On August 15 2017 04:27 Plansix wrote: I liked all the teleporting(aka, traveling). It was linear. Everyone said they were going to a place. They went to a place and then they returned from a place. Then they left to go to another place and arrived. That episode spanned a full month(more if we count the travel to the north by boat), but it move forward in a liner fashion.
Yeah the teleporting is fine when done like this. There wasn't anything in the episode that really contradicted the timing of the episode so the travel could actually take a notable amount of time and it makes sense across the plot lines. Except maybe for unresolved Unsullied/Euron plot lines where months have passed and nothing has happened with them.
On August 15 2017 04:27 Plansix wrote: I liked all the teleporting(aka, traveling). It was linear. Everyone said they were going to a place. They went to a place and then they returned from a place. Then they left to go to another place and arrived. That episode spanned a full month(more if we count the travel to the north by boat), but it move forward in a liner fashion.
On August 15 2017 04:24 ShAsTa wrote: I don't understand the plan at all. Why do they need to convince Cersei? Are they assuming she'll just suspend hostilities, fight the dead alongside them and not backstab? If so, that's utterly moronic.
They need Dany and her armies to win. She can’t come help while at war with Kingslanding, because they will trap her in the north. Uprooting them from Kingslanding will take to long. So they want an armistice. And the Evil Queen will go for it because she knows she will lose the war, so why not buy time.
It only makes sense if you are teleporting. They send a ship to Eastwatch by the sea, let's say 3 weeks of travel. Then they send a team of wrighttamers out to catch the magical undead that will show the whole world they exist. They walk for a few days, meet the stationary yet walking warmy of ice, catch one wright, Thoros, Gendry and Jorah die heroically, then they walk back, get into the boat, sail back to dragon stone, sail to Kings Landing and present the proof. Let's say that takes them 2 months. In the same time, time will stop from moving in all places but winterfell. There a rebellion will start, because their king has been gone for 6 months now. Then they add the remaining forces of Cersei to their huge army and go north just in time that the army of Ice unfreezes.
If you want to break the wheel, don't attack kingslanding, attack the Red Keep with your Dragons directly. Burn Cersei to crisp through the window launch another stealth attack threw the sewers. Anything else but this. But their idea was, "wouldn't it be really cool if we have Cersei and Daenerys glare at each other from the same army? - Whoah, man, that's fucking brilliant!"
On August 15 2017 04:21 Broetchenholer wrote: Seriously, this episode was what is wrong with the show. That was a full hour of completely non-sensical teleporting, fanservice, tactical stupidity and ignoring any logic or common knowledge.
It starts with Jaime and Bran magically appearing somewhere that is not a dragons mouth or a prison. Then they come up with the most stupid plan ever, to smuggle two people into the city so they can have a talk with their enemy. That is so infuriating. Just capture them with the rest of the army, then tell them that their are undead and let him go back. Problem fucking solved. But they had to do it because they really needed to revive Gendry so they could have the rowing line. Wink wink. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK! Don't get me started on Jorah the Andal, that was revived to die heroically by Nights King or the idea that catching a wright and presenting him to the south as proof. And then Cersei is like i did let my brother escape because i am a crazy person when the plot needs it and a master of tactics and war whenever that serves the plot. And then there is that forced drama in Winterfell. It's like a romcom where at the end, there has to be a stupid mistake by one person so that the reunion is so much sweeter.
I see a lot of people bringing up/complaining about how Jamie/Bronn were able to just swim away. First, from Dany's point of view it probably looked like the two of them were toasted. Second, it is extremely likely that Dany had no clue who was charging after her, given that she had never met Jamie before, and only actually looked at him for an instant before the Dragon shot fire at him. So even if she did see them dive into the water, in her mind it probably wouldn't even be worth the time to chase after two nobodies, who are no longer a threat/possibly dead, when her dragon is sitting there injured and there is still a battle going on.
Tyrion was 10 meters away. He knew. And if he thought he was toast, he didn't show a single emotion. It just happened and then the next thing happened. There is no reason for it except that their plot needed it.
On August 14 2017 18:32 Pr0wler wrote: Here is the simple gameplan to defeat everyone and end the series in one or two episodes. Send one dragon to kill the dead. One dragon to deal with the Iron fleet and another to keep the siege on King's Landing going. Make gazillion arrow tips from the dragon glass to kill whatever the first dragon missed. Game over.
This whole plan of capturing a dead man and then showing it to Cersei is completely pointless to me. They don't need Lannister's army to defead the dead... They have 3 F-35s and the army of the dead are just walking zombies. Even one will deal with them just fine.
Pretty weak episode.
Okey, since people seem to fucking forget what Jon has seen in the past and what has driven him to take the decisions he has taken thus far (or what the writers found appropiate), i guess it's needed to remind you all of Hardhome and its marvelous mist.
You are taking for granted that the white walkers don't have access to powerful magic to balance the scales. Or even their own frost wyrms or something like that.
So back on point, Jon has caught a glimpse of how powerful the white walkers are, and it was absolutely terrifying. He knows they will need every help they can get and the alternative is complete annihilation. Delivering factual evidence to Cersei is the only way to get Daenerys to focus on the white walkers army rather than the throne. It's not about getting the Lannister's army, even tho it helps, it's about getting Daenerys full support. In my opinion they should bring the evidence to the meisters, or however they are called in english (where Sam was studying until this chapter), but i don't know how feasible it is.
I won't argue that some of the dialogues feel rather weak and bland nowadays compared to previous seasons, but i don't let it bother me much. The story is moving fast, and you can't have those awesome five minute dialogues of the past.
On August 15 2017 04:21 Broetchenholer wrote: Seriously, this episode was what is wrong with the show. That was a full hour of completely non-sensical teleporting, fanservice, tactical stupidity and ignoring any logic or common knowledge.
It starts with Jaime and Bran magically appearing somewhere that is not a dragons mouth or a prison. Then they come up with the most stupid plan ever, to smuggle two people into the city so they can have a talk with their enemy. That is so infuriating. Just capture them with the rest of the army, then tell them that their are undead and let him go back. Problem fucking solved. But they had to do it because they really needed to revive Gendry so they could have the rowing line. Wink wink. FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK! Don't get me started on Jorah the Andal, that was revived to die heroically by Nights King or the idea that catching a wright and presenting him to the south as proof. And then Cersei is like i did let my brother escape because i am a crazy person when the plot needs it and a master of tactics and war whenever that serves the plot. And then there is that forced drama in Winterfell. It's like a romcom where at the end, there has to be a stupid mistake by one person so that the reunion is so much sweeter.
I see a lot of people bringing up/complaining about how Jamie/Bronn were able to just swim away. First, from Dany's point of view it probably looked like the two of them were toasted. Second, it is extremely likely that Dany had no clue who was charging after her, given that she had never met Jamie before, and only actually looked at him for an instant before the Dragon shot fire at him. So even if she did see them dive into the water, in her mind it probably wouldn't even be worth the time to chase after two nobodies, who are no longer a threat/possibly dead, when her dragon is sitting there injured and there is still a battle going on.
Tyrion was 10 meters away. He knew. And if he thought he was toast, he didn't show a single emotion. It just happened and then the next thing happened. There is no reason for it except that their plot needed it.
On the list of things that are totally believable: Two people slipping away in a chaotic battle where communication is very hard due to the screaming and burning isn’t that far out there. This is the era where communication was so hard some armies used drums to communicate orders.
I liked all the teleporting(aka, traveling). It was linear. Everyone said they were going to a place. They went to a place and then they returned from a place. Then they left to go to another place and arrived. That episode spanned a full month(more if we count the travel to the north by boat), but it move forward in a liner fashion.
Yeh they definitely increased the pace here. It reminds me somewhat of Cait going to Kings landing in espide 3 of season 1 (IIRC) and just getting there ASAP. We don't need to see her whole travel.
Alot of the issue that S5 and S6 had was a consequence of GRRMs writing where we had to spend years hearing about someone travelling around and doing almost nothing. In my opinion you don't obtain "depth" just by having various conversations with some characters. Rather, I am more interested in learning how they act under pressure/difficult situations/conflicts. Obviously there are exceptions if we can learn about their backstories as in the case of the Brienne vs Jaime interaction.
In this season, important and relevant stuff happens all the time and it makes for a more interesting show.
This type of episode would also never have occured previously as the writers have streamlined the show to focus on fewer parts and thus we don't need to have the action be divided across several episodes.
Arya being that hostile towards Sansa seems also a bit strange and forced, but i guess i can buy it somewhat. I could buy it more if they stayed consistent with Arya's development though. In one scene she is a psychopath freak, in the other she sings with ed sheeran.
The writing definitely suffers from not being consistent enough. It is like the writers suddenly realize "oh it would be better for the plot for X to happen", and then they make that the case even though it doesn't seem that believeable given the characters previous behavior.
Anyway don't think alot will come out of this. They are just trying to add in some fake drama to keep winterfell relevant while the action happens elsewhere. At the end of the season I still expect Littlefinger to die - killed by Arya.
On August 15 2017 05:43 CorsairHero wrote: How did Tyrion and others know that Jaime survived
I think that's just kind of a legitimate plot hole, but you can also assume that time has passed since the battle and Jaime has been seen in King's Landing (and Varys got word of it).
Alternatively Tyrion didn't find Jaime's corpse where it would have been, or saw Jaime get pushed into the water.
I liked all the teleporting(aka, traveling). It was linear. Everyone said they were going to a place. They went to a place and then they returned from a place. Then they left to go to another place and arrived. That episode spanned a full month(more if we count the travel to the north by boat), but it move forward in a liner fashion.
Yeh they definitely increased the pace here. It reminds me somewhat of Cait going to Kings landing in espide 3 of season 1 (IIRC) and just getting there ASAP. We don't need to see her whole travel.
Alot of the issue that S5 and S6 had was a consequence of GRRMs writing where we had to spend years hearing about someone travelling around and doing almost nothing. In my opinion you don't obtain "depth" just by having various conversations with some characters. Rather, I am more interested in learning how they act under pressure/difficult situations/conflicts.
And in this season, important and relevant stuff happens all the time and it makes for a more interesting show.
The first three seasons that travel was interesting. It was used as a tool for world building and complexity, and was offset by the action and political intrigue. The problem is that is continues through seasons 4-6, which completely bogs down the plot with endless travel from point A-B. You dread Stannis leaving the wall because its just going to be dull. I am firmly of the opinion that the show should have switched formats and moved a series of focused episodes after those seasons. The entire Arya training plot could have been resolved in a 3-5 of really interesting, well paced episodes spread out throughout the seasons. And it would have eliminated a lot of the complaints about how disjointed the timeline got. The format of having all sort arcs all peak at the same time results in a lot of meh writing, since they have to kill time.
One thing I haven't heard anyone mention is the Tyrells. Now you would think they played a major part in the plot right?
Except... They never really mattered. All they did was killing Joffrey. Besides that they got a ton of scenes and characters with no direct impact on the plot.
If one was to rewrite the show without the boundaries of the book, it would probably have been better to merge the tyrells and dorne together. Would require a ton of changes but it would make for a simpler show without removing any depth. I also think the whole high septern thing in S6 and S5 was really boring. Should also just have been skipped.
You could probably just have merged S5 and S6 together as well. Or... with the added time, I would have liked to see more of the Westeros stories connected to Dany's timelines (on a polictical/war level) in S5.
Like what if the lannisters/someone else was participating in the war for/against slaveries. What if Dany invaded Westeros - not just because she wanted to - but becasue she heavily disagreed with Cersei's politics. Overall Dany's storylines was really bad after she became a ruler. She was always benefiting from plot-armor and the politics never mattered to me becasue it was so distinct from the rest of the world.
[✔] Teleport from Dragonstone to the EastWatch. [ ] Charge into the Army of the Dead and capture a Wight. [ ] Somehow escape back behind The Wall before getting murdered by the killer ice zombies. [ ] Teleport to King's Landing. [ ] Convince Cersei. (Hardest part)
Tyrion might have seen them fall into the lake and get out, then kept it to himself so his brother is not incinerated, as he obviously wouldn't bow. There are bigger plot holes IMO, like the dragon liking Jon from the get go. It made sense with Daenerys, as she was there when it hatched,, but "sensing the Targaryen blood" is bullshit.
I liked all the teleporting(aka, traveling). It was linear. Everyone said they were going to a place. They went to a place and then they returned from a place. Then they left to go to another place and arrived. That episode spanned a full month(more if we count the travel to the north by boat), but it move forward in a liner fashion.
Yeh they definitely increased the pace here. It reminds me somewhat of Cait going to Kings landing in espide 3 of season 1 (IIRC) and just getting there ASAP. We don't need to see her whole travel.
Alot of the issue that S5 and S6 had was a consequence of GRRMs writing where we had to spend years hearing about someone travelling around and doing almost nothing. In my opinion you don't obtain "depth" just by having various conversations with some characters. Rather, I am more interested in learning how they act under pressure/difficult situations/conflicts.
And in this season, important and relevant stuff happens all the time and it makes for a more interesting show.
The first three seasons that travel was interesting. It was used as a tool for world building and complexity, and was offset by the action and political intrigue. The problem is that is continues through seasons 4-6, which completely bogs down the plot with endless travel from point A-B. You dread Stannis leaving the wall because its just going to be dull. I am firmly of the opinion that the show should have switched formats and moved a series of focused episodes after those seasons. The entire Arya training plot could have been resolved in a 3-5 of really interesting, well paced episodes spread out throughout the seasons. And it would have eliminated a lot of the complaints about how disjointed the timeline got. The format of having all sort arcs all peak at the same time results in a lot of meh writing, since they have to kill time.
Yeh Aryas storylines would have been fine if it was 5 episodes. Instead, it felt terrible because she was there for 2 seasons just "training" and we always thought there was more to them that we ought to learn rather than them just being faceless assasins. So when she just killed terminator at the end and ran away... That was it?
I assume you also imply that they should have merged S5 and S6 together then? Otherwise it doesn't seem like there would be enough content.
That said, they did manage to increase viewership over time and they made more money for HBO by having 8 seasons instead of 7, so it worked out in the end for them.
On August 15 2017 03:27 Emnjay808 wrote: I wish they spent more time explaining why Cersei's hair hasnt grown back yet. That would at least legitimize all the time-skipping Jon and co. has undergone to get around Westeros.
When Cersei is asleep at night, someone is teleporting into her chambers and cutting her hair without her noticing.
On August 14 2017 17:58 FueledUpAndReadyToGo wrote: The westeros avengers better have brought some sick dragonglass weaponry. They haven't shown any but it was the whole reason Jon Snow went away from Winterfell in the first place. I'm going to be angry if they can't kill the wights because they didn't bring them. The plan is pretty darn stupid in the first place (expect nothing less from Jon lol) but they could at least be well prepared.
I thought Dany and Jon would do their song of ice and fire in bed and then fly to the Wall on dragons together after seeing last weeks preview, pretty disappointed . At least he got Drogons approval.
Arya got played like a fiddle. Perhaps Littlefinger has experience with hiring faceless ones and recognized her movements.
1. Guarentee you the only thing they have is longclaw 2. Give them time. Like i dunno. 13 days? 3. That's a way cooler way of explaining it, and I like the implications.
As far as Arya goes I still can't believe people just squeel with joy whenever she does or says anything. She's the most troubled/deranged young teen I've ever seen in my life.
I liked all the teleporting(aka, traveling). It was linear. Everyone said they were going to a place. They went to a place and then they returned from a place. Then they left to go to another place and arrived. That episode spanned a full month(more if we count the travel to the north by boat), but it move forward in a liner fashion.
Yeh they definitely increased the pace here. It reminds me somewhat of Cait going to Kings landing in espide 3 of season 1 (IIRC) and just getting there ASAP. We don't need to see her whole travel.
Alot of the issue that S5 and S6 had was a consequence of GRRMs writing where we had to spend years hearing about someone travelling around and doing almost nothing. In my opinion you don't obtain "depth" just by having various conversations with some characters. Rather, I am more interested in learning how they act under pressure/difficult situations/conflicts.
And in this season, important and relevant stuff happens all the time and it makes for a more interesting show.
The first three seasons that travel was interesting. It was used as a tool for world building and complexity, and was offset by the action and political intrigue. The problem is that is continues through seasons 4-6, which completely bogs down the plot with endless travel from point A-B. You dread Stannis leaving the wall because its just going to be dull. I am firmly of the opinion that the show should have switched formats and moved a series of focused episodes after those seasons. The entire Arya training plot could have been resolved in a 3-5 of really interesting, well paced episodes spread out throughout the seasons. And it would have eliminated a lot of the complaints about how disjointed the timeline got. The format of having all sort arcs all peak at the same time results in a lot of meh writing, since they have to kill time.
I assume you also imply that they should have merged S5 and S6 together then? Otherwise it doesn't seem like there would be enough content.
That said, they did manage to increase viewership over time and they made more money for HBO by having 8 seasons instead of 7, so it worked out in the end for them.
I am not sure it would work for every plot line and whole episodes might be to much. But condensing the Arya training plot so it wasn’t dragged out over 20-23 episodes would have improved it. One of the best episodes in the last couple seasons is the battle of the bastards, which is almost entirely focused on that one topic. In the later seasons, the lack of focus is the main weakness of the writing and the week to week format. The pay off was not always worth the wait.
On August 15 2017 06:04 usopsama wrote: Jon Snow's To-do list:
[✔] Teleport from Dragonstone to the EastWatch. [ ] Charge into the Army of the Dead and capture a Wight. [ ] Somehow escape back behind The Wall before getting murdered by the killer ice zombies. [ ] Fuck his aunt (easiest part) [ ] Teleport to King's Landing. [ ] Convince Cersei. (Hardest part)
With regards to Stannis, this should just have been merged into one with the battle of the north (jon's battle later one season).
In my opinion - while the battle was beutifully done - it was unbeliaveable that Jon would attack Winterfell knowing he was heavily outnumbered. Zero % change of them actually conquering the castle without help from Fingers.
However, if the storyline had been connected to stannis + wildling army attacking and stannis dying in the battle + perhaps the boltons outmanuvering them tactically --> Looks like they are losing --> Before the fingers come to aid them ---> They win in the end and Jon is crowned King in the north.
So little of relevance actually happened in S5. Imagine if we just had skipped straight from S4 to S6, would anything have changed?
On August 15 2017 06:16 Hider wrote: With regards to Stannis, this should just have been merged into one with the battle of the north (jon's battle later one season).
In my opinion - while the battle was beutifully done - it was unbeliaveable that Jon would attack Winterfell knowing he was heavily outnumbered. Zero % change of them actually conquering the castle without help from Fingers.
However, if the storyline had been connected to stannis + wildling army attacking and stannis dying in the battle + perhaps the boltons outmanuvering them tactically --> Looks like they are losing --> Before the fingers come to aid them --> Made more sense.
So little of relevance actually happened in S5. Imagine if we just had skipped straight from S4 to S6, would anything have changed?
EPT
. At least he got Drogons approval.
