EPTDragon Ball Super Discussion - Page 54
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This is a thread that is dedicated to discussing Dragon Ball Super. Do not read this thread if you are not currently caught up as there are spoilers in here. If a chapter or an episode has already been officially released, then it is not necessary to post using spoilers. If you have knowledge on a chapter that has been released or a chapter/episode that has not been officially released yet, do NOT post it in this thread without spoilers. Ignoring this public note will result in a mod action. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
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Shock710
Australia6097 Posts
On April 17 2017 20:27 Thezzy wrote: Trunks is also half Saiyan, which means he can get a big boost from transforming. At this point we'll just have to ignore it. Sure DBZ had power gaps but this is where transformations came in. Frieza didn't instantly start at max power and had to transform several times. Cell had to absorb the androids. This built up power over time and allowed the story to make some sense. If 100% Frieza showed up at the start of the Namek saga and had a fight with anyone it would have made zero sense. And the gap between SSJB and the non-Saiyans is even larger than that. ^ pretty much Also for the people who continuously insist that the reason goku transforms into ssjblue is that it allows for complete or very near complete control over Ki thus he can adjust his power lvl to w/e is required to fight whoever. However this fine adjustment as already been seen in dbz without the need for god ki, if it was the case that ssj had shitty control over how much power their actions have goku would be throwing senzu beans like a bullet, patting people on the back would break it and grabbing or touching anything would result in breaking it, they are unbelievably powerful in just ssj1 form. Some people are using examples like if ssjblue was a super fast car and 17 was a slower car, the fastest car could obviously accerlate to the max and crush it or it could just slowly increase its speed for a closer race with the slower car. But thats not what its like in relative it would be like a snail vs a fucken jet plane (thats how i feel 17 should match up to ssjblue). In the end you would just realise how far behind they are compared to you. If goku is actually holding back a considerable amount of power i dont see how he can be happy with recruiting them the idea that they are anywhere close to him in fighting form is absurd, he should be feeling oh shit....these guys are so weak that i have to drop my power lvl considerably to the point where i'm really worried for them in the tournament especially as i went full out vs toppo and he seemed to fare pretty decently. But thats not whats being shown, what the show conveys is that goku may be holding back slightly but the people he's recruiting seem be able to matchup to a % of ssjblue quite handily they're not far from him, no doubt he would win but the point is the difference has closed with no explanation behind it. Both dbz and dbs have had goku leap ahead in power with transformations, training, fights with strong opponents or even just through anger making him power up and be more serious, in dbz everyone else stayed either had their own story bits to explain their own increase in power to catch up to goku in some way thus it was pretty clear who was stronger than who, dbs has goku bound ahead in power and yet with no explanation in how everyone is catching the fuck up with the exception of vegeta. On April 17 2017 10:30 LegalLord wrote: Plus there's the whole arc of Cell where they showed that it wasn't just about strength (a very direct correspondence to multipliers). Strength alone wasn't enough. . Gohan being way stronger than anyone else was the reason they beat cell period. Without him being that strong everyone was fucked they barely handled the cell juniors while gohan casually obliterated them in a single move. Infact the very last move that gohan uses to finish off cell is just a super god damn powerful ki blast. | ||
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Eridanus
United States75 Posts
Everything else was really bad. Even with the usual stuff, this episodes had the joke-like nature of the filler episodes. it's "easy." It's like estimating Starcraft player skill by their APM: only useful as a very basic measure of fighting ability. I always suspected you never played SC BW. Either way, DB was always about power. You can debate about how linear or exponential it is, and whatever. But it has always been the case that a power up or transformation made one fighter able to be on an entirely different level vs another fighter, where without that power-up/transformation, they were equal. But with the power up, you become invulnerable. There are different ways to talk about skill in combat. In the Iliad, Achilles appears invulnerable. It is unclear if that is either luck, fate, or skill. But when an edge of a weapon touches his skin, he instantly gets cut. In DB, if the power difference becomes too big, you just become immune. If you get more power, you are just able to move out of the way, without the opponent even realizing you moved out of the way. We saw literally that when Goku first arrived on Namek. And after that, he got so many 'power multipliers' that we are led to believe would be able to do the same thing several times over. So we have the Iliad, where one person can take on an army on his own. But if Achilles was just eating somewhere and not paying attention, anyone could stab him in the back and kill him. So there is nothing that makes Achilles different from Alcathous, Aeneas, Diomedes, Pandarus, Polydamas, Sarpedon, or any of those other famous characters, except for his skill when he is making a conscious effort to outfight his opponents. Otherwise, he is as human and fragile as anyone else. And then we have the DB way to do things, where you become invulnerable once you have enough of a power advantage. In the same manner, clearly DB power is also not a rock-paper-scissors thing, where people just counter each other. No. There is only one variable that describes your fighting ability; power. Yes, there are minor points about strategy. But overall, there is just one type of power when it comes to fighting. So when people say 'DB has no power levels', I wonder what that actually means. Does that mean all people have the same power? But some are just better at fighting? Does that mean there is a power level, but your fighting ability doesn't scale linearly with the actual power level number? Does it mean there are several different power level parameters, creating a rock-paper-scissor dynamics? Or does it mean DB has power levels, but they are so messed up, there is no sensible power level that can be used from DB to DB super? I guess it is the last. The power level is there, it is straightforward, but it isn't consistent because plot demands often opposed keeping old power numbers consistent. They just shouldn't have been so over dramatic with these power increases. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On April 17 2017 23:18 Eridanus wrote: The only good thing about the last episode was No.17 pointing out that if the entire universe gets erased, that that doesn't matter. Which is true. There is no moral reason, utilitarian or some other school, to try really hard to prevent the universe from getting erased. Everything else was really bad. Even with the usual stuff, this episodes had the joke-like nature of the filler episodes. I always suspected you never played SC BW. Either way, DB was always about power. You can debate about how linear or exponential it is, and whatever. But it has always been the case that a power up or transformation made one fighter able to be on an entirely different level vs another fighter, where without that power-up/transformation, they were equal. But with the power up, you become invulnerable. There are different ways to talk about skill in combat. In the Iliad, Achilles appears invulnerable. It is unclear if that is either luck, fate, or skill. But when an edge of a weapon touches his skin, he instantly gets cut. In DB, if the power difference becomes too big, you just become immune. If you get more power, you are just able to move out of the way, without the opponent even realizing you moved out of the way. We saw literally that when Goku first arrived on Namek. And after that, he got so many 'power multipliers' that we are led to believe would be able to do the same thing several times over. So we have the Iliad, where one person can take on an army on his own. But if Achilles was just eating somewhere and not paying attention, anyone could stab him in the back and kill him. So there is nothing that makes Achilles different from Alcathous, Aeneas, Diomedes, Pandarus, Polydamas, Sarpedon, or any of those other famous characters, except for his skill when he is making a conscious effort to outfight his opponents. Otherwise, he is as human and fragile as anyone else. And then we have the DB way to do things, where you become invulnerable once you have enough of a power advantage. In the same manner, clearly DB power is also not a rock-paper-scissors thing, where people just counter each other. No. There is only one variable that describes your fighting ability; power. Yes, there are minor points about strategy. But overall, there is just one type of power when it comes to fighting. So when people say 'DB has no power levels', I wonder what that actually means. Does that mean all people have the same power? But some are just better at fighting? Does that mean there is a power level, but your fighting ability doesn't scale linearly with the actual power level number? Does it mean there are several different power level parameters, creating a rock-paper-scissor dynamics? Or does it mean DB has power levels, but they are so messed up, there is no sensible power level that can be used from DB to DB super? I guess it is the last. The power level is there, it is straightforward, but it isn't consistent because plot demands often opposed keeping old power numbers consistent. They just shouldn't have been so over dramatic with these power increases. I think this is spot on. There have been so many instances where technique and anything except power are clearly entirely irrelevant. As you mentioned, Goku vs Ginyu force and many other instances. Krillin's destructodisk landing on Cell's neck and like a billion other instances. We have many examples of power being an overwhelming force and deciding factor. And with the number of times power has had these examples (like Beerus knocking out SSJ3 in one hit, then having a decent fight against SSB) showing how incredibly much stronger someone has become, there is little left to the imagination. Edit: Another issue I have with the current power levels: Remember the whole Goku and Beerus needing to not make the universe blow up? You know how Goku and Vegeta are being trained by a being that transcends the natural cycles of universe formation and destruction? That is special. If a being comes even close to that kind of power, they better have a damn good reason. It is one thing to say that Goku is just using like 0.00001% of his power. But the idea that Android 17 actually somewhat caught up to Goku would be an enormous joke. So long as Beerus 1-shotted SSJ3, and SSB Goku vs Beerus almost blew up the universe, there should be no uncertainty as to how much stronger than 17/Piccolo/Tien/18 Goku is. edit#2: I should add that I think the idea that the universe would have exploded if they kept fighting was really stupid. That should be removed and considered non-canon for the sake/future of the show. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On April 17 2017 21:49 Shock710 wrote: Gohan being way stronger than anyone else was the reason they beat cell period. Without him being that strong everyone was fucked they barely handled the cell juniors while gohan casually obliterated them in a single move. Infact the very last move that gohan uses to finish off cell is just a super god damn powerful ki blast. Gohan was stronger, yes - but only in the sense that he managed to unlock a form that gave power but not at the cost of speed. That was one factor considered there; another one that came into focus was stamina. Kid Buu wasn't significantly stronger, if at all, than SSJ3 Goku (Goku and Vegeta, upon seeing him, said something along the lines of "oh, that looks like something we could find a way to beat"). But Kid Buu had the legendary endurance of the Buu line and was unable to be properly defeated so he simply outlasted Goku. Sure, that SSJ3 form allowed for more power than at the time SSJ2 could ever offer, but that also wasn't set in stone - future Trunks and Vegeta both demonstrated that such power could be unlocked by SSJ2 being used in a more effective way. Bottom line, it's not all about power "level" and it most certainly isn't just a straight multiplier on power. These definitions are a fair bit more nebulous than that. Of course, the other factor is that Toriyama is not really the most internally consistent of individuals; he is able to do something as egregious as forgetting Launch even existed. So fuck knows what he's thinking at any given moment. I never considered any of the DB franchise to be well known for its consistency and cleverness in writing. It made for good stories but not without reservation. On April 18 2017 00:34 Mohdoo wrote: edit#2: I should add that I think the idea that the universe would have exploded if they kept fighting was really stupid. That should be removed and considered non-canon for the sake/future of the show. Yes, that was stupid, and anime-only. Ignore it. Ignoring stupid writing not present in the manga is a staple of being a DB(Z/S) fan. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On April 18 2017 01:58 LegalLord wrote: Bottom line, it's not all about power "level" and it most certainly isn't just a straight multiplier on power. These definitions are a fair bit more nebulous than that. The issue I still have with this thinking are these specific instances: 1. Post-gravity-training Goku vs Ginyu force. This was the first example of jaw dropping dominance. Goku's movements weren't even slightly visible and he was on some entirely different level. 2. Fused Piccolo vs the various stages of Frieza (from dominant to puny) 3. Trunks vs frieza on earth 4. Trunks vs 17/18 5. Krillin's destructodisk vs Frieza (clean slice of that tail) compared to the one he used against Cell (like a poof of smoke) after a shit load of training 5.5. Dabura is said to be roughly the same strength as perfect Cell. Look at what happens to Dabura. 6. Fat Buu vs Majin Vegeta (Vegeta was not just unable to keep up, Buu was body slamming the guy) 7. Beerus vs SSJ3/SSB When you look at all the jumps in power across these, DBZ/S has undergone some insane power growth. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Freeza was the only opponent in DBZ who was actually weaker than the protagonists at the time of his defeat though. Everyone else, they beat through some combination of power and strategy. | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On April 18 2017 06:35 blade55555 wrote: I would say Gohan was stronger then Cell, so would be both Freeza and Cell .Yeah, my understanding is that Trunks and Vegeta managed to inch out some kinda SSJ1.5 thing that just made them buff in some kinda berserker thing. But Gohan was the first to hit actual SSJ2 status. In terms of raw strength, I'd say a good ole fashion kamehameha struggle is a perfect test. Gohan's overtook Cell's. Gohan was stronger than Cell and this came after Cell had already gotten much stronger after his recovery from blowing up king kai's planet. Dat Saiyan blood making Cell return stronger after being "defeated". | ||
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6668 Posts
On April 18 2017 06:35 blade55555 wrote: I would say Gohan was stronger then Cell, so would be both Freeza and Cell .Yea Gohan dumpstered Cell pretty hard. Ginyu force again Goku was the clear stronger than. Raditz - Strategy Nappa- Stronger than Vegeta - Strategy Ginyu force - Stronger than Freeze - Stronger than Androids - Mix of both througout the arc Cell - Stronger than Buu - Strategy Is kind of how I view it in terms of whether they need strategy or raw strength to win. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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TMG26
Portugal2017 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On April 18 2017 06:46 LegalLord wrote: Gohan was weaker than Super Perfect Cell. Gohan's blast was weaker but they won with Vegeta throwing Cell off balance. While his arm was blasted, he was still stronger imo. He was still holding back a lot of power even before Vegeta threw Cell off balance. I think of Gohan hadn't gotten hurt he would have beat cell as well. | ||
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Thezzy
Netherlands2117 Posts
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Necro)Phagist(
Canada6668 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
In any case, in the moment of the final facedown, Cell was clearly the stronger one. Otherwise they wouldn't have even needed to try to throw him off. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
It all happened in the blink of an eye, so losing concentration for even that long is fatal. It wasn't meant to show how weak Vegeta was; he was the only one who could actually do anything at all to Cell. He simply gave Gohan an opening to turn a wave blast he was losing into a quick victory. Goku says, "Now's your chance" - as in, that's the opportunity he actually has to win it. What was the point of the entire sequence of characters trying to throw Cell off balance if Gohan was strong enough as-is? It was pretty clear he was not, that he was losing, and that it was a desperate last-ditch effort that succeeded by the power of the only remaining character who barely managed not to become obsolete by power creep. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On April 22 2017 04:38 LegalLord wrote: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBKTdPxoiYo It all happened in the blink of an eye, so losing concentration for even that long is fatal. It wasn't meant to show how weak Vegeta was; he was the only one who could actually do anything at all to Cell. He simply gave Gohan an opening to turn a wave blast he was losing into a quick victory. Goku says, "Now's your chance" - as in, that's the opportunity he actually has to win it. What was the point of the entire sequence of characters trying to throw Cell off balance if Gohan was strong enough as-is? It was pretty clear he was not, that he was losing, and that it was a desperate last-ditch effort that succeeded by the power of the only remaining character who barely managed not to become obsolete by power creep. The bolded part contradicts your earlier arguments about the importance of raw strength in Dragonball. | ||
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