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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 17 2011 00:59 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 23:09 piegasm wrote:On May 16 2011 22:09 PlaGuE_R wrote:OMG SEX! OMG!! OMG! RUN FOR THE HILLS! SHIELD YOUR EYES! AAH! SEX!!!! oh wait look, he cleaved a horse in half, AWESOME LOL oh wait AAAAH GAY SEX! AAAAH OMG! OMG!!! AAAAH GAY SEX!!!! oh look Jory with a knife thru his face, that's fucking awesome. I seriously hope you guys dont adopt the attitude you show on here in the bedroom with your wives/gf or thats bound to be a frigid relationship. Just so you understand why sex is important in any TV show, you need to remember what the top 3 motives for murder are first is sex second is money and third is power. so much intrigue and crap happens because of sex, The Hand's death, + Show Spoiler +Vyserys' death was because he sold his sister to be a sex slave but she rose up as more then that. Ned's death was for uncovering that Cersei and Jaime sleep together Theon's betrayal of the Starks can be foreshadowed by how he gets taunted by even a lowly whore about being a "ward" but all you guys see is titties and you have an aneurysm, however showing gore and blood's all gooooooood I really don't think the objection is to the simple fact that it's being shown. It's more in the fact that a lot of it is simply gratuitous. You don't need full frontal nudity in order to inform the audience that the characters in question are having or recently had sex. Two people in a bed, clearly wearing nothing under the blankets conveys the same message and has the added benefit of not alienating those who are squeemish about such things. I'm not the least bit offended by the nudity or the violence but I feel the message it sends is that the producers of the show aren't confident enough in their work to let it stand on its own merit so they throw in a bunch of gratuitous sex and violence. I'm not male but if I was I'd also be a little irked at the idea that the producers think I need said gratuitous sex and violence to make me want to watch their TV show. In the end it's a pretty minor complaint because I think the series is excellent overall. It's the first show in years I've cared to watch more than one episode of. I just think some of the sex is a bit gratuitous and extraneous and therefore unnecessary. The thing is, there's a TON of gratuitous sex scenes in the book. The writer also could have chosen diferent ways to express those scenes, or even not show them at all, since some of them were really explicit and not exactly important to the plot, but he kept it, that's the way he chose to tell the story. You can actually say they were faithfull to the books by showing all the nudity. It may be a problem that they have to cut some things to put these scenes in the TV show, but it is kinda weird being put off by the it's gratuity in the show but not in the books. Yes, they probally kept them also because it attract viewers, that's the point of the show, but if there is one series I think it's fair to do it it's this one.
Actually the book scenes were even better. I actually got a boner a few times while reading the books while none of the scenes in the TV show did that for me even with naked woman dangling their boobs.
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Wow, Lysa Tully seems even more batshit crazy than she was in the book.
spoilers
+ Show Spoiler +I never picked up on the Renly/Loras thing. Sansa and Ser Loras just seemed to end when he joined the kingsguard. But I like that fact that the scene provided a reason for Renly going after the crown. Unless I missed something it was pretty lacking in the books.
Also anyone complaining of gratuitous sex scenes in this show should never watch Spartacus: Blood and Sand.
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On May 16 2011 23:59 Flicky wrote:
I quite likethe show, but there's one thing that's starting to become a pet peeve for me.
Why the hell are the whores in this show all so knowledgable and why do they use them to explain so much? Are they that desperate to put some boobs and a bit of fucking in the show that they would have some illogical scene where some prostitute is explaining Theon's "hostage situation" or in the previous ep where the prostitute explains most of the viserys backstory.
They're whores for fuck sake. Why would they know anything. It just seems like bad writing to me.
ummm, whores are actually an infinite well of knowledge lol. Because men talk to them about things they cant tell other people, and they talk to them in general. Do you think there's anyone else theon would talk to about his situation? Whores are the best way to explain these bits imo and it makes the show deeper.
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my gf and me were kinda shocked after the loras+ranley scene (not because of the pictures but because of the development of the characters) and thought it was a bad decision to make such a drastic character change. but after reading some forums i realized that it seems common knowledge that they are gay!
i really didnt notice this relationship of ranley/loras at all while reading the books..it somehow slipped my mind. am i the only one here that didnt get around that?
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England2674 Posts
On May 17 2011 01:35 Stroggoz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 23:59 Flicky wrote:
I quite likethe show, but there's one thing that's starting to become a pet peeve for me.
Why the hell are the whores in this show all so knowledgable and why do they use them to explain so much? Are they that desperate to put some boobs and a bit of fucking in the show that they would have some illogical scene where some prostitute is explaining Theon's "hostage situation" or in the previous ep where the prostitute explains most of the viserys backstory.
They're whores for fuck sake. Why would they know anything. It just seems like bad writing to me. ummm, whores are actually an infinite well of knowledge lol. Because men talk to them about things they cant tell other people, and they talk to them in general. Do you think there's anyone else theon would talk to about his situation? Whores are the best way to explain these bits imo and it makes the show deeper.
Yeah but in the books other people told them this. Serious people with other roles and the whole revelation came about as a stronger effect. Having some sweaty guy fuck a woman who tell thems this makes it sound like they're some idiot who has never figured this out. I guarantee you the way they make Theon aware of his situation in the books is a hell of a lot better than having a whore suggest it.
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On May 17 2011 01:43 chroniX wrote:
my gf and me were kinda shocked after the loras+ranley scene (not because of the pictures but because of the development of the characters) and thought it was a bad decision to make such a drastic character change. but after reading some forums i realized that it seems common knowledge that they are gay!
i really didnt notice this relationship of ranley/loras at all while reading the books..it somehow slipped my mind. am i the only one here that didnt get around that?
Well Loras is a Knight of the Flowers in the Rainbow Guard. Can't remember if it says they are gay or not but hints it alot
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On May 17 2011 01:43 chroniX wrote:
my gf and me were kinda shocked after the loras+ranley scene (not because of the pictures but because of the development of the characters) and thought it was a bad decision to make such a drastic character change. but after reading some forums i realized that it seems common knowledge that they are gay!
i really didnt notice this relationship of ranley/loras at all while reading the books..it somehow slipped my mind. am i the only one here that didnt get around that?
it was pretty clear in the books
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On May 17 2011 01:44 Flicky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 01:35 Stroggoz wrote:On May 16 2011 23:59 Flicky wrote:
I quite likethe show, but there's one thing that's starting to become a pet peeve for me.
Why the hell are the whores in this show all so knowledgable and why do they use them to explain so much? Are they that desperate to put some boobs and a bit of fucking in the show that they would have some illogical scene where some prostitute is explaining Theon's "hostage situation" or in the previous ep where the prostitute explains most of the viserys backstory.
They're whores for fuck sake. Why would they know anything. It just seems like bad writing to me. ummm, whores are actually an infinite well of knowledge lol. Because men talk to them about things they cant tell other people, and they talk to them in general. Do you think there's anyone else theon would talk to about his situation? Whores are the best way to explain these bits imo and it makes the show deeper. Yeah but in the books other people told them this. Serious people with other roles and the whole revelation came about as a stronger effect. Having some sweaty guy fuck a woman who tell thems this makes it sound like they're some idiot who has never figured this out. I guarantee you the way they make Theon aware of his situation in the books is a hell of a lot better than having a whore suggest it.
How much screentime would it take in comparison?
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On May 17 2011 01:13 Maginor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 01:08 Quotidian wrote:On May 17 2011 01:00 Maginor wrote:On May 17 2011 00:33 Quotidian wrote:good episode, I'm just dissapointed that they botched/cut short the stuff at the Eyrie in favor of including stuff that was never even in the book. There was so much potential for atmospheric, cool and creepy stuff with the Eyrie that I would have loved to have seen, but we didn't even get a hint at how difficult it is to ascend the damn thing, let alone get a propper reveal about just how nuts Lysa is. She was just there, suddenly, being all theatrical and shit. Robert Arryn didn't seem the least bit sickly and frail either - just creepy - but whatever... Also, whenever there's any kind of action, the series gets a bit too close to Xena territory for my liking. The swordfight at the end really didn't do anything for me, but I LOVE the "quiet" parts of the show, and I'm perfectly fine with a ponderous drama with flashes of violence. + Show Spoiler [book 2] +Makes me worried for season 2 though. If they pull off the battle of the blackwater, I'll be amazed. But it'll likely just be hinted at with quick editing and total shots of cg ships burning, with a ton of stuff from the book cut. + Show Spoiler [book2] +
Martin is going to write the Blackwater episode himself, so I'm not too worried about that.
+ Show Spoiler +it has less to do with him writing it and more to do with budget and time. They didn't have the budget to fully realize the Eyrie, for instance. It's just a small set and a cg model in the distance That's not necessarily it. The ascent to the Eyrie did not serve that much of a purpose for the story. How hard would it have been to render the Eyrie from a few more angles if that was indeed necessary? We saw it from more perspectives than just the distance perspective already. + Show Spoiler [book2] +The Blackwater scenes will need a lot of people fighting, of course, which is more tricky, but if there is one scene they should put some budget into, it is that one.
One reason I think they reduced the screentime of the Eyrie is that it is only important for two episodes of this season, and then goes out of the story for a long while. Theon and Renly on the other hand are very important in the next season.
I just think the Eyrie would have been a great set-piece for the season - something that people would really have loved and remembered if it was done correctly. Now, it just seems like it felt victim to how the series so far has no sense of scale, distance or the passing of time. And I think doing justice to the entire scenario that's about to happen at the Eyrie would be more important than setting up some + Show Spoiler +pretty minor character relationships in the future seasons
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On May 17 2011 01:54 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 01:13 Maginor wrote:On May 17 2011 01:08 Quotidian wrote:On May 17 2011 01:00 Maginor wrote:On May 17 2011 00:33 Quotidian wrote:good episode, I'm just dissapointed that they botched/cut short the stuff at the Eyrie in favor of including stuff that was never even in the book. There was so much potential for atmospheric, cool and creepy stuff with the Eyrie that I would have loved to have seen, but we didn't even get a hint at how difficult it is to ascend the damn thing, let alone get a propper reveal about just how nuts Lysa is. She was just there, suddenly, being all theatrical and shit. Robert Arryn didn't seem the least bit sickly and frail either - just creepy - but whatever... Also, whenever there's any kind of action, the series gets a bit too close to Xena territory for my liking. The swordfight at the end really didn't do anything for me, but I LOVE the "quiet" parts of the show, and I'm perfectly fine with a ponderous drama with flashes of violence. + Show Spoiler [book 2] +Makes me worried for season 2 though. If they pull off the battle of the blackwater, I'll be amazed. But it'll likely just be hinted at with quick editing and total shots of cg ships burning, with a ton of stuff from the book cut. + Show Spoiler [book2] +
Martin is going to write the Blackwater episode himself, so I'm not too worried about that.
+ Show Spoiler +it has less to do with him writing it and more to do with budget and time. They didn't have the budget to fully realize the Eyrie, for instance. It's just a small set and a cg model in the distance That's not necessarily it. The ascent to the Eyrie did not serve that much of a purpose for the story. How hard would it have been to render the Eyrie from a few more angles if that was indeed necessary? We saw it from more perspectives than just the distance perspective already. + Show Spoiler [book2] +The Blackwater scenes will need a lot of people fighting, of course, which is more tricky, but if there is one scene they should put some budget into, it is that one.
One reason I think they reduced the screentime of the Eyrie is that it is only important for two episodes of this season, and then goes out of the story for a long while. Theon and Renly on the other hand are very important in the next season.
I just think the Eyrie would have been a great set-piece for the season - something that people would really have loved and remembered if it was done correctly. Now, it just seems like it felt victim to how the series so far has no sense of scale, distance or the passing of time. And I think doing justice to the entire scenario that's about to happen at the Eyrie would be more important than setting up some + Show Spoiler +pretty minor character relationships in the future seasons . That is unless they're completely changing a whole lot of stuff, which might happen, considering how far they've veered with Cersei and Robert's relationship.
I would have liked to see more of the Eyrie as well. At least there will be some more of it next episode.
+ Show Spoiler +The scene did not just set up Renly's relationship to Loras, though. It sets up a lot of his future decisions.
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It's a shame that there are almost more people here talking about the books or saying how different/alike the books are from the tv show than actually commenting on the episodes. There should be a separate thread for the books only imo.
Personally, I loved the last episode! My favourite so far, Ned is so honorable after choosing not to follow the King's orders!
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On May 17 2011 00:59 SKC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 23:09 piegasm wrote:On May 16 2011 22:09 PlaGuE_R wrote:OMG SEX! OMG!! OMG! RUN FOR THE HILLS! SHIELD YOUR EYES! AAH! SEX!!!! oh wait look, he cleaved a horse in half, AWESOME LOL oh wait AAAAH GAY SEX! AAAAH OMG! OMG!!! AAAAH GAY SEX!!!! oh look Jory with a knife thru his face, that's fucking awesome. I seriously hope you guys dont adopt the attitude you show on here in the bedroom with your wives/gf or thats bound to be a frigid relationship. Just so you understand why sex is important in any TV show, you need to remember what the top 3 motives for murder are first is sex second is money and third is power. so much intrigue and crap happens because of sex, The Hand's death, + Show Spoiler +Vyserys' death was because he sold his sister to be a sex slave but she rose up as more then that. Ned's death was for uncovering that Cersei and Jaime sleep together Theon's betrayal of the Starks can be foreshadowed by how he gets taunted by even a lowly whore about being a "ward" but all you guys see is titties and you have an aneurysm, however showing gore and blood's all gooooooood I really don't think the objection is to the simple fact that it's being shown. It's more in the fact that a lot of it is simply gratuitous. You don't need full frontal nudity in order to inform the audience that the characters in question are having or recently had sex. Two people in a bed, clearly wearing nothing under the blankets conveys the same message and has the added benefit of not alienating those who are squeemish about such things. I'm not the least bit offended by the nudity or the violence but I feel the message it sends is that the producers of the show aren't confident enough in their work to let it stand on its own merit so they throw in a bunch of gratuitous sex and violence. I'm not male but if I was I'd also be a little irked at the idea that the producers think I need said gratuitous sex and violence to make me want to watch their TV show. In the end it's a pretty minor complaint because I think the series is excellent overall. It's the first show in years I've cared to watch more than one episode of. I just think some of the sex is a bit gratuitous and extraneous and therefore unnecessary. The thing is, there's a TON of gratuitous sex scenes in the book. The writer also could have chosen diferent ways to express those scenes, or even not show them at all, since some of them were really explicit and not exactly important to the plot, but he kept it, that's the way he chose to tell the story. You can actually say they were faithfull to the books by showing all the nudity. It may be a problem that they have to cut some things to put these scenes in the TV show, but it is kinda weird being put off by the it's gratuity in the show but not in the books. Yes, they probally kept them also because it attract viewers, that's the point of the show, but if there is one series I think it's fair to do it it's this one.
I know there's no shortage of sex in the books, but reading it is different than seeing it. It's been a while since I read the books and I'm at work so I don't have the option right now to read any of the sex scenes but I don't have any memory of being put off by anything. When I think of the Theon scene or the slurping blowjob sounds, I'm reminded of Jean Auel's books the Earth's Children series (Clan of the Cave Bear etc.). The sex scenes in those books were explicit to the point of counting how many thrusts there were before the couple climaxed. Even as a hormonal 15 yr old reading those books mainly FOR the sex scenes, I found it sort of out of place and just...inelegant. There are much more erotic and artistic ways to depict sex than to be so matter of fact about it.
On the other hand, there are scenes that are toned down. I reread the first couple chapters of the first book recently and in the scene where Ned and Cat receive the message that Cat's sister suspects that John Aron was murdered, both Ned and Cat are naked. I think the scene even begins with Ned rolling off her. Ned goes to stand at the window and only puts a robe on when he answers the knock at the door. Later Cat gets right up out of bed and strolls naked across the room to put the letter in the fire, much to Ned's dismay. She reminds him the Maester delivered her children and says this is no time for false modesty. Who knows whether that decision is because of the age of the characters involved or because the actors didn't agree to be filmed naked but if they can look at that scene and think it can be just as effective without full frontal nudity then why not others? It wouldn't even be necessary for the actors to actually be naked in order to convey the impression that they were.
The part that is off-putting is again, not that it's offensive but more that it disrupts my immersion. It's like great acting, great writing, great story OHAI BOOBS AND SEX AND PENISES JUST BECAUSE more great acting, great writing, great story. *blink*
It's just...incongruous...I guess. It's not like a summer action flick that's kind of designed more to be eye candy and just fun rather than being qood quality story telling.
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England2674 Posts
On May 17 2011 01:51 Lonyo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 01:44 Flicky wrote:On May 17 2011 01:35 Stroggoz wrote:On May 16 2011 23:59 Flicky wrote:
I quite likethe show, but there's one thing that's starting to become a pet peeve for me.
Why the hell are the whores in this show all so knowledgable and why do they use them to explain so much? Are they that desperate to put some boobs and a bit of fucking in the show that they would have some illogical scene where some prostitute is explaining Theon's "hostage situation" or in the previous ep where the prostitute explains most of the viserys backstory.
They're whores for fuck sake. Why would they know anything. It just seems like bad writing to me. ummm, whores are actually an infinite well of knowledge lol. Because men talk to them about things they cant tell other people, and they talk to them in general. Do you think there's anyone else theon would talk to about his situation? Whores are the best way to explain these bits imo and it makes the show deeper. Yeah but in the books other people told them this. Serious people with other roles and the whole revelation came about as a stronger effect. Having some sweaty guy fuck a woman who tell thems this makes it sound like they're some idiot who has never figured this out. I guarantee you the way they make Theon aware of his situation in the books is a hell of a lot better than having a whore suggest it. How much screentime would it take in comparison?
How much time would it take to have Dany and others talk about the Viserys/Targaeryan situation from Ep 4? Hopefully less time than that random and excessively long scene.
As for Theon and the whore:
+ Show Spoiler [Book 2] +You're going to have to have him meet the king of the iron isles eventually. It would take maybe 10 seconds to have the revelation there and it would have a much stronger effect to have it come from the father like in the book than from random whore he's fucking.
I don't mind that they're making changes, but some of them just feel lazy and in most cases they're just un-necessary.
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On May 17 2011 02:13 kemoryan wrote:
It's a shame that there are almost more people here talking about the books or saying how different/alike the books are from the tv show than actually commenting on the episodes. There should be a separate thread for the books only imo.
Personally, I loved the last episode! My favourite so far, Ned is so honorable after choosing not to follow the King's orders!
there is
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=47071
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Awesome episode minus the awkward Loras/Renly scene.
I have no idea why they made such a drastic change to Renly's character. Yes we get that he's gay, but it would have been far better to make subtle hints to it instead of having that ridiculous scene.
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On May 17 2011 02:35 nonsequitur wrote:
Awesome episode minus the awkward Loras/Renly scene.
I have no idea why they made such a drastic change to Renly's character. Yes we get that he's gay, but it would have been far better to make subtle hints to it instead of having that ridiculous scene.
It's important because it set's Renly up for something he does later on.
Spoilers regarding above comment
+ Show Spoiler +Renly is the first to try and obtain the crown after Robert dies, and he has the Tyrells behind him (Loras's family)
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2011 02:38 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 02:35 nonsequitur wrote:
Awesome episode minus the awkward Loras/Renly scene.
I have no idea why they made such a drastic change to Renly's character. Yes we get that he's gay, but it would have been far better to make subtle hints to it instead of having that ridiculous scene. It's important because it set's Renly up for something he does later on. Book 2 spoilers regarding above comment + Show Spoiler +Renly is the first to try and obtain the crown after Robert dies, and he has the Tyrells behind him (Loras's family)
that whole thing really should be in spoilers you know
a LOT of people need to read the top warning again because they apparently ignore it
"REMEMBER even mentioning a character in a later book is a spoiler as it implies they survived till that point."
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On May 17 2011 02:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2011 02:38 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 02:35 nonsequitur wrote:
Awesome episode minus the awkward Loras/Renly scene.
I have no idea why they made such a drastic change to Renly's character. Yes we get that he's gay, but it would have been far better to make subtle hints to it instead of having that ridiculous scene. It's important because it set's Renly up for something he does later on. Book 2 spoilers regarding above comment + Show Spoiler +Renly is the first to try and obtain the crown after Robert dies, and he has the Tyrells behind him (Loras's family) that whole thing really should be in spoilers you know a LOT of people need to read the top warning again because they apparently ignore it "REMEMBER even mentioning a character in a later book is a spoiler as it implies they survived till that point."
Err, I said later on? For all they know I could mean the next episode or book 4. Renly didn't die in this episode, so he's obviously going to be alive in the next one.....
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nm, post below implies there's already such a thread, so maybe the book people can use the boko thread to discuss book related things they don't like about the series and leave the rest of us spoiler free.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2011 02:44 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 02:38 GGTeMpLaR wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2011 02:38 1Eris1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 02:35 nonsequitur wrote:
Awesome episode minus the awkward Loras/Renly scene.
I have no idea why they made such a drastic change to Renly's character. Yes we get that he's gay, but it would have been far better to make subtle hints to it instead of having that ridiculous scene. It's important because it set's Renly up for something he does later on. Book 2 spoilers regarding above comment + Show Spoiler +Renly is the first to try and obtain the crown after Robert dies, and he has the Tyrells behind him (Loras's family) that whole thing really should be in spoilers you know a LOT of people need to read the top warning again because they apparently ignore it "REMEMBER even mentioning a character in a later book is a spoiler as it implies they survived till that point." Err, I said later on? For all they know I could mean the next episode or book 4. Renly didn't die in this episode, so he's obviously going to be alive in the next one.....
you literally say "book 2 spoilers regarding above comment"
what other conclusion can we draw besides him living to book 2 at least
you know there's a thread about the books if you aren't going to put things like that in spoilers
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