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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
Poland3775 Posts
On June 05 2013 23:34 Quexana wrote:Show nested quote +
you misunderstand, i'm not saying ned is better or even as good. what i'm saying is that you are overestimating the difference in their abilities based on nothing but conjecture
i did rewatch the fight. jaime is also grunting and gritting his teeth. i watched closely and saw jaime smile once when he dodged a close slash to his face. obviously he's more likely to smile than ned, as he just ganged up on ned and killed his guards (who were his friends iirc)
Jaime smiles, because Jaimie loves fighting. Jaime is at his happiest when he is doing what he does best. Ned doesn't love fighting, he fights only when he must. And while I think Jaime is a better 1v1 swordsman than Ned, if I were planning a war, I'd rather have Ned on my side than Jaime. A good commander is better than a hundred good swordsmen and Ned is a flat out better commander. Ned is a better strategist and tactician. He inspires true loyalty from the troops under his command. Whatever loyalty Jaime inspires is derived out of fear of Jaime's father. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't even matter who the better swordsman is. They're fighting a war, not a 1v1 tournament. The Game of Thrones is not a contest of steel, but a contest of wits. Robb Stark is probably a better swordsman than Tywin Lannister, yet Tywin defeated Robb. Littlefinger is one of the worst swordsmen in the entire show, yet he's becoming a major player in the Game of Thrones anyway. Dany has never so much as lifted a sword in the show, yet she commands dragons and an ever increasing army. Being a great swordsman isn't that big a deal on this show, it's not going to keep you safe. This isn't Dragonball Z where the fate of the world is decided by which fighter has a higher power level. This is a game of power where as Varys says even "a very small man can cast a very large shadow."
It isn't indicated in TV series in any way that Ned Stark is even mediocre tactician and commander. He is respected by his closest and definitely is pictured as wise, experienced and calm man but he may be very crappy war leader. His crappy approach to politics in Kings' Landing indicate that he is no genius which is also a cap on his tactical skill. He is netiher NApoleon nor Alexander.
Also Jaime is at his happiest when he is doing his sister 
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On June 06 2013 00:36 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 23:34 Quexana wrote:
you misunderstand, i'm not saying ned is better or even as good. what i'm saying is that you are overestimating the difference in their abilities based on nothing but conjecture
i did rewatch the fight. jaime is also grunting and gritting his teeth. i watched closely and saw jaime smile once when he dodged a close slash to his face. obviously he's more likely to smile than ned, as he just ganged up on ned and killed his guards (who were his friends iirc)
Jaime smiles, because Jaimie loves fighting. Jaime is at his happiest when he is doing what he does best. Ned doesn't love fighting, he fights only when he must. And while I think Jaime is a better 1v1 swordsman than Ned, if I were planning a war, I'd rather have Ned on my side than Jaime. A good commander is better than a hundred good swordsmen and Ned is a flat out better commander. Ned is a better strategist and tactician. He inspires true loyalty from the troops under his command. Whatever loyalty Jaime inspires is derived out of fear of Jaime's father. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't even matter who the better swordsman is. They're fighting a war, not a 1v1 tournament. The Game of Thrones is not a contest of steel, but a contest of wits. Robb Stark is probably a better swordsman than Tywin Lannister, yet Tywin defeated Robb. Littlefinger is one of the worst swordsmen in the entire show, yet he's becoming a major player in the Game of Thrones anyway. Dany has never so much as lifted a sword in the show, yet she commands dragons and an ever increasing army. Being a great swordsman isn't that big a deal on this show, it's not going to keep you safe. This isn't Dragonball Z where the fate of the world is decided by which fighter has a higher power level. This is a game of power where as Varys says even "a very small man can cast a very large shadow." It isn't indicated in TV series in any way that Ned Stark is even mediocre tactician and commander. He is respected by his closest and definitely is pictured as wise, experienced and calm man but he may be very crappy war leader. His crappy approach to politics in Kings' Landing indicate that he is no genius which is also a cap on his tactical skill. He is netiher NApoleon nor Alexander. Also Jaime is at his happiest when he is doing his sister
The lore regarding Roberts Rebellion (you can watch these on youtube) regard him as a very skilled swordsmen as well as tactician. It becomes more obvious when Ser Barristan comments on how he slayed a dozen knights at the battle of the trident.
You have to understand, Robert and Ned were outnumbered during the rebellion by a solid chunk yet they were victorious; even without Tywin supporting either side the rebellion was out numbered and if they began losing even slightly then Tywin would have pledged to the King rather then sack the city.
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On June 06 2013 00:41 Hitch-22 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 00:36 nimdil wrote:On June 05 2013 23:34 Quexana wrote:
you misunderstand, i'm not saying ned is better or even as good. what i'm saying is that you are overestimating the difference in their abilities based on nothing but conjecture
i did rewatch the fight. jaime is also grunting and gritting his teeth. i watched closely and saw jaime smile once when he dodged a close slash to his face. obviously he's more likely to smile than ned, as he just ganged up on ned and killed his guards (who were his friends iirc)
Jaime smiles, because Jaimie loves fighting. Jaime is at his happiest when he is doing what he does best. Ned doesn't love fighting, he fights only when he must. And while I think Jaime is a better 1v1 swordsman than Ned, if I were planning a war, I'd rather have Ned on my side than Jaime. A good commander is better than a hundred good swordsmen and Ned is a flat out better commander. Ned is a better strategist and tactician. He inspires true loyalty from the troops under his command. Whatever loyalty Jaime inspires is derived out of fear of Jaime's father. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't even matter who the better swordsman is. They're fighting a war, not a 1v1 tournament. The Game of Thrones is not a contest of steel, but a contest of wits. Robb Stark is probably a better swordsman than Tywin Lannister, yet Tywin defeated Robb. Littlefinger is one of the worst swordsmen in the entire show, yet he's becoming a major player in the Game of Thrones anyway. Dany has never so much as lifted a sword in the show, yet she commands dragons and an ever increasing army. Being a great swordsman isn't that big a deal on this show, it's not going to keep you safe. This isn't Dragonball Z where the fate of the world is decided by which fighter has a higher power level. This is a game of power where as Varys says even "a very small man can cast a very large shadow." It isn't indicated in TV series in any way that Ned Stark is even mediocre tactician and commander. He is respected by his closest and definitely is pictured as wise, experienced and calm man but he may be very crappy war leader. His crappy approach to politics in Kings' Landing indicate that he is no genius which is also a cap on his tactical skill. He is netiher NApoleon nor Alexander. Also Jaime is at his happiest when he is doing his sister The lore regarding Roberts Rebellion (you can watch these on youtube) regard him as a very skilled swordsmen as well as tactician. It becomes more obvious when Ser Barristan comments on how he slayed a dozen knights at the battle of the trident. You have to understand, Robert and Ned were outnumbered during the rebellion by a solid chunk yet they were victorious; even without Tywin supporting either side the rebellion was out numbered and if they began losing even slightly then Tywin would have pledged to the King rather then sack the city.
Again due to the lore and the spoilers im not sure what I'm allowed to say. Ill just make the case that it could be argued that Ned was actually one of the best fighters ever, but underestimated, certainly prowess to match ser jamie, if you know the events of the rebellion and his sister.
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Oh god its the "best swordsman" discusson again. 
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On June 06 2013 00:58 UdderChaos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 00:41 Hitch-22 wrote:On June 06 2013 00:36 nimdil wrote:On June 05 2013 23:34 Quexana wrote:
you misunderstand, i'm not saying ned is better or even as good. what i'm saying is that you are overestimating the difference in their abilities based on nothing but conjecture
i did rewatch the fight. jaime is also grunting and gritting his teeth. i watched closely and saw jaime smile once when he dodged a close slash to his face. obviously he's more likely to smile than ned, as he just ganged up on ned and killed his guards (who were his friends iirc)
Jaime smiles, because Jaimie loves fighting. Jaime is at his happiest when he is doing what he does best. Ned doesn't love fighting, he fights only when he must. And while I think Jaime is a better 1v1 swordsman than Ned, if I were planning a war, I'd rather have Ned on my side than Jaime. A good commander is better than a hundred good swordsmen and Ned is a flat out better commander. Ned is a better strategist and tactician. He inspires true loyalty from the troops under his command. Whatever loyalty Jaime inspires is derived out of fear of Jaime's father. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't even matter who the better swordsman is. They're fighting a war, not a 1v1 tournament. The Game of Thrones is not a contest of steel, but a contest of wits. Robb Stark is probably a better swordsman than Tywin Lannister, yet Tywin defeated Robb. Littlefinger is one of the worst swordsmen in the entire show, yet he's becoming a major player in the Game of Thrones anyway. Dany has never so much as lifted a sword in the show, yet she commands dragons and an ever increasing army. Being a great swordsman isn't that big a deal on this show, it's not going to keep you safe. This isn't Dragonball Z where the fate of the world is decided by which fighter has a higher power level. This is a game of power where as Varys says even "a very small man can cast a very large shadow." It isn't indicated in TV series in any way that Ned Stark is even mediocre tactician and commander. He is respected by his closest and definitely is pictured as wise, experienced and calm man but he may be very crappy war leader. His crappy approach to politics in Kings' Landing indicate that he is no genius which is also a cap on his tactical skill. He is netiher NApoleon nor Alexander. Also Jaime is at his happiest when he is doing his sister The lore regarding Roberts Rebellion (you can watch these on youtube) regard him as a very skilled swordsmen as well as tactician. It becomes more obvious when Ser Barristan comments on how he slayed a dozen knights at the battle of the trident. You have to understand, Robert and Ned were outnumbered during the rebellion by a solid chunk yet they were victorious; even without Tywin supporting either side the rebellion was out numbered and if they began losing even slightly then Tywin would have pledged to the King rather then sack the city. Again due to the lore and the spoilers im not sure what I'm allowed to say. Ill just make the case that it could be argued that Ned was actually one of the best fighters ever, but underestimated, certainly prowess to match ser jamie, if you know the events of the rebellion and his sister.
Lore is allowed as long as it remains within the story arc given by GoT in their videos I believe (the bonus content found on youtube)
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On June 06 2013 01:07 Redox wrote:Oh god its the "best swordsman" discusson again.
i prefer who has the nicest ass discussion as well :D but sadly 2 contenders were killed off. im surprised there are no reactions about that on the tubes. Damn you Martin & scriptwriter!
in that category, id say tyrion is the best swordfighter, closely followed by Theon (pre-amputation), Loras and Renly (pre-fraticide)
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On June 06 2013 00:41 Hitch-22 wrote:
You have to understand, Robert and Ned were outnumbered during the rebellion by a solid chunk yet they were victorious; even without Tywin supporting either side the rebellion was out numbered and if they began losing even slightly then Tywin would have pledged to the King rather then sack the city.
http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Robert's_Rebellion
The wiki says that the war was Baratheon, Stark, Tully and Arryn against Targaryen, Tyrell and Martell. Looking at the wiki it describes Dorne (kingdom of the Martells) as mostly arid, so I imagine they don't have too much power. The Targaryen had Dragonstone which as we know isn't the most powerful holding by a long shot only the Tyrells seem to have real powers.
So I think the rebels could have been on equal grounds, maybe even have the advantage, against the loyalists.
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On June 06 2013 00:58 UdderChaos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 00:41 Hitch-22 wrote:On June 06 2013 00:36 nimdil wrote:On June 05 2013 23:34 Quexana wrote:
you misunderstand, i'm not saying ned is better or even as good. what i'm saying is that you are overestimating the difference in their abilities based on nothing but conjecture
i did rewatch the fight. jaime is also grunting and gritting his teeth. i watched closely and saw jaime smile once when he dodged a close slash to his face. obviously he's more likely to smile than ned, as he just ganged up on ned and killed his guards (who were his friends iirc)
Jaime smiles, because Jaimie loves fighting. Jaime is at his happiest when he is doing what he does best. Ned doesn't love fighting, he fights only when he must. And while I think Jaime is a better 1v1 swordsman than Ned, if I were planning a war, I'd rather have Ned on my side than Jaime. A good commander is better than a hundred good swordsmen and Ned is a flat out better commander. Ned is a better strategist and tactician. He inspires true loyalty from the troops under his command. Whatever loyalty Jaime inspires is derived out of fear of Jaime's father. In the grand scheme of things, it doesn't even matter who the better swordsman is. They're fighting a war, not a 1v1 tournament. The Game of Thrones is not a contest of steel, but a contest of wits. Robb Stark is probably a better swordsman than Tywin Lannister, yet Tywin defeated Robb. Littlefinger is one of the worst swordsmen in the entire show, yet he's becoming a major player in the Game of Thrones anyway. Dany has never so much as lifted a sword in the show, yet she commands dragons and an ever increasing army. Being a great swordsman isn't that big a deal on this show, it's not going to keep you safe. This isn't Dragonball Z where the fate of the world is decided by which fighter has a higher power level. This is a game of power where as Varys says even "a very small man can cast a very large shadow." It isn't indicated in TV series in any way that Ned Stark is even mediocre tactician and commander. He is respected by his closest and definitely is pictured as wise, experienced and calm man but he may be very crappy war leader. His crappy approach to politics in Kings' Landing indicate that he is no genius which is also a cap on his tactical skill. He is netiher NApoleon nor Alexander. Also Jaime is at his happiest when he is doing his sister The lore regarding Roberts Rebellion (you can watch these on youtube) regard him as a very skilled swordsmen as well as tactician. It becomes more obvious when Ser Barristan comments on how he slayed a dozen knights at the battle of the trident. You have to understand, Robert and Ned were outnumbered during the rebellion by a solid chunk yet they were victorious; even without Tywin supporting either side the rebellion was out numbered and if they began losing even slightly then Tywin would have pledged to the King rather then sack the city. Again due to the lore and the spoilers im not sure what I'm allowed to say. Ill just make the case that it could be argued that Ned was actually one of the best fighters ever, but underestimated, certainly prowess to match ser jamie, if you know the events of the rebellion and his sister.
GoT Wiki is allowed provided you don't cite the "In the Books" section, while the History and Lore of Westeros series put out by HBO every DVD season (and found on Youtube) is also acceptable, from what I can tell.
On June 06 2013 01:29 CrimsonLotus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 00:41 Hitch-22 wrote:
You have to understand, Robert and Ned were outnumbered during the rebellion by a solid chunk yet they were victorious; even without Tywin supporting either side the rebellion was out numbered and if they began losing even slightly then Tywin would have pledged to the King rather then sack the city. http://gameofthrones.wikia.com/wiki/Robert's_RebellionThe wiki says that the war was Baratheon, Stark, Tully and Arryn against Targaryen, Tyrell and Martell. Looking at the wiki it describes Dorne (kingdom of the Martells) as mostly arid, so I imagine they don't have too much power. The Targaryen had Dragonstone which as we know isn't the most powerful holding by a long shot only the Tyrells seem to have real powers. So I think the rebels could have been on equal grounds, maybe even have the advantage, against the loyalists.
The Targaryens also had Kings Landing to draw upon, and the surrounding Crownlands, while the Tyrell army is described in the History and Lore videos as being vast/extremely large (while they disparage the commander, Mace Tyrell, as on the show). The same videos also note that in the Battle of the Trident, the Royal Army under Rhaegar was larger than Robert's Army, while the Tyrell host was busy besieging Storms End (and held off by Stannis and a small garrison in starvation conditions for...a year was it?).
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from the wiki, about Mace Tyrell
+ Show Spoiler +but mace tyrell wasnt really in command in anything but name, his general was Randyl Tarly (Sam's father) who is one of the greatest generals still alive (hence also why its obv he wouldnt settle for Sam as his son). from the wiki, about Mace Tyrell He is not a noted strategist or general himself, but has shown good judgement in delegating such tasks to trusted, skilled subordinates, such as the famous general Randyll Tarly, who often commands Mace's forces in battle.
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United States44453 Posts
I think that might be book knowledge. In the show I think all we know is that Mace Tyrell sat outside Storm's End and missed the war.
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Why is everyone assuming the leech ceremony actually did anything? Frey's treachery was on the cards from the start, way before the ceremony. The LoL has shown he can do some magic, better than parlour tricks, but I have no reason to believe he can shape fate so much...yet.
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On June 06 2013 02:16 sc4k wrote:
Why is everyone assuming the leech ceremony actually did anything? Frey's treachery was on the cards from the start, way before the ceremony. The LoL has shown he can do some magic, better than parlour tricks, but I have no reason to believe he can shape fate so much...yet.
because in episode 8 she used a leech for rob stark, one for balon greyjoy, and one for joffrey baratheon. then, in the following episode, rob died. we'll have to watch for the other two
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On June 06 2013 02:16 sc4k wrote:
Why is everyone assuming the leech ceremony actually did anything? Frey's treachery was on the cards from the start, way before the ceremony. The LoL has shown he can do some magic, better than parlour tricks, but I have no reason to believe he can shape fate so much...yet.
I think its more that people are predicting what will happen in the show based on that. I would not believe that Melisandre and her god are literally to blame for this.
She might be lucky, or she might have seen it in her flames or it might be a "Red" herring. 
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On June 06 2013 02:20 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 02:16 sc4k wrote:
Why is everyone assuming the leech ceremony actually did anything? Frey's treachery was on the cards from the start, way before the ceremony. The LoL has shown he can do some magic, better than parlour tricks, but I have no reason to believe he can shape fate so much...yet. because in episode 8 she used a leech for rob stark, one for balon greyjoy, and one for tywin lannister. then, in the following episode, rob died. we'll have to watch for the other two
That's the same level of classic coincidence as when a voodoo priest in Africa has a 'witch' burned to death to make the rain come and the rain comes the next day. Until we get a second death, believing that the LoL had anything to do with the first death is, imo, silly. I still get the feeling that this LoL thing is actually fairly fraudulent.
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On June 05 2013 04:33 Redox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2013 03:46 dehdar wrote:
You know what bothers me the most.
Not that the unborn child was stabbed to death in his mother's stomach.
Not that Robb was killed infront of his mothers eyes.
Not that Robb's wife was killed infront of him.
But the rat bastard, low life piece of scum who just had to whisper "The Lannisters send their regards" before killing Robb... God that was low. What was really low was how he lead Catelyn with his eyes to take a look at his sleeves and then smirked after she saw the chain mail.
Found a perfect gif showing this. Haunting.
![[image loading]](http://www.picstation.net/pictures/c1aca71ebd5171f284c05ff844d207cb.gif)
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On June 05 2013 22:59 DertoQq wrote:
I would like to go back to something I asked earlier.
Being married to Sansa, can Tyrion has any claim to the North now that Robb is dead ? Or it doesn't work since he isn't directly related to the stark family ?
That's the whole point, as long as there is no other mail heir to Eddard Stark (As far as the Lannisters know, there isn't) he is the Lord of Winterfell and Guardion of the North if the King/Hand makes him that, wich they probably will if they get a chance.
Still, the Northmen probably will not accept him as their liege lord I suppose.
But if the mail line of the Guardian of a Realm is extinct it is up to the King to find replacement I believe. 95% certain on this one.
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On June 06 2013 02:22 sc4k wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 02:20 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:On June 06 2013 02:16 sc4k wrote:
Why is everyone assuming the leech ceremony actually did anything? Frey's treachery was on the cards from the start, way before the ceremony. The LoL has shown he can do some magic, better than parlour tricks, but I have no reason to believe he can shape fate so much...yet. because in episode 8 she used a leech for rob stark, one for balon greyjoy, and one for tywin lannister. then, in the following episode, rob died. we'll have to watch for the other two That's the same level of classic coincidence as when a voodoo priest in Africa has a 'witch' burned to death to make the rain come and the rain comes the next day. Until we get a second death, believing that the LoL had anything to do with the first death is, imo, silly. I still get the feeling that this LoL thing is actually fairly fraudulent.
did you miss the episode where the shadow demon crawled out of her vagina?
and thoros resurrecting beric?
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On June 06 2013 02:39 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 02:22 sc4k wrote:On June 06 2013 02:20 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:On June 06 2013 02:16 sc4k wrote:
Why is everyone assuming the leech ceremony actually did anything? Frey's treachery was on the cards from the start, way before the ceremony. The LoL has shown he can do some magic, better than parlour tricks, but I have no reason to believe he can shape fate so much...yet. because in episode 8 she used a leech for rob stark, one for balon greyjoy, and one for tywin lannister. then, in the following episode, rob died. we'll have to watch for the other two That's the same level of classic coincidence as when a voodoo priest in Africa has a 'witch' burned to death to make the rain come and the rain comes the next day. Until we get a second death, believing that the LoL had anything to do with the first death is, imo, silly. I still get the feeling that this LoL thing is actually fairly fraudulent. did you miss the episode where the shadow demon crawled out of her vagina?
That episode perfectly showed that she needs to do more than just toss a leech into a fire to kill someone. If she could have just done the leech thing why bother with all this birthing a son etc?
Not saying the red god has no power, but I dont think hes almighty in the sense of the Christian god.
Also, it can still be "just" magic and no god at all.
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On June 06 2013 02:39 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2013 02:22 sc4k wrote:On June 06 2013 02:20 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:On June 06 2013 02:16 sc4k wrote:
Why is everyone assuming the leech ceremony actually did anything? Frey's treachery was on the cards from the start, way before the ceremony. The LoL has shown he can do some magic, better than parlour tricks, but I have no reason to believe he can shape fate so much...yet. because in episode 8 she used a leech for rob stark, one for balon greyjoy, and one for tywin lannister. then, in the following episode, rob died. we'll have to watch for the other two That's the same level of classic coincidence as when a voodoo priest in Africa has a 'witch' burned to death to make the rain come and the rain comes the next day. Until we get a second death, believing that the LoL had anything to do with the first death is, imo, silly. I still get the feeling that this LoL thing is actually fairly fraudulent. did you miss the episode where the shadow demon crawled out of her vagina? and thoros resurrecting beric?
Being able to do one thing does not always mean you are able to do similar things as well.
Still, the Red Woman's powers are pretty strong.
To leave a lot open and suggest the viewer/reader to make his own thoughts about the progress beforehand is one of the best things in GoT to me, so feel free to believe what you will!
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cat - roose - chainmail, such an awesome scene. michelle will be missed.
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EPT
