EPTStar Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - Page 168
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We made a thread specifically for Episode 8 now, let us head over to that one  http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/entertainment/521373-star-wars-episode-viii-the-last-jedi | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On January 04 2016 23:08 Plansix wrote: Flawless script. Flawless. ![[image loading]](http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2015/07/31/22/2AFF883300000578-3181775-image-a-22_1438378328160.jpg) ANH is super stupid. They hid Luke Skywalker by giving him the same last name as his father. Death Star’s flaw: Hole in the side that leads directly to the reactor, very common on battle stations. Can’t be closed either, even after the Imperials figure out the plan. Tractor beam is powered down, no one notices. Apparently Imperials can’t open their own blast doors(also apparently shooting controls disables controls on the other side, who knew?) Storm Troopers wear helmets in their own, enclosed base to make sure that rebels can easily infiltrate it. Rebels are the worst, with all their leadership in one place to be easily blown up. And I love it. But that script is all about style and should never be thought about to hard. That is sort of the joke. Han says "There is always a way to blow these up," and then they talk about how to shut down the big gun. Really their plan was to cripple the base, but it ends up blowing up. But the whole concept of a fighter blowing up a huge battle station by preforming a daring bombing run down a long "trench/hole" is super silly. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Hexe
United States332 Posts
The Starkiller base is derivative, yeah so what. That entire last act is so well shot, when the sun dies out and the world is dark, I think it was beautiful and worth the "gimmick." It made the Lightsabre fight filled with dread. This was a Star Wars where we could actually fall in love with characters again. That tracking shot moving in when Rey and Kylo are deadlocked with his lightsabre sinking in the snow was a better moment than any of the prequel dance fighting. Kylo Ren was afraid her and watching his inner struggles throughout the film was something very cool in a blockbuster at this scale. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
And I appreciated Finns progression more, from someone running from the First Order to someone willing to stand up to the scariest guy in the First Order. Even though he loses that fight, he already won just when he said “Come and get it.” The movie may have a “back to basics” plot, but the character moments | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
Okay, so that's another thing: A base that takes half the energy of a sun to fire a single shot? That's dumb. Like really dumb. But wait, there's more technology questions! Does any of this even make sense? | ||
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ETisME
12840 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
This is the language I expect from a sci-fi world that gives ZERO fucks about science. Love it. Please continue Star Wars, I am enjoying your space fantasy and not caring. I like how it was their main base for like 30 years and they just slowly built it out. That is a cool concept. They should have dropped a line about that in the movie. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On January 04 2016 23:08 Plansix wrote: Flawless script. Flawless. Again, nobody said it was flawless, but certainly better than TFA. Mark Hamill is referencing the dialogues, not the plot. On January 04 2016 23:08 Plansix wrote: ANH is super stupid. They hid Luke Skywalker by giving him the same last name as his father. Death Star’s flaw: Hole in the side that leads directly to the reactor, very common on battle stations. Can’t be closed either, even after the Imperials figure out the plan. Tractor beam is powered down, no one notices. Apparently Imperials can’t open their own blast doors(also apparently shooting controls disables controls on the other side, who knew?) Storm Troopers wear helmets in their own, enclosed base to make sure that rebels can easily infiltrate it. Rebels are the worst, with all their leadership in one place to be easily blown up. If that's what you can come up with, you're pretty much making my point for me that the script of ANH is much less flawed than the script of TFA. 1. Tatooïne is explicitly presented in the movie as a remote planet of little importance, and Luke to be living far from urban centers. While it would obviously have been a better idea to hide him under a different name, the situation he's in makes it extremely unlikely that he would be found -- especially since as viewers we cannot be sure that Skywalker isn't even a frequent surname in the galaxy. 2. Like TheTenthDoc wrote, while that can indeed be seen as a weakness in the plot, at least the information was extremely hard to obtain and the weakness in the structure was discovered by analyzing its full plans. The equivalent plot point in TFA is much weaker. 3. First, it's one tractor beam, probably among many (it's referenced as "Tractor beam 12 (sec. N6)" in the movie itself). Second, the equivalent plot point in TFA is, again, much weaker: this time it's the shield protecting the entire planet that is deactivated without anyone noticing. That shield was a little more important than one tractor beam. Third, Tarkin & Vader actually allow them to escape on purpose, meaning they probably did notice the deactivated tractor beam. 4. I'm not sure what the issue is. We're shown that the blast door mechanism is damaged by shooting in the controls (probably leading to a short-circuit). Hardly a flaw in the script. 5. The movie explicitly shows that their helmets are used for communication. Also, we can suppose wearing the helmet contributes to suppressing individuality among soldiers. In any case, TFA stormtroopers have helmets all the same, meaning that even if you considered this as a flaw (which it isn't) it wouldn't change the comparison between the movies (all the other flaws that TFA has and ANH doesn't remain). 6. We know Yavin IV was the rebellion's main base, not that the entire rebel leadership was on it. In any case, again, the same applies to TFA (except in this case the Resistance should have the benefit of hindsight, making this a weaker copy again). To sum up: does ANH have flaws? Yes. Are its flaws as bad as those of TFA? No. | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 05 2016 00:45 ticklishmusic wrote: So given that the TFA Rebellion had shit-all resources, why didn't they just pack up and move to a new planet? Does it even matter? When suns are being drained and we have sword fighting space wizards, does it matter at all? | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On January 05 2016 00:50 Plansix wrote: Does it even matter? When suns are being drained and we have sword fighting space wizards, does it matter at all? This isn't about the Rebellion evacuating, but I already responded earlier in the thread to your argument that nothing scientific matters because "we have space wizards". To c/p what I wrote: With regards to the science, it is a tired argument that because a movie belongs to the science-fiction/fantasy genre, we shouldn't criticize its scientific/internal consistency aspects because "it's not real anyway", "you can't really go faster than light", "the Force doesn't exist", etc. The truth is that what matters is, as Tolkien argued in On Fairy-Stories, the inner consistency of the imaginary world. Star Wars' physics framework includes the existence of the Force, the possibility to travel FTL through hyperspace, lightsabers with a limited length, etc. The fact that those have no real-world equivalent is not in itself problematic: we accept that they are true in the Star Wars universe, and we then immerse ourselves in the stories told within those parameters. This means that if something else suddenly pops up which completely contradicts or makes no sense with regards to these parameters, it's perfectly normal and legitimate to complain about it. For example, if someone in the Resistance briefing room suddenly whipped out a lamp during the Star killer discussion, rubbed it, got a magic rabbit genie to come out of it, and had him make the FO's planet magically disappear, everyone would be denouncing the ridiculousness of the whole scene. That's because the existence of a magic rabbit genie capable of making wishes come true does not fall within the parameters of the Star Wars universe as they have been defined throughout the movies. A less significant example taken from TFA is the heroes observing the destruction of the Republic planets with their naked eyes from Takodana, which makes absolutely zero sense with regards to how distances and lightspeed have been established to work previously in the Star Wars movies. Last time I checked, in RotJ the Coruscant population did not see the Death Star blow up in the Coruscant sky. You may brush this off and declare "I don't care", but that doesn't make it any less ridiculous. Can you still bend over backwards to try to find an explanation for anything, including a magical rabbit genie? Sure, but you're not fooling anyone. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On January 05 2016 01:10 Plansix wrote: There are parts of the TFA I felt could have been handled better, like how lightspeed was shot and depicted as instant travel. It removed the feeling a “topography” to the galaxy. But the amount that these issues effect someone’s enjoyment of the movie is subjective. I agree on both counts. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6343 Posts
How does Rey know droid-speak? How does anyone know droid-speak? | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Charoisaur
Germany16086 Posts
Except that the movie was well done (good acting, good atmosphere, good action scenes) but I didn't like that the script was nearly copied from ANH and that we had 0 information on the global context of the galaxy (where the fuck is the new republic). Overall 6/10 probably better than E. I-II but worse than the rest. | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On January 05 2016 01:57 Charoisaur wrote: One of the biggest logic holes in TFA (next to Ren vs Rey) is that a small organization like the first order can build something even stronger than the deathstars of the empire for which the empire with all its ressources and hundreds of planets needed years to build it. Just ridicolous. Except that the movie was well done (good acting, good atmosphere, good action scenes) but I didn't like that the script was nearly copied from ANH and that we had 0 information on the global context of the galaxy (where the fuck is the new republic). Overall 6/10 probably better than E. I-II but worse than the rest. Exactly! The movie does not provide any bigger context in which the action is placed. It just focuses on action and on introducing old and new characters (and also foregoing the development of the new characters). One thing that made me also a bit irritated in the movie was that there were some cool shots, but the camera work was too fast. Compare that with Sicario where the director was not afraid to slow down the movie to build tension. Here is just one shot after the other with no stop. For example I would really love if they focused for a couple of second more on x-wings when they are flying over the lake. That is a gorgeous scene. But it just flashed in front of my eyes. The movie needs: 1. The movie (and it follow ups) need more story-telling, more character development. 2. More careful pacing in the key scenes (this is probably more subjective than point 1) | ||
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Roggay
Switzerland6320 Posts
That being said, I really did not feel TFA. The pacing felt off and above all, to me, it lacked a lot of context. Maybe its because I am one of the few that really like all the politic in episode 1-3, but to me, the universe felt way too empty and meaningless in TFA and I learned close-to-nothing about the state of the galaxy and so everything felt really flat. Also, the villains felt... off, almost pathetic and yes I know this is what they are going for with Ren, but even snoke was uninspiring. I probably will need to watch it again to have a better opinion. | ||
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
And on top of that, they exist in an entirely different context. They cannot be compared 1:1. But, yes the Star Wars fantasy about space wizards that is TFA had a better story with less plotholes than that thinking man's SF made by a certain JJ. If you are going to compare it to other movies, at least compare it to it's peers. That bneing said, a lot of the plot of II and III made a lot more sense to me and did more for me than last part of RotJ did. That stuff with the Ewoks was god-awful. Using something that magically just automatically wins the fight for the good guys, that is at old as story-telling. It's called deux ex machina and not necessarily bad writing per se. But you can't do death star II deus ex machina after you already did death star I deus ex machina. And certainly not doing it a third and fourth(?) time. They still have two more movies to go (actually 5). If they think this is good story telling, can we expect it at least two more times? Maybe this time a doomsdayship? We haven't seen that yet. That would be creative. I prefer a less dramatic plot. Hollywood rules dictate that you have to maximize the stakes of the story. So future of the universe. Since this movie was already about the future of the universe, the next ones can't be about the future of some spaceship or base or even a whole planet. So how to put the whole universe at risk without a superweapon? What will they do? | ||
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