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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
On May 17 2011 05:21 Maginor wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 05:11 CaptainFwiffo wrote:My biggest problem with the Renly/Loras scene was that it inverted Renly's personality compared to the book. Both are pretty clearly gay in the books, I guess I don't really mind that they made them lovers which was AT MOST hinted at in the books (I'm of the opinion that it wasn't in the books, period). I don't mind the gay sex. But in the books, Renly is flamboyant, charismatic and supremely self-confident. People follow him because of his personal magnetism. I realize that someone can be that way outwardly, but insecure privately, but that's not the character portrayed in the books. I don't know why they felt the need to turn him into a whiner. + Show Spoiler [All the books] +Robert is the pig, Stannis is the hard-ass and Renly is the pretty-boy. It's strongly implied in the book that Renly is gay based on his mannerisms and Margery Tyrell's alleged virginity after their brief marriage (although that is also a necessary excuse to have her remarry, and she's probably not a virgin after all). It's also implied that Loras is gay, given that he would otherwise be heir to a pretty major house but volunteers to a member of the Kingsguard (they do not marry). Also, his conspicuous disinterest in the many ladies that swoon after him.
The closest the books get to implying a relationship between Renly and Loras is when Loras is part of Renly's "rainbow" guard. Loras makes moon-eyes at Renly, but it's not clear that Renly treats him any different than any other admirer. I don't even know if they have any significant scenes together in the first book. In a series that has otherwise been surprisingly faithful, it's a real WTF moment. Generally though, the parts I have a problem with are when they are completely explicit about something that was just hinted at in the books, or even spoils things. Like, the just come out and say that Jorah Mormont is the one spying on Dany. In the book you had to either be very clever to pick it up, or were completely surprised and heartbroken when it came out. I was like "Hey Lord Varys, you forgot your spoiler tags, dillweed!" It's a mistake a lot of TV series make; treating their viewers like idiots. + Show Spoiler [allbooks] +Jaimie makes some remarks indicating strongly that there was a relationship between them. He says something like "he would stab Loras in places Renly never did". Also, Martin has stated it outright in interviews that these two were a couple. There are other small hints as well. At one of the parties before Renly dies, he gives Loras a lot of attention, while he only gives his new wife Margaery enough attention to be courteous. Couple it with Loras' extreme reaction of grief when Renly dies.
+ Show Spoiler +Now, now.They were just praying together. All night, alone.
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On May 17 2011 05:11 CaptainFwiffo wrote:My biggest problem with the Renly/Loras scene was that it inverted Renly's personality compared to the book. Both are pretty clearly gay in the books, I guess I don't really mind that they made them lovers which was AT MOST hinted at in the books (I'm of the opinion that it wasn't in the books, period). I don't mind the gay sex. But in the books, Renly is flamboyant, charismatic and supremely self-confident. People follow him because of his personal magnetism. I realize that someone can be that way outwardly, but insecure privately, but that's not the character portrayed in the books. I don't know why they felt the need to turn him into a whiner. + Show Spoiler [All the books] +Robert is the pig, Stannis is the hard-ass and Renly is the pretty-boy. It's strongly implied in the book that Renly is gay based on his mannerisms and Margery Tyrell's alleged virginity after their brief marriage (although that is also a necessary excuse to have her remarry, and she's probably not a virgin after all). It's also implied that Loras is gay, given that he would otherwise be heir to a pretty major house but volunteers to a member of the Kingsguard (they do not marry). Also, his conspicuous disinterest in the many ladies that swoon after him.
The closest the books get to implying a relationship between Renly and Loras is when Loras is part of Renly's "rainbow" guard. Loras makes moon-eyes at Renly, but it's not clear that Renly treats him any different than any other admirer. I don't even know if they have any significant scenes together in the first book. .
+ Show Spoiler [ all books] +There is more evidence than that about Renly and Loras and their relationship together. Especially when Jaime says "Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I’ll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found.” There is a collection of all the hints here: http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/lorasrenly.html and Martin has confirmed their relationship in interviews.
On May 17 2011 05:11 CaptainFwiffo wrote:
In a series that has otherwise been surprisingly faithful, it's a real WTF moment.
Generally though, the parts I have a problem with are when they are completely explicit about something that was just hinted at in the books, or even spoils things. Like, the just come out and say that Jorah Mormont is the one spying on Dany. In the book you had to either be very clever to pick it up, or were completely surprised and heartbroken when it came out. I was like "Hey Lord Varys, you forgot your spoiler tags, dillweed!"
It's a mistake a lot of TV series make; treating their viewers like idiots.
Actually Robert named Ser Jorah as a spy of Vary's almost word for word the same way in the book, but it was much earlier. + Show Spoiler [book 1] +In the book it happened during the events of episode 2, right after Robert is questioning who Jon Snow's mother is and he tells her Wylla and that he won't tell him any more. Then they discuss that Dany just got married to a Dothraki horselord, and when Ned asks how he knows Robert tells him that Ser Jorah Mormont is spying for Varys in hopes of a pardon, almost word for word the way it was discussed in the show.
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+ Show Spoiler +On May 17 2011 05:28 karazax wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 05:11 CaptainFwiffo wrote:My biggest problem with the Renly/Loras scene was that it inverted Renly's personality compared to the book. Both are pretty clearly gay in the books, I guess I don't really mind that they made them lovers which was AT MOST hinted at in the books (I'm of the opinion that it wasn't in the books, period). I don't mind the gay sex. But in the books, Renly is flamboyant, charismatic and supremely self-confident. People follow him because of his personal magnetism. I realize that someone can be that way outwardly, but insecure privately, but that's not the character portrayed in the books. I don't know why they felt the need to turn him into a whiner. + Show Spoiler [All the books] +Robert is the pig, Stannis is the hard-ass and Renly is the pretty-boy. It's strongly implied in the book that Renly is gay based on his mannerisms and Margery Tyrell's alleged virginity after their brief marriage (although that is also a necessary excuse to have her remarry, and she's probably not a virgin after all). It's also implied that Loras is gay, given that he would otherwise be heir to a pretty major house but volunteers to a member of the Kingsguard (they do not marry). Also, his conspicuous disinterest in the many ladies that swoon after him.
The closest the books get to implying a relationship between Renly and Loras is when Loras is part of Renly's "rainbow" guard. Loras makes moon-eyes at Renly, but it's not clear that Renly treats him any different than any other admirer. I don't even know if they have any significant scenes together in the first book. . There is more evidence than that about Renly and Loras and their relationship together + Show Spoiler [ book 4] +Especially when Jaime says "Now sheathe your bloody sword, or I’ll take it from you and shove it up some place even Renly never found.” There is a collection of all the hints here: http://www.angelfire.com/ma4/mlarchives/faq/lorasrenly.html and Martin has confirmed their relationship in interviews. Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 05:11 CaptainFwiffo wrote:
In a series that has otherwise been surprisingly faithful, it's a real WTF moment.
Generally though, the parts I have a problem with are when they are completely explicit about something that was just hinted at in the books, or even spoils things. Like, the just come out and say that Jorah Mormont is the one spying on Dany. In the book you had to either be very clever to pick it up, or were completely surprised and heartbroken when it came out. I was like "Hey Lord Varys, you forgot your spoiler tags, dillweed!"
It's a mistake a lot of TV series make; treating their viewers like idiots. Actually Robert named Ser Jorah as a spy of Vary's almost word for word the same way in the book, but it was much earlier. + Show Spoiler [book 1] +In the book it happened during the events of episode 2, right after Robert is questioning who Jon Snow's mother is and he tells her Wylla and that he won't tell him any more. Then they discuss that Dany just got married to a Dothraki horselord, and when Ned asks how he knows Robert tells him that Ser Jorah Mormont is spying for Varys in hopes of a pardon, almost word for word the way it was discussed in the show.
seriously dude put that whole post in a spoiler if youre going to mention characters that are still alive in book 4
and read the top warning while youre at it
people need to just put everything in the "book 4 spoiler" or whichever book it's from and not label it with a title in all their brilliance, it just keeps happening in the thread. might as well copy bioware and have a "spoilers GoT" and "no spoilers GoT" thread since people can't follow simple rules
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On May 17 2011 04:25 Nesto wrote:
Guess this episode had it's moments, but some scenes were just ridiculous.
I understand, that you can't put in the whole story, also you can't show what's going on in peoples heads and need to make some detours on the story...
But seriously why do they have to cut things like the travel to the Eyrie, Blackfish, most of the tournament etc. just to put in a scene about Greyjoy doing a whore and the breast-shaving / bj part with Renly and Loras?
Also, the Lysa part was just over the top. Yeah she has more or less gone mad, yeah there is some stuff about breast-feeding her 6 year old child in the book and she is scared shitless that anything could happen to her son. But putting that all in one scene - her first appeareance - showing her giving an audience while having a tit hanging out and breast feeding her son, without any background on the character just looks ridiculous.
I really have high hopes for this show, but I'd rather have them cut back a bit on putting in random sex scenes and provide a bit more character backgrounds.
They had some preamble to it.
The imp asks when the last time she saw her sister was, and implies she's crazy, and says it's basically a death sentence to take him there or whatever.
The breast feeding scene just emphasises how crazy she is pretty swiftly and effectively. Maybe there's other backstory in the book besides what's shown in the series, but you are informed that she's recently lost it before you see the extent of how far gone she is.
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Aww man, I was so looking forward to meeting the Blackfish when they arrived at the Eyrie. My biggest complaint is still that everything happens so quickly: every scene counts to build the big picture and there is so little "breathing room". Hopefully the next season can be longer than 10 episodes.
Still, good episode, one of the best so far. The scene with Robert and Cersei was a really good addition. Mark Addy is brilliant as Robert, dare I say quite a lot better than the book version.
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+ Show Spoiler [Book 4] +LOL, Renly is not alive in Book 4! I don't think people are liable to get wrong spoilers about later books.
+ Show Spoiler [Book 1] +Are you sure about Varys saying it was Ser Jorah? I could have sworn he said that he had a spy, but didn't name him explicitly yet. I will have to look at the book again.
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On May 17 2011 05:36 CaptainFwiffo wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Book 1] +Are you sure about Varys saying it was Ser Jorah? I could have sworn he said that he had a spy, but didn't name him explicitly yet. I will have to look at the book again.
Actually nevermind, double-checked it and I was wrong. 
On May 17 2011 05:44 zemiron wrote:
I thought the Lysa scene was handled perfectly although I imagined her a little more plump.
She was described as fat in the books, but I guess it's kinda irrelevant for the character. At least she looked quite a bit like Catelyn.
Loved Tyrions face during that scene. Said more than a thousand words.
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On May 17 2011 05:36 CaptainFwiffo wrote:+ Show Spoiler [Book 4] +LOL, Renly is not alive in Book 4! I don't think people are liable to get wrong spoilers about later books. Are you sure about Varys saying it was Ser Jorah? I could have sworn he said that he had a spy, but didn't name him explicitly yet. I will have to look at the book again.
No, in the book it was Robert who said that about Jorah. But I am certain about that. Page 111 of the american paperback of A Game of Thrones. A few pages into Eddard's 2nd chapter.
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I thought the episode was pretty good. I missed not having the Blackfish in there, but I was prepared for it. + Show Spoiler +Martin stated on his blog several months ago that the Blackfish was going to be pushed back until the second season.
I thought the Lysa scene was handled perfectly although I imagined her a little more plump.
+ Show Spoiler +I thought the Renly was mostly good. I didn't understand the making Renly squeamish thing. I knew they were going to make the relationship between Loras and Renly more explicit. I also think it did a good job of explaining Renly's actions later on. Overall, I thought it was a good scene.
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On May 17 2011 04:46 nybbas wrote:
tell me ONE FILM/TV ADAPTATION OF A BOOK THAT HAS STAYED TRUE TO ITS SOURCE MATERIAL?
The Road? No Country for Old Men? Not exact, page for page retellings of the books, but they maintained the integrity of the source material to a really admirable degree.
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On May 17 2011 04:25 Nesto wrote:
Guess this episode had it's moments, but some scenes were just ridiculous.
I understand, that you can't put in the whole story, also you can't show what's going on in peoples heads and need to make some detours on the story...
But seriously why do they have to cut things like the travel to the Eyrie, Blackfish, most of the tournament etc. just to put in a scene about Greyjoy doing a whore and the breast-shaving / bj part with Renly and Loras?
Also, the Lysa part was just over the top. Yeah she has more or less gone mad, yeah there is some stuff about breast-feeding her 6 year old child in the book and she is scared shitless that anything could happen to her son. But putting that all in one scene - her first appeareance - showing her giving an audience while having a tit hanging out and breast feeding her son, without any background on the character just looks ridiculous.
I really have high hopes for this show, but I'd rather have them cut back a bit on putting in random sex scenes and provide a bit more character backgrounds.
Have to agree here, though I'm still enjoying the show very much. Showing everything wrong with Lysa all at once was riduculous, and I thought Martin spent some time with the travel up the eyrie. I found it to be important at least.
And wtf with the Greyjoy scene. Maybe I'm mistaken, I haven't read the books in a while, but Theon seemed like a pretty minor character, especially in the first book. If I were writing the series I would forget him all together, seeing as how short on time they are.
And why wasn't the encounter between Ned and Jaime in the rain, gosh dangit! Just me being nit-picky 
On May 17 2011 05:48 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 04:46 nybbas wrote:
tell me ONE FILM/TV ADAPTATION OF A BOOK THAT HAS STAYED TRUE TO ITS SOURCE MATERIAL? The Road? No Country for Old Men? Not exact, page for page retellings of the books, but they maintained the integrity of the source material to a really admirable degree.
Well so is this series. I do feel that there's too much HBO lewdness, but then again, the book does go into quite a bit of detail(with sex scenes and such.
Really fans shouldn't be complaining about the series "not being true to the books" so far. It's far better than pretty much all other book to film adaptations.
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I've been a critic of this show, but I thought I'd hold off judgement for a few episodes and I have. Unfortunately as much as I want to fall in love and be able to forget the problems I still can't. So far it's just been 5 unexciting development episodes, because I'm stupid I'll probably ride it out till the end just like I did for the last two seasons of BSG.
I really don't understand why the story takes place in a fantasy world. We're told that there were dragons that their are shadow cats and people who can change their faces, but we never actually get to see any of that. The one exception is the dire-wolves and honestly they might as well just be regular wolves it would change nothing. Maybe later it'll come into play, but for right now it's a cocktease.
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On May 17 2011 05:48 Quotidian wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 04:46 nybbas wrote:
tell me ONE FILM/TV ADAPTATION OF A BOOK THAT HAS STAYED TRUE TO ITS SOURCE MATERIAL? The Road? No Country for Old Men? Not exact, page for page retellings of the books, but they maintained the integrity of the source material to a really admirable degree.
NCfOM was pretty different, but The Road was very very close.
This is a misunderstanding, if anything I am holding the series on a very high pedestal because it HAS been so close to the books. So I will obviously be upset when a new scene is added that adds nothing and only serves to put off new viewers and the book fanatics.
The viserys/baelish scene was awesome and wasn't in the books. I thought it was a very clever way to show the ways they get information and how much they know. The Robert/Cersei scene I didn't like, but I can see how new viewers can appreciate it and it moves the story along.+ Show Spoiler + Theon's scene I have come to appreciate since it foreshadows his issues between his loving the Starks and his pride of being a Greyjoy. The constant reminder that he is not a true Stark while still being treated well is the main idea behind Theon's character. How he comes to terms with it later on will make more sense now.
The Renly/Loras scene was absolute garbage and unnecessary. It has nothing to do with them being gay, and more to do with making Renly a sissy instead of a strong, flamboyant gay man. The subtle hint between Baelish and Renly at the joust was cleverly done, and they could have hinted at that in following episodes. It would have allowed for better development instead of a sloppy "I like you shaven, don't cry at blood" scene.
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On May 17 2011 06:12 Fraidnot wrote:I really don't understand why the story takes place in a fantasy world. We're told that there were dragons that their are shadow cats and people who can change their faces, but we never actually get to see any of that. The one exception is the dire-wolves and honestly they might as well just be regular wolves it would change nothing. Maybe later it'll come into play, but for right now it's a cocktease.
The series never claimed to be high fantasy. What is your complaint here? That some fantasy elements have been hinted at and may or may not be realized?
What's wrong if it's a cocktease? The wonder and attraction of fantasy is lost if you're hit with it all at once and right away.
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On May 17 2011 06:05 happyness wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 05:48 Quotidian wrote:On May 17 2011 04:46 nybbas wrote:
tell me ONE FILM/TV ADAPTATION OF A BOOK THAT HAS STAYED TRUE TO ITS SOURCE MATERIAL? The Road? No Country for Old Men? Not exact, page for page retellings of the books, but they maintained the integrity of the source material to a really admirable degree. Well so is this series. I do feel that there's too much HBO lewdness, but then again, the book does go into quite a bit of detail(with sex scenes and such. Really fans shouldn't be complaining about the series "not being true to the books" so far. It's far better than pretty much all other book to film adaptations.
For a series of novels that is all about characters and the relationships between them, you can't be true to the integrity of the source material while at the same time drastically changing the relationship between characters. For instance, Cersei and Robert having their old married couple scene is completely at odds with their relationship in the book. Even worse is Cersei is still mourning the loss of a baby that never even existed in the books. I also think it was a miss-step of the producers to make something that was only hinted at, in the relationship between Renly and Loras, explicit in the tv series.
+ Show Spoiler [foreshadowing of future events] +It seems they just don't "trust" the books and are trying to correct things - like adding more backstory to Theon and such, when he's actually just a minor character for a very long time. The lack of these things isn't actually a flaw in the books. I thought Theon's betrayal was so impactful precisely because he was a minor character with no clear motivations and because I never percieved him as a threat. Here, they're going a bit far with the foreshadowing. There seems to be a lot of these things going on with the show, like with Renly attempt at the throne, etc.
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Another thing with the Cersei and Robert scene, it seems like they're trying too hard to make it seem like Cersei has some "good" in her, when from the GoT you don't get any of that. And also it bothers me that the actress, while good, just doesn't seem sinister at all.
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On May 17 2011 06:21 -Frog- wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 06:12 Fraidnot wrote:I really don't understand why the story takes place in a fantasy world. We're told that there were dragons that their are shadow cats and people who can change their faces, but we never actually get to see any of that. The one exception is the dire-wolves and honestly they might as well just be regular wolves it would change nothing. Maybe later it'll come into play, but for right now it's a cocktease.
The series never claimed to be high fantasy. What is your complaint here? That some fantasy elements have been hinted at and may or may not be realized? What's wrong if it's a cocktease? The wonder and attraction of fantasy is lost if you're hit with it all at once and right away.
All at once? Just some would be better then none. I'm not asking for elves and shit, but something more then the occasional blurb that serves only as a: "oh! we've been talking about something not directly relevant to the plot for fifteen minutes, better mention dragons before the audience forgets that this is a fantasy world "
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This thread is turning away people who havent read the series, everyone is too scared to get spoiled from the book, I even started reading the books just to be able to read this thread and just got spoiled, honestly, there should be a separate topic for the book discussion
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One must understand that what 'seems to happen' when you read a book, does not translate well into a tv show. Characters dont get equal coverage as their book counter parts. For example, it is difficult to get (emotionally) attached to a character that barely had any screen time at all. Interactions have to be changed a little bit, to convey a message. I for one really liked how they portrayed Robert with the Cersei scene and Mark Addy did an amazing job acting it out.
@Quotidian
+ Show Spoiler + I really liked the Theon-pov, BECAUSE he was so incredible minor the whole time. What you perceive as impactful may come across as irrelevant and not-likeable for another. One can even argue it is a great choice for the directors to give Theon more screentime before his inevitable backstab. To each his own and ultimately the choice is at the directors hands. If they want to give Theon a bit more background before his rebellion, it's definitely up to them.
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On May 17 2011 06:47 Fraidnot wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 06:21 -Frog- wrote:On May 17 2011 06:12 Fraidnot wrote:I really don't understand why the story takes place in a fantasy world. We're told that there were dragons that their are shadow cats and people who can change their faces, but we never actually get to see any of that. The one exception is the dire-wolves and honestly they might as well just be regular wolves it would change nothing. Maybe later it'll come into play, but for right now it's a cocktease.
The series never claimed to be high fantasy. What is your complaint here? That some fantasy elements have been hinted at and may or may not be realized? What's wrong if it's a cocktease? The wonder and attraction of fantasy is lost if you're hit with it all at once and right away. All at once? Just some would be better then none. I'm not asking for elves and shit, but something more then the occasional blurb that serves only as a: "oh! we've been talking about something not directly relevant to the plot for fifteen minutes, better mention dragons before the audience forgets that this is a fantasy world "
All I can say is it comes eventually and is quite prononuced when it does arrive. It'll probably turn more viewers away from the show than it will make happy. The casual viewer isn't as into fantasy as they are a political drama.
And I agree this thread is way too spoilery. People are not reading the top portion of this thread. Anyone who clicks a spoiler thinking they're talking about the first book and something they'll see in an episode or two, only to read something significant in Book 4, is getting the experience ruined for them.
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