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On February 13 2018 10:29 Nakajin wrote:
Fun fact there's no lead writer in DBS, only episode writers who come and go depending on the episode with general direction of where the story is going. A bit like some TV sitcom and soap opera.
It feels like it. The storytelling hurts for it, a lot, which is a shame.
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On February 13 2018 10:34 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2018 10:29 Nakajin wrote:
Fun fact there's no lead writer in DBS, only episode writers who come and go depending on the episode with general direction of where the story is going. A bit like some TV sitcom and soap opera. It feels like it. The storytelling hurts for it, a lot, which is a shame.
Nakajin do you have a source ?
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Jiren's backstory was so bland. The ToP had it's highs, but it looks like it's going to finish pretty disappointingly. Hopefully the movie is better.
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What would an awesome, unexpected, believable ending to the ToP arc look like?
Personally, I feel like we're pretty much guaranteed one of three endings:
1. Goku winning in a Goku vs. Jiren final showdown and getting to make the wish (to revive some people/ universes and stop the deletion);
2. Jiren winning in a Goku vs. Jiren final showdown and getting to make the wish (to revive some people/ universes and stop the deletion);
3. Goku and Jiren tying for first place (either both surviving until time is up or both being the last ones thrown out at the exact same time).
I don't think it's very likely for a forgotten Frieza or Vegeta to help win the numbers game, tbh. I wonder if DBS is too predictable, or if something surprising ends up happening. The worst part, imho, is that these three outcomes were easily predicted at the very start of the tournament.
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On February 14 2018 01:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
What would an awesome, unexpected, believable ending to the ToP arc look like?
Personally, I feel like we're pretty much guaranteed one of three endings:
1. Goku winning in a Goku vs. Jiren final showdown and getting to make the wish (to revive some people/ universes and stop the deletion);
2. Jiren winning in a Goku vs. Jiren final showdown and getting to make the wish (to revive some people/ universes and stop the deletion);
3. Goku and Jiren tying for first place (either both surviving until time is up or both being the last ones thrown out at the exact same time).
I don't think it's very likely for a forgotten Frieza or Vegeta to help win the numbers game, tbh. I wonder if DBS is too predictable, or if something surprising ends up happening. The worst part, imho, is that these three outcomes were easily predicted at the very start of the tournament.
4. Jiren wins and U7 gets erased - only for Zeno to reveal that it was all just a prank, bro. Everyone comes back and everything goes great and we get Goku x Caulifla and Vegetable x Cabbage canon ending.
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On February 13 2018 02:07 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2018 15:27 blade55555 wrote:
17 did better against Toppo than Gohan as well (although Gohan's fight against Toppo was brief). Dunno Gohan's not even close to blue imo.
Do I think 17 is at SSB level? From what they've shown he's gotta be close to it. I'm kinda surprised at how much hate this episode is getting, I thought it was really good but oh well I am also easier to please on a show than most people. that was complete bullshit. Sure, Gohan is nowhere close to Blue but so is 17. DBS is trying to spin it as him being close, that's utterly and completely bs. It's one thing to say he's smart and strong but 17 had no business surviving to the end. Freiza makes much more sense for example and even he was demolished by Toppo... Also, what was 17 doing this whole time? He was working in some conservatory. I'm sure fighting villains with guns who even trunks or goten can easily handle gave him such god powers. On a side note, I still liked the episode though the sacrifice at the end felt meaningless since he can be wished back.
17 is not a robot. Dr Gero altered his biochemistry using technology, but he is, at the core, an organic lifeform. The power he had when he was birthed was purely a result of Dr Gero's technology, not training or anything of the sort. Dr Gero gave him fighting knowledge, but he did not learn to fight by growing as a fighter. From that, we can basically say that Dr Gero's technology gives humans such an insane advantage that an average human is significantly stronger than SSJ, which is pretty remarkable. It may be a bit of a stretch, but it is hard to call it anything but canon.
Now let's take a look at the sort of power bump Frieza got, since Frieza is pretty similar. Though, unlike 17, Frieza has actually fought and whatnot throughout his life. After 4 months of training, he manages to go from below SSJ to a little bit above Blue. Bonkers. But from what we know, Dr Gero's technology to enhance human physiology is actually a lot better than Frieza's physiology.
Now let's look at when Android 17 was resurrected. He said he spent his time training since we last saw him.
Krillin and 18 are married on age 770. On age 780, *10 years* later, the tournament of power begins. If we assume Android 17 has only been training for as long as Krillin and 18 are married, or hell, even 5 years less, that is still an insane amount of training time. 17 is more gifted than Frieza, trained for longer than Frieza, and clearly should be much, much stronger than Gohan.
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Canada8991 Posts
On February 14 2018 00:47 Mun_Su wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2018 10:34 NewSunshine wrote:On February 13 2018 10:29 Nakajin wrote:
Fun fact there's no lead writer in DBS, only episode writers who come and go depending on the episode with general direction of where the story is going. A bit like some TV sitcom and soap opera. It feels like it. The storytelling hurts for it, a lot, which is a shame. Nakajin do you have a source ?
Hum it's something I heard in a youtube video, so it may very well be bulshitt.
Basically the guy said that Toriyama only give vague script structure and plots points and left Toei and Toyotaro adapt them, with Toei having the lead. But there isn't a single person who is responsable of writing the story since they always are depending on Toriyama changing is mind, there is not a precise canonical script by which DB super is writen. When I said writers come and go I didn't mean they literreraly have someone work on one episode with full liberty and leave, but that they have different teams working on each episodes changes and they have a lot of liberty to change things, sometime creating incoherence.
For exemple here's the staf for episode 127-129 https://twitter.com/GovetaXV/status/961420647422361600/photo/1?ref_src=twsrc^tfw&ref_url=http://comicbook.com/anime/2018/02/09/dragon-ball-super-new-episode-staff/
I will try to look for a source latter tonight for them not having a lead writer.
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On February 14 2018 02:05 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2018 02:07 BigFan wrote:On February 12 2018 15:27 blade55555 wrote:
17 did better against Toppo than Gohan as well (although Gohan's fight against Toppo was brief). Dunno Gohan's not even close to blue imo.
Do I think 17 is at SSB level? From what they've shown he's gotta be close to it. I'm kinda surprised at how much hate this episode is getting, I thought it was really good but oh well I am also easier to please on a show than most people. that was complete bullshit. Sure, Gohan is nowhere close to Blue but so is 17. DBS is trying to spin it as him being close, that's utterly and completely bs. It's one thing to say he's smart and strong but 17 had no business surviving to the end. Freiza makes much more sense for example and even he was demolished by Toppo... Also, what was 17 doing this whole time? He was working in some conservatory. I'm sure fighting villains with guns who even trunks or goten can easily handle gave him such god powers. On a side note, I still liked the episode though the sacrifice at the end felt meaningless since he can be wished back. 17 is not a robot. Dr Gero altered his biochemistry using technology, but he is, at the core, an organic lifeform. The power he had when he was birthed was purely a result of Dr Gero's technology, not training or anything of the sort. Dr Gero gave him fighting knowledge, but he did not learn to fight by growing as a fighter. From that, we can basically say that Dr Gero's technology gives humans such an insane advantage that an average human is significantly stronger than SSJ, which is pretty remarkable. It may be a bit of a stretch, but it is hard to call it anything but canon. Now let's take a look at the sort of power bump Frieza got, since Frieza is pretty similar. Though, unlike 17, Frieza has actually fought and whatnot throughout his life. After 4 months of training, he manages to go from below SSJ to a little bit above Blue. Bonkers. But from what we know, Dr Gero's technology to enhance human physiology is actually a lot better than Frieza's physiology. Now let's look at when Android 17 was resurrected. He said he spent his time training since we last saw him. Krillin and 18 are married on age 770. On age 780, *10 years* later, the tournament of power begins. If we assume Android 17 has only been training for as long as Krillin and 18 are married, or hell, even 5 years less, that is still an insane amount of training time. 17 is more gifted than Frieza, trained for longer than Frieza, and clearly should be much, much strongeor than Gohan.
Wtf training isnt a one dimensional increase there is quality to training thats why the hyperbolic time chamber and dr.briefs capsule (with the 100x gravity) was able to push the sayians so far ahead fuck gokus being training all his life and yet there was no increase greater than his during his trip to namek (pre that moment in the show)
17 has being fighting people he can literally flick and kill, at the guys creation he outclasses humans by miles there is like zero effort he needs to kill, maybe some if hes bent on just arresting them but still like nothing he doesnt even need to dodge bullets. Nothing on that island indicates he has had any pressure to train beyond what he was. (And please dont say the fucken animals...)
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I wonder if he killed the animals or saved the animals...
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TLADT24920 Posts
On February 14 2018 07:30 Shock710 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2018 02:05 Mohdoo wrote:On February 13 2018 02:07 BigFan wrote:On February 12 2018 15:27 blade55555 wrote:
17 did better against Toppo than Gohan as well (although Gohan's fight against Toppo was brief). Dunno Gohan's not even close to blue imo.
Do I think 17 is at SSB level? From what they've shown he's gotta be close to it. I'm kinda surprised at how much hate this episode is getting, I thought it was really good but oh well I am also easier to please on a show than most people. that was complete bullshit. Sure, Gohan is nowhere close to Blue but so is 17. DBS is trying to spin it as him being close, that's utterly and completely bs. It's one thing to say he's smart and strong but 17 had no business surviving to the end. Freiza makes much more sense for example and even he was demolished by Toppo... Also, what was 17 doing this whole time? He was working in some conservatory. I'm sure fighting villains with guns who even trunks or goten can easily handle gave him such god powers. On a side note, I still liked the episode though the sacrifice at the end felt meaningless since he can be wished back. 17 is not a robot. Dr Gero altered his biochemistry using technology, but he is, at the core, an organic lifeform. The power he had when he was birthed was purely a result of Dr Gero's technology, not training or anything of the sort. Dr Gero gave him fighting knowledge, but he did not learn to fight by growing as a fighter. From that, we can basically say that Dr Gero's technology gives humans such an insane advantage that an average human is significantly stronger than SSJ, which is pretty remarkable. It may be a bit of a stretch, but it is hard to call it anything but canon. Now let's take a look at the sort of power bump Frieza got, since Frieza is pretty similar. Though, unlike 17, Frieza has actually fought and whatnot throughout his life. After 4 months of training, he manages to go from below SSJ to a little bit above Blue. Bonkers. But from what we know, Dr Gero's technology to enhance human physiology is actually a lot better than Frieza's physiology. Now let's look at when Android 17 was resurrected. He said he spent his time training since we last saw him. Krillin and 18 are married on age 770. On age 780, *10 years* later, the tournament of power begins. If we assume Android 17 has only been training for as long as Krillin and 18 are married, or hell, even 5 years less, that is still an insane amount of training time. 17 is more gifted than Frieza, trained for longer than Frieza, and clearly should be much, much strongeor than Gohan. Wtf training isnt a one dimensional increase there is quality to training thats why the hyperbolic time chamber and dr.briefs capsule (with the 100x gravity) was able to push the sayians so far ahead fuck gokus being training all his life and yet there was no increase greater than his during his trip to namek (pre that moment in the show) 17 has being fighting people he can literally flick and kill, at the guys creation he outclasses humans by miles there is like zero effort he needs to kill, maybe some if hes bent on just arresting them but still like nothing he doesnt even need to dodge bullets. Nothing on that island indicates he has had any pressure to train beyond what he was. (And please dont say the fucken animals...)
lol you took the words out of my mouth. There was nothing to push 17 at all to even get stronger and Gohan was so far ahead with mystic Gohan. Like, my God, Gohan in mystic form was dominating buu at one point and was the strongest around. Stronger than SSJ3 etc... and 17 can't even scratch that. Even if Gohan went soft, 17 hasn't done much either so at worst and this is like really really underplaying mystic levels, they can be even or Gohan slightly ahead due to how level going down from lack of training.
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Honestly 17 didn’t bother me much though. He lasted a long time but he didn’t exactly beat any of the OP people. Mostly he just had endurance.
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And intelligence... Like, he's one of the only people smart enough to attack before a person's powerups are finished. He definitely played to win.
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On February 14 2018 08:23 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2018 07:30 Shock710 wrote:On February 14 2018 02:05 Mohdoo wrote:On February 13 2018 02:07 BigFan wrote:On February 12 2018 15:27 blade55555 wrote:
17 did better against Toppo than Gohan as well (although Gohan's fight against Toppo was brief). Dunno Gohan's not even close to blue imo.
Do I think 17 is at SSB level? From what they've shown he's gotta be close to it. I'm kinda surprised at how much hate this episode is getting, I thought it was really good but oh well I am also easier to please on a show than most people. that was complete bullshit. Sure, Gohan is nowhere close to Blue but so is 17. DBS is trying to spin it as him being close, that's utterly and completely bs. It's one thing to say he's smart and strong but 17 had no business surviving to the end. Freiza makes much more sense for example and even he was demolished by Toppo... Also, what was 17 doing this whole time? He was working in some conservatory. I'm sure fighting villains with guns who even trunks or goten can easily handle gave him such god powers. On a side note, I still liked the episode though the sacrifice at the end felt meaningless since he can be wished back. 17 is not a robot. Dr Gero altered his biochemistry using technology, but he is, at the core, an organic lifeform. The power he had when he was birthed was purely a result of Dr Gero's technology, not training or anything of the sort. Dr Gero gave him fighting knowledge, but he did not learn to fight by growing as a fighter. From that, we can basically say that Dr Gero's technology gives humans such an insane advantage that an average human is significantly stronger than SSJ, which is pretty remarkable. It may be a bit of a stretch, but it is hard to call it anything but canon. Now let's take a look at the sort of power bump Frieza got, since Frieza is pretty similar. Though, unlike 17, Frieza has actually fought and whatnot throughout his life. After 4 months of training, he manages to go from below SSJ to a little bit above Blue. Bonkers. But from what we know, Dr Gero's technology to enhance human physiology is actually a lot better than Frieza's physiology. Now let's look at when Android 17 was resurrected. He said he spent his time training since we last saw him. Krillin and 18 are married on age 770. On age 780, *10 years* later, the tournament of power begins. If we assume Android 17 has only been training for as long as Krillin and 18 are married, or hell, even 5 years less, that is still an insane amount of training time. 17 is more gifted than Frieza, trained for longer than Frieza, and clearly should be much, much strongeor than Gohan. Wtf training isnt a one dimensional increase there is quality to training thats why the hyperbolic time chamber and dr.briefs capsule (with the 100x gravity) was able to push the sayians so far ahead fuck gokus being training all his life and yet there was no increase greater than his during his trip to namek (pre that moment in the show) 17 has being fighting people he can literally flick and kill, at the guys creation he outclasses humans by miles there is like zero effort he needs to kill, maybe some if hes bent on just arresting them but still like nothing he doesnt even need to dodge bullets. Nothing on that island indicates he has had any pressure to train beyond what he was. (And please dont say the fucken animals...) lol you took the words out of my mouth. There was nothing to push 17 at all to even get stronger and Gohan was so far ahead with mystic Gohan. Like, my God, Gohan in mystic form was dominating buu at one point and was the strongest around. Stronger than SSJ3 etc... and 17 can't even scratch that. Even if Gohan went soft, 17 hasn't done much either so at worst and this is like really really underplaying mystic levels, they can be even or Gohan slightly ahead due to how level going down from lack of training.
He wasn't training against poachers. He was doing 2 things. He was training and he was protecting animals. Piccolo has shown us the amount of training that can be done totally solo. The idea of self training into insane power isn't new. Keep in mind that Frieza's training partner was incomparably weaker.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On February 14 2018 10:29 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2018 08:23 BigFan wrote:On February 14 2018 07:30 Shock710 wrote:On February 14 2018 02:05 Mohdoo wrote:On February 13 2018 02:07 BigFan wrote:On February 12 2018 15:27 blade55555 wrote:
17 did better against Toppo than Gohan as well (although Gohan's fight against Toppo was brief). Dunno Gohan's not even close to blue imo.
Do I think 17 is at SSB level? From what they've shown he's gotta be close to it. I'm kinda surprised at how much hate this episode is getting, I thought it was really good but oh well I am also easier to please on a show than most people. that was complete bullshit. Sure, Gohan is nowhere close to Blue but so is 17. DBS is trying to spin it as him being close, that's utterly and completely bs. It's one thing to say he's smart and strong but 17 had no business surviving to the end. Freiza makes much more sense for example and even he was demolished by Toppo... Also, what was 17 doing this whole time? He was working in some conservatory. I'm sure fighting villains with guns who even trunks or goten can easily handle gave him such god powers. On a side note, I still liked the episode though the sacrifice at the end felt meaningless since he can be wished back. 17 is not a robot. Dr Gero altered his biochemistry using technology, but he is, at the core, an organic lifeform. The power he had when he was birthed was purely a result of Dr Gero's technology, not training or anything of the sort. Dr Gero gave him fighting knowledge, but he did not learn to fight by growing as a fighter. From that, we can basically say that Dr Gero's technology gives humans such an insane advantage that an average human is significantly stronger than SSJ, which is pretty remarkable. It may be a bit of a stretch, but it is hard to call it anything but canon. Now let's take a look at the sort of power bump Frieza got, since Frieza is pretty similar. Though, unlike 17, Frieza has actually fought and whatnot throughout his life. After 4 months of training, he manages to go from below SSJ to a little bit above Blue. Bonkers. But from what we know, Dr Gero's technology to enhance human physiology is actually a lot better than Frieza's physiology. Now let's look at when Android 17 was resurrected. He said he spent his time training since we last saw him. Krillin and 18 are married on age 770. On age 780, *10 years* later, the tournament of power begins. If we assume Android 17 has only been training for as long as Krillin and 18 are married, or hell, even 5 years less, that is still an insane amount of training time. 17 is more gifted than Frieza, trained for longer than Frieza, and clearly should be much, much strongeor than Gohan. Wtf training isnt a one dimensional increase there is quality to training thats why the hyperbolic time chamber and dr.briefs capsule (with the 100x gravity) was able to push the sayians so far ahead fuck gokus being training all his life and yet there was no increase greater than his during his trip to namek (pre that moment in the show) 17 has being fighting people he can literally flick and kill, at the guys creation he outclasses humans by miles there is like zero effort he needs to kill, maybe some if hes bent on just arresting them but still like nothing he doesnt even need to dodge bullets. Nothing on that island indicates he has had any pressure to train beyond what he was. (And please dont say the fucken animals...) lol you took the words out of my mouth. There was nothing to push 17 at all to even get stronger and Gohan was so far ahead with mystic Gohan. Like, my God, Gohan in mystic form was dominating buu at one point and was the strongest around. Stronger than SSJ3 etc... and 17 can't even scratch that. Even if Gohan went soft, 17 hasn't done much either so at worst and this is like really really underplaying mystic levels, they can be even or Gohan slightly ahead due to how level going down from lack of training. He wasn't training against poachers. He was doing 2 things. He was training and he was protecting animals. Piccolo has shown us the amount of training that can be done totally solo. The idea of self training into insane power isn't new. Keep in mind that Frieza's training partner was incomparably weaker.
Honestly, I don't care enough about this to actually argue back and forth about it. Let's just agree to disagree ~
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On February 14 2018 10:50 BigFan wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2018 10:29 Mohdoo wrote:On February 14 2018 08:23 BigFan wrote:On February 14 2018 07:30 Shock710 wrote:On February 14 2018 02:05 Mohdoo wrote:On February 13 2018 02:07 BigFan wrote:On February 12 2018 15:27 blade55555 wrote:
17 did better against Toppo than Gohan as well (although Gohan's fight against Toppo was brief). Dunno Gohan's not even close to blue imo.
Do I think 17 is at SSB level? From what they've shown he's gotta be close to it. I'm kinda surprised at how much hate this episode is getting, I thought it was really good but oh well I am also easier to please on a show than most people. that was complete bullshit. Sure, Gohan is nowhere close to Blue but so is 17. DBS is trying to spin it as him being close, that's utterly and completely bs. It's one thing to say he's smart and strong but 17 had no business surviving to the end. Freiza makes much more sense for example and even he was demolished by Toppo... Also, what was 17 doing this whole time? He was working in some conservatory. I'm sure fighting villains with guns who even trunks or goten can easily handle gave him such god powers. On a side note, I still liked the episode though the sacrifice at the end felt meaningless since he can be wished back. 17 is not a robot. Dr Gero altered his biochemistry using technology, but he is, at the core, an organic lifeform. The power he had when he was birthed was purely a result of Dr Gero's technology, not training or anything of the sort. Dr Gero gave him fighting knowledge, but he did not learn to fight by growing as a fighter. From that, we can basically say that Dr Gero's technology gives humans such an insane advantage that an average human is significantly stronger than SSJ, which is pretty remarkable. It may be a bit of a stretch, but it is hard to call it anything but canon. Now let's take a look at the sort of power bump Frieza got, since Frieza is pretty similar. Though, unlike 17, Frieza has actually fought and whatnot throughout his life. After 4 months of training, he manages to go from below SSJ to a little bit above Blue. Bonkers. But from what we know, Dr Gero's technology to enhance human physiology is actually a lot better than Frieza's physiology. Now let's look at when Android 17 was resurrected. He said he spent his time training since we last saw him. Krillin and 18 are married on age 770. On age 780, *10 years* later, the tournament of power begins. If we assume Android 17 has only been training for as long as Krillin and 18 are married, or hell, even 5 years less, that is still an insane amount of training time. 17 is more gifted than Frieza, trained for longer than Frieza, and clearly should be much, much strongeor than Gohan. Wtf training isnt a one dimensional increase there is quality to training thats why the hyperbolic time chamber and dr.briefs capsule (with the 100x gravity) was able to push the sayians so far ahead fuck gokus being training all his life and yet there was no increase greater than his during his trip to namek (pre that moment in the show) 17 has being fighting people he can literally flick and kill, at the guys creation he outclasses humans by miles there is like zero effort he needs to kill, maybe some if hes bent on just arresting them but still like nothing he doesnt even need to dodge bullets. Nothing on that island indicates he has had any pressure to train beyond what he was. (And please dont say the fucken animals...) lol you took the words out of my mouth. There was nothing to push 17 at all to even get stronger and Gohan was so far ahead with mystic Gohan. Like, my God, Gohan in mystic form was dominating buu at one point and was the strongest around. Stronger than SSJ3 etc... and 17 can't even scratch that. Even if Gohan went soft, 17 hasn't done much either so at worst and this is like really really underplaying mystic levels, they can be even or Gohan slightly ahead due to how level going down from lack of training. He wasn't training against poachers. He was doing 2 things. He was training and he was protecting animals. Piccolo has shown us the amount of training that can be done totally solo. The idea of self training into insane power isn't new. Keep in mind that Frieza's training partner was incomparably weaker. Honestly, I don't care enough about this to actually argue back and forth about it. Let's just agree to disagree ~
I don't see the problem with 17 getting a lot stronger. He did train for a long time and had potential. Getting to near blue is a bit much. And not appearing when beerus and freeza showed up is also stupid. So much time and he still can't feel ki?
In the manga goku doesn't go blue against him.
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On February 14 2018 01:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
What would an awesome, unexpected, believable ending to the ToP arc look like?
Personally, I feel like we're pretty much guaranteed one of three endings:
1. Goku winning in a Goku vs. Jiren final showdown and getting to make the wish (to revive some people/ universes and stop the deletion);
2. Jiren winning in a Goku vs. Jiren final showdown and getting to make the wish (to revive some people/ universes and stop the deletion);
3. Goku and Jiren tying for first place (either both surviving until time is up or both being the last ones thrown out at the exact same time).
I don't think it's very likely for a forgotten Frieza or Vegeta to help win the numbers game, tbh. I wonder if DBS is too predictable, or if something surprising ends up happening. The worst part, imho, is that these three outcomes were easily predicted at the very start of the tournament.
Every arc except one - Cell Games - ends with Goku saving the day. So yes it was fairly predictable.
Given the general flow of Dragon Ball Super, the most awesome, unexpected but believable ending would be Vegeta finally being the guy who saves the day, completing his slow hero's journey and finally being shoulder to shoulder with Goku instead of always being a step behind. But that arguably only works if they're never planning to do more Dragonball Z stuff, as it would be the 'happy ending' for Vegeta.
Goku doesn't need to win. Wins don't affect him in the slightest. He just likes to fight. Vegeta NEEDS to win, but he almost never does. Even when he gets to win, like with Golden Frieza, it goes hideously wrong and Goku has to fix it.
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On February 14 2018 23:41 iamthedave wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2018 01:25 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
What would an awesome, unexpected, believable ending to the ToP arc look like?
Personally, I feel like we're pretty much guaranteed one of three endings:
1. Goku winning in a Goku vs. Jiren final showdown and getting to make the wish (to revive some people/ universes and stop the deletion);
2. Jiren winning in a Goku vs. Jiren final showdown and getting to make the wish (to revive some people/ universes and stop the deletion);
3. Goku and Jiren tying for first place (either both surviving until time is up or both being the last ones thrown out at the exact same time).
I don't think it's very likely for a forgotten Frieza or Vegeta to help win the numbers game, tbh. I wonder if DBS is too predictable, or if something surprising ends up happening. The worst part, imho, is that these three outcomes were easily predicted at the very start of the tournament. Every arc except one - Cell Games - ends with Goku saving the day. So yes it was fairly predictable. Given the general flow of Dragon Ball Super, the most awesome, unexpected but believable ending would be Vegeta finally being the guy who saves the day, completing his slow hero's journey and finally being shoulder to shoulder with Goku instead of always being a step behind. But that arguably only works if they're never planning to do more Dragonball Z stuff, as it would be the 'happy ending' for Vegeta. Goku doesn't need to win. Wins don't affect him in the slightest. He just likes to fight. Vegeta NEEDS to win, but he almost never does. Even when he gets to win, like with Golden Frieza, it goes hideously wrong and Goku has to fix it.
I would be so happy with a vegeta win, especially considering his promise to the sayians of u6, he needs this win but as soon as he turned ssb2 and not ultra instinct i knew he wasnt gonna win (tho im irrationally hoping for fusion) no doubt goku will win because i cant see jiren brining back the other universes after his comment about toppo he only cares about his own strength and the people he cares about ( i dont think even think he considers the other pride troopers to be his friends)
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On February 14 2018 23:18 TMG26 wrote:Show nested quote +On February 14 2018 10:50 BigFan wrote:On February 14 2018 10:29 Mohdoo wrote:On February 14 2018 08:23 BigFan wrote:On February 14 2018 07:30 Shock710 wrote:On February 14 2018 02:05 Mohdoo wrote:On February 13 2018 02:07 BigFan wrote:On February 12 2018 15:27 blade55555 wrote:
17 did better against Toppo than Gohan as well (although Gohan's fight against Toppo was brief). Dunno Gohan's not even close to blue imo.
Do I think 17 is at SSB level? From what they've shown he's gotta be close to it. I'm kinda surprised at how much hate this episode is getting, I thought it was really good but oh well I am also easier to please on a show than most people. that was complete bullshit. Sure, Gohan is nowhere close to Blue but so is 17. DBS is trying to spin it as him being close, that's utterly and completely bs. It's one thing to say he's smart and strong but 17 had no business surviving to the end. Freiza makes much more sense for example and even he was demolished by Toppo... Also, what was 17 doing this whole time? He was working in some conservatory. I'm sure fighting villains with guns who even trunks or goten can easily handle gave him such god powers. On a side note, I still liked the episode though the sacrifice at the end felt meaningless since he can be wished back. 17 is not a robot. Dr Gero altered his biochemistry using technology, but he is, at the core, an organic lifeform. The power he had when he was birthed was purely a result of Dr Gero's technology, not training or anything of the sort. Dr Gero gave him fighting knowledge, but he did not learn to fight by growing as a fighter. From that, we can basically say that Dr Gero's technology gives humans such an insane advantage that an average human is significantly stronger than SSJ, which is pretty remarkable. It may be a bit of a stretch, but it is hard to call it anything but canon. Now let's take a look at the sort of power bump Frieza got, since Frieza is pretty similar. Though, unlike 17, Frieza has actually fought and whatnot throughout his life. After 4 months of training, he manages to go from below SSJ to a little bit above Blue. Bonkers. But from what we know, Dr Gero's technology to enhance human physiology is actually a lot better than Frieza's physiology. Now let's look at when Android 17 was resurrected. He said he spent his time training since we last saw him. Krillin and 18 are married on age 770. On age 780, *10 years* later, the tournament of power begins. If we assume Android 17 has only been training for as long as Krillin and 18 are married, or hell, even 5 years less, that is still an insane amount of training time. 17 is more gifted than Frieza, trained for longer than Frieza, and clearly should be much, much strongeor than Gohan. Wtf training isnt a one dimensional increase there is quality to training thats why the hyperbolic time chamber and dr.briefs capsule (with the 100x gravity) was able to push the sayians so far ahead fuck gokus being training all his life and yet there was no increase greater than his during his trip to namek (pre that moment in the show) 17 has being fighting people he can literally flick and kill, at the guys creation he outclasses humans by miles there is like zero effort he needs to kill, maybe some if hes bent on just arresting them but still like nothing he doesnt even need to dodge bullets. Nothing on that island indicates he has had any pressure to train beyond what he was. (And please dont say the fucken animals...) lol you took the words out of my mouth. There was nothing to push 17 at all to even get stronger and Gohan was so far ahead with mystic Gohan. Like, my God, Gohan in mystic form was dominating buu at one point and was the strongest around. Stronger than SSJ3 etc... and 17 can't even scratch that. Even if Gohan went soft, 17 hasn't done much either so at worst and this is like really really underplaying mystic levels, they can be even or Gohan slightly ahead due to how level going down from lack of training. He wasn't training against poachers. He was doing 2 things. He was training and he was protecting animals. Piccolo has shown us the amount of training that can be done totally solo. The idea of self training into insane power isn't new. Keep in mind that Frieza's training partner was incomparably weaker. Honestly, I don't care enough about this to actually argue back and forth about it. Let's just agree to disagree ~ I don't see the problem with 17 getting a lot stronger. He did train for a long time and had potential. Getting to near blue is a bit much. And not appearing when beerus and freeza showed up is also stupid. So much time and he still can't feel ki? In the manga goku doesn't go blue against him.
If we accept that Frieza's power up is acceptable, Android 17's is extremely reasonable. Android 17 physiology blows Frieza's out of the water and trained for way longer. Android 17 has felt no incentive to learn how to sense ki. He has a few select things he cares about and he just tends to that. I think he has avoided reconnecting with people besides 18 because of everything that happened before.
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Freeza's power-up was extraordinarily stupid but now that it's canon we just have to roll with it.
What unreal feats of strength has 17 honestly shown? I haven't seen any.
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EPT
