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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. | ||
zatic
Zurich15365 Posts
 But please guys, use the report function, PM a mod. Or just PM the people posting about the book and ask them to edit out the non-show content. But please, do NOT quote book spoilers over and over again. Drives a mod insane to have to edit out things through multiple quoted spoilers over several pages. | ||
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0x64
Finland4615 Posts
Even if it is second hand information. If you were spoiled, no reason to spoil others. Even when explaining the meaningless lore... Telling that something is meaningless is as big of a spoiler than telling something will become important. Or even smaller things like pointing out the sigil of someone whose sigil hasn't been shown. It's very clear that huge amount of the posts are made by book reader, because the amount of discussion about the episodes and the answers coming from the information is noooot coming from the show. Pointing out that there was this 2 seconds possible hint to your "guess" or explanation is also a spoiler. The mechanics are simple: You read the book -> You don't explain anything that happened in the show. To admins: If someone posts "too accurate" predictions many times, you can just ban and remove the comments, noone remembers what someone said specifically! | ||
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kleetzor
Germany360 Posts
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Too_MuchZerg
Finland2818 Posts
So just closing would IMO best option, saves admin time and less moderating for other thread. This would help viewers (like me) who hasn't read books to less possibilities to get spoilered. | ||
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Emix_Squall
France705 Posts
Or maybe I'm superhuman and my brain scans for spoils and automatically ignores them ... On April 30 2013 18:22 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Actually admins should just close this thread and leave spoiler thread open. I love discussing here but I feel that I get spoilered here so much (then again I dont always know when but when admin bans then I remember text what was written there) So just closing would IMO best option, saves admin time and less moderating for other thread. This would help viewers (like me) who hasn't read books to less possibilities to get spoilered.Hmm ... WTF? Noone is forcing you to read. Don't come on that thread anymore but don't ask for it to be closed for your own little convenience ... god people are selfish. | ||
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Zandar
Netherlands1541 Posts
On April 30 2013 18:22 Too_MuchZerg wrote: Actually admins should just close this thread and leave spoiler thread open. I love discussing here but I feel that I get spoilered here so much (then again I dont always know when but when admin bans then I remember text what was written there) So just closing would IMO best option, saves admin time and less moderating for other thread. This would help viewers (like me) who hasn't read books to less possibilities to get spoilered.But people who watch only the show like to have a place where they can discuss it too. One of the great parts of a new episode is coming here afterwards and read about stuff that others saw that you didn't and rewatch it. For example I would never have known we saw Beric Dondarrion before or could at least make a little sense of the whole Theon situation without this thread. Also, reading here makes you feel like you are not watching the show alone. And it gives a lot of extra background and thoughts. According to Bronn, it enhances it really | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On April 30 2013 18:35 Emix_Squall wrote: I come to this thread every week on Mondays an Tuesdays, just to see what people reactions to the last episode are (and maybe to troll a little) and I've almost never been spoiled to be honest. It's just a matter of not reading stuff when you feel like a post is getting spoilery ... Or maybe I'm superhuman and my brain scans for spoils and automatically ignores them ... Hmm ... WTF? Noone is forcing you to read. Don't come on that thread anymore but don't ask for it to be closed for your own little convenience ... god people are selfish. I wholly agree. This thread should stay open because I love seeing what other people's thoughts are, and maybe ask some questions about what I didn't understand and leave some predictions to find later on. I haven't gotten spoilered at all yet. I don't know why so many people are complaining. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15365 Posts
On April 24 2013 00:25 zatic wrote: There are hardly any reliable troop numbers to go by. My estimate : North: 18k - 2k (ruse) + Freys - losses + Riverrun We don't know how many troops Riverrun contributed We don't know what happened to the Frey troops after Robb crossed Walder Frey over the wedding We don't know anything about their losses after the initial 2k sacrifice other than that the Lannisters take more Easiest would be to say Riverrun contributed enough to compensate for the losses, so still around 18k left Lannisters - significantly more, but never really specified, and confusing troop mentions Initially, they have 60k troops, of which Tywin and Jamie command 30k each. Tywins host never does any considerable battling until the blackwater other than massacring the 2k Robb sends to their death. Jamies host lays siege to Riverrun and is then taken by surprise by Robb. We only hear that this was a spectacular success for Robb, so we can assume huge losses to he Lannisters (+Jamie gets captured). Also those 30k are never mentioned again, so they are dead / prisoners / scattered. They have reinforcements in the West that Tywin assumes can not hold against Robb, so probably significantly less than 20k They are constantly mentioned to take way more losses than the Starks, and Robb wins every battle against them ("5 dead for every 1 of ours") Also being harassed by the brotherhood, although that probably doesn't impact the numbers much I would give them an initial 60k total (-20k dead / scattered at Riverrun) - unsure number of losses = between 30k - 40k left Iron Islands - about 6k Said to have 300 ships. Going by Theons ship 20 men per ship = 6k men. We can assume that all their sailors are fighters too. Tyrell - virtually no numbers, or confusing ones Littlefinger mentions them having "the largest army after Lannister and Stark". This makes little sense since Renly's initial host is supposed to be 100k, which is Tyrells and Stormlands combined (- Stannis). Stannis - initially has the bigger part of the Royal fleet, which is supposed to be smaller than the Iron fleet (and not all fighters) + the hired pirates. He probably has some Stormland troops loyal to him over his brother as well Let's say he has about 8k initially. He takes over Renlys troops after Renlys death. The real question is how the 100k in Renlys army are divided into Stormland and Tyrell loyalists. We can only say that Tyrell has at least half or more, since the Tyrell part + the Lannisters beat the Renly part + Stannis at the blackwater. If we say they split 50/50 and then meet again at the blackwater: We know "thousands" would die on the assault on the city alone. We have little information on the losses after the Tyrell + Lannister army arrives. We can assume from Stannis fanatacism that he wouldn't retreat before another couple of thousands fall. Let's give Stannis 15k losses and the Tyrell army 10k. Stannis can also only retreat with the ships he has left. We don't know what happens to his men who surrendered, let's just assume they are sent home (may be drafted into Tyrell / Lannister, but that would have been mentioned). If we say he loses half his fleet he can take 4k back to Dragonstone. Totaled that would leave: Lannister: 35k North: 18k Tyrell: 40k Stannis: 4k Greyjoys: 6k Dany - we have numbers! 8000 Unsullied Unspecified number of untrained Unsullied, let's say 1000 About 40 Dothraki, mostly useless 1 hot interpreter 1 badass Joah Mormont 1 certified super badass Barristan Selmy 3 child dragons However, of course Danys army is HUGELY better than the thousands of drafted peasants the rest has, even without considering the dragons. The unsullied would most likely cut through Westeros armies twice their numbers. Also: Barristan Selmy. Also worth considering: Wildlings: "hundreds and thousands" There is little we know about them other than they count about 100k or more. It is unclear if that includes women, children, elderly. We know the women fight too though. The Watch: About 700 left Maester Aemon says there is "less than a thousand of us now". Mormont takes 300 beyond the wall, most of which get killed. The ones killed are also mostly rangers, so the most able fighters of the Watch are gone. Updated troop numbers from S03E05: North: 18k - 2k (ruse) + Freys - losses - Freys + Riverrun - Karstarks We don't know how many troops Riverrun contributed We can assume the initial Frey troops went home after the Robb wed Talisa We don't know anything about their losses after the initial 2k sacrifice other than that the Lannisters take more Easiest would be to say Riverrun contributed enough to compensate for the losses, so still around 18k left Karstarks march home with "half their forces". This is really confusing as it doesn't make sense that one lesser lord controls half their troops. Maybe he meant half their forces currently at Riverrun, so he would still have the Bolton garrison at Harrenhall. If we say he split up, half his forces at Harrenhall and other places, half at Riverrun, and of those Riverrun troops half march home with Karstark: He took a significant hit, about 5k gone. Lannisters - significantly more, but never really specified, and confusing troop mentions Initially, they have 60k troops, of which Tywin and Jamie command 30k each. Tywins host never does any considerable battling until the blackwater other than massacring the 2k Robb sends to their death. Jamies host lays siege to Riverrun and is then taken by surprise by Robb. We only hear that this was a spectacular success for Robb, so we can assume huge losses to he Lannisters (+Jamie gets captured). Also those 30k are never mentioned again, so they are dead / prisoners / scattered. They have reinforcements in the West that Tywin assumes can not hold against Robb, so probably significantly less than 20k They are constantly mentioned to take way more losses than the Starks, and Robb wins every battle against them ("5 dead for every 1 of ours") Also being harassed by the brotherhood, although that probably doesn't impact the numbers much I would give them an initial 60k total (-20k dead / scattered at Riverrun) - unsure number of losses = between 30k - 40k left Iron Islands- about 6k Said to have 300 ships. Going by Theons ship 20 men per ship = 6k men. We can assume that all their sailors are fighters too. It is possible that Theon was given one of the smaller ships so maybe they have more, but very unlikely more than 8-9k. Tyrell - new numbers, but confusing ones! Littlefinger mentions them having "the largest army after Lannister and Stark". This makes little sense since Renly's initial host is supposed to be 100k, which is Tyrells and Stormlands combined (- Stannis). Lady Olenna: "12k infantry + 1800 cavalry + 2000 support". This seems really, really low. Maybe she was just talking about the troops currently guarding the capital? Some 16k total would be ridiculously low considering what we know about the Renly / Lannister troops. Exact Tyrell numbers remain a mystery and we can only assume the number given in the show are incomplete. Stannis - initially has the bigger part of the Royal fleet, which is supposed to be smaller than the Iron fleet (and not all fighters) + the hired pirates. He probably has some Stormland troops loyal to him over his brother as well Let's say he has about 8k initially. He takes over Renlys troops after Renlys death. The real question is how the 100k in Renlys army are divided into Stormland and Tyrell loyalists. We can only say that Tyrell has at least half or more, since the Tyrell part + the Lannisters beat the Renly part + Stannis at the blackwater. If we say they split 50/50 and then meet again at the blackwater: We know "thousands" would die on the assault on the city alone. We have little information on the losses after the Tyrell + Lannister army arrives. We can assume from Stannis fanatacism that he wouldn't retreat before another couple of thousands fall. Let's give Stannis 15k losses and the Tyrell army 10k. Stannis can also only retreat with the ships he has left. We don't know what happens to his men who surrendered, let's just assume they are sent home (may be drafted into Tyrell / Lannister, but that would have been mentioned). If we say he loses half his fleet he can take 4k back to Dragonstone. Totaled that would leave: Lannister: 35k North: 13k Tyrell: 40k Stannis: 4k Greyjoys: 6k Dany - we have numbers! 8000 Unsullied Unspecified number of untrained Unsullied, let's say 1000 About 40 Dothraki, mostly useless 1 hot interpreter 1 badass Joah Mormont 1 certified super badass Barristan Selmy 3 child dragons However, of course Danys army is HUGELY better than the thousands of drafted peasants the rest has, even without considering the dragons. The unsullied would most likely cut through Westeros armies twice their numbers. Also: Barristan Selmy. Wildlings - "hundreds and thousands" There is little we know about them other than they count about 100k or more. It is unclear if that includes women, children, elderly. We know the women fight too though. The Watch - about 700 left Maester Aemon says in S1 there is "less than a thousand of us now". Mormont takes 300 beyond the wall, most of which get killed. The ones killed are also mostly rangers, so the most able fighters of the Watch are gone. Jon claims there are 1000 guarding Castle Black alone. Given the troops numbers we learned about before we can only assume he is lying at this point. The show continues to give us nonsensical, confusing, and contradictory troops numbers. This is a best effort to give a total of all parties. | ||
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
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Emix_Squall
France705 Posts
On April 30 2013 19:06 Shock710 wrote: When u say the watch as 700 left, is that 700 rangers/crows or including the cooks and other scullery people who cant fight (like the old blind guy from season 1 who talks with Jon snow) THAT OLD BLIND GUY IS MOTHERFUCKING AEMON TARGARYEN BITCH!!!!! edit: which kinds of put the whole concept of Daeny being the last Targaryen to the trash. | ||
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Resent
Australia938 Posts
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zatic
Zurich15365 Posts
On April 30 2013 19:06 Shock710 wrote: When u say the watch as 700 left, is that 700 rangers/crows or including the cooks and other scullery people who cant fight (like the old blind guy from season 1 who talks with Jon snow) We don't really know, but Aemon (the old guy) speaks as if he means the entire Night's Watch, so stuarts, rangers, etc all included are just 1k in season 1. In any case, give or take a few hundred, there is not many left. | ||
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Conti
Germany2516 Posts
On April 30 2013 19:19 Resent wrote: Out of interest in the show and not knowing much of anything about Aerys, Rhaegar, Neds sister etc i had read a wiki page about the characters and what happened to them, figuring it was just some back story/common knowledge(to the peoples of Westeros) that was left out of the show as it wasn't really needed, now i see it was actually meant to be a big reveal from Jaime. Not really, actually. The History of Westeros videos talk about this. Not quite in such detail, but enough to explain everything. Of course, having Jaime himself talk about it is a million times more awesome. | ||
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Emix_Squall
France705 Posts
On April 30 2013 19:30 Conti wrote: Not really, actually. The History of Westeros videos talk about this. Not quite in such detail, but enough to explain everything. Of course, having Jaime himself talk about it is a million times more awesome. I think this part of the story is not meant to be "hidden" from the viewer for so long, it's just meant to be said in the most impactful way in this precise scene and it sure was a tensed moment. Nikolaj Coster-Waldau (the actor playing Jaime) actually did an awesome job here  | ||
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Broetchenholer
Germany1961 Posts
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Hier
2391 Posts
On April 30 2013 18:40 zatic wrote: [...] The Watch - about 700 left [...] Given the troops numbers we learned about before we can only assume he is lying at this point. Everything Jon said was the truth; he rounded to about 1000. We don't actually have the solid numbers, missing a few here and there is not "lying". The reason the wildlings thought he was lying is because 1000 seems like a laughably low number, compared to their own. | ||
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Klive5ive
United Kingdom6056 Posts
It's a lot of fun reading this thread for TV reaction - even if I couldn't post I'd still read it. | ||
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zatic
Zurich15365 Posts
On April 30 2013 19:54 Hier wrote: Everything Jon said was the truth; he rounded to about 1000. We don't actually have the solid numbers, missing a few here and there is not "lying". The reason the wildlings thought he was lying is because 1000 seems like a laughably low number, compared to their own. Well given the information we have from Aemon and the losses at the Fist it's about 700. And that is the Watch total, so all 3 manned castles, not just Castle Black. So he is significantly exaggerating. The other explanation would be that Aemon is wrong or was lying in season 1. At this point this seems less likely than Jon telling the Wildlings the wrong numbers. | ||
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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Hier
2391 Posts
On April 30 2013 20:08 zatic wrote: Well given the information we have from Aemon and the losses at the Fist it's about 700. And that is the Watch total, so all 3 manned castles, not just Castle Black. So he is significantly exaggerating. The other explanation would be that Aemon is wrong or was lying in season 1. At this point this seems less likely than Jon telling the Wildlings the wrong numbers. What is the difference between telling the wildlings there are 700 vs 1000 crows at the wall, compared to the horde of wildlings? Virtually none. Do you really think Jon, while being interrogated, did some quick mental math, considered the recent casualties, and added a negligible amount of crows (relative to the wildling numbers) to his resultant number after telling the complete truth right before that? For what? Jon told the truth, according to Jon. It's hardly an argument. | ||
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