On January 03 2009 12:41 travis wrote: well I agree and I really have no clue how long has supposed to pass in the naruto world, but I really don't care either hehe. because yes I think there is many holes in naruto if you want to get that in depth, there probably is in almost all manga.
but anyways, back on topic, doesn't naruto use shadow clones to train? i thought he was using 4 shadow clones to train sage mode, so that alone would be 4x faster or w/e
I'm not sure, but I seem to recall there being one chapter where the old frog told him that it was too dangerous to train with shadow clones because if any one of the bunshin turns completely into a frog, then naruto himself turns into a frog. Did naruto ignore him and train with clones anyway?
That was initially, I believe. I was going to bring this point up too, and how if he trained with clones that the effect shouldn't be linear but exponential in terms of experience gained because of the difficulty of it.
EDIT: Yes, Elfen Lied rules. My number 2 anime for sure.
On January 03 2009 11:02 travis wrote: naruto has been training sage mode for like what, 20? 25 episodes of the manga? isn't that a long time?
i mean what is it you want, what can they possibly do in a damn manga to show the kind of development that you are asking for? they do this kind of stuff in all mangas, not just naruto. it's because you can't not do it.
As demoninja mentioned, Naruto's sage training has spanned a few days at most. That's not the biggest thing that bothers me either, but it's Naruto's uninspired development compared to say, Sasuke's. Sasuke's use of jutsus, his strategies, a lot of things have drastically changed, and he's had to go through Hell to get to his level. Whereas Naruto always improves at a breakneck pace out of nowhere. And what does this vast improvement result in? Faster, Stronger Naruto, bigger Rasengan. I think the writing of the manga has just gone down for a while now. But It's like crack for me. I can't stop the intake, it's an addiction, but I vomit violently afterwards.
But isn't that a very Naruto thing? You get all these individuals who go through there way of doing things and then you have Naruto's. Good ol' fashioned work your ass off doing the same things you did before but with shadow clones...You might as well go, Oh Sasuke, all the angst, the only thing that drives him, angst angst angst. How about Shikamaru, okay he's a genius, still lazy as hell, but still saves the day. Are you sure it's not just because you can't relate or are not as interested in Naruto or are there actual flaws in how is character has developed? Sasuke has always thought that Naruto had it better than he did, so does your discriminant banter not reflect the same way Sasuke feels?
On January 03 2009 11:02 travis wrote: naruto has been training sage mode for like what, 20? 25 episodes of the manga? isn't that a long time?
i mean what is it you want, what can they possibly do in a damn manga to show the kind of development that you are asking for? they do this kind of stuff in all mangas, not just naruto. it's because you can't not do it.
As demoninja mentioned, Naruto's sage training has spanned a few days at most. That's not the biggest thing that bothers me either, but it's Naruto's uninspired development compared to say, Sasuke's. Sasuke's use of jutsus, his strategies, a lot of things have drastically changed, and he's had to go through Hell to get to his level. Whereas Naruto always improves at a breakneck pace out of nowhere. And what does this vast improvement result in? Faster, Stronger Naruto, bigger Rasengan. I think the writing of the manga has just gone down for a while now. But It's like crack for me. I can't stop the intake, it's an addiction, but I vomit violently afterwards.
But isn't that a very Naruto thing? You get all these individuals who go through there way of doing things and then you have Naruto's. Good ol' fashioned work your ass off doing the same things you did before but with shadow clones...You might as well go, Oh Sasuke, all the angst, the only thing that drives him, angst angst angst. How about Shikamaru, okay he's a genius, still lazy as hell, but still saves the day. Are you sure it's not just because you can't relate or are not as interested in Naruto or are there actual flaws in how is character has developed? Sasuke has always thought that Naruto had it better than he did, so does your discriminant banter not reflect the same way Sasuke feels?
Nope . I find Sasuke's angst annoying, but I still prefer his development over Naruto's. I mean, I'm not even talking about character development right now but his development as a ninja. No one works harder than Rock Lee but Naruto makes huge leaps over him effortlessly. I'd love it if Naruto's development at least mirrored Rock Lee's. I think Sasuke is Kishimoto's favourite character and it's painfully obvious. His developement is the most complex and the best imo and it clearly shows the difficult path he had to take in order to attain his current power. I mean, he even had to make a deal with the devil. It would be nice if Naruto had developed into a more strategic thinker, or if he had new Jutsu's.
I would've preffered that he outthought his opponents, or developed his own jutsus rather than follow the tired formula of: strong boss -> Super Sayan 1. stronger boss 2 -> Super Sayan 2. Even stronger boss 3 -> Super Sayan 3. Shikamaru is an interesting character, but what I find most interesting about him is what he offers as an actual shinobi. He may be a strategic genius but even THAT hit a wall relatively easily in his fight against one of the sound 4 (Hell in half his fights lol). Naruto has no ceiling. If the boss is stronger, it doesn't matter because Naruto becomes stronger over night, magically, without an explanation.
Btw, I think Sasuke is driven by revenge and anger, not angst. I mean even now, he's driven by revenge... against konoha instead of his brother.
What I would've preferred would be something more satisfying in Naruto's development as a ninja. Hark back to the early days where Sasuke was the "genius" and Naruto was trying his best to catch up. His 9-tails was a liability rather than an unlimited source of power he could tap into. I would've loved to see Naruto change gradually, slowly and realistically, learning how to be a brilliant tactician from Kakashi, and eventually learning "sage" mode, summoning and scroll jutsus from Pervert Sannin. In fact, since Naruto has such a "dynmanic" personality it would've been GREAT to see him go around Konoha learning different things from the very best ninjas, taking something from each of them, or being driven to seek out S-class ninjas from other villages.
On January 03 2009 11:02 travis wrote: naruto has been training sage mode for like what, 20? 25 episodes of the manga? isn't that a long time?
i mean what is it you want, what can they possibly do in a damn manga to show the kind of development that you are asking for? they do this kind of stuff in all mangas, not just naruto. it's because you can't not do it.
As demoninja mentioned, Naruto's sage training has spanned a few days at most. That's not the biggest thing that bothers me either, but it's Naruto's uninspired development compared to say, Sasuke's. Sasuke's use of jutsus, his strategies, a lot of things have drastically changed, and he's had to go through Hell to get to his level. Whereas Naruto always improves at a breakneck pace out of nowhere. And what does this vast improvement result in? Faster, Stronger Naruto, bigger Rasengan. I think the writing of the manga has just gone down for a while now. But It's like crack for me. I can't stop the intake, it's an addiction, but I vomit violently afterwards.
I understand what you are saying, and I could find it easy to agree,
however, I just decided that the techniques naruto uses right now must be so impressive and difficult that it is quite a reward in itself. imean, a bunch of shadow clones all actually doing useful stuff, that is pretty badass imo because there is no easy way to counter it other than like genjetsu
and, i figure naruto trains a ton and we just don't get to see it.
i mean he has a crazy spirit fox in him that he has to fight with to master all the time. so just like sleeping is training for naruto, amirite? no? ok whatever
On January 03 2009 12:41 travis wrote: well I agree and I really have no clue how long has supposed to pass in the naruto world, but I really don't care either hehe. because yes I think there is many holes in naruto if you want to get that in depth, there probably is in almost all manga.
but anyways, back on topic, doesn't naruto use shadow clones to train? i thought he was using 4 shadow clones to train sage mode, so that alone would be 4x faster or w/e
I'm not sure, but I seem to recall there being one chapter where the old frog told him that it was too dangerous to train with shadow clones because if any one of the bunshin turns completely into a frog, then naruto himself turns into a frog. Did naruto ignore him and train with clones anyway?
they used 4 clones because thats the max the frogs could keep track of, i believe
On January 03 2009 11:02 travis wrote: naruto has been training sage mode for like what, 20? 25 episodes of the manga? isn't that a long time?
i mean what is it you want, what can they possibly do in a damn manga to show the kind of development that you are asking for? they do this kind of stuff in all mangas, not just naruto. it's because you can't not do it.
As demoninja mentioned, Naruto's sage training has spanned a few days at most. That's not the biggest thing that bothers me either, but it's Naruto's uninspired development compared to say, Sasuke's. Sasuke's use of jutsus, his strategies, a lot of things have drastically changed, and he's had to go through Hell to get to his level. Whereas Naruto always improves at a breakneck pace out of nowhere. And what does this vast improvement result in? Faster, Stronger Naruto, bigger Rasengan. I think the writing of the manga has just gone down for a while now. But It's like crack for me. I can't stop the intake, it's an addiction, but I vomit violently afterwards.
I understand what you are saying, and I could find it easy to agree,
however, I just decided that the techniques naruto uses right now must be so impressive and difficult that it is quite a reward in itself. imean, a bunch of shadow clones all actually doing useful stuff, that is pretty badass imo because there is no easy way to counter it other than like genjetsu
and, i figure naruto trains a ton and we just don't get to see it.
I agree but I feel that I've been cheated out of seeing Naruto blossom into something more interesting and real. I mean, Naruto has the ability to learn things 1000x faster than anyone because he can use his shadow clones (1000 of them) to increase his learning exponentially. When Kishimoto introduced this concept I said, "WTF?". It felt like a copout, like a cheat.
On January 03 2009 13:52 travis wrote: I think what needs to happen and what is going to happen is that naruto is going to go train with the oxe guy or whatever that animal is
and learn how to control his kyuubi fully
because thats the only way i see him beating sasuke or madara
That would've been pretty cool. Especially if Kyubi was a dangerous liability this entire time and Naruto had to solely rely on his normal chakra, hard work and training under Kakashi/Jiryai/the frogs up to this point.
On January 03 2009 11:02 travis wrote: naruto has been training sage mode for like what, 20? 25 episodes of the manga? isn't that a long time?
i mean what is it you want, what can they possibly do in a damn manga to show the kind of development that you are asking for? they do this kind of stuff in all mangas, not just naruto. it's because you can't not do it.
As demoninja mentioned, Naruto's sage training has spanned a few days at most. That's not the biggest thing that bothers me either, but it's Naruto's uninspired development compared to say, Sasuke's. Sasuke's use of jutsus, his strategies, a lot of things have drastically changed, and he's had to go through Hell to get to his level. Whereas Naruto always improves at a breakneck pace out of nowhere. And what does this vast improvement result in? Faster, Stronger Naruto, bigger Rasengan. I think the writing of the manga has just gone down for a while now. But It's like crack for me. I can't stop the intake, it's an addiction, but I vomit violently afterwards.
But isn't that a very Naruto thing? You get all these individuals who go through there way of doing things and then you have Naruto's. Good ol' fashioned work your ass off doing the same things you did before but with shadow clones...You might as well go, Oh Sasuke, all the angst, the only thing that drives him, angst angst angst. How about Shikamaru, okay he's a genius, still lazy as hell, but still saves the day. Are you sure it's not just because you can't relate or are not as interested in Naruto or are there actual flaws in how is character has developed? Sasuke has always thought that Naruto had it better than he did, so does your discriminant banter not reflect the same way Sasuke feels?
Nope . I find Sasuke's angst annoying, but I still prefer his development over Naruto's. I mean, I'm not even talking about character development right now but his development as a ninja. No one works harder than Rock Lee but Naruto makes huge leaps over him effortlessly. I'd love it if Naruto's development at least mirrored Rock Lee's. I think Sasuke is Kishimoto's character and it's quite visible. His developement is the most complex and the best imo and it clearly shows with the path he had to take in order to attain his current power. It would be nice if Naruto had developed into a more strategic thinker, or if he had new Jutsu's.
I would've preffered that he outthought his opponents, or developed his own jutsus rather than: boss1 - Super Sayan 1. boss 2 - Super Sayan 2. boss 3 - Super Sayan 3. Shikamaru is an interesting character, but what I find most interesting about him is what he offers as an actual shinobi. He may be a strategic genius but even THAT hit a wall relatively easily in his fight against one of the sound 4 (Hell in half his fights lol). Naruto has no ceiling. If the boss is stronger, it doesn't matter because Naruto becomes stronger over night, magically, without an explanation.
Btw, I think Sasuke is driven by revenge and anger, not angst. I mean even now, he's driven by revenge... against konoha instead of his brother.
What I would've preferred would be something more satisfying in Naruto's development as a ninja. Hark back to the early days where Sasuke was the "genius" and Naruto was trying his best to catch up. His 9-tails was a liability rather than an unlimited source of power he could tap into. I would've loved to see Naruto change gradually, slowly and realistically, learning how to be a brilliant tactician from Kakashi, and eventually learning "sage" mode from Pervert Sannin.
Well, I rather think rather Naruto's development is quite explained quite well. I thought too much explanation is boring like the training rasenshuriken arc, and this time there was an appropiate amount of explanation for sage mode. Sasuke on the other hand has minimal explanation where he got all his uberness from. I mean naruto has been shown consistenly he actually has great talent in learning high level techniques in short amounts of time. He learned kage bunshin in one night before he even was a chunin without an instructor. Rasengan on a field trip. His weakness was never learning new techniques, it always his lack of tactics and strategy. I felt he did improve gradually in tactics and strategy with each arc and each battle, it wasn't made clear like naruto thanking kakashi wow watching you has made me a lot smarter but the reader can attribute it partially and indirectly to kakashi's tutelage (the neji uppercut is pretty blatant). As of right now, the 9-tails is a liability. To me, the last few chapters is some of the finest writing because he broke some of his patterns and breaks the tradition of the hero always arriving before the big explosion occurs.
On January 03 2009 13:52 travis wrote: I think what needs to happen and what is going to happen is that naruto is going to go train with the oxe guy or whatever that animal is
and learn how to control his kyuubi fully
because thats the only way i see him beating sasuke or madara
That would've been pretty cool. Especially if Kyubi was a dangerous liability this entire time and Naruto had to solely rely on his normal chakra, hard work and training under Kakashi/Jiryai/the frogs up to this point.
He hasn't used the kyubi chakra in a long time in the manga, if you recall, there was a chapter where he was convinced to use his own chakra in order to achieve his goals and not rely on the kyubi not only due to the danger but also due to the sense of self-fulfillment. Sure he has a greater normal chakra capacity due to the kyubi, but we haven't seen the red chakra in a LONG time (since the Orochimaru fight, I believe), which is really the omfgwtf power that he needed quite a few times in the past. I agree with travis in that he must train a lot, we just don't see it - it would be boring for there to be chapters full of him just training. They show the major epiphanies, and the rest is all assumed. Also, he trained hard as fuck for rasengan, for wind mastery, and for 3 years under Jiraya. That is a lot of work in my opinion.
Also his innate abilities such as high chakra and the many shadow clones aiding his training only brings him up to equality with the innate abilities of characters such as Sasuke and Shikamaru.
Sasuke has personal ability in lightning element, and a hereditary strength of fire element, and a bloodline limit in sharingan to boot. relative SPOILER On top of that, he got a big boost from Itachi,/SPOILER not to mention the curse seal which has dangers like the kyubi but he uses it freely and often for his own means. He has the innate power of being a "genius," due to the sharingan. I mean, he can read and copy jutsus, as well as defy and cast genjutsu? Wtf? Seriously? That is serious shit.
Shikamaru has the innate intelligence as well as the shadow techniques he got hereditarily/through private training. If you think about it, almost every character in the story except Rock Lee, Gai, Ten Ten, and few others have some sort of innate bonus, and many of them have little to no repercussions for them. Naruto has no skill in genjutsu and his taijutsu is barely touched upon. If he didn't have huge chakra reserves, specialized training with masters and with his clones, he would be a pile of shit in comparison, and there would be no story. He had to work harder than most in order to bring his innate advantages to light (think Sasuke's imba sharingan making him a taijutsu specialist in weeks, or his unexplained ability to take chidori so much farther than the genius Kakashi), which is also evidenced in how long he was behind Sasuke in development.
Also, you have to think of how much training it must have taken to fully master shadow clones in combat. Imagine having to fight on the same side as 100 copies of yourself. The fact that they verbally talk between each other shows that they probably don't telepathically communicate (unless he is being a loser, which is possible, so I may be wrong on this), but the fact that certain shadow clones do certain things after being made is that he has to have some sort of intent before making them (like when he used them to gather information or to form oodama/rasenshuriken). If all this is true, then to coordinate a big battle with lots of clones he has to pre-emptively think of plans and strategies. He is already a miniature general, the only difference is that he has a very accurate gauge on the abilities and mentality of his minions (because they are him, lol).
In short, I think it's unfair to take too much from Naruto's training methods or abilities to call them cheat or imba or whatnot.
One thing I would like to add to the whole shadow clone tactics paragraph, he might also rely entirely on his own instincts for group coordination, but I find that unlikely. Naruto seems like the kind of character that would do different things in different situations based on whim or just because he doesn't think certain things all the way through, so I doubt there would be that kind of unity of action between his tajuu kage bunshins if there wasn't some sort of fore-thought (eliminating the option of telepathy here). Of course at least some of it is based on instinct, since he can't predict how a battle will go 100%, but he also replenishes his kage bunshins quite often nowadays, so it could be that he is constantly changing the course of the battle by essentially programming a different plan into every new batch of clones. I think that's a pretty sick concept.
On January 03 2009 14:35 Demoninja wrote: Damn, Naruto is serious business.
It's interesting to talk about, like any book or movie with a plot would be to the fans of that work. Just because it's drawings and kids fighting doesn't mean that there isn't something to discuss or debate. Please get off your high horse and cut the condescending implications.
If you didn't notice, I was adding some small things into the discussion. I didn't mean for my statement to sound negative. Sorry if it offended you >_>
On January 03 2009 14:39 Demoninja wrote: If you didn't notice, I was adding some small things into the discussion. I didn't mean for my statement to sound negative. Sorry if it offended you >_>
Ah, then I have to apologize, I don't pay much attention to user names unless I quote them or have a response, so I could have easily missed your contributions. Looking at just that post it was easy for me to assume that you were just some asshole dropping in to shit on people's discussion, but now that I see it in a different light it's kind of funny lol. Sorry.
On January 03 2009 04:36 freelander wrote: I think he is stronger then Jiraya because: -he is regenerating thx for the fox -has much more chakra -has better stamina -has better KO attack (rasen shuriken >> big rasengan, and as I wrote before, I think he learnt throwing the rasen shuriken)
he probably knows much less techniques, has less experience and dumber, but the aforementioned things can make up for these shortcomings
I do not recall any chapter where they say he learned to throw the rasenshuriken, if he did that would be major ownage. But I doubt it.
it wasn't said anywhere but...
first Naruto 418 page 10: he says: "I think I got it" "not perfect yet" "I need to practice it in sage mode" Look at the picture in the spoiler! + Show Spoiler +
IMO This means, if he uses rasen-shuriken in sage mode, it won't hurt his hand!
On January 03 2009 04:36 freelander wrote: I think he is stronger then Jiraya because: -he is regenerating thx for the fox -has much more chakra -has better stamina -has better KO attack (rasen shuriken >> big rasengan, and as I wrote before, I think he learnt throwing the rasen shuriken)
he probably knows much less techniques, has less experience and dumber, but the aforementioned things can make up for these shortcomings
I do not recall any chapter where they say he learned to throw the rasenshuriken, if he did that would be major ownage. But I doubt it.
IMO This means, if he uses rasen-shuriken in sage mode, it won't hurt his hand!
I think so too. I recall a chapter where the frog says that using the energy of nature incremented the healing rate, and if you add this to the healing recovery of the 9 tail fox, then he might use rasen-shuriken in sage mode since the destructive power of it in his hand would be nullified by his recovery power.
I think it just doesn't hurt him, as falling down from 50 m high place didn't hurt him (when he first got sage mode). As it was stated before, the nerves don't really heal and can't be healed. IMO!
EPT
. I find Sasuke's angst annoying, but I still prefer his development over Naruto's. I mean, I'm not even talking about character development right now but his development as a ninja. No one works harder than Rock Lee but Naruto makes huge leaps over him effortlessly. I'd love it if Naruto's development at least mirrored Rock Lee's. I think Sasuke is Kishimoto's favourite character and it's painfully obvious. His developement is the most complex and the best imo and it clearly shows the difficult path he had to take in order to attain his current power. I mean, he even had to make a deal with the devil. It would be nice if Naruto had developed into a more strategic thinker, or if he had new Jutsu's.![[image loading]](http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/9712/naruto1va6.jpg)
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