On April 30 2013 11:32 kamicom wrote: Can someone explain to me the whole religious aspect of GoT? I know that the various characters are either religious or atheistic ambassadors for the audience, but from the story telling, it seemed like the "atheist" characters such as Jamie, the black pirate, and that dude that got killed by the redhead's baby assassin all understood things for what they were (they saw the whole spectrum of Westeros of how men fight for their different gods and how futile it was or something like that.)
But then, there's the Lord of the Light who impregnates that redhead bitch lady with the baby assassin and resurrects the thief 6 times. None of the other gods ever pulled shit like that. Is it supposed to be some monotheistic thing of "one true god" or is Westeros just some magical Grecian polytheistic land? Is it just black magic and none of the worshipped gods even exists?
There are, as you've noticed, a number of different religions in this world. I believe it's a part of George R. R. Martin's philosophy to just let magic be magic. He never explains how magic works or why it works (although there are hints that dragons being alive in the world has caused a magical revival of sorts) but when it comes down to it, nobody really knows why R'hllor (The Red God/The Lord of Light) has power, or even if the people claiming to use this power are just drawing from some ability they have either within themselves or are receiving from another source.
Likewise, the magic of the East (consider the Warlocks at The House of the Undying) or the threats in the North (wraiths [the white walkers] and wights [their zombies]) aren't ever explained.
Wait wait wait... the Red God is the Lord of Light? When did they say that? I missed anything about the Greyjoy uncle too.
That said, my field is the study of religions and sacred texts (both comparatively and in their integrity), and I think the whole religious aspect is very interesting:
The Seven represent ethical not-quite monotheism like the Hinduism of Ghandi, or a super trinitarian (septiarian?) version of Christianity. Seems the most "religious" as opposed to magical, appears concerned with healing, education, and ethics, as is expected of "religions" as we recognize them. No particular indication that they do charitable work, but this would be in character. The Maesters we encounter (who are clerics? or monastics of some kind?) run the gammut from kindly (Winterfell) to wise (Castle Black) to scheming (King's Landing).
The Old Gods seem pretty animistic/almost-pagan with no given names for deities, nor much of a sense of a divinity with a purpose (though the Seven doesn't have as much of that as we might expect). There is a dearth of information concerning them, perhaps because of a lack of an organized theology or clergy. Seem largely to used in the show not as a real religion, but as a nationalistic symbol (something that frequently happens to religions in situations of national oppression. most religious wars have not a whit to do with arguments over tennets of religion, but are rather nationalistic or imperialistic enterprises cloaked in religious garb).
The Drowned God is even more mysterious. Seems to have rites, priesthood. Some similarities to Christianity, but a Christianity in favor of paying for things with the "iron price" would be a very alien kind of Christianity indeed. Again, perhaps very basically nationalistic.
The Lord of Light is the deity about whom the most is known, but it forms a puzzle. At first, I assumed the Lord of Light to be some kind of demon; the religion has many suggestions of dark magic about it. And the whole "the night is dark and full of terrors" thing is... unsettling. However, now we have to contend with the nice Lord of Light worshippers, who really do seem to be the closest thing we've met to a real good guy faction since the show started. They also use "magic," but it looks a lot more like prayer compared to the dark rites of the Red Lady, and her magic is used to destroy, theirs to save. But we haven't actually seen much to suggest the reality of the Lord of Light, and it is possible that the Lord of Light's whole worship is basically a set of magical practices.
Also, if the Seven are the gods of the South and the Old Gods the gods of the North, and the Lord of Light is from the East, what are the Gods of Old Valyria? And if the Red God is the Lord of Light, do the free cities worship him too?
On April 30 2013 11:32 kamicom wrote: Can someone explain to me the whole religious aspect of GoT? I know that the various characters are either religious or atheistic ambassadors for the audience, but from the story telling, it seemed like the "atheist" characters such as Jamie, the black pirate, and that dude that got killed by the redhead's baby assassin all understood things for what they were (they saw the whole spectrum of Westeros of how men fight for their different gods and how futile it was or something like that.)
But then, there's the Lord of the Light who impregnates that redhead bitch lady with the baby assassin and resurrects the thief 6 times. None of the other gods ever pulled shit like that. Is it supposed to be some monotheistic thing of "one true god" or is Westeros just some magical Grecian polytheistic land? Is it just black magic and none of the worshipped gods even exists?
There are, as you've noticed, a number of different religions in this world. I believe it's a part of George R. R. Martin's philosophy to just let magic be magic. He never explains how magic works or why it works (although there are hints that dragons being alive in the world has caused a magical revival of sorts) but when it comes down to it, nobody really knows why R'hllor (The Red God/The Lord of Light) has power, or even if the people claiming to use this power are just drawing from some ability they have either within themselves or are receiving from another source.
Likewise, the magic of the East (consider the Warlocks at The House of the Undying) or the threats in the North (wraiths [the white walkers] and wights [their zombies]) aren't ever explained.
Wait wait wait... the Red God is the Lord of Light? When did they say that? I missed anything about the Greyjoy uncle too.
That said, my field is the study of religions and sacred texts (both comparatively and in their integrity), and I think the whole religious aspect is very interesting:
The Seven represent ethical not-quite monotheism like the Hinduism of Ghandi, or a super trinitarian (septiarian?) version of Christianity. Seems the most "religious" as opposed to magical, appears concerned with healing, education, and ethics, as is expected of "religions" as we recognize them. No particular indication that they do charitable work, but this would be in character. The Maesters we encounter (who are clerics? or monastics of some kind?) run the gammut from kindly (Winterfell) to wise (Castle Black) to scheming (King's Landing).
The Old Gods seem pretty animistic/almost-pagan with no given names for deities, nor much of a sense of a divinity with a purpose (though the Seven doesn't have as much of that as we might expect). There is a dearth of information concerning them, perhaps because of a lack of an organized theology or clergy. Seem largely to used in the show not as a real religion, but as a nationalistic symbol (something that frequently happens to religions in situations of national oppression. most religious wars have not a whit to do with arguments over tennets of religion, but are rather nationalistic or imperialistic enterprises cloaked in religious garb).
The Drowned God is even more mysterious. Seems to have rites, priesthood. Some similarities to Christianity, but a Christianity in favor of paying for things with the "iron price" would be a very alien kind of Christianity indeed. Again, perhaps very basically nationalistic.
The Lord of Light is the deity about whom the most is known, but it forms a puzzle. At first, I assumed the Lord of Light to be some kind of demon; the religion has many suggestions of dark magic about it. And the whole "the night is dark and full of terrors" thing is... unsettling. However, now we have to contend with the nice Lord of Light worshippers, who really do seem to be the closest thing we've met to a real good guy faction since the show started. They also use "magic," but it looks a lot more like prayer compared to the dark rites of the Red Lady, and her magic is used to destroy, theirs to save. But we haven't actually seen much to suggest the reality of the Lord of Light, and it is possible that the Lord of Light's whole worship is basically a set of magical practices.
Also, if the Seven are the gods of the South and the Old Gods the gods of the North, and the Lord of Light is from the East, what are the Gods of Old Valyria? And if the Red God is the Lord of Light, do the free cities worship him too?
and don't forget that there are dragons... DRAGONS!
We learned in S1 that Baratheon kids are always "black of hair". This was pretty important in Ned's finding out the truth. So why is Stannis' daughter blond-ish?
On April 30 2013 13:43 Aegon I wrote: We learned in S1 that Baratheon kids are always "black of hair". This was pretty important in Ned's finding out the truth. So why is Stannis' daughter blond-ish?
Still bothers me how no one questioned Joffrey's real father. I mean, seriously, did you need to read a book to remind yourself that the line of Baratheon sons were black of hair.
On April 30 2013 12:51 CatfooD wrote: Can someone briefly explain what happened between Catelyn and Robb a few episodes ago and up until now? What did she do with Jaime; how; why? How did Robb react and what is happening now between them because of that interaction? I missed all of that when I had the chance to watch it earlier and don't have the opportunity to re-watch right now. Thanks.
Catelyn smuggled Jaime out with Brienne of Tarth to exchange him for the two Stark girls supposedly held in Kings Landing (Arya/Sansa). Jaime was worth farrrrr more as a prisoner than the two girls and now Robb has to treat his mother like a traitor. He can't set her free because he'd lose vassal support and he won't execute her because he loves her. He doesn't trust her anymore as a result.
Thank you for the explanation. I think I need another refresher though. By the end of season 3, Jaime was captured and in Robb's custody, right? And by episode 1 of season 3, I got confused with that scene when Robb and his men found the city of hundreds of dead. Since then Catelyn had freed Jaime Lannister and send Brienne with him to... where? What did Catelyn and freeing Jaime have to do with those dead they found? Who were they? Thanks again...
On April 30 2013 12:51 CatfooD wrote: Can someone briefly explain what happened between Catelyn and Robb a few episodes ago and up until now? What did she do with Jaime; how; why? How did Robb react and what is happening now between them because of that interaction? I missed all of that when I had the chance to watch it earlier and don't have the opportunity to re-watch right now. Thanks.
Catelyn smuggled Jaime out with Brienne of Tarth to exchange him for the two Stark girls supposedly held in Kings Landing (Arya/Sansa). Jaime was worth farrrrr more as a prisoner than the two girls and now Robb has to treat his mother like a traitor. He can't set her free because he'd lose vassal support and he won't execute her because he loves her. He doesn't trust her anymore as a result.
Thank you for the explanation. I think I need another refresher though. By the end of season 3, Jaime was captured and in Robb's custody, right? And by episode 1 of season 3, I got confused with that scene when Robb and his men found the city of hundreds of dead. Since then Catelyn had freed Jaime Lannister and send Brienne with him to... where? What did Catelyn and freeing Jaime have to do with those dead they found? Who were they? Thanks again...
Catelyn freed Jaime near the end of Season 2 (I forget the specific episode), to go to King's Landing and make a trade for the Stark girls.
The dead they found were prisoners of the Lannisters that were executed before Harrenhal was evacuated.
On April 30 2013 11:32 kamicom wrote: Can someone explain to me the whole religious aspect of GoT? I know that the various characters are either religious or atheistic ambassadors for the audience, but from the story telling, it seemed like the "atheist" characters such as Jamie, the black pirate, and that dude that got killed by the redhead's baby assassin all understood things for what they were (they saw the whole spectrum of Westeros of how men fight for their different gods and how futile it was or something like that.)
But then, there's the Lord of the Light who impregnates that redhead bitch lady with the baby assassin and resurrects the thief 6 times. None of the other gods ever pulled shit like that. Is it supposed to be some monotheistic thing of "one true god" or is Westeros just some magical Grecian polytheistic land? Is it just black magic and none of the worshipped gods even exists?
There are, as you've noticed, a number of different religions in this world. I believe it's a part of George R. R. Martin's philosophy to just let magic be magic. He never explains how magic works or why it works (although there are hints that dragons being alive in the world has caused a magical revival of sorts) but when it comes down to it, nobody really knows why R'hllor (The Red God/The Lord of Light) has power, or even if the people claiming to use this power are just drawing from some ability they have either within themselves or are receiving from another source.
As far as the other gods go, their work is a lot less obvious. The bond the Stark children have with their wolves (and Bran's dreams) might possibly be a gift from the Old Gods, or they might have another explanation. Aeron Damphair (Theon Greyjoy's uncle) has the ability to resuscitate recently drowned men with the kiss of life, but it's never clear if this is the power of The Drowned God or if it's a primitive CPR technique that he just happens to be really good at.
Likewise, the magic of the East (consider the Warlocks at The House of the Undying) or the threats in the North (wraiths [the white walkers] and wights [their zombies]) aren't ever explained.
Wait wait wait... the Red God is the Lord of Light? When did they say that? I missed anything about the Greyjoy uncle too.
That said, my field is the study of religions and sacred texts (both comparatively and in their integrity), and I think the whole religious aspect is very interesting:
The Seven represent ethical not-quite monotheism like the Hinduism of Ghandi, or a super trinitarian (septiarian?) version of Christianity. Seems the most "religious" as opposed to magical, appears concerned with healing, education, and ethics, as is expected of "religions" as we recognize them. No particular indication that they do charitable work, but this would be in character. The Maesters we encounter (who are clerics? or monastics of some kind?) run the gammut from kindly (Winterfell) to wise (Castle Black) to scheming (King's Landing).
The Old Gods seem pretty animistic/almost-pagan with no given names for deities, nor much of a sense of a divinity with a purpose (though the Seven doesn't have as much of that as we might expect). There is a dearth of information concerning them, perhaps because of a lack of an organized theology or clergy. Seem largely to used in the show not as a real religion, but as a nationalistic symbol (something that frequently happens to religions in situations of national oppression. most religious wars have not a whit to do with arguments over tennets of religion, but are rather nationalistic or imperialistic enterprises cloaked in religious garb).
The Drowned God is even more mysterious. Seems to have rites, priesthood. Some similarities to Christianity, but a Christianity in favor of paying for things with the "iron price" would be a very alien kind of Christianity indeed. Again, perhaps very basically nationalistic.
The Lord of Light is the deity about whom the most is known, but it forms a puzzle. At first, I assumed the Lord of Light to be some kind of demon; the religion has many suggestions of dark magic about it. And the whole "the night is dark and full of terrors" thing is... unsettling. However, now we have to contend with the nice Lord of Light worshippers, who really do seem to be the closest thing we've met to a real good guy faction since the show started. They also use "magic," but it looks a lot more like prayer compared to the dark rites of the Red Lady, and her magic is used to destroy, theirs to save. But we haven't actually seen much to suggest the reality of the Lord of Light, and it is possible that the Lord of Light's whole worship is basically a set of magical practices.
Also, if the Seven are the gods of the South and the Old Gods the gods of the North, and the Lord of Light is from the East, what are the Gods of Old Valyria? And if the Red God is the Lord of Light, do the free cities worship him too?
Worship of the Seven is the predominant religion in Westeros. The groups associated with them are the priests and the silent sisters, who tend to the wounded and dead. The fat priest dude in charge at King's Landing was killed and presumably eaten when Joffrey's group was mobbed. The number seven is very important/symbolic in Westeros as well. The Maesters are not associated with the Seven in particular at all. It's more of a group of nerds who learn a bunch of shit and advise Lords.
The Old Gods are basically the Gods of the Northmen, and it's pretty much the worship of the Gods inhabiting the Weirwoods (the pale trees with faces). It's interesting to note that Sansa was praying at a Weirwood stump in episode 4 when Margaery found her, as she is the least north-y Stark child and seemed to have adopted her mother's Seven instead.
The Drowned God is strange. Can't say much about him without very minor spoilers since not much has been revealed about him and his followers as far as I can remember.
The Lord of Light/Red God is the one who seems to be most powerful in the show. Helped give birth to a fucking demon shadow baby and has brought back Dondarrion six times. Creepiest God ever. Jaqen H'ghar (face changing assassin dude) suggests that he works in the name of the Red God as well (along with the Faceless Men who he works for).
Another set of Gods are those of the Horselords, but they seem unimportant anyways.
The Old Gods of the north are pagan / druidic. Like the celts of Britain worshiped pre-Rome.
The Seven are Jewish and/or Christian. When the Andals arrived from the east they brought this religion with them, like the Romans invading Britain.
The Lord of Light is Muslim. It's worshipers believe that it is the same god as the Seven, but that the worshipers of the Seven are misguided.
Anything I could say about the Drowned God and other beliefs would be from book knowledge as I do not think there is enough information given in the show.
On April 30 2013 13:43 Aegon I wrote: We learned in S1 that Baratheon kids are always "black of hair". This was pretty important in Ned's finding out the truth. So why is Stannis' daughter blond-ish?
it might've just been Baratheon boys
I think it was specifically Baratheon Lannister children. I guess it doesn't apply to children of other families.
On April 30 2013 13:43 Aegon I wrote: We learned in S1 that Baratheon kids are always "black of hair". This was pretty important in Ned's finding out the truth. So why is Stannis' daughter blond-ish?
it might've just been Baratheon boys
I think it was specifically Baratheon Lannister children. I guess it doesn't apply to children of other families.
Robert Baratheon offspring are of dark hair, no matter the woman.
On April 30 2013 06:34 Poetry wrote: I'm fairly certain they mention that Lancel was basically going "CHUG CHUG CHUG" with the wine skin
I remember it as they showed Robert in the woods and Renly pissed him off by calling him out on always talking about the glory of war. Then he got pissed and chugged the wine in anger.
On April 30 2013 13:43 Aegon I wrote: We learned in S1 that Baratheon kids are always "black of hair". This was pretty important in Ned's finding out the truth. So why is Stannis' daughter blond-ish?
it might've just been Baratheon boys
I think it was specifically Baratheon Lannister children. I guess it doesn't apply to children of other families.
Robert Baratheon offspring are of dark hair, no matter the woman.
This has no reason to apply to Stannis.
When Ned's reading the big book all of the male Baratheons have black hair as well.
fuck you guys, really ... just DO NOT talk about the books at all. You spoiler shit even if you don't realize that you spoiler. Better stay out of this thread
On April 30 2013 16:00 Don_Julio wrote: fuck you guys, really ... just DO NOT talk about the books at all. You spoiler shit even if you don't realize that you spoiler. Better stay out of this thread
This. Please, guys. I know that most of you are just trying to be helpful, but any explanation starting with "in the books" should be avoided, no matter how trivial or non-spoilery it looks like to you. There's always something that can be gleamed or extrapolated from those explanation, and sometimes that's enough to figure out some pretty major stuff that will or will not happen. And that's bad.
If you want to explain the back-story to people, don't throw all the information you have at them. Think of what people watching the show can and cannot know, and don't even go anywhere near the stuff the show watchers can not know, even if it was common knowledge for the book readers at that point in the books. Don't explain plot points with absolute certainty when they are only hinted at in the show.
Or, even better, only use the History of Westeros videos to explain the back-story. They're guaranteed spoiler free, and they explain pretty much all the back-story a show viewer needs to know (There's some on the various religions, for instance, or the account of the Kingslaying from the POV of Robert). Obligatory warning: They're on Youtube. Youtube comments are full of spoilers, obviously, so don't ever scroll down when watching these videos.
TL;DR: There is a reason why there is a very strict "no books" rule in this thread. You are most likely spoiling things even when you are trying not to.
Yes, there been too much spoilers in this thread lately. Mods go to sleep and people start spoiling like crazy. Even the above talks about Gods have too much book stuff in them, talking about stuff never shown in the show.
I admit I read the books but I am extremely careful to not talk about book events. When talking about the show, it is much more fun to talk to and read opinions from people that didn't read the books. If you people scare them all away, all the fun will be lost. So please stop talking about books. If someone asks something that can only be answered by book readers and you cannot help yourself not to answer please use PM, not this topic.
EPT
