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We made a thread specifically for Episode 8 now, let us head over to that one  http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/entertainment/521373-star-wars-episode-viii-the-last-jedi | ||
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
On January 04 2016 03:35 CobaltBlu wrote: I'm not criticizing ANH nor do I think Luke is a Mary Sue character. If you think I think you were criticizing ANH, then all of this is going way over your head. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6303 Posts
I went to see VII with my girlfriend (she has never seen a SW movie before no matter how much I nagged her to watch them with me) and she really hated Rey, personally I didn't really think anyone would like her tbh. Especially that whole 'don't touch me I can run on my own, DONT TOUCH ME', don't know if its her acting or the script but she comes off really anti-social and unnatural in the movie. Which is kind of understandable I guess, she lived alone most of her life, but still... she knows how to fix a space ship, that implies some kind of education or interaction with people that know the part names.... Fin on the other hand is much more likeable character. Though how he has a personality after being brainwashed since birth to hate the rebels and listen to orders is a much less believable than the Rey back-story. I said earlier in the thread that if they kill off that character it would make this movie worst than Phantom, my logic being that if they went through with it that would mean an unimaginative shit tier writing staff. I just don't see how someone could say how this movie is better than PM. Give it a year, let the DVD come out... people loved Phantom Menace when it came out, but once the hype settled it started coming apart. edit: Love BB-8 though! | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On January 04 2016 03:36 trulojucreathrma.com wrote: He didn't get an injury that a bacta tank or some plot magic can't heal. No reason to say that Kylo in Ep.VIII has to be weaker than in TFA. Don't know why it is relevant. Don't know if you mean it counters or supports my arguments. So no idea why you are so surprised/annoyed I don't mention his injuries. They don't matter for the next movie. All they do is show Rey messed him up and give the opportunity to do make them disabling injuries in the next movie. If they don't want the injuries to matter for the next movie, they don't have to. Same with Finn's Strongly doubt both of them be wheelchair bound in movie VIII. And here plot magic is allowed, because no one wants to see them both wheelchair-bound. You misunderstood me. I meant that you ignored the fact that Rey won over a (both physically and mentally) deeply wounded Kylo. Which makes your observation, that their future battles will have no weight to them, because Rey already won a duel and she will be stronger next time. | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On January 04 2016 03:37 zeo wrote: Guess I learnt the term Mary Sue today. I went to see VII with my girlfriend (she has never seen a SW movie before no matter how much I nagged her to watch them with me) and she really hated Rey, personally I didn't really think anyone would like her tbh. Especially that whole 'don't touch me I can run on my own, DONT TOUCH ME', don't know if its her acting or the script but she comes off really anti-social and unnatural in the movie. Which is kind of understandable I guess, she lived alone most of her life, but still... she knows how to fix a space ship, that implies some kind of education or interaction with people that know the part names.... You know you can be anti-social but still interact with people, right? Just because he talked about the Millenium Falcon and its upgrades with the guy who made those changes, does not mean it happened over a lovely tea session which Rey enjoyed thoroughly. It was also shown that Rey is alone there, and the way she copes with it is her imagination. Rebel doll in her house, pretending to be a Rebel pilot and basically just daydreaming through her days after she finished with scavenging. | ||
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
Why do you think it is a story trope for the protagonist to lose against the antagonist first? Why isn't it a movie trope that a lead beats the same bad guy 3x in a row, only then the story ends happily? Think about that. The moment you get that, we can have a debate. If Rey's character flaw is really that she is antisocial, can't connect with out people, can't show empathy, then that is going to go really bad for episode VIII. Even on this site 'nerd' is an insult. Go to a children's playground and you'll quickly learn that the insults they think cut deepest are 'autist' and 'loser'. People are going to be so mad if they ruin this strong female lead by making a huge scratch of antisocial or schizoid on the flawless ruby she is now. Odds of that happening: 0. They aren't going to bet 200 million on the audience accepting their attempts to push emancipation of people with antisocial mental disorder or Asperger's or whatever. Pretty sure that at Disney they now already learned from audience feedback that they need to make her more emphatic/lovable, since they succeeded at making her strong. If they also want to go and make her feminine, maybe or maybe not. But if she fails at something because she is antisocial, that won't fly at all. So even if you got those vibes from her, and I can understand that you would, it can't be why she isn't a Mary Sue in VIII. Apparently, she had no friends. Or we never see them. If anything she is antisocial because she was alone on that planet, surrounded by people she couldn't trust. Surely they will make her more social and lovable in VIII. I have no doubts. I expect another female she can bond with. And I think her romance interest, there will be one 90%, will not be Finn. Maybe it has to wait until movie IV but it could be Poe. | ||
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zeo
Serbia6303 Posts
On January 04 2016 03:40 Plansix wrote: It's the "I don't need you to save me," line. Rey establishes very quickly she can handle herself. And it's funny because why would you hold hands like running? Eh, it seemed really forced and unnatural. One thing I forgot to mention, loved the lightsaber battles. Much, much better than in the prequels. I trained kendo for about 6 years and in my opinion this is a much more accurate, and more natural sword fight. Though those mini lightsabers/guard things are still the stupidest thing I've ever seen in any SW movie it still doesn't take away from the fight choreography. edit: definitely the highlight of the movie along with BB-8. The characters are just really pulling the movie down. | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On January 04 2016 03:47 trulojucreathrma.com wrote: Didn't I already preempt that? Even if she beat Kylo when he was cuffed and blindfolded, she is still going to go and fight the same guy in the next movie. Why do you think it is a story trope for the protagonist to lose against the antagonist first? Why isn't it a movie trope that a lead beats the same bad guy 3x in a row, only then the story ends happily? Think about that. The moment you get that, we can have a debate. So, if I understand you correctly, you both hate the unoriginality of the movie (plot copied from ANH) and the originality of the movie (protagonist shown victorious already in the first episode of a trilogy). But the thing is, you don't know for sure how their arcs will continue. It's entirely possible that Kylo kills Luke in the next episode, which would hint that he is set up to kill his mother in the third, thus completing the circle, while Rey is off killing the Knights of Ren left and right and possibly having an encounter with Snoke himself, where he shows her the power of the dark side. Sure, that's just one possibility out of the many, but I would be surprised if they made Rey lose in the next movie, and then ultimately win the BO3 in the ninth one. If they are really going to make them fight 2 more times, then make it so that they switch sides or something. On January 04 2016 03:47 trulojucreathrma.com wrote: Apparently, she had no friends. Or we never see them. If anything she is antisocial because she was alone on that planet, surrounded by people she couldn't trust. Surely they will make her more social and lovable in VIII. I have no doubts. I expect another female she can bond with. And I think her romance interest, there will be one 90%, will not be Finn. Maybe it has to wait until movie IV but it could be Poe. ReyxPhasma confirmed! | ||
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trulojucreathrma.com
United States327 Posts
You can make happen whatever you want to in the next movie, if you are the person who gets to decide that. But not everything you can put in has the same meaning. But not everything you can come up with has the same level of tension. Her next challenge should be a bigger one than the one she faced now. If you think a trained Rey fighting Ren's sidekicks is a bigger challenge, go ahead and think that. I just don't agree. I never said she won't have reasons to kill Kylo. The question is if killing Kylo will develop her character. I say no it won't. She already beat him. Whatever that did for her character development already happened. Beating Kylo again won't change who she is. That they copied the plot is a whole different debate. Obviously the movie has no originality. What movie today has? Even the original trilogy barely got made because it was too original. I have no problems with that. If you want original storytelling, you don't watch movies, period. Doesn't mean you still can't have both good and bad writing. | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
Still, I don't think that you are in the majority when you say a Rey vs Kylo rematch would not be interesting. For all we know, Rey could've just as easily lose their first duel if Kylo was healthy, as she eventually won it. Add some malicious Sith navy seal training to Kylo's strength in the next movie, plus some flashbacks, where whcich shows that he is capable of being an absolute monster when he's agitated and not donating litres of blood to snowfields and I think his badassery is set. No harm is done if they clash again after that, and the movie does not have to lead up to that point, it does not have to revolve around "omg, when do they fight again?!". Snooke was not shown shaken at all after being informed that they are losing the Starkiller base, so I bet there are some huge mysteries going on with the First Order and Snooke, Rey's arc can still benefit from defeating Kylo, because she will have to choose whether to kill him or not, and I read that in the novelization, she was tempted to finish him off, most likely by Snooke, so no doubt Snooke wants her for himself. And there's the rule of two, which means Snooke might not want Kylo anymore. Kylo and the general already hate each other. Conclusion? Kylo will peace the fuck out with his knights, form a third fraction, and in episode IX, he and Rey will fight alongside against Snooke. You heard it here first. Also, they can be relatives which would make this opposition a bit more interesting. EDIT: And I've just been helped to realize that Kylo not only saved Rey's life, it was most likely him who put her on Jakku. Man, episode VIII is set up for some serious feel-train. :'( | ||
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palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
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palexhur
Colombia730 Posts
On January 04 2016 02:15 Volband wrote: Good. Please, keep using it from now on, and in 10 years time, whenever a character in a movie does something cool, like shooting a bad guy, half of the audience will go "omfg, another Mary Sue... I should've known. They are everywhere!!!" Lol I wont use shit because you said to me, but keep coming ........ just figure out what the dots are for ,hf. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 04 2016 05:07 palexhur wrote: They are going to make Ren OP, it is the only way to solve that shitty OP Rey in episode VII, like Dragon ball Z , you have seen these two making things that not other have done in SW universe, and without serious training, so once they are trained, maybe they are going to throw spaceships to each other. Or she will be a talented Jedi apprentice on the run from the first order and the Knights of Ren. And there will be some other plot going on as well for Finn and Poe to be involved with. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On January 04 2016 03:18 Plansix wrote: But still a Mary Sue by the standard set by people claiming Rey. A character who has skills and abilities they have no buisness having. Luke can't be an ace pilot, he is a farm boy. It was established that Luke piloted (small) ships prior to joining the Alliance. Regardless, I just explained why Luke was less of a Mary Sue than Rey. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On January 04 2016 05:18 kwizach wrote: It was established that Luke piloted (small) ships prior to joining the Alliance. Regardless, I just explained why Luke was less of a Mary Sue than Rey. And they established that Rey is a good melee fighter, which is why she was able not lose instantly against Kylo. And only beat him after regaining her focus and using the force. She spends most of that fight running from Kylo. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On January 04 2016 05:22 Plansix wrote: And they established that Rey is a good melee fighter, which is why she was able not lose instantly against Kylo. And only beat him after regaining her focus and using the force. She spends most of that fight running from Kylo. B...b...but that doesn't count because they didn't tell us, they only showed it before!  edit: also people talking about the general characters progression and how beating kylo wouldn't be important anymore. MAYBE Kylo beating Rey will be the development in the end. Maybe the story will be a lot different than people assume at this point. And even if that is not the case, there still are quite a lot possibilities to make it quite meaningful, keeping the same old dramatic structure isn't necessary to develop a working storyline. On January 04 2016 05:41 Volband wrote: I was just trying to help you to become even more of an embodiment of the senseless, rage-driven fella. It would be great if the likes of you would start misusing terms like Mary Sue, so it wouldn't even be needed to correct you, because everyone could just add 1+1 together based on your posts that you are just hoarding all kinds of shit together, because you just can't stand the existence of TFA, so you take anything you can. Basically you are your own parody, but don't keep it up because I said so, I'm sure you would've done it anyway. Yep biggest shitposter in this thread, not sure if that's because of his general attitude or something else though. Just ignore it. | ||
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Volband
Hungary6034 Posts
On January 04 2016 05:10 palexhur wrote: Lol I wont use shit because you said to me, but keep coming ........ just figure out what the dots are for ,hf. I was just trying to help you to become even more of an embodiment of the senseless, rage-driven fella. It would be great if the likes of you would start misusing terms like Mary Sue, so it wouldn't even be needed to correct you, because everyone could just add 1+1 together based on your posts that you are just hoarding all kinds of shit together, because you just can't stand the existence of TFA, so you take anything you can. Basically you are your own parody, but don't keep it up because I said so, I'm sure you would've done it anyway. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On January 04 2016 05:22 Plansix wrote: And they established that Rey is a good melee fighter, which is why she was able not lose instantly against Kylo. And only beat him after regaining her focus and using the force. She spends most of that fight running from Kylo. Rey nails much more than simply being a good melee fighter in the movie. I explained to you why Luke is clearly less of a Mary Sue than Rey. If you don't want to actually address my points, no need to reply. | ||
TheEmulator
28092 Posts
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zeo
Serbia6303 Posts
On January 04 2016 05:22 Plansix wrote: And they established that Rey is a good melee fighter, which is why she was able not lose instantly against Kylo. And only beat him after regaining her focus and using the force. She spends most of that fight running from Kylo. Real life isnt an action RPG, where if you put point into 'melee weapons' you magically know how to use everything from a dagger to a claymore. Being good with an axe doesn't make you competent with a scythe, yes, SW isn't real life but standard martial arts logic should apply. Using a staff is completely different from using a sword, depth perception, reach, grip, stance/footwork, cutting, blocking ect. are very different and take years to become competent. I said before in this thread, I hold a second dan in kendo, give me any two handed sword and I'll feel very comfortable with what I am doing. Give me two one handed swords and I'll be completely out of my comfort zone, and it would be silly to say I would be a 'master' staff user. edit: btw here is an interesting ESPN documentary about lightsaber duals and how kendo was used as a base. | ||
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