On January 04 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote: Mary Sue was sort of a useless term before TFA. Rarely used due the requirement that the character be a author avatar, the character make no mistakes never fail at any task. It's return in reference to Rey is hysterical because if she is a Mary Sue, so is Luke. But nerds get weird when girls turn out to be heroes too.
Yes, it's obviously because nerds can't handle a strong independent woman and not for any other reason such as bad writing... Isn't it hard to live in a world where you have to explain everything with either race, gender or sexual orientation?
Then why isn't Luke a Mary Sue?
Luke needs to be saved by other people in several different occasions (Obi-Wan from the Tusken raiders and in the cantina, Leia once they free her, Han Solo during the Death Star attack). He is shown to be clueless about various things, and other characters chastise him for it (Han in the cockpit of the Falcon). He does not speak every language in the galaxy. He's much less of a Mary Sue than Rey.
But still a Mary Sue by the standard set by people claiming Rey. A character who has skills and abilities they have no buisness having. Luke can't be an ace pilot, he is a farm boy.
It was established that Luke piloted (small) ships prior to joining the Alliance. Regardless, I just explained why Luke was less of a Mary Sue than Rey.
And they established that Rey is a good melee fighter, which is why she was able not lose instantly against Kylo. And only beat him after regaining her focus and using the force. She spends most of that fight running from Kylo.
Rey nails much more than simply being a good melee fighter in the movie. I explained to you why Luke is clearly less of a Mary Sue than Rey. If you don't want to actually address my points, no need to reply.
That doesn't mean Luke can't be a Mary Sue, nor that Rey deserves the title of being a Mary Sue.
On January 04 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote: Mary Sue was sort of a useless term before TFA. Rarely used due the requirement that the character be a author avatar, the character make no mistakes never fail at any task. It's return in reference to Rey is hysterical because if she is a Mary Sue, so is Luke. But nerds get weird when girls turn out to be heroes too.
Yes, it's obviously because nerds can't handle a strong independent woman and not for any other reason such as bad writing... Isn't it hard to live in a world where you have to explain everything with either race, gender or sexual orientation?
Then why isn't Luke a Mary Sue?
Luke needs to be saved by other people in several different occasions (Obi-Wan from the Tusken raiders and in the cantina, Leia once they free her, Han Solo during the Death Star attack). He is shown to be clueless about various things, and other characters chastise him for it (Han in the cockpit of the Falcon). He does not speak every language in the galaxy. He's much less of a Mary Sue than Rey.
But still a Mary Sue by the standard set by people claiming Rey. A character who has skills and abilities they have no buisness having. Luke can't be an ace pilot, he is a farm boy.
It was established that Luke piloted (small) ships prior to joining the Alliance. Regardless, I just explained why Luke was less of a Mary Sue than Rey.
And they established that Rey is a good melee fighter, which is why she was able not lose instantly against Kylo. And only beat him after regaining her focus and using the force. She spends most of that fight running from Kylo.
Rey nails much more than simply being a good melee fighter in the movie. I explained to you why Luke is clearly less of a Mary Sue than Rey. If you don't want to actually address my points, no need to reply.
That doesn't mean Luke can't be a Mary Sue, nor that Rey deserves the title of being a Mary Sue.
I know. I didn't say Rey was a Mary Sue, just that she's more of a Mary Sue than Luke. I was disputing the idea that they would be on an equal footing with regards to how much of Mary Sues they are.
On January 04 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote: Mary Sue was sort of a useless term before TFA. Rarely used due the requirement that the character be a author avatar, the character make no mistakes never fail at any task. It's return in reference to Rey is hysterical because if she is a Mary Sue, so is Luke. But nerds get weird when girls turn out to be heroes too.
Yes, it's obviously because nerds can't handle a strong independent woman and not for any other reason such as bad writing... Isn't it hard to live in a world where you have to explain everything with either race, gender or sexual orientation?
Then why isn't Luke a Mary Sue?
Luke needs to be saved by other people in several different occasions (Obi-Wan from the Tusken raiders and in the cantina, Leia once they free her, Han Solo during the Death Star attack). He is shown to be clueless about various things, and other characters chastise him for it (Han in the cockpit of the Falcon). He does not speak every language in the galaxy. He's much less of a Mary Sue than Rey.
But still a Mary Sue by the standard set by people claiming Rey. A character who has skills and abilities they have no buisness having. Luke can't be an ace pilot, he is a farm boy.
It was established that Luke piloted (small) ships prior to joining the Alliance. Regardless, I just explained why Luke was less of a Mary Sue than Rey.
And they established that Rey is a good melee fighter, which is why she was able not lose instantly against Kylo. And only beat him after regaining her focus and using the force. She spends most of that fight running from Kylo.
Real life isnt an action RPG, where if you put point into 'melee weapons' you magically know how to use everything from a dagger to a claymore. Being good with an axe doesn't make you competent with a scythe, yes, SW isn't real life but standard martial arts logic should apply. Using a staff is completely different from using a sword, depth perception, reach, grip, stance/footwork, cutting, blocking ect. are very different and take years to become competent.
I said before in this thread, I hold a second dan in kendo, give me any two handed sword and I'll feel very comfortable with what I am doing. Give me two one handed swords and I'll be completely out of my comfort zone, and it would be silly to say I would be a 'master' staff user.
edit: btw here is an interesting ESPN documentary about lightsaber duals and how kendo was used as a base.
Star Wars lightsaber fighting was made up on the spot. That stuntman just made it up as they went along.
Using two hands on a shortbladed one-hand hilted weapons doesn't make any sense.
If you look at what kendo is today, it doesn't make sense to fight that way in an unarmoured 1vs1 duel. It is inferior against a rapier, for example.
Also, lightsaber fighting is superdangerous. Even in normal swordfights, a double kill would be very common. No need to attack if you aren't sure your injured opponent can still fight on. Once you have delivered a lethal attack, he can skill kill you as you are defenseless. Not like the movies try to relflect that type of fight dynamics, but it does change how offensive or defensive one fights.
Now that I think about it, a stab at the enemy's hand or even his hilt would be safest. If you miss you can still parry. If you hit, you win. No need to go for a lethal strike. And that's one reason to go for a thrust. You can easily run your opponent through. If you hit a slash, your opponent might still fight on and in fact kill you as you are defenseless from your succesful attack. A lightsaber slashing would mean it would sever anything it hits with ease.
Wild attacks like we see wouldn't be needed. They are very dangerous. Ignoring the attacks they throw all have to miss because the actors can't be hit by a prop if they mess up their choreography, you can just do a small dodge, step in and finish the fight. For a slash espeially, once you are just inside stabbing reach, only requires a small dodge to avoid.
@emulator About 6 years. Got to second dan then university got in the way.
It really is fascinating how regardless of gender or age all that matters is skill in the end, really humbling. The Japanese embassy helped us out one year and sent a 7. dan sensei from Japan to stay in Serbia for a year and make sure we were on the right track. He looked like a stereotypical asian tourist grandpa, 70 years old, khaki pants pulled up to his arms, you would think he was the most non-threatening person you've ever seen.
But when he puts his armor on and stands in front of you... of boy, I used to think dragon ball z auras were bullshit but you could feel his presence, you just got this feeling you were in front of a bull instead of a 70 year old man. Now, by that time I was in my early 20's, had my 1. dan and was training for and making it far into national level tournaments. But all measures I was taller, bigger, 50 years younger, could run circles around the guy for days, extremely competitive... yet I could not touch the guy.
He literally read every single move I was about to make and barely moving more than he needed to deflected everything I threw at him and wiped the floor with me.
When talking about swords experience is everything. I trained for a long time, things that look fast from the outside to someone just starting out looks like its going in slow motion for me because my perception has changed, because I have done the same thing over and over and over until my brain knows exactly whats going on. Yet I've been shat on by 70 year olds, pregnant women, and so on because I look like I'm in slow motion for them.
Which is why Rey being even semi-competent in a sword dual goes against all reason. You can't just learn how to parry against someone that has even a mediocre education with swords, Kylo Ren spent time in the jedi academy with Skywalker, he spent a lot of time with his ligthsaber, getting a feeling for its weight distribution and reach if nothing else. Its just such a stretch from how we have seen the other jedi's in the series get acquainted with the force. The only way it would make sense is if she is some reincarnated first force user that is like a master of all sides or something.
You can't just close your eyes and 'oh the voices in my head are telling me how to clutch-shift' the first time you sit in a manual car.
edit: @trulojucreathrma.com
Of course it would be impractical for lightsaber duels to be in any style that we know of, most swords have handguards and styles are based off of protecting your hands. Lunging at you opponent would be a big no-no though, all they would need to do is tap your lightsaber aside and you are wide open.
On January 04 2016 07:51 zeo wrote: You can't just close your eyes and 'oh the voices in my head are telling me how to clutch-shift' the first time you sit in a manual car.
Problem is that this is sort of exactly what the Force does.
As I always say, Star Trek style criticism of Star Wars is not really the proper way to do things. It's a fantasy movie and it needs to be given significant leeway with facts to work, same as the OT.
On January 04 2016 07:51 zeo wrote: You can't just close your eyes and 'oh the voices in my head are telling me how to clutch-shift' the first time you sit in a manual car.
Problem is that this is sort of exactly what the Force does.
As I always say, Star Trek style criticism of Star Wars is not really the proper way to do things. It's a fantasy movie and it needs to be given significant leeway with facts to work, same as the OT.
No it doesn't. The force can't teach you how to use the force. The force can't teach you how to fly a spaceship or fight with a lightsaber. Throughout all the SW movies people were taught how to tap into the force, and taught how to use the force in certain ways (force pull/push/crush). The force was always some higher state of 'something', like a river that you tap into thats been there since the dawn of time.
Why would the force know how to fly a spaceship? How would it understand the concept of a sword fight or what you have to do in it and instill that knowledge in a human? VII would imply the force is using Rey instead of Rey using the force.
On January 04 2016 07:51 zeo wrote: You can't just close your eyes and 'oh the voices in my head are telling me how to clutch-shift' the first time you sit in a manual car.
Problem is that this is sort of exactly what the Force does.
As I always say, Star Trek style criticism of Star Wars is not really the proper way to do things. It's a fantasy movie and it needs to be given significant leeway with facts to work, same as the OT.
No it doesn't. The force can't teach you how to use the force. The force can't teach you how to fly a spaceship or fight with a lightsaber. Throughout all the SW movies people were taught how to tap into the force, and taught how to use the force in certain ways (force pull/push/crush). The force was always some higher state of 'something', like a river that you tap into thats been there since the dawn of time.
Why would the force know how to fly a spaceship? How would it understand the concept of a sword fight or what you have to do in it and instill that knowledge in a human? VII would imply the force is using Rey instead of Rey using the force.
Did you just put limits on the magical energy that is governed by good and evil? The super vague, spiritual force that lets people see the future and shot lightining? I'm pretty sure the force can guide someone through a sword fight if it can help people aim torpedos.
You know how Obi-Wan taught Luke to deflect blaster bolts? He blocks his vision and says "Stretch out with your feelings". This is how it works in Star Wars.
The CGI doesn't cut it. Couldn't they just have used a live actor?
And his blown up size just feels like an arbitrary gimmick, making those scenes stick out from the rest of the movie in a really bad way.
To top it off, he just looks way, way too much like Gollum. Which, with Andy Serkis playing the part, makes his appearance feel like a weird joke-crossover to LotR. At the same time, the CGI combined with the ambiance of that huge room also gives the impression of a totally non sequitur nod to the navigator room in Prometheus. Too many strange design choices here.
And then there's of course the name. "Snoke", wtf? I don't give a crap if he was called that in some of the books. The name is simply stupid. Sounds anything but evil, like a cartoon dog or something. It would have been a fitting name for that blue flying thing that initially owns Anakin in Ep. I. Or Jar-Jar.
JJ, please. This dude is supposed to be the most evil character in the whole movie. It's an important role. Look at The Emperor. That's how you do it. This is shit. The Snoke scenes stung my eye like a freaking toothpick jammed all the way in to the optic nerve. In an otherwise pretty cool movie, as far beyond Episodes I-III as anyone could have realistically hoped.
On January 04 2016 07:51 zeo wrote: You can't just close your eyes and 'oh the voices in my head are telling me how to clutch-shift' the first time you sit in a manual car.
Problem is that this is sort of exactly what the Force does.
As I always say, Star Trek style criticism of Star Wars is not really the proper way to do things. It's a fantasy movie and it needs to be given significant leeway with facts to work, same as the OT.
No it doesn't. The force can't teach you how to use the force. The force can't teach you how to fly a spaceship or fight with a lightsaber. Throughout all the SW movies people were taught how to tap into the force, and taught how to use the force in certain ways (force pull/push/crush). The force was always some higher state of 'something', like a river that you tap into thats been there since the dawn of time.
Why would the force know how to fly a spaceship? How would it understand the concept of a sword fight or what you have to do in it and instill that knowledge in a human? VII would imply the force is using Rey instead of Rey using the force.
I dare say the force taught Yoda how to "force ghost" after death.
On January 04 2016 09:01 AlgeriaT wrote: So does anyone besides me hate Snoke?
The CGI doesn't cut it. Couldn't they just have used a live actor?
And his blown up size just feels like an arbitrary gimmick, making those scenes stick out from the rest of the movie in a really bad way.
To top it off, he just looks way, way too much like Gollum. Which, with Andy Serkis playing the part, makes his appearance feel like a weird joke-crossover to LotR. At the same time, the CGI combined with the ambiance of that huge room also gives the impression of a totally non sequitur nod to the navigator room in Prometheus. Too many strange design choices here.
And then there's of course the name. "Snoke", wtf? I don't give a crap if he was called that in some of the books. The name is simply stupid. Sounds anything but evil, like a cartoon dog or something. It would have been a fitting name for that blue flying thing that initially owns Anakin in Ep. I. Or Jar-Jar.
JJ, please. This dude is supposed to be the most evil character in the whole movie. It's an important role. Look at The Emperor. That's how you do it. This is shit. The Snoke scenes stung my eye like a freaking toothpick jammed all the way in to the optic nerve. In an otherwise pretty cool movie, as far beyond Episodes I-III as anyone could have realistically hoped.
Am I alone in my nerd rage here?
I'm withholding judgment until we see him play a bigger role in the next movie(s).
On January 04 2016 09:01 AlgeriaT wrote: So does anyone besides me hate Snoke?
The CGI doesn't cut it. Couldn't they just have used a live actor?
And his blown up size just feels like an arbitrary gimmick, making those scenes stick out from the rest of the movie in a really bad way.
To top it off, he just looks way, way too much like Gollum. Which, with Andy Serkis playing the part, makes his appearance feel like a weird joke-crossover to LotR. At the same time, the CGI combined with the ambiance of that huge room also gives the impression of a totally non sequitur nod to the navigator room in Prometheus. Too many strange design choices here.
And then there's of course the name. "Snoke", wtf? I don't give a crap if he was called that in some of the books. The name is simply stupid. Sounds anything but evil, like a cartoon dog or something. It would have been a fitting name for that blue flying thing that initially owns Anakin in Ep. I. Or Jar-Jar.
JJ, please. This dude is supposed to be the most evil character in the whole movie. It's an important role. Look at The Emperor. That's how you do it. This is shit. The Snoke scenes stung my eye like a freaking toothpick jammed all the way in to the optic nerve. In an otherwise pretty cool movie, as far beyond Episodes I-III as anyone could have realistically hoped.
Am I alone in my nerd rage here?
I'm with you on that one. I am still scratching my had why the hell they make his hologram (or whatever it was) so huge. Maybe so we understand that "this is a really bad guy who is in charge"? And yeah, he really does look like the navigator from Prometheus, that was my first thought I saw Snoke. Finally, the same is anything but memorable. I could call a pet with this name.
Two additional really disappointing parts: 1. Kylo Ren was badass as long as he was wearing a mask. As soon as he took it off he, his character quickly went down the shitter. We saw a young Severus Snape from Harry Potter who is nothing but a clueless teenager. He is just pathetic. So in the end we have a movie about two completely clueless teenagers (Kylo Ren and Rey)
2. Rey character. No development. She is goddamn best in everything. Incredible pilot, incredible mechanic, stronger in force without any training than Kylo Ren, better in lightsaber duels than Kylo Ren. She just say "oh, force", and then beats the crap out of Kylo Ren. Are you for real!? Where is her development as a character?
Luke was trained by Obi-Wan and Yoda. And he progressed so fast because he was exceptionally gifted. Other Jedi are trained since young kids. And here we have a character who suddenly wields the force with no training whatsoever. It feels like they wanted to make a cooler version of young Luke and they way overdid it.
My verdict: Nice cinematography, decent acting, Micheal-Bay type of a plot, and lack of originality in every aspect.
there's a precedent for the large hologram set in Empire, so I'm assuming Snooki, i mean Snookey, i mean... well, you get it (i'm not a fan of the name either) will be more "normal sized". That being said, his character was really ever going to be ancillary in this ep, so the next is probably going to go in depth with Ren and Snoke and his turn to the dark side fully.
I still think the best way you can have a good villain in the next movie is if Rey fucks shit up, kills Snoke, proclaims herself Empress and becomes the antagonist of a reformed Kylo for the third film. I'm not sure how else you set up a Rey/Kylo duel where the victory (a) goes to the goodies and (b) is a satisfying overcoming of an obstacle. Yes, yes, Kylo was injured, but we've still seen him lose to her the first time she touched a lightsaber, so unless a huge deal is made about how much stronger he now is, it's not going to be great if he's the dark lord the hero defeats.
Of course, there are a few ways that Kylo could be made to be seen as a real threat again, or we could have another villain, or maybe we're done with lightsaber battles. . .meh. Two films to go, I guess. We'll see how they work it.
On January 04 2016 09:42 FuzzyJAM wrote: I still think the best way you can have a good villain in the next movie is if Rey fucks shit up, kills Snoke, proclaims herself Empress and becomes the antagonist of a reformed Kylo for the third film. I'm not sure how else you set up a Rey/Kylo duel where the victory (a) goes to the goodies and (b) is a satisfying overcoming of an obstacle. Yes, yes, Kylo was injured, but we've still seen him lose to her the first time she touched a lightsaber, so unless a huge deal is made about how much stronger he now is, it's not going to be great if he's the dark lord the hero defeats.
Of course, there are a few ways that Kylo could be made to be seen as a real threat again, or we could have another villain, or maybe we're done with lightsaber battles. . .meh. Two films to go, I guess. We'll see how they work it.
For me the story has been already fatally affected. Her mastering force within 15-30 min of real time in a movie is just ridiculous. That was the final straw. I found her character super irritating from the beginning but the ending was just too much for me to bare.
The problem is that in the movie is no coherent story progression. It really feels everything is glued together just for the sake of showing u a new world, bringing old characters in, some "cool fights". Rey's character is just the clearest evidence of that. JJ Abrams should have played KOTOR I and II to learn how to write a cool story in SW world.
She did not master the force. She pulls off two tricks and wins a sword fight. If you watch the film, she is in awe she pulled it off. People learned to use the force on their own before Jedi.
EPT
