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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. | ||
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
On June 07 2013 08:20 SamsungStar wrote: No. Get it through your head that there is no such thing as absolute right and wrong. Ugh since when did utter moral relativism become so popular? | ||
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Enox
Germany1667 Posts
this is sooo good.. love it! | ||
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SamsungStar
United States912 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12450 Posts
Yeah, the characters in Game of Thrones aren't good or evil. But that doesn't mean that they are "grey" or whatever, that there isn't good or evil in the story. When Jaime is jumping in the bear pit to save Brienne, he's doing a good action. When Jaime saves King's Landing from Aerys, he's doing a good action. That doesn't mean attempting to kill Bran is forgivable, or in a grey moral area, or whatever. The point is that the same people can do both good things and evil things. Saying there's no good or no evil in the characters of this show is completely missing the point. It's concluding the exact opposite of what's being shown to us. | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
On June 07 2013 08:32 SamsungStar wrote: If slavery is an absolute wrong, so is murder. And so is making condescending comments like 1st year uni moral etc etc. If you disagree with people then state your reasons. I don't follow you. Murder is not always wrong, sometimes it's necessary and right, for example in self defence. You can't use slavery in self defence. On June 07 2013 08:34 Nebuchad wrote: I mean it's not that complex. Yeah, the characters in Game of Thrones aren't good or evil. But that doesn't mean that they are "grey" or whatever, that there isn't good or evil in the story. When Jaime is jumping in the bear pit to save Brienne, he's doing a good action. When Jaime saves King's Landing from Aerys, he's doing a good action. That doesn't mean attempting to kill Bran is forgivable, or in a grey moral area, or whatever. The point is that the same people can do both good things and evil things. Saying there's no good or no evil in the characters of this show is completely missing the point. It's concluding the exact opposite of what's being shown to us. Yes, I agree. Good and evil are things that exist in everyone in different balances. There happens to be quite a lot of good in Dany, mixed with a bit of ruthlessness. She is still the 'goodest' major player still left alive. Granted there are plenty of characters who have shown not a single bit of malice and still performed good actions. But of the people who lead armies and have a legit chance of taking the iron throne, Dany is the one to root for if you are hoping for a just, courageous and caring ruler. Although I do have no idea if Stannis would be good...we don't really know much about Stannis tbf. | ||
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SergioCQH
United States143 Posts
On June 07 2013 08:34 sc4k wrote: I don't follow you. Murder is not always wrong, sometimes it's necessary and right, for example in self defence. You can't use slavery in self defence. Killing in self defense is not murder. It's killing in self-defense. Murder is by definition wrongful. | ||
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FallDownMarigold
United States3710 Posts
On June 07 2013 08:32 SamsungStar wrote: If slavery is an absolute wrong, so is murder. And so is making condescending comments like 1st year uni moral etc etc. If you disagree with people then state your reasons. Revisit Jurgen Habermas' literature on the human species ethic. Regardless of culturally engrained moral values the core human species ethic dictates that individuals have the natural right to moral autonomy. Slavery always violates the human species ethic. There is no justification for it regardless of particular cultural values. | ||
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SergioCQH
United States143 Posts
On June 07 2013 08:37 FallDownMarigold wrote: Revisit Jurgen Habermas' literature on the human species ethic. Regardless of culturally engrained moral values the core human species ethic dictates that individuals have the natural right to moral autonomy. Slavery always violates the human species ethic. There is no justification for it regardless of particular cultural values. Actually, Kant was the first to argue that autonomy is the ultimate moral good. Slavery is wrong according to Kantian theory because it violates the autonomy of the slave. The other major ethical theory is utilitarianism. According to act utilitarianism, slavery might be justifiable in rare cases. Rule utilitarianism would reject any slavery altogether. | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
On June 07 2013 08:36 SergioCQH wrote: Killing in self defense is not murder. It's killing in self-defense. Murder is by definition wrongful. Good point. | ||
Live2Win
United States6657 Posts
On June 07 2013 08:27 Enox wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbEhByk4Icg this is sooo good.. love it! that is the best thing i've ever seen from that group (except maybe the key & peele battle) I lost it at "cave sex" edit: oh shit nvm i thought this was the same group that did Epic Rap Battles of history. Shit's so good though. | ||
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On June 07 2013 08:27 Enox wrote: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbEhByk4Icg this is sooo good.. love it! Absolutely amazing! I think I will watch this like 10 more times now. :D | ||
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sc4k
United Kingdom5454 Posts
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Redox
Germany24794 Posts
On June 07 2013 08:56 sc4k wrote: Khaleesi's verse was my favourite, really managed to cover all the plot with a very small amount of sentences :D I really lost it at "Khaleesi". :D | ||
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Dazed.
Canada3301 Posts
On June 07 2013 08:14 SamsungStar wrote: You mention the reality of an objective good and then proceed entirely to talk about morality as if its nothing but a cultural product which says nothing about inherent rights and duties. The fuck man.I think some people are projecting too much of their need for good guy/bad guy paradigms onto the story. If you actually look at the content with a critical eye, there are very few characters which can objectively be called good. Especially not the Starks. To the Slaver Cities like Yunkai, Meereen, etc, Dany is completely barbaric. She reneges on deals, acts excessively belligerent and self-entitled, and unjustly massacres the rightful owners of slaves. To the slavers, it is normal to take prisoners of war or the children of slaves and sell them as property. That is the custom of their culture. It's Dany who is imposing her own arbitrary values on them and acting in a really despicable fashion. People are just reading her actions through a modern-day Eurocentric lens and trying to paint her as the good guy. Hell, GRRM might be trying to do that too. But to me, she's just like everybody else: Someone who uses the values she's internalized to try to reach her goals. Danny is obviously one of the better characters, but I agree with others in that she acts unduly cruel at times. Robb and Ned were probably the only characters who I can actually cast no real aspersions towards. Even Robb marrying talisa for love was the morally justified thing to do, at least from his naive perspective where the Freys could still be negotiated and reasoned with. If he had known the imminent danger I highly doubt he would of married her. | ||
Whitewing
United States7483 Posts
On June 07 2013 08:34 sc4k wrote: I don't follow you. Murder is not always wrong, sometimes it's necessary and right, for example in self defence. You can't use slavery in self defence. Yes, I agree. Good and evil are things that exist in everyone in different balances. There happens to be quite a lot of good in Dany, mixed with a bit of ruthlessness. She is still the 'goodest' major player still left alive. Granted there are plenty of characters who have shown not a single bit of malice and still performed good actions. But of the people who lead armies and have a legit chance of taking the iron throne, Dany is the one to root for if you are hoping for a just, courageous and caring ruler. Although I do have no idea if Stannis would be good...we don't really know much about Stannis tbf. Killing =/= murder | ||
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
don't know if they wrote that in the books, but the chain mail part was my favorite part of the whole episode. Amazingly well done | ||
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SamsungStar
United States912 Posts
On June 07 2013 09:02 Dazed_Spy wrote: You mention the reality of an objective good and then proceed entirely to talk about morality as if its nothing but a cultural product which says nothing about inherent rights and duties. The fuck man. Danny is obviously one of the better characters, but I agree with others in that she acts unduly cruel at times. Robb and Ned were probably the only characters who I can actually cast no real aspersions towards. Even Robb marrying talisa for love was the morally justified thing to do, at least from his naive perspective where the Freys could still be negotiated and reasoned with. If he had known the imminent danger I highly doubt he would of married her. Even without knowing the imminent danger, he knew full well that it would have a political cost that could very well mean the lives of many of his subjects. It can definitely be argued that Robb marrying Talisa was the immoral thing to do. And again, this is where I think people aren't understanding. Dany by modern day standards is one of the more "moral" characters, but by the standards of the world in which SHE lives, she is NOT. I don't get why this is such a difficult concept to understand. Try to divorce yourself from the world of 21st century Earth and put yourself in Essos and you would be able to see why many people of that land would consider her a monster. Which is again why the whole concept of good/evil is relative. Greeks had a system of slavery that still allowed a high degree of autonomy to the slaves. Some slaves were even better off than freemen under the Greek system. The whole Unsullied thing is obviously an imitation of the Janissary system, a system which eventually saw the Janissaries overthrow their masters due to the many concessions they were able to extract from their erstwhile rulers. Slavery, like everything else, is not a matter of black and white. | ||
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Irrelevant Label
United States596 Posts
Edit: now it's a listen off, the latter words might have been "cost us" not "crossbows"... | ||
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Nebuchad
Switzerland12450 Posts
On June 07 2013 09:32 Irrelevant Label wrote: Third watching, and I just made out what the Frey who later stabs Talisa to death told her when she remarked on the band's skill. "Almost as good as with their crossbows." That is awesome. ~38:40 I was pretty sure he said something about how much they cost, didn't he? | ||
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Knighthawkbro
United States183 Posts
On June 07 2013 08:52 Redox wrote: Absolutely amazing! I think I will watch this like 10 more times now. :D I actually would listen to an extended stark cut, that was fantastic | ||
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