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All book discussion in this thread is now allowed. |
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
On June 24 2015 19:53 freelander wrote:
Brienne has never been very bright.
Actually how legit of a king Robert was? He took the throne in a rebellion. How does that make him a legit king?
Well there is the thing called right of conquest (see for example the norman conquest of England in 1066) and he also had the support of the north, the vale, the riverlands, the stormlands and the Westerlands after Tywin jumped off the Targaryen ship. With 5 of the 8 great houses in Westeros backing him and the Targaryens conveniently almost wiped out or in exile after the sack of king's landing left Robert in control.
So while his legitimacy could be questioned (although legally only by the descendants of Aerys, so Viserys and Daenerys) he was the legitimate king.
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On June 24 2015 23:45 ShiaoPi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 19:53 freelander wrote:
Brienne has never been very bright.
Actually how legit of a king Robert was? He took the throne in a rebellion. How does that make him a legit king? Well there is the thing called right of conquest (see for example the norman conquest of England in 1066) and he also had the support of the north, the vale, the riverlands, the stormlands and the Westerlands after Tywin jumped off the Targaryen ship. With 5 of the 8 great houses in Westeros backing him and the Targaryens conveniently almost wiped out or in exile after the sack of king's landing left Robert in control. So while his legitimacy could be questioned (although legally only by the descendants of Aerys, so Viserys and Daenerys) he was the legitimate king.
That still doesn't respond to the more philosophical question of what makes a king a legitimate king in the first place. This idea is explored throughout the ASOIAF universe, including some of GRRM's short stories.
If direct desendance from Aegon the Conqueror makes someone a legitimate king, then deposing Aerys would only make Robert Baratheon the legitimate king if all of Aerys's direct descendants were also dead. While the Lannisters did their utmost best, Viserys and Daenerys escaped, and obviously murdering Elia's babies was a heinous crime in and of itself.
Even then, there's probably still some Blackfyres around in Essos with a more legitimate claim than Robert Baratheon. That leaves the claim through right of conquest, which is what Aegon the Conqueror used in the first place, and what Robert Baratheon relies on. He conquered the throne, therefore he is the rightful king.
But then why ever bother with direct descendance for the heir? If right of conquest can be invoked at the drop of a hat, then we end up with the War of the Five Kings, and the subsequent mess in Westeros.
So what makes a king's rule rightful?
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Because unless there are those who want to earn the throne by right of conquest you would obviously use the direct descendants. If there's nobody actively drumming up support for their cause to take over the throne, why wouldn't using direct descendants work?
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TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
Of course it does not cover the philosophical aspect of the entire question, which is invoked by GRRM. I just provided the "legalistic" background.
The entire War of the Five kings breaks out because Robert's own legitimacy was questionable as is/was Joffrey's. If Robert would have survived longer and actually uncovered Cersei and Jaime's relationship I am inclined to believe a rather smooth transition to Stannis would have been possible.
The unclear rules of succession and kingship in Westeros make the discussion harder (if not impossible) anyway. Then again if you are invoking right of conquest noone actually has achieved it right now. The riverlands are still in turmoil, the north begrudginly accepted Bolton overlordship and the Iron Isles are pretty much independent already (if the plot ever returns there heh). While the Lannister-Tyrell-Bolton alliance seems to look in control, they did not in fact "conquer" the areas to invoke it. They are still using descendance as prime legitimacy, which makes the entire trial of cersei potentially destroying for them.
The current situation in Westeros is probably best described as an uneasy peace, bursting at the seams.
To be honest the question whether or not a rule is rightful cannot really be answered I would say. Just as it is said: "Power resides, where people believe it to be". None of the potential claimants to the throne as of now would make a good King/Queen I believe.
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On June 24 2015 23:40 aseq wrote:
Dany later on and fight the Whites together? He can ride Rhaegal or Viserion (and who will be the 3rd rider?).
Obviously Zombie Mountain, who ironically in becoming a monster has found his humanity. It will be a heartbreaking tale of redemption.
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I have a question for TV-only public: did you guys know from the show that it's Zombie Mountain? Did you realize that Qyburn was experimenting on Gregor Clegane before the reveal in the final episode?
I had the feeling that it was really badly exposed, but having read the books it's hard for me to judge whether the hints in the show were sufficient to figure it out (without going to the internet and finding bookreaders explaining what's happening).
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On June 25 2015 03:55 Acrofales wrote:
I have a question for TV-only public: did you guys know from the show that it's Zombie Mountain? Did you realize that Qyburn was experimenting on Gregor Clegane before the reveal in the final episode?
I had the feeling that it was really badly exposed, but having read the books it's hard for me to judge whether the hints in the show were sufficient to figure it out (without going to the internet and finding bookreaders explaining what's happening).
iirc A bookreader somewhat spoiled it here but I think plenty of people pieced it together themselves. Certainly by episode 9.
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On June 25 2015 03:55 Acrofales wrote:
I have a question for TV-only public: did you guys know from the show that it's Zombie Mountain? Did you realize that Qyburn was experimenting on Gregor Clegane before the reveal in the final episode?
I had the feeling that it was really badly exposed, but having read the books it's hard for me to judge whether the hints in the show were sufficient to figure it out (without going to the internet and finding bookreaders explaining what's happening).
Yes, it was pretty obvious to me. Qyburn pumped fluids into him, said the process was going to change him somewhat but not make him weaker, and Pycelle warned of Qyburn's dubious methods which had gotten him expelled from the academy. I fully expected a Frankenstein Mountain.
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United States23455 Posts
On June 25 2015 03:55 Acrofales wrote:
I have a question for TV-only public: did you guys know from the show that it's Zombie Mountain? Did you realize that Qyburn was experimenting on Gregor Clegane before the reveal in the final episode?
I had the feeling that it was really badly exposed, but having read the books it's hard for me to judge whether the hints in the show were sufficient to figure it out (without going to the internet and finding bookreaders explaining what's happening).
I thought it was kind of obvious? Didn't he basically outright say it to Cersei in season 4?
I could be wrong but I thought I remembered that
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It was clear immediately he was brought back by Qyburn, but it wasn't (isn't) clear to me how well he is. Could he speak if he wanted to? Is he sane and capable of normal thought?
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I thought qyburn said he couldnt speak?
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On June 25 2015 06:16 solidbebe wrote:
I thought qyburn said he couldnt speak?
Qyburn says he took a vow of silence.
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On June 25 2015 07:12 Titusmaster6 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 06:16 solidbebe wrote:
I thought qyburn said he couldnt speak? Qyburn says he took a vow of silence.
I thought that was a cheeky way of saying he could no longer speak 
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On June 24 2015 23:45 ShiaoPi wrote:
Well there is the thing called right of conquest (see for example the norman conquest of England in 1066)
Yeah but the right of conquest was always the shakiest claim, and was almost never invoked except in conjunction with other claims. William claimed the right to the English throne in other ways, and only added conquest after successfully pressing his cliam. In practice, it's a way of saying; "claims disagreed, we fought, and I won, so let's all settle down."
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On June 25 2015 00:04 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2015 23:45 ShiaoPi wrote:On June 24 2015 19:53 freelander wrote:
Brienne has never been very bright.
Actually how legit of a king Robert was? He took the throne in a rebellion. How does that make him a legit king? Well there is the thing called right of conquest (see for example the norman conquest of England in 1066) and he also had the support of the north, the vale, the riverlands, the stormlands and the Westerlands after Tywin jumped off the Targaryen ship. With 5 of the 8 great houses in Westeros backing him and the Targaryens conveniently almost wiped out or in exile after the sack of king's landing left Robert in control. So while his legitimacy could be questioned (although legally only by the descendants of Aerys, so Viserys and Daenerys) he was the legitimate king. That still doesn't respond to the more philosophical question of what makes a king a legitimate king in the first place. This idea is explored throughout the ASOIAF universe, including some of GRRM's short stories. If direct desendance from Aegon the Conqueror makes someone a legitimate king, then deposing Aerys would only make Robert Baratheon the legitimate king if all of Aerys's direct descendants were also dead. While the Lannisters did their utmost best, Viserys and Daenerys escaped, and obviously murdering Elia's babies was a heinous crime in and of itself. Even then, there's probably still some Blackfyres around in Essos with a more legitimate claim than Robert Baratheon. That leaves the claim through right of conquest, which is what Aegon the Conqueror used in the first place, and what Robert Baratheon relies on. He conquered the throne, therefore he is the rightful king. But then why ever bother with direct descendance for the heir? If right of conquest can be invoked at the drop of a hat, then we end up with the War of the Five Kings, and the subsequent mess in Westeros. So what makes a king's rule rightful?
i dont think "rightful" is the correct category to think in. a king is a king because no one questions his legitimacy or because he has the power to oppress anyone who does. its best put with two of the most famous quotes of the show: "power is power" and "Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king".
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On June 25 2015 12:53 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On June 25 2015 00:04 Acrofales wrote:On June 24 2015 23:45 ShiaoPi wrote:On June 24 2015 19:53 freelander wrote:
Brienne has never been very bright.
Actually how legit of a king Robert was? He took the throne in a rebellion. How does that make him a legit king? Well there is the thing called right of conquest (see for example the norman conquest of England in 1066) and he also had the support of the north, the vale, the riverlands, the stormlands and the Westerlands after Tywin jumped off the Targaryen ship. With 5 of the 8 great houses in Westeros backing him and the Targaryens conveniently almost wiped out or in exile after the sack of king's landing left Robert in control. So while his legitimacy could be questioned (although legally only by the descendants of Aerys, so Viserys and Daenerys) he was the legitimate king. That still doesn't respond to the more philosophical question of what makes a king a legitimate king in the first place. This idea is explored throughout the ASOIAF universe, including some of GRRM's short stories. If direct desendance from Aegon the Conqueror makes someone a legitimate king, then deposing Aerys would only make Robert Baratheon the legitimate king if all of Aerys's direct descendants were also dead. While the Lannisters did their utmost best, Viserys and Daenerys escaped, and obviously murdering Elia's babies was a heinous crime in and of itself. Even then, there's probably still some Blackfyres around in Essos with a more legitimate claim than Robert Baratheon. That leaves the claim through right of conquest, which is what Aegon the Conqueror used in the first place, and what Robert Baratheon relies on. He conquered the throne, therefore he is the rightful king. But then why ever bother with direct descendance for the heir? If right of conquest can be invoked at the drop of a hat, then we end up with the War of the Five Kings, and the subsequent mess in Westeros. So what makes a king's rule rightful? i dont think "rightful" is the correct category to think in. a king is a king because no one questions his legitimacy or because he has the power to oppress anyone who does. its best put with two of the most famous quotes of the show: "power is power" and "Any man who must say 'I am the king' is no true king".
"The identity of Men, you discovered, was determined by the beliefs, the assumptions, of others. This is what makes them emperors or slaves … Not their gods. Not their blood."
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Is anyone else disappointed by Drogon performance (who's supposedly the strongest dragon) ? He could barely take on a dozen of unorganized civilians(?) with spears, how can Daeneris expect conquering Westeros vs fully equiped and organized armies ?
Or maybe the dragon isn't fully grown up ?
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On June 25 2015 18:04 Lylat wrote:
Is anyone else disappointed by Drogon performance (who's supposedly the strongest dragon) ? He could barely take on a dozen of unorganized civilians(?) with spears, how can Daeneris expect conquering Westeros vs fully equiped and organized armies ?
Or maybe the dragon isn't fully grown up ?
i read somewhere in this thread that drogo was going to double in size next season from D and D so im guessing its like a teenager and hes like tripled in size since danny got the unsullied
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On June 25 2015 18:04 Lylat wrote:
Is anyone else disappointed by Drogon performance (who's supposedly the strongest dragon) ? He could barely take on a dozen of unorganized civilians(?) with spears, how can Daeneris expect conquering Westeros vs fully equiped and organized armies ?
Or maybe the dragon isn't fully grown up ?
Drogon is still very young.
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EPT
