On June 06 2013 18:23 TheIlluminated wrote: Ban them from the rest of the season?
a permaban would do that, lol.
At any rate I would agree, people who have read the books really shouldn't be in this thread at all as you're gonna let something slip no matter how clever or careful you think you are being. Isn't the point of this thread so we purposefully don't gain foreknowledge of whats going to happen? Speculation is fine, but if you've read the books it's no longer speculative, you know something and now have to try to disguise that you know something.
On June 06 2013 14:35 Itsmedudeman wrote: I have to say, despite the Stark's being "responsible" for their own fate, they're unbelievably unlucky. Ned Stark apologizes for treason yet still gets executed in the most heinous way even though he was supposed to be spared. Robb Stark is betrayed despite taking reasonable measures to make up for his mistakes in the past. Arya almost reaches her family and they all die right before she makes it there (although I guess you could argue this is lucky for her), and Sansa almost makes it off the island and marries a person she wants to marry until Tywin gets involved at the last moment.
On the other hand you have Jaime who miraculously escapes some dead end situations multiple times, and Tyrion survives an axe to the face.
Also, I'm really looking forward to how the Jaime storyline evolves. After all, he's supposed to keep his word and return the girls to the Stark family, right? Well, now they're dead so what does he do now? Surely he won't just do nothing about it, but how could he ever possibly make it up to the Starks for sparing his life?
I don't know if it is entirely a matter of luck. IMO the Starks make a lot of strategical mistakes in their decision making due to their values about wrong and right. These values work when you are the supreme ruler in the north far removed from King's Landing but not when you play the game of thrones. In fact I find that most of the Starks are rather naive.
Ned should have known that non of the people from the small council were to be trusted. He also could have decided not go and investigate into Joffrey's heritage. He should have known Joffrey was a total dick. He should have just gone directly to Robert instead of telling Cersei first etc.
By constantly doing 'the right thing' he puts himself in a disadvantageous position over and over again because the other players do not have any such moral constraints. This has to end badly at some point. It is inevitable.
Just now watched ep. 9 and, oh my god, I never thought I would be so ruined cause of TV series, I had almost the same feeling when Ned Stark was executed O_O I feel like Stark family is a martyr family, all of them are suffering so hard, and that "red wedding" was a bit shocked for me...On the other hard I'm rly hoping for Daenerys Targaryen gonna punch all those asses that betrayed Stark family, it would be fair enough. Her faction looks pretty strong for now, with 2 gosu knights, with Dario and Grey Worm, with big army and 3 dragons.
On June 07 2013 01:20 Jockmcplop wrote: Yeah Dany's got one thing that Robb/Ned never had. The girl is pure badass.
(dragons too)
She's a lot more ruthless and not as naive.
I actually think this is one of the real signs of mastery about this show immersing us in ancient culture: that people still root for Dany. She massacred every defenseless adult (male? maybe females too?) in Astapoor and we're not even asking what happened to "every man who holds the whip" in Yunkai are we? And yet, after both scenes, we were seriously rooting for her. Hell, we cheered when she burned a witch and locked her favorite handmaiden in a vault to die of thirst. Why?
Because we see a world of pain--which is the world as it really is--and we buy into the theory of retributive justice (often corporate) without so much as a thought. Notice how many people are asking for Lannister or Tyrell blood after this... not necessarily the perpetrators; just someone to pay, blood for blood.
Given that most of us are Christians or humanists to whom such ethical theories are anathema, it is really cool that this has been done and done well.
On June 07 2013 01:20 Jockmcplop wrote: Yeah Dany's got one thing that Robb/Ned never had. The girl is pure badass.
(dragons too)
She's a lot more ruthless and not as naive.
I actually think this is one of the real signs of mastery about this show immersing us in ancient culture: that people still root for Dany. She massacred every defenseless adult (male? maybe females too?) in Astapoor and we're not even asking what happened to "every man who holds the whip" in Yunkai are we? And yet, after both scenes, we were seriously rooting for her. Hell, we cheered when she burned a witch and locked her favorite handmaiden in a vault to die of thirst. Why?
Because we see a world of pain--which is the world as it really is--and we buy into the theory of retributive justice (often corporate) without so much as a thought. Notice how many people are asking for Lannister or Tyrell blood after this... not necessarily the perpetrators; just someone to pay, blood for blood.
Given that most of us are Christians or humanists to whom such ethical theories are anathema, it is really cool that this has been done and done well.
Well not everybody is rooting for her. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau was asked which GoT character scares him the most.
Answer: "Melisandre the Red priestess—she's a scary woman. There's also something about that type of power that Daenerys has. Most people believe she's doing the right thing, but she's burning people alive. She's got a chip on her shoulder. I don't want her to come across the Narrow Sea. She's going to burn thousands and thousands and thousands of people and have that self-righteous smirk on her face the whole time."
On June 06 2013 16:35 KadaverBB wrote: We are not making a third thread, but yeah. Please guys, stop arguing about spoilers in here. You guys are are ruining this thread for yourselves with all this "omg is this a spoiler !?!?" paranoia. We are actively monitoring this thread, spoilers are usually removed within seconds/minutes. We will never get it down to 0% spoilers, but that is a risk you guys got to live with if you want to use the internet
On June 07 2013 01:20 Jockmcplop wrote: Yeah Dany's got one thing that Robb/Ned never had. The girl is pure badass.
(dragons too)
She's a lot more ruthless and not as naive.
I actually think this is one of the real signs of mastery about this show immersing us in ancient culture: that people still root for Dany. She massacred every defenseless adult (male? maybe females too?) in Astapoor and we're not even asking what happened to "every man who holds the whip" in Yunkai are we? And yet, after both scenes, we were seriously rooting for her. Hell, we cheered when she burned a witch and locked her favorite handmaiden in a vault to die of thirst. Why?
Because we see a world of pain--which is the world as it really is--and we buy into the theory of retributive justice (often corporate) without so much as a thought. Notice how many people are asking for Lannister or Tyrell blood after this... not necessarily the perpetrators; just someone to pay, blood for blood.
Given that most of us are Christians or humanists to whom such ethical theories are anathema, it is really cool that this has been done and done well.
Well not everybody is rooting for her. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau was asked which GoT character scares him the most.
Answer: "Melisandre the Red priestess—she's a scary woman. There's also something about that type of power that Daenerys has. Most people believe she's doing the right thing, but she's burning people alive. She's got a chip on her shoulder. I don't want her to come across the Narrow Sea. She's going to burn thousands and thousands and thousands of people and have that self-righteous smirk on her face the whole time."
He's right, of course. Note however that my point stands... he himself notes she's a fan favorite. It's this paradox that's good storytelling. When we watched the Astapoor scene the first time, everybody in the room I was in was cheering for her (we repeated it for good measure). It's only after, when you think about the implications, that you realize how really scary she is.
On June 07 2013 01:20 Jockmcplop wrote: Yeah Dany's got one thing that Robb/Ned never had. The girl is pure badass.
(dragons too)
She's a lot more ruthless and not as naive.
I actually think this is one of the real signs of mastery about this show immersing us in ancient culture: that people still root for Dany. She massacred every defenseless adult (male? maybe females too?) in Astapoor and we're not even asking what happened to "every man who holds the whip" in Yunkai are we? And yet, after both scenes, we were seriously rooting for her. Hell, we cheered when she burned a witch and locked her favorite handmaiden in a vault to die of thirst. Why?
Because we see a world of pain--which is the world as it really is--and we buy into the theory of retributive justice (often corporate) without so much as a thought. Notice how many people are asking for Lannister or Tyrell blood after this... not necessarily the perpetrators; just someone to pay, blood for blood.
Given that most of us are Christians or humanists to whom such ethical theories are anathema, it is really cool that this has been done and done well.
Whoah what are you guys talking about? I don't recall Dany having innocent people killed in Astapor. Only the people who kept them as slaves. That's fucking awesome. Same for Yunkai, the hell is the problem with what she did there? The other two examples you have conveniently left out that they betrayed her trust first (iirc).
There's nothing wrong with someone who takes literally zero bullshit from people, as long as when they have no reason to, they don't inflict suffering and pain (ie Joffrey). The fact that she frees slaves and then offers them either to join her or to be free and leave is not a 'clever trick' to make simple people like her. It's one of the only genuinely virtuous actions performed in this entire story. Jaime killing the king and the Hound saving Sansa are the other major ones (though I've probably forgotten something else).
Not only does Dany have the conscience to make her admirable, she also has one hell of a set of balls. Not only is she virtuous, she is also not a weakling and is not a doormat.
On June 07 2013 01:20 Jockmcplop wrote: Yeah Dany's got one thing that Robb/Ned never had. The girl is pure badass.
(dragons too)
She's a lot more ruthless and not as naive.
I actually think this is one of the real signs of mastery about this show immersing us in ancient culture: that people still root for Dany. She massacred every defenseless adult (male? maybe females too?) in Astapoor and we're not even asking what happened to "every man who holds the whip" in Yunkai are we? And yet, after both scenes, we were seriously rooting for her. Hell, we cheered when she burned a witch and locked her favorite handmaiden in a vault to die of thirst. Why?
Because we see a world of pain--which is the world as it really is--and we buy into the theory of retributive justice (often corporate) without so much as a thought. Notice how many people are asking for Lannister or Tyrell blood after this... not necessarily the perpetrators; just someone to pay, blood for blood.
Given that most of us are Christians or humanists to whom such ethical theories are anathema, it is really cool that this has been done and done well.
Well not everybody is rooting for her. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau was asked which GoT character scares him the most.
Answer: "Melisandre the Red priestess—she's a scary woman. There's also something about that type of power that Daenerys has. Most people believe she's doing the right thing, but she's burning people alive. She's got a chip on her shoulder. I don't want her to come across the Narrow Sea. She's going to burn thousands and thousands and thousands of people and have that self-righteous smirk on her face the whole time."
He's right, of course. Note however that my point stands... he himself notes she's a fan favorite. It's this paradox that's good storytelling. When we watched the Astapoor scene the first time, everybody in the room I was in was cheering for her (we repeated it for good measure). It's only after, when you think about the implications, that you realize how really scary she is.
I cannot understand your ethics. How is it morally wrong to allow slaves who have been imprisoned by people from birth, forced into an army and FORCED to kill a baby in front of its mother in order to prove they have been imbued with the necessary level of dispassionate cruelty to be part of its unpaid slave army, to get revenge on their captors???
It would be morally wrong to walk past Astapor and do nothing. Or comply with the dragon trade. If you suggest she should have allowed the slavers to continue raising their slave army, I consider you morally dubious.
On June 07 2013 01:20 Jockmcplop wrote: Yeah Dany's got one thing that Robb/Ned never had. The girl is pure badass.
(dragons too)
She's a lot more ruthless and not as naive.
I actually think this is one of the real signs of mastery about this show immersing us in ancient culture: that people still root for Dany. She massacred every defenseless adult (male? maybe females too?) in Astapoor and we're not even asking what happened to "every man who holds the whip" in Yunkai are we? And yet, after both scenes, we were seriously rooting for her. Hell, we cheered when she burned a witch and locked her favorite handmaiden in a vault to die of thirst. Why?
Because we see a world of pain--which is the world as it really is--and we buy into the theory of retributive justice (often corporate) without so much as a thought. Notice how many people are asking for Lannister or Tyrell blood after this... not necessarily the perpetrators; just someone to pay, blood for blood.
Given that most of us are Christians or humanists to whom such ethical theories are anathema, it is really cool that this has been done and done well.
Whoah what are you guys talking about? I don't recall Dany having innocent people killed in Astapor. Only the people who kept them as slaves. That's fucking awesome. Same for Yunkai, the hell is the problem with what she did there? The other two examples you have conveniently left out that they betrayed her trust first (iirc).
There's nothing wrong with someone who takes literally zero bullshit from people, as long as when they have no reason to, they don't inflict suffering and pain (ie Joffrey). The fact that she frees slaves and then offers them either to join her or to be free and leave is not a 'clever trick' to make simple people like her. It's one of the only genuinely virtuous actions performed in this entire story. Jaime killing the king and the Hound saving Sansa are the other major ones (though I've probably forgotten something else).
Not only does Dany have the conscience to make her admirable, she also has one hell of a set of balls. Not only is she virtuous, she is also not a weakling and is not a doormat.
On June 07 2013 01:20 Jockmcplop wrote: Yeah Dany's got one thing that Robb/Ned never had. The girl is pure badass.
(dragons too)
She's a lot more ruthless and not as naive.
I actually think this is one of the real signs of mastery about this show immersing us in ancient culture: that people still root for Dany. She massacred every defenseless adult (male? maybe females too?) in Astapoor and we're not even asking what happened to "every man who holds the whip" in Yunkai are we? And yet, after both scenes, we were seriously rooting for her. Hell, we cheered when she burned a witch and locked her favorite handmaiden in a vault to die of thirst. Why?
Because we see a world of pain--which is the world as it really is--and we buy into the theory of retributive justice (often corporate) without so much as a thought. Notice how many people are asking for Lannister or Tyrell blood after this... not necessarily the perpetrators; just someone to pay, blood for blood.
Given that most of us are Christians or humanists to whom such ethical theories are anathema, it is really cool that this has been done and done well.
Well not everybody is rooting for her. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau was asked which GoT character scares him the most.
Answer: "Melisandre the Red priestess—she's a scary woman. There's also something about that type of power that Daenerys has. Most people believe she's doing the right thing, but she's burning people alive. She's got a chip on her shoulder. I don't want her to come across the Narrow Sea. She's going to burn thousands and thousands and thousands of people and have that self-righteous smirk on her face the whole time."
He's right, of course. Note however that my point stands... he himself notes she's a fan favorite. It's this paradox that's good storytelling. When we watched the Astapoor scene the first time, everybody in the room I was in was cheering for her (we repeated it for good measure). It's only after, when you think about the implications, that you realize how really scary she is.
I cannot understand your ethics. How is it morally wrong to allow slaves who have been imprisoned by people from birth, forced into an army and FORCED to kill a baby in front of its mother in order to prove they have been imbued with the necessary level of dispassionate cruelty to be part of its unpaid slave army, to get revenge on their captors???
It would be morally wrong to walk past Astapor and do nothing. Or comply with the dragon trade. If you suggest she should have allowed the slavers to continue raising their slave army, I consider you morally dubious.
You sir took the words right out of my mouth. I just hope she doesn't change... Right now she has a genuine sense of compassion; and while I like to think that she couldn't become too power hungry or experience some major character shift, I've given up thinking I know exactly how someone will turn out in this series...
For now though, Team Dany all the way. She honestly is one of the most moral characters in the show right now with some exceptions. Her strong hand is only a trait of a great ruler if you ask me.
On June 07 2013 01:20 Jockmcplop wrote: Yeah Dany's got one thing that Robb/Ned never had. The girl is pure badass.
(dragons too)
She's a lot more ruthless and not as naive.
I actually think this is one of the real signs of mastery about this show immersing us in ancient culture: that people still root for Dany. She massacred every defenseless adult (male? maybe females too?) in Astapoor and we're not even asking what happened to "every man who holds the whip" in Yunkai are we? And yet, after both scenes, we were seriously rooting for her. Hell, we cheered when she burned a witch and locked her favorite handmaiden in a vault to die of thirst. Why?
Because we see a world of pain--which is the world as it really is--and we buy into the theory of retributive justice (often corporate) without so much as a thought. Notice how many people are asking for Lannister or Tyrell blood after this... not necessarily the perpetrators; just someone to pay, blood for blood.
Given that most of us are Christians or humanists to whom such ethical theories are anathema, it is really cool that this has been done and done well.
Whoah what are you guys talking about? I don't recall Dany having innocent people killed in Astapor. Only the people who kept them as slaves. That's fucking awesome. Same for Yunkai, the hell is the problem with what she did there? The other two examples you have conveniently left out that they betrayed her trust first (iirc).
There's nothing wrong with someone who takes literally zero bullshit from people, as long as when they have no reason to, they don't inflict suffering and pain (ie Joffrey). The fact that she frees slaves and then offers them either to join her or to be free and leave is not a 'clever trick' to make simple people like her. It's one of the only genuinely virtuous actions performed in this entire story. Jaime killing the king and the Hound saving Sansa are the other major ones (though I've probably forgotten something else).
Not only does Dany have the conscience to make her admirable, she also has one hell of a set of balls. Not only is she virtuous, she is also not a weakling and is not a doormat.
On June 07 2013 01:20 Jockmcplop wrote: Yeah Dany's got one thing that Robb/Ned never had. The girl is pure badass.
(dragons too)
She's a lot more ruthless and not as naive.
I actually think this is one of the real signs of mastery about this show immersing us in ancient culture: that people still root for Dany. She massacred every defenseless adult (male? maybe females too?) in Astapoor and we're not even asking what happened to "every man who holds the whip" in Yunkai are we? And yet, after both scenes, we were seriously rooting for her. Hell, we cheered when she burned a witch and locked her favorite handmaiden in a vault to die of thirst. Why?
Because we see a world of pain--which is the world as it really is--and we buy into the theory of retributive justice (often corporate) without so much as a thought. Notice how many people are asking for Lannister or Tyrell blood after this... not necessarily the perpetrators; just someone to pay, blood for blood.
Given that most of us are Christians or humanists to whom such ethical theories are anathema, it is really cool that this has been done and done well.
Well not everybody is rooting for her. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau was asked which GoT character scares him the most.
Answer: "Melisandre the Red priestess—she's a scary woman. There's also something about that type of power that Daenerys has. Most people believe she's doing the right thing, but she's burning people alive. She's got a chip on her shoulder. I don't want her to come across the Narrow Sea. She's going to burn thousands and thousands and thousands of people and have that self-righteous smirk on her face the whole time."
He's right, of course. Note however that my point stands... he himself notes she's a fan favorite. It's this paradox that's good storytelling. When we watched the Astapoor scene the first time, everybody in the room I was in was cheering for her (we repeated it for good measure). It's only after, when you think about the implications, that you realize how really scary she is.
I cannot understand your ethics. How is it morally wrong to allow slaves who have been imprisoned by people from birth, forced into an army and FORCED to kill a baby in front of its mother in order to prove they have been imbued with the necessary level of dispassionate cruelty to be part of its unpaid slave army, to get revenge on their captors???
I didn't say innocent. I said defenseless. And slaveholding is (historically) a communal sin. Do you really think it morally justifiable in real life to massacre the entire adult population of 100 CE Rome or 1850 Savannah, Georgia? And yet we root for her. Most of us are probably even against the death penalty... and all against execution by fire... and yet Dany burned a witch and attacked a city with dragons... hell, she was complicit in her brother's execution by molten gold.
All I'm saying is it's cool that the show gets us in-universe enough to think as people in ancient times did about these things. In the BCEs, annihilating the adult population of a city for its sins was more or less accepted and practiced. It's amazing, and a feat of storytelling, that they got us on board with it.
Edit: Oh, for what she should have done? Gone to the UN and asked nicely?
On June 07 2013 01:20 Jockmcplop wrote: Yeah Dany's got one thing that Robb/Ned never had. The girl is pure badass.
(dragons too)
She's a lot more ruthless and not as naive.
I actually think this is one of the real signs of mastery about this show immersing us in ancient culture: that people still root for Dany. She massacred every defenseless adult (male? maybe females too?) in Astapoor and we're not even asking what happened to "every man who holds the whip" in Yunkai are we? And yet, after both scenes, we were seriously rooting for her. Hell, we cheered when she burned a witch and locked her favorite handmaiden in a vault to die of thirst. Why?
Because we see a world of pain--which is the world as it really is--and we buy into the theory of retributive justice (often corporate) without so much as a thought. Notice how many people are asking for Lannister or Tyrell blood after this... not necessarily the perpetrators; just someone to pay, blood for blood.
Given that most of us are Christians or humanists to whom such ethical theories are anathema, it is really cool that this has been done and done well.
Whoah what are you guys talking about? I don't recall Dany having innocent people killed in Astapor. Only the people who kept them as slaves. That's fucking awesome. Same for Yunkai, the hell is the problem with what she did there? The other two examples you have conveniently left out that they betrayed her trust first (iirc).
There's nothing wrong with someone who takes literally zero bullshit from people, as long as when they have no reason to, they don't inflict suffering and pain (ie Joffrey). The fact that she frees slaves and then offers them either to join her or to be free and leave is not a 'clever trick' to make simple people like her. It's one of the only genuinely virtuous actions performed in this entire story. Jaime killing the king and the Hound saving Sansa are the other major ones (though I've probably forgotten something else).
Not only does Dany have the conscience to make her admirable, she also has one hell of a set of balls. Not only is she virtuous, she is also not a weakling and is not a doormat.
On June 07 2013 02:13 Yoav wrote:
On June 07 2013 02:02 Redox wrote:
On June 07 2013 01:52 Yoav wrote:
On June 07 2013 01:24 Dreamer.T wrote:
On June 07 2013 01:20 Jockmcplop wrote: Yeah Dany's got one thing that Robb/Ned never had. The girl is pure badass.
(dragons too)
She's a lot more ruthless and not as naive.
I actually think this is one of the real signs of mastery about this show immersing us in ancient culture: that people still root for Dany. She massacred every defenseless adult (male? maybe females too?) in Astapoor and we're not even asking what happened to "every man who holds the whip" in Yunkai are we? And yet, after both scenes, we were seriously rooting for her. Hell, we cheered when she burned a witch and locked her favorite handmaiden in a vault to die of thirst. Why?
Because we see a world of pain--which is the world as it really is--and we buy into the theory of retributive justice (often corporate) without so much as a thought. Notice how many people are asking for Lannister or Tyrell blood after this... not necessarily the perpetrators; just someone to pay, blood for blood.
Given that most of us are Christians or humanists to whom such ethical theories are anathema, it is really cool that this has been done and done well.
Well not everybody is rooting for her. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau was asked which GoT character scares him the most.
Answer: "Melisandre the Red priestess—she's a scary woman. There's also something about that type of power that Daenerys has. Most people believe she's doing the right thing, but she's burning people alive. She's got a chip on her shoulder. I don't want her to come across the Narrow Sea. She's going to burn thousands and thousands and thousands of people and have that self-righteous smirk on her face the whole time."
He's right, of course. Note however that my point stands... he himself notes she's a fan favorite. It's this paradox that's good storytelling. When we watched the Astapoor scene the first time, everybody in the room I was in was cheering for her (we repeated it for good measure). It's only after, when you think about the implications, that you realize how really scary she is.
I cannot understand your ethics. How is it morally wrong to allow slaves who have been imprisoned by people from birth, forced into an army and FORCED to kill a baby in front of its mother in order to prove they have been imbued with the necessary level of dispassionate cruelty to be part of its unpaid slave army, to get revenge on their captors???
It would be morally wrong to walk past Astapor and do nothing. Or comply with the dragon trade. If you suggest she should have allowed the slavers to continue raising their slave army, I consider you morally dubious.
You sir took the words right out of my mouth. I just hope she doesn't change... Right now she has a genuine sense of compassion; and while I like to think that she couldn't become too power hungry or experience some major character shift, I've given up thinking I know exactly how someone will turn out in this series...
For now though, Team Dany all the way. She honestly is one of the most moral characters in the show right now with some exceptions. Her strong hand is only a trait of a great ruler if you ask me.
Hey, I'm rooting for her too. It's a harsh world, and she's taking it by the balls. But not because she's exactly "compassionate." It's that she burns for justice, and there are worse faults to have.
EPT
