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On April 16 2017 18:05 HolydaKing wrote: Indeed.. next episode is probably gonna be painful. Anyway I had to laugh when No. 17 was able to effordlessly match blue Goku.
And he wasn't at maximum power!
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On April 16 2017 18:30 MoneyHypeMike wrote:Show nested quote +On April 16 2017 18:05 HolydaKing wrote: Indeed.. next episode is probably gonna be painful. Anyway I had to laugh when No. 17 was able to effordlessly match blue Goku. And he wasn't at maximum power! Just when we thought god ki power-ups were the shit, 17 comes around and shows us that the true path to power is the park ranger power-up.
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Yeh it's getting ridiculous now.
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Next up: Goku needing to go SSJ Blue to keep up with the legendary Muten-Roshi.
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Pffft.... As far as I know, SSJB is something that goes somewhat near Beerus level of power. Beerus, who one-shotted SSJ3 Goku with a single tap on the shoulder without even trying. And 17 is from the era of regular SSJ and SSJ2 Gohan all the way at the end of the Cell saga.
The power gap between then and now is enormous if not say 100 or 1000 fold. Sure, 17 could've trained a lot and maybe get to SSJ2 level. 17 doesn't have any transformations or other gimmicks that would've given him a power jump so seeing him matched with SSJB just made no sense. The only two major factors that 17 (and 18) have is undetectable energy and limitless stamina due to being androids. Neither helps against the SSJB power gap in any meaningful way.
It also seems Goku's way of testing someone is to blast them with a SSJB Kamehameha and hope they don't get vaporized?
Also, the aliens showing up at the end aiming for that one animal that was *just* introduced along with 17 is extremely convenient. Obviously they'll do something bad and 17 will be convinced to join the tournament. Meh.
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Well i have to stop caring about power lvls cause its just so stupid, they have established that improving on your own requires either extreme conditions or powerful enemies, how is 17 in any of those. He already could flick a human and kill them fighting poachers would be lifting a 1g of weight for training for years and being like HEYO i can match up to goku blue...
w/e i just want them to reach the tournament, at least we can hope these minor characters basically get shoved aside and we can forget about them as the sayians fight someone interesting.
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Yeah not a big fan of that episode. I might just stop watching until the tournament starts
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On April 16 2017 22:19 Thezzy wrote: Pffft.... As far as I know, SSJB is something that goes somewhat near Beerus level of power. Beerus, who one-shotted SSJ3 Goku with a single tap on the shoulder without even trying. And 17 is from the era of regular SSJ and SSJ2 Gohan all the way at the end of the Cell saga.
The power gap between then and now is enormous if not say 100 or 1000 fold. Sure, 17 could've trained a lot and maybe get to SSJ2 level. 17 doesn't have any transformations or other gimmicks that would've given him a power jump so seeing him matched with SSJB just made no sense. The only two major factors that 17 (and 18) have is undetectable energy and limitless stamina due to being androids. Neither helps against the SSJB power gap in any meaningful way.
It also seems Goku's way of testing someone is to blast them with a SSJB Kamehameha and hope they don't get vaporized?
Also, the aliens showing up at the end aiming for that one animal that was *just* introduced along with 17 is extremely convenient. Obviously they'll do something bad and 17 will be convinced to join the tournament. Meh.
Agreed 100%. This is just madness at this point. Was DBZ a science that was totally consistent? No, but it was at least somewhat roughly so. This is just out of control.
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Just wait for the tournament and see some big ad booooms.
Its not like dbz was ever really consistent or even good written when compared to modern shounens "early" arks.
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Idk man dbz's main story seemed pretty consistant to me (even tho i watched it as a kid i enjoy dbz so much i often go bsck to watch arcs or highlights) when they were in the serious parts sure there were times where they goofed up in places leading up to battles with some what fillers but i never felt the power rank feel off.
The only somewhat stand out one is when picolo merges with kami and becomes stronger than vegeta when he just reached ssj.
Which you could argue why didnt they just do that and beat frieza? Personally for me i think the answer is somewhere around that picolo's base strength at that time wasnt enough for the merge to be powerful enough and the lost of kami meant no earth dragon balls.
Vegeta showed that he can over come the jump in power that picolo gets by training in ssj form. Having trunks warn them about the androids let the story say look knowing this they then spent the next few years training their butts off because they are going to die if they dont. So its reasonablr for everyone to get jump in power.
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i definently wanna see master roshi beat up ssj blue goku just for the luls and illogical storytelling
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I just tell myself Goku is practicing holding back while in SSB, because he's not allowed to kill anyone during the tournament. But I know I'm just making excuses for the writers.
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On April 17 2017 08:25 Antipathy wrote: I just tell myself Goku is practicing holding back while in SSB, because he's not allowed to kill anyone during the tournament. But I know I'm just making excuses for the writers. There's also the part where they're so powerful that they can destroy stuff by hitting air, or stuff like the way Vegeta killed the Saibaman back then. If this was just somewhat consistent, someone as far down the power level ladder as Roshi, would die from one of the countless opponents missing a shot on each other.
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On April 16 2017 22:19 Thezzy wrote: Pffft.... As far as I know, SSJB is something that goes somewhat near Beerus level of power. Beerus, who one-shotted SSJ3 Goku with a single tap on the shoulder without even trying. And 17 is from the era of regular SSJ and SSJ2 Gohan all the way at the end of the Cell saga.
The power gap between then and now is enormous if not say 100 or 1000 fold. Sure, 17 could've trained a lot and maybe get to SSJ2 level. 17 doesn't have any transformations or other gimmicks that would've given him a power jump so seeing him matched with SSJB just made no sense. The only two major factors that 17 (and 18) have is undetectable energy and limitless stamina due to being androids. Neither helps against the SSJB power gap in any meaningful way.
It also seems Goku's way of testing someone is to blast them with a SSJB Kamehameha and hope they don't get vaporized?
Also, the aliens showing up at the end aiming for that one animal that was *just* introduced along with 17 is extremely convenient. Obviously they'll do something bad and 17 will be convinced to join the tournament. Meh. Pretty sure that 17 didn't receive any special training from Whis either! I'd feel a lot better about this arc, if they had done a training arc prior to it, where they buffed up the rest of the cast.
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So during the Frieza saga, Vegeta gets way stronger and surpasses Zarbon etc. Frieza owns him good. No contest. Frieza gets many times more powerful than that and then loses to SSJ Goku
In the Cell saga, we see SSJ2 is much stronger than SSJ.
In the Buu saga, we see SSJ3 is much, much stronger than SSJ2.
Beerus knocks a heavily trained SSJ3 Goku out in 1 hit.
Blue Goku trades well with Beerus but is ultimately not as strong.
When you consider where Android 17 fits into this, him getting even remotely close to blue Goku is nothing short of madness.
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
Easier point of reference: Trunks. A good example of about how strong a naturally talented individual with a strong training regimen can become in the allotted time.
I don't subscribe to the "power multiplier" appraisal of transformations honestly. They have very much proven to have nonlinear power scaling.
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On April 17 2017 10:08 LegalLord wrote: Easier point of reference: Trunks. A good example of about how strong a naturally talented individual with a strong training regimen can become in the allotted time.
I don't subscribe to the "power multiplier" appraisal of transformations honestly. They have very much proven to have nonlinear power scaling.
I dunno what there is to not subscribe to. There are numerous times that power is expressed as multiples or 10x or a percentage.
Android 17 isn't some naturally talented individual. He was made into a android as an orphan or something.
Also, Akira Toriyama gives indications in instances like this: http://www.kanzenshuu.com/translations/battle-gods-animanga-akira-toriyama/
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United Kingdom13774 Posts
Power levels are a measure that is largely useless but it's used commonly by the fanbase because it's "easy." It's like estimating Starcraft player skill by their APM: only useful as a very basic measure of fighting ability. And yet it's used very frequently as some sort of definitive measure.
There have been plenty of indications that the SSJ forms aren't very simple "power multipliers." Vegeta, Goku, Trunks, etc., have very different strengths at that transformation and it isn't because they are just so different in base form strength. And it should be noted that the characters in-universe who actually relied on power level measures were always the ones who consistently underestimated their opponents.
Yea, Toriyama does make little commentary like that 6-10-15 comment which is now an infamous one in the game of power level assignment. But he also has spoken out against power levels in the past, and whether or not you think about them, it's important to note that he has pretty much flat out said that he himself does not.
Plus there's the whole arc of Cell where they showed that it wasn't just about strength (a very direct correspondence to multipliers). Strength alone wasn't enough.
Tl;dr: no, multipliers are stupid.
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Trunks did get boosted by Black. Aside from that, Trunks has always been desperate to grow stronger since he became Earth's last line of defense, and still carried the grief of losing Gohan after all this time. There's also the part where he's inherited the blood of a Saiyan and all that comes with it. Even with everything that Trunks accomplished, it took his half-SSB transformation for him to match Black. With this power scaling, 17 should've been helping out if not taken down Buu by himself, especially when he can take advantage of his Infinite Energy.
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