On May 30 2012 09:08 [Aot]_Aether wrote: What is the vendetta against the books? They might clarify some points without giving away spoilers!
There's nothing wrong with having read the books, I love them. Yet in a show-specific thread like this, the book readers should be very sensitive to the non-book readers. While that is technically true, it's not helpful to the non-book readers who are coming to understand this magnificant, but difficult, story as a show. I think the book-readers, having a bit more understanding of the charactors and more knowlege of the exposition, can assist the non-book readers in understanding bits that they might have missed, or have forgotten because they're being told the story one hour at a time over the course of weeks and weeks. They can offer a bit more perspective to the non-book readers. But nitpicking over the differences between the books and the show or saying that something is out-of-character for a character because he doesn't do it in the books is wrong.
I never read the books but for me, as long as it doesn't spoil future storylines and it actually contributes relevant information instead of just being a bitchfest about how the book is different, it's alright.
On May 30 2012 09:08 [Aot]_Aether wrote: What is the vendetta against the books? They might clarify some points without giving away spoilers!
There's nothing wrong with having read the books, I love them. Yet in a show-specific thread like this, the book readers should be very sensitive to the non-book readers. A couple of post above someone said that Jaime Lannister killing his cousin was out of character for him because he didn't do it in the books. While that is technically true, it's not helpful to the non-book readers who are coming to understand this magnificant, but difficult, story as a show. I think the book-readers, having a bit more understanding of the charactors and more knowlege of the exposition, can assist the non-book readers in understanding bits that they might have missed, or have forgotten because they're being told the story one hour at a time over the course of weeks and weeks. They can offer a bit more perspective to the non-book readers. But nitpicking over the differences between the books and the show or saying that something is out-of-character for a character because he doesn't do it in the books is wrong.
I never read the books but for me, as long as it doesn't spoil future storylines and it actually contributes relevant information instead of just being a bitchfest about how the book is different, it's alright.
Its not really important what is alright for you though, as you are not a mod. Just read the top of this page.
On May 30 2012 09:33 haitike wrote: But Jaime really cares about his family. A bad scene for cut money in actors, is a bad scene.
I'm gonna try to answer this without spoilers. I don't necessarily think that is was a bad scene, it was a different scene. It was a scene that shows the same things about Jaime that the book does in a different way. Jaime does care about family. He cares about the family he knows and loves (some a little too much). He had to be reminded that he had even ever met this 2nd or 3rd cousin before. Also, I think it does serve a purpose and I'm really trying to choose my words carefully here to not ruin anything for the non-book readers. Jaime is far too likeable at this point in the story as far as the show goes, compared to the books. Sure, people call him king-slayer, and he pushed Bran out of a window, but even still. He's just too sympathetic. At this point in the story, book-readers mostly despise Jaime Lannister. He's done bad things, but worse, he's just way too arrogant and cocky and full of himself. The show tries to get that across, but Jaime frankly comes across as more charasmatic than cocky. Some of that is the natural charisma of the actor, but a lot of it is because of the too little screentime afforded to each particular narrative. He needed to do something to make him seem more dispicable right now so that his future story arc will be more in-line with the book Jaime's story arc.
On May 30 2012 09:08 [Aot]_Aether wrote: What is the vendetta against the books? They might clarify some points without giving away spoilers!
There's nothing wrong with having read the books, I love them. Yet in a show-specific thread like this, the book readers should be very sensitive to the non-book readers. A couple of post above someone said that Jaime Lannister killing his cousin was out of character for him because he didn't do it in the books. While that is technically true, it's not helpful to the non-book readers who are coming to understand this magnificant, but difficult, story as a show. I think the book-readers, having a bit more understanding of the charactors and more knowlege of the exposition, can assist the non-book readers in understanding bits that they might have missed, or have forgotten because they're being told the story one hour at a time over the course of weeks and weeks. They can offer a bit more perspective to the non-book readers. But nitpicking over the differences between the books and the show or saying that something is out-of-character for a character because he doesn't do it in the books is wrong.
I never read the books but for me, as long as it doesn't spoil future storylines and it actually contributes relevant information instead of just being a bitchfest about how the book is different, it's alright.
Its not really important what is alright for you though, as you are not a mod. Just read the top of this page.
It's not about me, nor is it really about the mods. It's about all the non-book readers, and whether or not they'll be bothered by important book-facts that isn't going to spoil future TV-storylines. I leave it to you to explain how his statement is worthy of a warning.
On May 30 2012 09:33 haitike wrote: But Jaime really cares about his family. A bad scene for cut money in actors, is a bad scene.
I'm gonna try to answer this without spoilers. I don't necessarily think that is was a bad scene, it was a different scene. It was a scene that shows the same things about Jaime that the book does in a different way. Jaime does care about family. He cares about the family he knows and loves (some a little too much). He had to be reminded that he had even ever met this 2nd or 3rd cousin before. Also, I think it does serve a purpose and I'm really trying to choose my words carefully here to not ruin anything for the non-book readers. Jaime is far too likeable at this point in the story as far as the show goes, compared to the books. Sure, people call him king-slayer, and he pushed Bran out of a window, but even still. He's just too sympathetic. At this point in the story, book-readers mostly despise Jaime Lannister. He's done bad things, but worse, he's just way too arrogant and cocky and full of himself. The show tries to get that across, but Jaime frankly comes across as more charasmatic than cocky. Some of that is the natural charisma of the actor, but a lot of it is because of the too little screentime afforded to each particular narrative. He needed to do something to make him seem more dispicable right now so that his future story arc will be more in-line with the book Jaime's story arc.
To be honest I think it's the whole "I won't kill/capture Ned Stark because someone interfered in our fight" that really solidified him as a likeable character, at least for me. Sure it's suppose to represent his arrogance but really it just came off as being noble and having principles.
On May 30 2012 07:16 frontliner2 wrote: Tyrian becoming injured was very clear to me. The Kingsguards slashed one side of his face and snapped trough a cheekbone or jawbone. Tyrian is fine. He's not bleeding heavily.
He could die of infection though.
I agree that he is probably fine, as a result of the battle ending shortly after his injury.
But what I don't understand is why the Kings guard slashed him in the first place? Is this supposed to be taken as accidental? That is, just swinging in the chaos of battle? Or is this supposed to be taken as a deliberate attempt to kill him?
I was confused but then lying in bed it came to me... Cersei! She is so bent on hurting Tyrian it must have been her.
Why would she do that? She'd rather watch him suffer.
She (thinks she) has Tyrion's girl locked up somewhere, she said she made it her life goal to watch him as she takes what he loves away from him. She would get absolutely zero satisfaction out of knowing that he died on a battlefield somewhere; in fact, she would probably be angry about it.
Joffrey is possible, but again, I think he does have some respect for Tyrion as his family member/a leader of the war, just not seeing the motive for killing him off. It seems like something the Kingsguard wanted to do on his own.
Cersei saw a chance to kill Tyrion without anyone asking questions. I don't see how it doesn't make sense. I'm sure she would love to watch him suffer, but she knows that Tyrion is smart, so I would think she would take what ever chance she can get.
She has no reason whatsoever to kill him though. She loves her family, and even went as far as incest with two family members to keep the family close. I don't see Lannisters killing each other. Cersei is much more likely to make Tyrion watch his whore slowly getting tortured to death, and Jeoffry would make it some kind of big official thing and banish him from King's Landing in worst case scenarios. I highly doubt any of them would kill Tyrion - and even less secretly in the middle of the battlefield. Banishment is more likely from both characters. I'd say it's much more likely that one in the small council would pay the kingsguard guy to do it. Either Littlefinger or the eunuch are prime suspects as they're both political rivals and have their own agendas. The eunuch seems to approve of Tyrion's acts in defending the city though. Tyrion had played his part in the defense by that point though, so who knows.. Littlefinger I'd say is the most likely character to be behind the attempted murder. Littlefinger seems to like keeping the city stable and having Lannisters in power as it doesn't jeopardize his power, but he's no particular reason to like Tyrion. Then again he's got no known reason to kill him either. He's a guy with a complete lack of honour and moral though, and maybe he thinks he can get the job to be hand?
TL;DR: Maybe Littlefinger or the eunuch... maybe.
Would anyone care to guess how many children Tyrion has running about by the way? Or the amount of venereal diseases he's caught? ^^
I've just been rewatching the first season on HBOgo. I have to say, the interaction between Eddard and Arya in the third episode is more enjoyable than all of Arya/Tywin's scenes in season two put together. Very heartwarming, and lots of insight into both of the charactors, while Tywin is nothing but an especially brilliant snake.
I know lots of people on this forum seem to like Tywin, and I agree he is fun to watch. He is also an especially dangerous kind of evil. The show is certainly more entertaining b/c of his presence, but the Realm is certainly worse for it.
On May 30 2012 10:38 Mercy13 wrote: I've just been rewatching the first season on HBOgo. I have to say, the interaction between Eddard and Arya in the third episode is more enjoyable than all of Arya/Tywin's scenes in season two put together. Very heartwarming, and lots of insight into both of the charactors, while Tywin is nothing but an especially brilliant snake.
I know lots of people on this forum seem to like Tywin, and I agree he is fun to watch. He is also an especially dangerous kind of evil. The show is certainly more entertaining b/c of his presence, but the Realm is certainly worse for it.
Dunno 'bout evil. He's pretty realistically portrayed imo. Like a human being he's neither "good" or "evil". This is not the classic hollywood movie where absolute divine "good" is fighting absolute and hellish "evil". He's a person who's absolutely devoted to his family, and that's his highest priority. In order to make his family as prominent as possible he needs to stabilize the realm, and beat down the rebels who's tearing up and threatening his lands. From a evolutionary standpoint, he's acting the most rational of everyone. He's doing everything in his power to make the name Lannister last through the ages.
On May 30 2012 10:38 Mercy13 wrote: I've just been rewatching the first season on HBOgo. I have to say, the interaction between Eddard and Arya in the third episode is more enjoyable than all of Arya/Tywin's scenes in season two put together. Very heartwarming, and lots of insight into both of the charactors, while Tywin is nothing but an especially brilliant snake.
I know lots of people on this forum seem to like Tywin, and I agree he is fun to watch. He is also an especially dangerous kind of evil. The show is certainly more entertaining b/c of his presence, but the Realm is certainly worse for it.
I like the line about Tywin being an especially brilliant snake, though I don't quite consider him evil. Tywin is pure machiavellian. I always think of him as pragmatic taken to the absolute extreme.
(Vote): Cersei Lannister (Vote): Joffrey Lannister ( u see what I did thar) (Vote): Viserys Targaryen (Vote): Jaime Lannister (Vote): Renly Baratheon (Vote): Stannis Baratheon (Vote): Daenerys Targaryen (Vote): Varys something something ( I don't know) (Vote): Tyrion Lannister (Vote): Theon Greyjoy (Vote): Tywin Lannister (Vote): Other
I'll do this every dozen page or so.
Interesting how so many people hates Dany. Technically she is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, so I wonder if Stannis will bend the knee if she does arrive at Westeros. I'd also love to see how Robert and Ned would react to her arrival.
(Vote): Cersei Lannister (Vote): Joffrey Lannister ( u see what I did thar) (Vote): Viserys Targaryen (Vote): Jaime Lannister (Vote): Renly Baratheon (Vote): Stannis Baratheon (Vote): Daenerys Targaryen (Vote): Varys something something ( I don't know) (Vote): Tyrion Lannister (Vote): Theon Greyjoy (Vote): Tywin Lannister (Vote): Other
I'll do this every dozen page or so.
Interesting how so many people hates Dany. Technically she is the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, so I wonder if Stannis will bend the knee if she does arrive at Westeros. I'd also love to see how Robert and Ned would react to her arrival.
It's been mentioned a lot in the thread. Imo she just whines in every shot she's in. She doesn't really do anything, but rather just reacts to situations around her. Usually by stomping the ground and yelling her name, titles and that her dragons will melt faces soon™. How long was it since her dragons got captured, and how long had she been talking about going to the temple of the undying? Just an example. She's basically on the same level as her brother in terms of competence and charisma. I really hope she doesn't end up conquering Westeros.
Rightful heir obviously means nothing. None really cares about it, apart from large amount of people who could consider themselves that. The Targaryans conquered the throne as well. So somewhere there's children of the king before that who also consider themselves rightful heirs. It's all a big mess. Either you're king or you're not and that's all what counts.
On May 30 2012 10:38 Mercy13 wrote: I've just been rewatching the first season on HBOgo. I have to say, the interaction between Eddard and Arya in the third episode is more enjoyable than all of Arya/Tywin's scenes in season two put together. Very heartwarming, and lots of insight into both of the charactors, while Tywin is nothing but an especially brilliant snake.
I know lots of people on this forum seem to like Tywin, and I agree he is fun to watch. He is also an especially dangerous kind of evil. The show is certainly more entertaining b/c of his presence, but the Realm is certainly worse for it.
Dunno 'bout evil. He's pretty realistically portrayed imo. Like a human being he's neither "good" or "evil". This is not the classic hollywood movie where absolute divine "good" is fighting absolute and hellish "evil". He's a person who's absolutely devoted to his family, and that's his highest priority. In order to make his family as prominent as possible he needs to stabilize the realm, and beat down the rebels who's tearing up and threatening his lands. From a evolutionary standpoint, he's acting the most rational of everyone. He's doing everything in his power to make the name Lannister last through the ages.
What's he done that's so evil anyway?
Well... mb evil is too strong a word. I believe that one of the greatest strengths of the series is that, as you suggest, no character in the show is truly good or evil. Some are much more good (or evil) than others however.
As for things that Tywin has done that I would characterize as evil: - The thing w/ Tyrion and his wife. He had a girl gang-raped to prove a point. - He unleashed Ser Gregor and Ser Armory on the countryside. They have been burning and killing hundreds if not thousands of civilians. This isn't just collateral damage, it is exactly what Tywin wants them to do, in order to terrorize his enemies. - He is terrorizing his own army because he thinks someone tried to assassinate him. For the past two episodes you can see him randomly hanging soldiers that are sworn to his service, that he presumably swore to protect in turn. - The events referenced by the song "The Rains of Castamere," where, according to the show's bonus features, Tywin "annihilated" an entire family. This implies that the massacre included children, infants, whoever.
There are other things too, though the references are not always direct. I absolutely do not think Tywin is "devoted to his family." He is devoted to the PRESTIGE of his family, or maybe obsessed is a better word. He would slaughter thousands of people to repay an insult to the Lannister name, and he will see a Lannister on the throne at literally any cost.
At least that's my take on the character. Sorry if I'm being a bit melodramatic, I've been drinking wine all night whilst rewatching the first season and it's put me in a funny mood : )
On May 30 2012 10:38 Mercy13 wrote: I've just been rewatching the first season on HBOgo. I have to say, the interaction between Eddard and Arya in the third episode is more enjoyable than all of Arya/Tywin's scenes in season two put together. Very heartwarming, and lots of insight into both of the charactors, while Tywin is nothing but an especially brilliant snake.
I know lots of people on this forum seem to like Tywin, and I agree he is fun to watch. He is also an especially dangerous kind of evil. The show is certainly more entertaining b/c of his presence, but the Realm is certainly worse for it.
Dunno 'bout evil. He's pretty realistically portrayed imo. Like a human being he's neither "good" or "evil". This is not the classic hollywood movie where absolute divine "good" is fighting absolute and hellish "evil". He's a person who's absolutely devoted to his family, and that's his highest priority. In order to make his family as prominent as possible he needs to stabilize the realm, and beat down the rebels who's tearing up and threatening his lands. From a evolutionary standpoint, he's acting the most rational of everyone. He's doing everything in his power to make the name Lannister last through the ages.
What's he done that's so evil anyway?
Well... mb evil is too strong a word. I believe that one of the greatest strengths of the series is that, as you suggest, no character in the show is truly good or evil. Some are much more good (or evil) than others however.
As for things that Tywin has done that I would characterize as evil: - The thing w/ Tyrion and his wife. He had a girl gang-raped to prove a point. - He unleashed Ser Gregor and Ser Armory on the countryside. They have been burning and killing hundreds if not thousands of civilians. This isn't just collateral damage, it is exactly what Tywin wants them to do, in order to terrorize his enemies. - He is terrorizing his own army because he thinks someone tried to assassinate him. For the past two episodes you can see him randomly hanging soldiers that are sworn to his service, that he presumably swore to protect in turn. - The events referenced by the song "The Rains of Castamere," where, according to the show's bonus features, Tywin "annihilated" an entire family. This implies that the massacre included children, infants, whoever.
There are other things too, though the references are not always direct. I absolutely do not think Tywin is "devoted to his family." He is devoted to the PRESTIGE of his family, or maybe obsessed is a better word. He would slaughter thousands of people to repay an insult to the Lannister name, and he will see a Lannister on the throne at literally any cost.
At least that's my take on the character. Sorry if I'm being a bit melodramatic, I've been drinking wine all night whilst rewatching the first season and it's put me in a funny mood : )
Well I'm up way past bed time (04:24 am) and in an arguing mode so here goes: ^^ -The girl who was gang raped was actually a prostitute, and it was mentioned that she got vastly overpayed. "by the end she had gotten so many silver coins, she could no longer carry them" or something along those lines. -The terrorizing is what every army does in a war. It's just tactics. Lowers enemy moral. -I think he's after the hidden or whatever they're called. The same kind of dudes like the murderer guy who Arya commands(?). He's just rooting out traitorous assassins. Remember that Lannister soldiers seem to be recruited in all kinds of manner. The assassin went from being picked up randomly in an enemy camp (he was released from the cage before the soldiers found him) to being a solider in the Lannister army. -I havn't seen any bonus features so I can't comment on that. Edit. Yeah I do recall there being things about that. He killed the mad kings children right? The Targaryans. Well it makes sense right? Most of the current nobles in Westeros would like the dragon girl to die, as the Targaryans have the power to command dragons that can screw up their entire pyramid of power. Imagine if there were 15 dragon girls roaming around.
He's devoted to every aspect of his family as far as I can tell. The prestige is important. If other houses think of them weak, they are weak. You're only as powerful as others consider you. As the eunuch said: Power is only shadow on the wall. He's devoted to keeping the family name powerful in the future. He's not really interested in personal gain.
anyone interested in the "power ranking" in the series (of hand to hand combat), after what Jamie said the other week im wondering who would go where at the moment:
The old guy (kings guard bloke who was dismissed by Jeoffry and everyone was afraid to fight him) Jamie Ned (before he died he put up a good fight against jamie before someone else stepped in) Rob Stark possibly the butch women who's got Jamie captive? The Hound The Mountain Tywin Theon
All i can think of right now, silly ranking i guess because we don't get to see them all fight, be that to me seems fair so far.
Imo, Hound is probably number 1. Combination of pure power and agility. Then Barriston Selmy (that old guy), Brienne (that butch woman), Jaimie, Syrio, and Bronn.
The mountain deserves special mention. He isn't particularly skilled he is just freakin huge and has really really thick armor.
On May 30 2012 11:50 UdderChaos wrote: anyone interested in the "power ranking" in the series (of hand to hand combat), after what Jamie said the other week im wondering who would go where at the moment:
The old guy (kings guard bloke who was dismissed by Jeoffry and everyone was afraid to fight him) Jamie Ned (before he died he put up a good fight against jamie before someone else stepped in) Rob Stark possibly the butch women who's got Jamie captive? The Hound The Mountain Tywin Theon
All i can think of right now, silly ranking i guess because we don't get to see them all fight, be that to me seems fair so far.
Theon seems like a pretty shit fighter so far. He couldn't even behead the old guy with one cleave. He had to strike like 5 times. Tywin and the old kingsguard seem to old at this point. They don't have the stamina. They're both like 60+? Tyrions bodyguard should be a top contender. Dunno about the Targaryan girls bodyguard either. He could be a pretty good swordfighter. If you're going to include dead people you should include Aryas dancing master. He was only beaten because he wielded a wooden sword. Snow seem decent as well.
On May 30 2012 11:56 GhostOwl wrote: @Euronyme
^ Powerful family name IS personal gain though. It benefits others (the rest of ur family) as well as yourself, but in the end, it still benefits you.
EDIT: Got ninja'd for the post spot by the guy directly above me
I was kind of quoting him. In one of the earlier episodes he's lecturing Jamie that personal gain, glory and honour is pointless. Family is what persists through history etc.
On May 30 2012 10:38 Mercy13 wrote: I've just been rewatching the first season on HBOgo. I have to say, the interaction between Eddard and Arya in the third episode is more enjoyable than all of Arya/Tywin's scenes in season two put together. Very heartwarming, and lots of insight into both of the charactors, while Tywin is nothing but an especially brilliant snake.
I know lots of people on this forum seem to like Tywin, and I agree he is fun to watch. He is also an especially dangerous kind of evil. The show is certainly more entertaining b/c of his presence, but the Realm is certainly worse for it.
Dunno 'bout evil. He's pretty realistically portrayed imo. Like a human being he's neither "good" or "evil". This is not the classic hollywood movie where absolute divine "good" is fighting absolute and hellish "evil". He's a person who's absolutely devoted to his family, and that's his highest priority. In order to make his family as prominent as possible he needs to stabilize the realm, and beat down the rebels who's tearing up and threatening his lands. From a evolutionary standpoint, he's acting the most rational of everyone. He's doing everything in his power to make the name Lannister last through the ages.
What's he done that's so evil anyway?
Well... mb evil is too strong a word. I believe that one of the greatest strengths of the series is that, as you suggest, no character in the show is truly good or evil. Some are much more good (or evil) than others however.
As for things that Tywin has done that I would characterize as evil: - The thing w/ Tyrion and his wife. He had a girl gang-raped to prove a point. - He unleashed Ser Gregor and Ser Armory on the countryside. They have been burning and killing hundreds if not thousands of civilians. This isn't just collateral damage, it is exactly what Tywin wants them to do, in order to terrorize his enemies. - He is terrorizing his own army because he thinks someone tried to assassinate him. For the past two episodes you can see him randomly hanging soldiers that are sworn to his service, that he presumably swore to protect in turn. - The events referenced by the song "The Rains of Castamere," where, according to the show's bonus features, Tywin "annihilated" an entire family. This implies that the massacre included children, infants, whoever.
There are other things too, though the references are not always direct. I absolutely do not think Tywin is "devoted to his family." He is devoted to the PRESTIGE of his family, or maybe obsessed is a better word. He would slaughter thousands of people to repay an insult to the Lannister name, and he will see a Lannister on the throne at literally any cost.
At least that's my take on the character. Sorry if I'm being a bit melodramatic, I've been drinking wine all night whilst rewatching the first season and it's put me in a funny mood : )
Well I'm up way past bed time (04:24 am) and in an arguing mode so here goes: ^^ -The girl who was gang raped was actually a prostitute, and it was mentioned that she got vastly overpayed. "by the end she had gotten so many silver coins, she could no longer carry them" or something along those lines. -The terrorizing is what every army does in a war. It's just tactics. Lowers enemy moral. -I think he's after the hidden or whatever they're called. The same kind of dudes like the murderer guy who Arya commands(?). He's just rooting out traitorous assassins. Remember that Lannister soldiers seem to be recruited in all kinds of manner. The assassin went from being picked up randomly in an enemy camp (he was released from the cage before the soldiers found him) to being a solider in the Lannister army. -I havn't seen any bonus features so I can't comment on that.
He's devoted to every aspect of his family as far as I can tell. The prestige is important. If other houses think of them weak, they are weak. You're only as powerful as others consider you. As the eunuch said: Power is only shadow on the wall. He's devoted to keeping the family name powerful in the future. He's not really interested in personal gain.
I think we are in very real danger of getting into a debate over objective vs. subjective system of ethics... If that happens may the gods help us all : )
Your responses for the most part seem to be explaining the motivations behind Tywin's actions. I agree that those motivations are likely accurate, but that doesn't excuse his actions. For example, believing that an assassin is hiding in his army does not justify randomly hanging soldiers. I agree that I am viewing his actions through modern sensibilities, but that should not be relevant in determining whether his actions were "good," "evil," or "neither," at least if one is an objectivist (oh jeez, sorry).
The only bullet I have a serious problem with is the first one. PLEASE don't suggest that it's ok to rape prostitutes as long as you pay them : / that's not cool dude.
Finally, of course prestige is important. Different people in GoT go to different lengths to obtain it, but I think all of them, from Eddard, to Littlefinger, to Tywin know how important it is. The lengths they will go to to get it is what distiguishes the good one from the bad ones. I believe Tywin would sacrifice anything for the prestige of his family, up to and including the lives of his children. Thus I characterize him as evil. However, evil is a very loaded term and I can accept that we have different views on it.
EPT
