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On January 04 2016 01:39 trulojucreathrma.com wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2016 01:34 Volband wrote:
I want statistics about how many people googled Mary Sue after TFA and started to include it in their dictionary. If people think Rey is a Mary Sue, then it won't need much time for that term to lose all of its meaning. What's her flaw?
Her self-confidence nearly killed her friend. She'd rather went back to her shithole home to keep dreaming for a better life, instead of actually accepting a job offer from one of the most famous guy in th galaxy, and start doing something productive instead of just surviving from day to day until she dies. The first time she faces a challenge where she was not in imminent danger, she not only ran away from it, she left her companions behind, which eventually led to her abduction, which could have been avoided if she at least not leave on her own.
To be Mary Sue it takes, or at least should take more than being young, talented and not a complete jackass. Yes, Rey is one of the protagonists in a space fairy tale, of course she is going to be some kind of a role-model for people, just like every single protagonist in such movies. Even the Han-Solo type of "badass" protagonists are filled with an unrealistic amount of good qualities. It's how it is. If you want a real Mary Sue, you should check out a full-paragon run Shepard in Mass Effect. That Shepard is basically the best person in the entire world. Need the best soldier ever? There he is. Need to solve inter-galactic troubles? Done, decades of hate between races just solved. An inner trouble rising within a nation he barely knew about? No problem, he makes everyone happy. You are traveling with a team of different species and personalities? It's fine, they ALL look up to you, and you just know exactly what to tell them to ease their minds.
I think the biggest indicator of a Mary Sue is that they always happen to know what's morally right. Imagine a scene, where they argue in the Resistance base about something, and this young girl who lived her life in a godforsaken desert planet steps out, gives a speech about courage and what not, and it convinces everyone that we need to stand together, because this girl just figured out something a bunch of military officers with decades of experience could not. That's a Mary Sue, and not taking out some random thugs, or a nearly-dying, mentally unstable, possibly not even Sith fighter. Yes, flying the MF is overall still rather unbelievable (unless she turns out to be a Skywalker), but that's a different story.
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On January 04 2016 02:01 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2016 01:34 Volband wrote:Oh, the cringe of 9gag, where people use or pretend to be kids in hopes to somehow strengthen their opinion. "I'm only 10 years old but I think TFA lacked depth, and tried to cover it with action scenes. I was much more interested in the politics than some fancy X-Wing action. Am I the only one ????!!!!!!" or "I brought my 10 years old kid with me to watch TFA in the movies. I did not like it, but tried my best not to show it to him. After the movie, he grabbed me by the arm and said: dad, this movie was terrible. I want to go home and rewatch the OT instead, because it's just so much better." *Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh* Just... don't. On January 04 2016 01:33 trulojucreathrma.com wrote:
Rey being trained and mind-wiped, that I estimate 20/80 against. Makes sense, but not very likely because the things it fixes aren't seen as problems. More likely Rey is just a Mary Sue. That's just needed because we can't have fumbling panicked people today in Hollywood blockbusters. Everyone the audience has to care for is already overly perfect.They already want Finn to suddenly be a bad-ass. If he can do what he can, what can a force sensitive future Jedi do? I want statistics about how many people googled Mary Sue after TFA and started to include it in their dictionary. If people think Rey is a Mary Sue, then it won't need much time for that term to lose all of its meaning. I just googled the term and She is a Mary Sue in Chaper VII.
Good. Please, keep using it from now on, and in 10 years time, whenever a character in a movie does something cool, like shooting a bad guy, half of the audience will go "omfg, another Mary Sue... I should've known. They are everywhere!!!"
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Mary Sue was sort of a useless term before TFA. Rarely used due the requirement that the character be a author avatar, the character make no mistakes never fail at any task. So people would talk about "level of Mary Sue" and it was pretty dumb. It's return in reference to Rey is hysterical because if she is a Mary Sue, so is Luke. But nerds get weird when girls turn out to be heroes too.
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On January 04 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:
Mary Sue was sort of a useless term before TFA. Rarely used due the requirement that the character be a author avatar, the character make no mistakes never fail at any task. It's return in reference to Rey is hysterical because if she is a Mary Sue, so is Luke. But nerds get weird when girls turn out to be heroes too.
Yes, it's obviously because nerds can't handle a strong independent woman and not for any other reason such as bad writing... Isn't it hard to live in a world where you have to explain everything with either race, gender or sexual orientation?
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Why you need to be a complete jackas?
For a 'Mary Sue' you have to,
1) Be fanfiction. Check.
2) Be female. Check.
3) Be flawless. Check.
4) One-upping all the old leads. Check.
The main requirement for a 'Mary Sue' is it to be fanfiction, which is what TFA is.
She is only female because of the original 'Mary Sue'. You can call a male fanfic character a 'Mary Sue' if you want to.
She is already great at most things she is doing. Does she really need training or need to go through stuff? She is basically a huge question mark with a boatton of natural talent.
Bringing in, nerds, strong female leads, feminism, that's just character assassination. Anyway, weren't you guys warned not to talk about feminism?
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On January 04 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:
It's return in reference to Rey is hysterical because if she is a Mary Sue, so is Luke. But nerds get weird when girls turn out to be heroes too.
Luke failed at many more things in ANH than she does in TFA, and took much longer to master the Force. Her only issue in TFA was basically her temporary fright after Maz' short speech to her. She nailed everything else. And for the record, I'm a feminist and happy that the main protagonist is a kick-ass female.
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On January 04 2016 02:42 Ghostcom wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:
Mary Sue was sort of a useless term before TFA. Rarely used due the requirement that the character be a author avatar, the character make no mistakes never fail at any task. It's return in reference to Rey is hysterical because if she is a Mary Sue, so is Luke. But nerds get weird when girls turn out to be heroes too. Yes, it's obviously because nerds can't handle a strong independent woman and not for any other reason such as bad writing... Isn't it hard to live in a world where you have to explain everything with either race, gender or sexual orientation?
Then why isn't Luke a Mary Sue? A farm boy turned ace fighter pilot and storm trooper killing machine? One throw away line about him bagging womp rats and it's fine he can pilot a space fighter. But no one questioned it. Girl pulls off two force tricks and manages to beat a heavily wounded villian and it's bad writing. Got it.
She is a hero in a Star Wars film, nothing more, nothing less.
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Original trilogy is fanfiction?
Not even going into the perfect thing.
Fanfic or not, the movie was written badly, period. Almost every movie is intentionally badly written, because what's that rakes in the most cash. You really want to even go there? Ague she can't be a Mary Sue because TFA can't possibly be badly written?
But let's not beat around the bush here. Level of suspension of disbelief are different for different people.
I mean, even today there's even religious people. I might be debating how believable the writing of TFA is with a person who believes Exodus literally happened.
Almost every movie has flat characters. But not all movies are fanfiction, have a female lead and are held to higher standards. No one debates this deep for F&F12.
Also doesn't help that both Finn and Kylo do seem flawed.
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On January 04 2016 03:01 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2016 02:42 Ghostcom wrote:On January 04 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:
Mary Sue was sort of a useless term before TFA. Rarely used due the requirement that the character be a author avatar, the character make no mistakes never fail at any task. It's return in reference to Rey is hysterical because if she is a Mary Sue, so is Luke. But nerds get weird when girls turn out to be heroes too. Yes, it's obviously because nerds can't handle a strong independent woman and not for any other reason such as bad writing... Isn't it hard to live in a world where you have to explain everything with either race, gender or sexual orientation? Then why isn't Luke a Mary Sue?
Luke needs to be saved by other people in several different occasions (Obi-Wan from the Tusken raiders and in the cantina, Leia once they free her, Han Solo during the Death Star attack). He is shown to be clueless about various things, and other characters chastise him for it (Han in the cockpit of the Falcon). He does not speak every language in the galaxy. He's much less of a Mary Sue than Rey.
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On January 04 2016 03:13 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2016 03:01 Plansix wrote:On January 04 2016 02:42 Ghostcom wrote:On January 04 2016 02:34 Plansix wrote:
Mary Sue was sort of a useless term before TFA. Rarely used due the requirement that the character be a author avatar, the character make no mistakes never fail at any task. It's return in reference to Rey is hysterical because if she is a Mary Sue, so is Luke. But nerds get weird when girls turn out to be heroes too. Yes, it's obviously because nerds can't handle a strong independent woman and not for any other reason such as bad writing... Isn't it hard to live in a world where you have to explain everything with either race, gender or sexual orientation? Then why isn't Luke a Mary Sue? Luke needs to be saved by other people in several different occasions (Obi-Wan from the Tusken raiders and in the cantina, Leia once they free her, Han Solo during the Death Star attack). He is shown to be clueless about various things, and other characters chastise him for it (Han in the cockpit of the Falcon). He does not speak every language in the galaxy. He's much less of a Mary Sue than Rey.
But still a Mary Sue by the standard set by people claiming Rey. A character who has skills and abilities they have no buisness having. Luke can't be an ace pilot, he is a farm boy.
Which is why these debates are pointless. It's a sci fi fantasy movie. Rey spoke some languages and is a pilot, big deal.
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Look, Rey already beat Kylo. Yeah, they both gotten away, so it's kind of a draw, but psychologically for us and the two characters involved, Rey did win.
So why does she need to go to train with Luke? To beat Kylo again? But she already did, and did it on his terms.
Is she going to win without training, then lose after proper training from Luke? No.
Point is, the people that wrote the script, unlike some of you, do know how stories work. And they deliberately wrote it this way. That;'s why she is a Mary Sue.
For the next movie, we have to see Rey go after Snoke, who was completely not established as a villain, and have Kylo Ren as a foil/opponent for someone else. Like Finn with jedi training.
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As a force sensitive person she is inherently special in the Star Wars universe. When Rey first steps up to Ren she is force thrown 20 feet up into a tree and knocked out. She gets saved by Finn stepping up and giving her time. Luke basically destroys the Death Star by himself and is celebrated as a super cool dude afterward. I don't think Luke is a Mary Sue either and personally dislike the term. It's just a way of talking about author insert and wish-fulfillment.
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On January 04 2016 03:19 trulojucreathrma.com wrote:
Look, Rey already beat Kylo. Yeah, they both gotten away, so it's kind of a draw, but psychologically for us and the two characters involved, Rey did win.
So why does she need to go to train with Luke? To beat Kylo again? But she already did, and did it on his terms.
Is she going to win without training, then lose after proper training from Luke? No.
Point is, the people that wrote the script, unlike some of you, do know how stories work. And they deliberately wrote it this way. That;'s why she is a Mary Sue.
For the next movie, we have to see Rey go after Snoke, who was completely not established as a villain, and have Kylo Ren as a foil/opponent for someone else. Like Finn with jedi training.
Kylo's training wasn't complete either. He is an apprentice.
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On January 04 2016 03:23 CobaltBlu wrote:
As a force sensitive person she is inherently special in the Star Wars universe. When Rey first steps up to Ren she is force thrown 20 feet up into a tree and knocked out. She gets saved by Finn stepping up and giving her time. Luke basically destroys the Death Star by himself and is celebrated as a super cool dude afterward. I don't think Luke is a Mary Sue either and personally dislike the term. It's just a way of talking about author insert and wish-fulfillment.
Luke loses to Darth Vader. Then has to train with Yoda to become better.
ANH was a 1 movie story. Your criticism of ANH is that it had a good ending or that the lead was the big hero.
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On January 04 2016 03:25 Plansix wrote:
Kylo's training wasn't complete either. He is an apprentice.
How does that matter? Beating Kylo again is now meaningless in terms of character development/protagonists overcoming challenges. It's completely irrelevant how much training he had.
Even if it was Rey with lightsaber and Kylo without a weapon, and injuries, and in mental crisis, and after just having killed his father; it doesn't matter. Kylo was the challenge that the plot set up for her, and she overcame it at the first attempt.
Then, set up the plot differently. Set up the main villain and have Rey only beat some untrained lackey.
You can't say Snoke was the main villain as she doesn't even know he exists. No interaction. Kylo was her villain and she beat him.
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On January 04 2016 03:29 trulojucreathrma.com wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2016 03:25 Plansix wrote:
Kylo's training wasn't complete either. He is an apprentice. How does that matter? Beating Kylo again is now meaningless in terms of character development/protagonists overcoming challenges.
Agreed. They will both come back upgraded versions of themselves. We will likely see the Knights of Ren and there non-light saber weapons.
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On January 04 2016 03:19 trulojucreathrma.com wrote:
Look, Rey already beat Kylo. Yeah, they both gotten away, so it's kind of a draw, but psychologically for us and the two characters involved, Rey did win.
Why, oh why are we not past this? You say she's the psychological winner but does not address the elephant in the room: Kylo's insane injury. Don't ignore such huge facts. We have absolutely no idea how a healthy Kylo vs Rey battle would've went done. Zero. Nada. Thus, their future encounters are bound to be exciting and meaningful.
And on the Mary Sue topic: I always thought one of the biggest Mary Sue was Wil Wheaton's character in Star Trek Next Generation. Who was a male. Being a woman should not increase the level of of someone's "Mary Sueness", and I don't think it's feminist talk. It's just simply unfair if Rey with flaws (I wrote about them) is suddenly a Mary Sue, but Luke with flaws (and mind you, most of Luke's flaws were due to his good heart) is not.
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On January 04 2016 03:27 trulojucreathrma.com wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2016 03:23 CobaltBlu wrote:
As a force sensitive person she is inherently special in the Star Wars universe. When Rey first steps up to Ren she is force thrown 20 feet up into a tree and knocked out. She gets saved by Finn stepping up and giving her time. Luke basically destroys the Death Star by himself and is celebrated as a super cool dude afterward. I don't think Luke is a Mary Sue either and personally dislike the term. It's just a way of talking about author insert and wish-fulfillment. Luke loses to Darth Vader. Then has to train with Yoda to become better. ANH was a 1 movie story. Your criticism of ANH is that it had a good ending or that the lead was the big hero.
I'm not criticizing ANH nor do I think Luke is a Mary Sue character.
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He didn't get an injury that a bacta tank or some plot magic can't heal. No reason to say that Kylo in Ep.VIII has to be weaker than in TFA. Don't know why it is relevant. Don't know if you mean it counters or supports my arguments. So no idea why you are so surprised/annoyed I don't mention his injuries. They don't matter for the next movie. All they do is show Rey messed him up and give the opportunity to do make them disabling injuries in the next movie. If they don't want the injuries to matter for the next movie, they don't have to. Same with Finn's
Strongly doubt both of them be wheelchair bound in movie VIII. And here plot magic is allowed, because no one wants to see them both wheelchair-bound.
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EPT
