to die of hunger/thirst in a locked completely dark treasure vault. Oh and she also burned a woman alive. I'm pretty sure she is not perfect
On June 07 2013 05:29 sc4k wrote: (to the people arguing that Dany is not a good/virtuous character) You people are so incredible. You're just unbelievable. I mean, are you just obsessed with playing devil's advocate? You're throwing this high school ethics / politics discussion in to back you up? I don't give a shit about this awful more relativism. Danaerys is CLEARLY the most compassionate of the major (living) players in GoT. To not believe that is insane. They all commit acts of slaughter upon their enemies, except Dany picks enemies virtuously, doesn't slaughter innocents and is not a fool to religion.
On June 07 2013 02:48 Lord Tolkien wrote: But why would that be awesome? Would it have been awesome if every slaveholder in the South was lynched in the aftermath of the Civil War?
It wouldn't have been awesome but I personally wouldn't consider it bad. More 'they got what was coming to them'.
Consider that not every slaveholder is going to be a harsh, abusive cunt. Some might treat their slaves well, some may be advocating for reform towards more humane slave practices, many will likely have families. All of them grew up in an society and culture where slavery is an acceptable practice, and where there was likely no active movement or critique for the abolition of slavery.
Meh, anyone who owns slaves can die as far as I am concerned.
And in comes Dany one day, and she reneges a trade and turns your entire army against you, massacring all slaveholding families (save the children), in addition to setting your city on fire with dragons. And without insomuch as an attempt at discourse and understanding. Sociologically speaking, her actions are equivalent to an even worse Russian Revolution/French Revolution (Reign of Terror phase), albeit on a far smaller scale (though dependent on how prevalent slavery is in these cities) in terms of consequences.
The guy was a rude motherfucker AND he and his fellow slavers treated the slave army HORRIFICALLY, forcing them to kill newborns in front of their mothers to dehumanise them. You're insane if you think that Dany's actions were not more justified than the killings of those revolutions.
Now was she justified in doing so? Subjective (though pretty much everyone cheers for her actions when it happens), but the show's done a great job immersing the viewer in the medieval morality/mindset.
Yes. And by modern standards, still justified. In fact, more justified. I hope every single one of the people who are involved in rearing child soldier armies in Africa die horrible deaths.
By whose modern standards are you going, Saudi Arabia's? You completely missed the point if you think slavery is a capital crime.
Well, first of all - rearing an army of slaves and treating them inhumanely surely should be a capital crime.
And secondly, in terms of slavers and getting killed by their slaves, I of course don't think it's a fair and reasonable punishment BUT I don't think it's evil or bad. Just what they deserved. If, in modern times, a slave killed their slaver, the defence of 'self-defence' would be available in my opinion morally and quite probably legally too.
And just what would you do Warlock40? Would you just wander by Astapor? Pay your respects, smile and leave? Allow the inhumane army process to continue unimpeded? Perhaps go to the market and watch a few baby killings?
On June 07 2013 05:51 KadaverBB wrote: Dany also left 2 people to die of hunger/thirst in a locked completely dark treasure vault. Oh and she also burned a woman alive. I'm pretty sure she is not perfect
But it's not like she did these things without provocation! The difference between an evil bastard and a person who doesn't take shit from people is whether or not they were provoked. The witch and the locked up people both betrayed Dany. Any of the characters would have done the same. But none of the other characters have done such morally applaudable actions as offer the slave army their freedom or demand that slaves be treated better (with the exception of the Hound saving Sansa and Jaime killing the king - but the hound is not a major player and jaime threw innocent bran off the wall).
Well, first of all - rearing an army of slaves and treating them inhumanely surely should be a capital crime.
And secondly, in terms of slavers and getting killed by their slaves, I of course don't think it's a fair and reasonable punishment BUT I don't think it's evil or bad. Just what they deserved. If, in modern times, a slave killed their slaver, the defence of 'self-defence' would be available in my opinion morally and quite probably legally too.
And just what would you do Warlock40? Would you just wander by Astapor? Pay your respects, smile and leave? Allow the inhumane army process to continue unimpeded? Perhaps go to the market and watch a few baby killings?
Well, it's true that the institution of slavery allows for, indeed legitimates, brutality and murder, and those guilty should be punished accordingly. That said, I don't think ordering a mass killing was justice. Perhaps, given the constraints on manpower and time she had, it was the most viable option, but it is nonetheless distasteful.
On June 07 2013 05:51 KadaverBB wrote: Dany also left 2 people to die of hunger/thirst in a locked completely dark treasure vault. Oh and she also burned a woman alive. I'm pretty sure she is not perfect
The original point that started this off was that she is a badass. You don't have to be perfect to be a badass. It might even diminish your chances somewhat.
Yeah of course Dany believes what she does is the right thing. But that is part of what makes her so dangerous. The extreme self-righteousness. She doesnt think about consequences, she does what she believes is right. And burns everything in her path. One could compare it with the communists of the early 20th century for example, or with a lot of other revolutionaries or extremists. They believe so much in their final goal, their mission and that they are doing the right thing that they leave common sense and proportionality behind them.
Ok maybe the end will justify the means with Dany, but it might also end in tragedy. We dont know yet.
sc4k compassion is not just for oppressed people. It's all encompassing. she's not compassionate if she's killing slavers. That's not how compassion works.
On June 07 2013 07:08 SamsungStar wrote: sc4k compassion is not just for oppressed people. It's all encompassing. she's not compassionate if she's killing slavers. That's not how compassion works.
Please explain what resolution would be more compassionate than Dany's choice because I'm at a loss to find a better resolution.
EPT
I dunno why but I just wanted him to save Robb lol
