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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On June 05 2013 22:59 DertoQq wrote:
I would like to go back to something I asked earlier.
Being married to Sansa, can Tyrion has any claim to the North now that Robb is dead ? Or it doesn't work since he isn't directly related to the stark family ?
Sortof. His son will have claim to the north, and he'd be his guardian until he becomes of age.
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On June 05 2013 22:52 Quexana wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 22:40 CatfooD wrote:
Didn't Brienne beat Loras Tyrell in a fight in Highgarden at the beginning of season 2 or something? From the dialog and context clues, it seems like Brienne, Loras, Eddard, Jaime, and Ser Barriston are all the best swordsmen. We don't really know about how good Jon Snow, Jorah Mormont, Darrio, and Grey Worm are in comparison. Loras is a jouster. With a lance, he's a god. With a sword, he's good, but beatable. Loras was made for the cavalry, not the infantry. IMHO the best swordsman are Sir Barristan, Jaime (pre-dismemberment), Gregor Clegane, and possibly Bronn.
i think sandor is close to (if not) on equal footing with gregor.. he turned that decapitation dodge into kneeling fealty to the king
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On June 05 2013 23:01 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 22:59 DertoQq wrote:
I would like to go back to something I asked earlier.
Being married to Sansa, can Tyrion has any claim to the North now that Robb is dead ? Or it doesn't work since he isn't directly related to the stark family ? Sortof. His son will have claim to the north, and he'd be his guardian until he becomes of age.
I wonder if Bran or Ricken are revealed to be alive if they would have priority. Bran said to Ricken, "your the heir of winterfell if Rob dies". Im assuming John Snow wouldn't have any claim right?
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On June 05 2013 23:01 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 22:59 DertoQq wrote:
I would like to go back to something I asked earlier.
Being married to Sansa, can Tyrion has any claim to the North now that Robb is dead ? Or it doesn't work since he isn't directly related to the stark family ? Sortof. His son will have claim to the north, and he'd be his guardian until he becomes of age.
So nothing serious until he has a son ? (which might take a while :D)
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Bronn is the best there is (he just doesn't boast about it), he has proven his martial prowess and experience time and again - worthy of note is the fact that he was willing to take on 2-3 members of the King's Guard with just his knife. I have no idea why anyone has brought Jon into "best swordsmen" discussion, the guy is pretty much fresh (compared to other mentioned people who are seasoned veterans with the sword) and quite reluctant to harm others. I wouldn't give him much chances against anyone discussed in this matter.
My favorite guys are Bronn, Sandor and Jorah. Never liked Gregor as a character and I don't give a damn about Barristan.
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On June 05 2013 23:06 FoxShine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 23:01 Excludos wrote:On June 05 2013 22:59 DertoQq wrote:
I would like to go back to something I asked earlier.
Being married to Sansa, can Tyrion has any claim to the North now that Robb is dead ? Or it doesn't work since he isn't directly related to the stark family ? Sortof. His son will have claim to the north, and he'd be his guardian until he becomes of age. I wonder if Bran or Ricken are revealed to be alive if they would have priority. Bran said to Ricken, "your the heir of winterfell if Rob dies". Im assuming John Snow wouldn't have any claim right?
He is on the Watch, so no. As a bastard he may have had something, but not anymore.
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On June 05 2013 22:40 CatfooD wrote:
Didn't Brienne beat Loras Tyrell in a fight in Highgarden at the beginning of season 2 or something? From the dialog and context clues, it seems like Brienne, Loras, Eddard, Jaime, and Ser Barriston are all the best swordsmen. We don't really know about how good Jon Snow, Jorah Mormont, Darrio, and Grey Worm are in comparison. From what I gathered, the Unsullied don't really know what leadership is, so they probably picked Grey Worm mostly on fighting skills, which makes him pretty fucking badass. Dario seems generally OP. He apparently beat the other leaders 1v2, and the leaders were definitely good.
Jorah won one tournament back in Westeros, but aside from that he wasn't exceptional. He's been training with dothraki for a while, and he is still a trained knight. As for Jon Snow, he's green and young and foolish, but he had a master-at-arms, which puts him years ahead of most Crows or Wildlings, and he has Valyrian steel, which cuts through furs like butter, but the shitty wildling weapons can barely scratch him. He wouldn't stand a chance against Jamie-two-hand.
Brienne seems legitimately better than all of them at 1v1 fighting. Only a badass like Barristan Selmy could beat her.
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On June 05 2013 22:40 CatfooD wrote:
Didn't Brienne beat Loras Tyrell in a fight in Highgarden at the beginning of season 2 or something? From the dialog and context clues, it seems like Brienne, Loras, Eddard, Jaime, and Ser Barriston are all the best swordsmen. We don't really know about how good Jon Snow, Jorah Mormont, Darrio, and Grey Worm are in comparison.
There was a tourney under King Renly when he was marching his army towards the capital, Loras and Brienne were the last two standing and she beat him into submission, as a reward she gets a wish.
From your list, Jon and Grey Worm are probably the worst. Jorah seems to have survived his share of battles, event went through the breach at Pyke just after the mad priest, AND he held his own against the totally different fighting style of a Dothraki.
Loras was getting destroyed by the Mountain at the jousting tourney.
Brienne seems not to have any experience in battle, if I really needed a champion to fight a duel for my life, I'd probably stick either to the Mountain or Jaime, depending on the size of the other champion.
And I am aware of the Bronn fight, but I'm talking about a proper duel, where you need to parry, instead of hiding behind a column.
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On June 05 2013 23:15 Rimstalker wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 22:40 CatfooD wrote:
Didn't Brienne beat Loras Tyrell in a fight in Highgarden at the beginning of season 2 or something? From the dialog and context clues, it seems like Brienne, Loras, Eddard, Jaime, and Ser Barriston are all the best swordsmen. We don't really know about how good Jon Snow, Jorah Mormont, Darrio, and Grey Worm are in comparison. There was a tourney under King Renly when he was marching his army towards the capital, Loras and Brienne were the last two standing and she beat him into submission, as a reward she gets a wish. From your list, Jon and Grey Worm are probably the worst. Jorah seems to have survived his share of battles, event went through the breach at Pyke just after the mad priest, AND he held his own against the totally different fighting style of a Dothraki. Loras was getting destroyed by the Mountain at the jousting tourney. Brienne seems not to have any experience in battle, if I really needed a champion to fight a duel for my life, I'd probably stick either to the Mountain or Jaime, depending on the size of the other champion. And I am aware of the Bronn fight, but I'm talking about a proper duel, where you need to parry, instead of hiding behind a column.
against the mountain, loras wasn't en garde, was on a horse (aka unable to dodge without falling,) and was unarmed
the mountain would still beat him if all of that wasn't the case, but that's no example of them fighting
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On June 05 2013 23:07 Manit0u wrote:
Bronn is the best there is (he just doesn't boast about it), he has proven his martial prowess and experience time and again - worthy of note is the fact that he was willing to take on 2-3 members of the King's Guard with just his knife. I have no idea why anyone has brought Jon into "best swordsmen" discussion, the guy is pretty much fresh (compared to other mentioned people who are seasoned veterans with the sword) and quite reluctant to harm others. I wouldn't give him much chances against anyone discussed in this matter.
My favorite guys are Bronn, Sandor and Jorah. Never liked Gregor as a character and I don't give a damn about Barristan.
The kingsguard in the current state of the series is far from the best fighters. The newest addition (s?) were picked by Joffrey and Cersei, and they almost shit their pants collectively when Barristan reached for his weapon when Joffrey was dismissing him. Syrio Forel was also not afraid and that was with a wooden sword.
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On June 05 2013 23:07 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 23:06 FoxShine wrote:On June 05 2013 23:01 Excludos wrote:On June 05 2013 22:59 DertoQq wrote:
I would like to go back to something I asked earlier.
Being married to Sansa, can Tyrion has any claim to the North now that Robb is dead ? Or it doesn't work since he isn't directly related to the stark family ? Sortof. His son will have claim to the north, and he'd be his guardian until he becomes of age. I wonder if Bran or Ricken are revealed to be alive if they would have priority. Bran said to Ricken, "your the heir of winterfell if Rob dies". Im assuming John Snow wouldn't have any claim right? He is on the Watch, so no. As a bastard he may have had something, but not anymore.
Bran and Rickon does take priority over any son Sansa might have. But they are presumes dead right now, and most likely they would be dead for real very quickly if anyone found out they where alive. Theon might just have saved their lives unknowingly.
Its not unheard of for bastards to take claims, but for that to happen Joffrey would have to first release him from the Nights Watch (fat chance), and then proclaim him a real Stark (also fat chance).
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you misunderstand, i'm not saying ned is better or even as good. what i'm saying is that you are overestimating the difference in their abilities based on nothing but conjecture
i did rewatch the fight. jaime is also grunting and gritting his teeth. i watched closely and saw jaime smile once when he dodged a close slash to his face. obviously he's more likely to smile than ned, as he just ganged up on ned and killed his guards (who were his friends iirc)
Jaime smiles, because Jaimie loves fighting. Jaime is at his happiest when he is doing what he does best. Ned doesn't love fighting, he fights only when he must. And while I think Jaime is a better 1v1 swordsman than Ned, if I were planning a war, I'd rather have Ned on my side than Jaime. A good commander is better than a hundred good swordsmen and Ned is a flat out better commander. Ned is a better strategist and tactician. He inspires true loyalty from the troops under his command. Whatever loyalty Jaime inspires is derived out of fear of Jaime's father. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't even matter who the better swordsman is. They're fighting a war, not a 1v1 tournament. The Game of Thrones is not a contest of steel, but a contest of wits. Robb Stark is probably a better swordsman than Tywin Lannister, yet Tywin defeated Robb. Littlefinger is one of the worst swordsmen in the entire show, yet he's becoming a major player in the Game of Thrones anyway. Dany has never so much as lifted a sword in the show, yet she commands dragons and an ever increasing army. Being a great swordsman isn't that big a deal on this show, it's not going to keep you safe. This isn't Dragonball Z where the fate of the world is decided by which fighter has a higher power level. This is a game of power where as Varys says even "a very small man can cast a very large shadow."
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On June 05 2013 22:52 Quexana wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 22:40 CatfooD wrote:
Didn't Brienne beat Loras Tyrell in a fight in Highgarden at the beginning of season 2 or something? From the dialog and context clues, it seems like Brienne, Loras, Eddard, Jaime, and Ser Barriston are all the best swordsmen. We don't really know about how good Jon Snow, Jorah Mormont, Darrio, and Grey Worm are in comparison. Loras is a jouster. With a lance, he's a god. With a sword, he's good, but beatable. Loras was made for the cavalry, not the infantry. IMHO the best swordsman are Sir Barristan, Jaime (pre-dismemberment), Gregor Clegane, and possibly Bronn.
What do people think about Serio? The best master swordsman from Bravos that Eddard hired to teach Arya how to "dance". I was under the impression that his unique style is superior to all the other great swordsmen of Westeros, or at least that's what he seemed to think about himself.
Was he just sort of cocky, or was he actually considered among the best swordsmen too? Also, I'm hoping he makes a return. It wasn't clear whether he died or lived while defending Arya from King's Landing guards ....with just a wooden trainer sword
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On June 05 2013 23:58 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 22:52 Quexana wrote:On June 05 2013 22:40 CatfooD wrote:
Didn't Brienne beat Loras Tyrell in a fight in Highgarden at the beginning of season 2 or something? From the dialog and context clues, it seems like Brienne, Loras, Eddard, Jaime, and Ser Barriston are all the best swordsmen. We don't really know about how good Jon Snow, Jorah Mormont, Darrio, and Grey Worm are in comparison. Loras is a jouster. With a lance, he's a god. With a sword, he's good, but beatable. Loras was made for the cavalry, not the infantry. IMHO the best swordsman are Sir Barristan, Jaime (pre-dismemberment), Gregor Clegane, and possibly Bronn. What do people think about Serio? The best master swordsman from Bravos that Eddard hired to teach Arya how to "dance". I was under the impression that his unique style is superior to all the other great swordsmen of Westeros, or at least that's what he seemed to think about himself. Was he just sort of cocky, or was he actually considered among the best swordsmen too? Also, I'm hoping he makes a return. It wasn't clear whether he died or lived while defending Arya from King's Landing guards
I think that the list of "best" candidates would include
1) Jaime Lannister (pre-hand loss)
2) Brienne of Tarth
3) Barristan Selmy
4) Jorah Mormont
5) Loras Tyrell
6) Syrio
Other candidates that could be but have less of a claim based on what we've seen are
7) Bronn
8) Sandor Clegane
But out of all of these people, you really can't claim anyone's superiority over the other, except for Brienne > Loras. Brienne only beat a weak, exhausted, chained-up Jaime, and none of the other individuals have fought so far.
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On June 05 2013 23:31 Excludos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 23:07 SKC wrote:On June 05 2013 23:06 FoxShine wrote:On June 05 2013 23:01 Excludos wrote:On June 05 2013 22:59 DertoQq wrote:
I would like to go back to something I asked earlier.
Being married to Sansa, can Tyrion has any claim to the North now that Robb is dead ? Or it doesn't work since he isn't directly related to the stark family ? Sortof. His son will have claim to the north, and he'd be his guardian until he becomes of age. I wonder if Bran or Ricken are revealed to be alive if they would have priority. Bran said to Ricken, "your the heir of winterfell if Rob dies". Im assuming John Snow wouldn't have any claim right? He is on the Watch, so no. As a bastard he may have had something, but not anymore. Bran and Rickon does take priority over any son Sansa might have. But they are presumes dead right now, and most likely they would be dead for real very quickly if anyone found out they where alive. Theon might just have saved their lives unknowingly. Its not unheard of for bastards to take claims, but for that to happen Joffrey would have to first release him from the Nights Watch (fat chance), and then proclaim him a real Stark (also fat chance). Joffrey is not the only King in the realm.
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On June 05 2013 23:58 FallDownMarigold wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 22:52 Quexana wrote:On June 05 2013 22:40 CatfooD wrote:
Didn't Brienne beat Loras Tyrell in a fight in Highgarden at the beginning of season 2 or something? From the dialog and context clues, it seems like Brienne, Loras, Eddard, Jaime, and Ser Barriston are all the best swordsmen. We don't really know about how good Jon Snow, Jorah Mormont, Darrio, and Grey Worm are in comparison. Loras is a jouster. With a lance, he's a god. With a sword, he's good, but beatable. Loras was made for the cavalry, not the infantry. IMHO the best swordsman are Sir Barristan, Jaime (pre-dismemberment), Gregor Clegane, and possibly Bronn. What do people think about Serio? The best master swordsman from Bravos that Eddard hired to teach Arya how to "dance". I was under the impression that his unique style is superior to all the other great swordsmen of Westeros, or at least that's what he seemed to think about himself. Was he just sort of cocky, or was he actually considered among the best swordsmen too? Also, I'm hoping he makes a return. It wasn't clear whether he died or lived while defending Arya from King's Landing guards ....with just a wooden trainer sword
i think hes pretty much dead, no way you defy the kingsguard with kingsorders, and he didnt really have the time to run and hide like arya did.
also ned was a pretty good swordsman in his youth, just he lived in a time of even "better" swordsmen. one thing i always wondered about is why Robert, who was one of the fiercest warriors in his day, never inspired better knights to join his guard, only ser barristan and jaime were really "world class", i guess he killed them all?
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On June 06 2013 00:15 -Archangel- wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 23:31 Excludos wrote:On June 05 2013 23:07 SKC wrote:On June 05 2013 23:06 FoxShine wrote:On June 05 2013 23:01 Excludos wrote:On June 05 2013 22:59 DertoQq wrote:
I would like to go back to something I asked earlier.
Being married to Sansa, can Tyrion has any claim to the North now that Robb is dead ? Or it doesn't work since he isn't directly related to the stark family ? Sortof. His son will have claim to the north, and he'd be his guardian until he becomes of age. I wonder if Bran or Ricken are revealed to be alive if they would have priority. Bran said to Ricken, "your the heir of winterfell if Rob dies". Im assuming John Snow wouldn't have any claim right? He is on the Watch, so no. As a bastard he may have had something, but not anymore. Bran and Rickon does take priority over any son Sansa might have. But they are presumes dead right now, and most likely they would be dead for real very quickly if anyone found out they where alive. Theon might just have saved their lives unknowingly. Its not unheard of for bastards to take claims, but for that to happen Joffrey would have to first release him from the Nights Watch (fat chance), and then proclaim him a real Stark (also fat chance). Joffrey is not the only King in the realm.
Robert's bastard has plausible claim to the Iron Throne so I don't see why Ned's bastard wouldn't have similar claim to Winterfell.
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On June 06 2013 00:22 Ghost-z wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 00:15 -Archangel- wrote:On June 05 2013 23:31 Excludos wrote:On June 05 2013 23:07 SKC wrote:On June 05 2013 23:06 FoxShine wrote:On June 05 2013 23:01 Excludos wrote:On June 05 2013 22:59 DertoQq wrote:
I would like to go back to something I asked earlier.
Being married to Sansa, can Tyrion has any claim to the North now that Robb is dead ? Or it doesn't work since he isn't directly related to the stark family ? Sortof. His son will have claim to the north, and he'd be his guardian until he becomes of age. I wonder if Bran or Ricken are revealed to be alive if they would have priority. Bran said to Ricken, "your the heir of winterfell if Rob dies". Im assuming John Snow wouldn't have any claim right? He is on the Watch, so no. As a bastard he may have had something, but not anymore. Bran and Rickon does take priority over any son Sansa might have. But they are presumes dead right now, and most likely they would be dead for real very quickly if anyone found out they where alive. Theon might just have saved their lives unknowingly. Its not unheard of for bastards to take claims, but for that to happen Joffrey would have to first release him from the Nights Watch (fat chance), and then proclaim him a real Stark (also fat chance). Joffrey is not the only King in the realm. Robert's bastard has plausible claim to the Iron Throne so I don't see why Ned's bastard wouldn't have similar claim to Winterfell.
What makes you think Robert's bastard has plausible claim to the throne?
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Enough people find him a threat to exposing Joffrey that they want him dead. Melisandre believes he has the blood of a king and uses it in her spells. And after Stannis he is the only Baratheon who could make such a claim.
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On June 06 2013 00:30 Ghost-z wrote:
Enough people find him a threat to exposing Joffrey that they want him dead. Melisandre believes he has the blood of a king and uses it in her spells. And after Stannis he is the only Baratheon who could make such a claim.
that is true but jon is on the watch, even if he was trueborn son, he wouldnt have had a claim left.
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EPT
