EPTDragon Ball Super Discussion - Page 207
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This is a thread that is dedicated to discussing Dragon Ball Super. Do not read this thread if you are not currently caught up as there are spoilers in here. If a chapter or an episode has already been officially released, then it is not necessary to post using spoilers. If you have knowledge on a chapter that has been released or a chapter/episode that has not been officially released yet, do NOT post it in this thread without spoilers. Ignoring this public note will result in a mod action. | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9077 Posts
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Nakajin
Canada8991 Posts
Kind of ruin the chapter for me | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
1. That despite looking like a shabby nobody, Roshi is significantly stronger than people give him credit for - and he probably did far more training in the past years than he ever let on. 2. That his many years of experience gives him access to genuinely unique techniques that allow him to punch far above his weight class and, although they don't allow him to beat those who are significantly stronger, they do give him the ability to perform far better than anyone really anticipated. Roshi beat Kahseral (who you might expect to be stronger, but was explicitly said to be nothing special) and dodged a good two or three shots from Jiren before the reality of the power differential really made itself known. I think that's fair. | ||
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Dark_Chill
Canada3353 Posts
The reason I'd like to believe that is because it really does feel like Goku learning martial arts didn't matter anymore. DBZ and DBS have largely been a punching contest, and both Whis and Roshi emphasizing the importance of minimal movements and mindset are welcome to me. I'm probably giving them too much credit, especially given what happened to Gohan (Kale was stronger than Freeza and Goku for a bit, then merged to be even stronger, and then tied off-screen..) | ||
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Elentos
55594 Posts
On August 23 2018 08:03 Nakajin wrote: Honestly I am mostly bother by the Roshi thing, the manga up to this point did a pretty good job with the power differencial, with Krillin, Tien getting job by stronger caracter, but then you got Roshi you can dodge the strongest non-god beeing in the whole universes and yet couldn't dodge two 8 years old in the world martial art tournament, or dodge king picolo ect... Kind of ruin the chapter for me You have to keep in mind Jiren has to lower his power to a level where he doesn't blow Roshi to bits by moving in his general direction. His attack was so weak it didn't even KO Roshi. At that point it makes sense Roshi was able to dodge. | ||
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TT1
Canada10109 Posts
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Dark_Chill
Canada3353 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On August 22 2018 14:06 LegalLord wrote: Was a pretty decent chapter, all things considered. So is Gohan amazingly powerful or is Kefla way weaker? I feel like the anime and the manga strongly disagree on at least one of their power. In my eyes, it should be that Gohan is amazingly powerful. I would be comfortable with the idea that Blue = Mystic. Gohan was immeasurably stronger than Goku/Vegeta at the end of the Buu saga. And now Piccolo is saying Gohan is much stronger than that time? Sure, whatever, I can swallow it. As for Roshi, it is within reason to assume that he began training again in secret after the Saiyan saga. Even more so after the Buu saga. The traditional definition of his martial arts style lends itself relatively well to the idea of UI and it is conceivable that he would stumble upon some kind of level between "normal" and UI. For Roshi to be dodging a single punch from Jiren would require Roshi be just barely behind Gohan. But I honestly don't think Gohan should be able to dodge anything from Jiren. At the end of the day, I can not accept the idea that Roshi can dodge an attack from Jiren unless we are to assume Roshi has been focused purely on dodging and has been inching towards UI. But the main reason for that is basically just how DBZ was. The defining "how strong is too strong?" moment for me was when Perfect Cell disregarded Krillin and his destructo-disk. But I think that idea is plain and simply retconned. DBS seems to be entertaining the idea that even if someone is amazingly stronger than you, you can still somewhat fight them. I guess I like that? But it makes power feel less important. Maybe that is a good thing? But I do agree with other people's theories that Roshi is really, really strong now. It is also supported by the anime when they had Roshi Kamehameha Goku in his mind controlled state. That was probably intended to give the same impression as this scene. Toriyama is basically doing as he damn pleases and taking the opportunity to just straight up change shit. I think one of his directions to both the anime and the manga was: "Make Roshi relevant again". And they did that, but the manga did a worse job at justifying it. Both anime and manga should have provided at least SOME reason why he is stronger. But then again, maybe the whole point is that Roshi is really secretive and sticks to himself? We only find out about his power because we see him use it? I can stomach that as well. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Roshi being significantly stronger is directly stated. 17 said as much - “you’re not as weak as you look, are you?” But overall it’s a throwback to the way it worked in Dragonball, where strength mattered but so does technique. Roshi isn’t dodging because he has developed this grand level of power. He’s dodging because he can move faster than Jiren was even able to react to the situation and begin to respond. Couple that with the fact that Jiren would have to hold back some to fight at a level appropriate for facing someone who looks particularly weak, and it starts to make some sense. Definitely not a Z moment, but in the scope of the overall series it makes some sense. | ||
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Dark_Chill
Canada3353 Posts
On August 25 2018 04:12 Mohdoo wrote: So is Gohan amazingly powerful or is Kefla way weaker? I feel like the anime and the manga strongly disagree on at least one of their power. In my eyes, it should be that Gohan is amazingly powerful. I would be comfortable with the idea that Blue = Mystic. Gohan was immeasurably stronger than Goku/Vegeta at the end of the Buu saga. And now Piccolo is saying Gohan is much stronger than that time? Sure, whatever, I can swallow it. As for Roshi, it is within reason to assume that he began training again in secret after the Saiyan saga. Even more so after the Buu saga. The traditional definition of his martial arts style lends itself relatively well to the idea of UI and it is conceivable that he would stumble upon some kind of level between "normal" and UI. For Roshi to be dodging a single punch from Jiren would require Roshi be just barely behind Gohan. But I honestly don't think Gohan should be able to dodge anything from Jiren. At the end of the day, I can not accept the idea that Roshi can dodge an attack from Jiren unless we are to assume Roshi has been focused purely on dodging and has been inching towards UI. But the main reason for that is basically just how DBZ was. The defining "how strong is too strong?" moment for me was when Perfect Cell disregarded Krillin and his destructo-disk. But I think that idea is plain and simply retconned. DBS seems to be entertaining the idea that even if someone is amazingly stronger than you, you can still somewhat fight them. I guess I like that? But it makes power feel less important. Maybe that is a good thing? But I do agree with other people's theories that Roshi is really, really strong now. It is also supported by the anime when they had Roshi Kamehameha Goku in his mind controlled state. That was probably intended to give the same impression as this scene. Toriyama is basically doing as he damn pleases and taking the opportunity to just straight up change shit. I think one of his directions to both the anime and the manga was: "Make Roshi relevant again". And they did that, but the manga did a worse job at justifying it. Both anime and manga should have provided at least SOME reason why he is stronger. But then again, maybe the whole point is that Roshi is really secretive and sticks to himself? We only find out about his power because we see him use it? I can stomach that as well. I think the way it's presented is a body-builder vs a martial artist. Body Builder definitely has more raw power, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're better in a fight. Given that Roshi was shit power-level wise vs the other U11 dude, it looks like no one studied martial arts and are just relying on natural fighting instinct and talent. When Jiren took things a little more seriously, he easily dealt with Roshi. I think I can stomach this a little bit more than the anime, because I can at the very least come up with a reason for how this could possibly happen. I can even come up with a theory for Kefla, given that both Kale and Caulifa were near exhaustion when they finally fused. | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
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Dark_Chill
Canada3353 Posts
On August 26 2018 04:32 LegalLord wrote: Found this, thought at least a few people might appreciate it: https://youtu.be/tQNV_2-41Vg Is Dragon Ball Heroes as good as this video? | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
On August 27 2018 00:13 Dark_Chill wrote: Is Dragon Ball Heroes as good as this video? It’s pretty much this video but unironically. | ||
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Cricketer12
United States14003 Posts
On August 26 2018 04:32 LegalLord wrote: Found this, thought at least a few people might appreciate it: https://youtu.be/tQNV_2-41Vg Well that was fantastic | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On August 26 2018 04:32 LegalLord wrote: Found this, thought at least a few people might appreciate it: https://youtu.be/tQNV_2-41Vg I normally don't like parody stuff, but this was top tier. | ||
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andrewlt
United States7702 Posts
On August 25 2018 04:45 Dark_Chill wrote: I think the way it's presented is a body-builder vs a martial artist. Body Builder definitely has more raw power, but it doesn't necessarily mean that they're better in a fight. Given that Roshi was shit power-level wise vs the other U11 dude, it looks like no one studied martial arts and are just relying on natural fighting instinct and talent. When Jiren took things a little more seriously, he easily dealt with Roshi. I think I can stomach this a little bit more than the anime, because I can at the very least come up with a reason for how this could possibly happen. I can even come up with a theory for Kefla, given that both Kale and Caulifa were near exhaustion when they finally fused. It was stated in the anime that killing somebody results in a DQ. I don't remember if the manga said something similar. Roshi should be able to dodge a Jiren that's unsure how much power he's able to use. | ||
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On August 26 2018 04:32 LegalLord wrote: Found this, thought at least a few people might appreciate it: https://youtu.be/tQNV_2-41Vg I need to reiterate how good this is, just in case anyone decided not to watch it. | ||
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sashkata
Bulgaria3241 Posts
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Mohdoo
United States15743 Posts
On August 28 2018 16:26 sashkata wrote: Ok lol, I did skip it, but it was worth watching. ty Perfect. I tend to skip past youtube videos, and I knew I can't be the only one. I am glad I helped one additional person watch that glorious video. TORUNKSU lmaoooooo | ||
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LegalLord
United States13779 Posts
Heroes + Show Spoiler + Meh, it just doesn't do it for me. It's like an even lazier GT, with cookie cutter arcs and highly questionable plots masquerading as fan service. I guess I still watch it because it costs me nothing more than ten minutes a month, but it ain't great. Manga + Show Spoiler + The universe arc has been something of a mixed bag overall, but I like how they're handling Jiren here. He seems powerful but not the generic unexplained invincible buff dude he was in the anime. The "Goku and Vegeta teamwork" tidbit was also pretty neat. Overall a reasonably interesting rehash of the arc I already watched. | ||
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