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On December 25 2015 12:21 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2015 10:22 kwizach wrote:On December 25 2015 00:44 On_Slaught wrote:On December 24 2015 18:26 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 17:51 andrewlt wrote:On December 24 2015 12:24 FuzzyJAM wrote:
But because the entire world building is non-existent and the audience is just lost from the start and never gets any sort of bearing, we lose trust in the film. Here's a thought exercise. Think of a way to include all the information you are looking for in the movie without boring the audience. No long expository speeches. Estimate the time it takes to show those on film. Now how long would the movie be? The same length. You just get rid of most of the Men in Black 2 stuff with the rathtars. So lets cut one of the actual world building scenes from the movie for more world building. Right. You actually consider the cargo sequence as good world building? We got two smuggler squads, half of which got eaten by the monsters and that we will probably never see again (do you even remember their names?). We also go rathtars, a.k.a.Men in Black 2 uninteresting monsters. Yes, I would rather have had a sequence about the new Republic and each player's place in the galaxy -- for example a scene set on one of the Republic planets that got destroyed, in order to get some emotional connection to the destruction. It isn't world building (there isn't much of it in the movie). It is character building. It is a way for the old fans to get some background on what was Han up to between the movies and for new fans to learn about some of his traits. Those gang members and the monsters Han's smuggling don't mean jack for the movie, they're only there as a plot device to give more important characters minimum required exposition. Of course, we could have some more world building and what not, but then we'd end up with a 4 hour long movie where the tempo constantly goes up and down as we switch between action and world building. Personally, I like JJ's minimalistic approach in this one. You get just enough info to not feel confused, the pace is pretty steady and you're never feeling disconnected from what's going on (compare it to the prequels where you're jumping from an action scene with 200 jedi right into 2 people talking for 10 minutes about stuff you don't give a damn about at the moment since it's irrelevant to the things happening on the screen immediately before or after). If you have 1.5-2h time limit and you have to cram into it character development, world building, plot development, action and everything you have to compromise and something has to give. I like that JJ focused on character development and action in this one. You get sucked in, you don't have to jog your brain about the bigger picture or what's going on in the background really. You're in the moment, following the main characters and getting to know them more through action than anything else. You have to remember it's just the first of three movies. There's more to come, there'll be plenty opportunities to slow down a bit and show the audience a broader perspective (perhaps giving completely new meaning to events that have already unfolded, which would be awesome).
The idea that you would need to make a "4 hour long movie" in order to include actual world building is clearly false -- we've seen it done time and time again in plenty of movies, including SW movies. The cargo sequence was goofy as hell and could easily have been scrapped entirely for a different sequence that could have combined world building and character development (after all, pretty much the only "character development" we got from it was that Han Solo's actual development in the OT got kind of scrapped to virtually bring back early ANH Solo. What we got for Rey - she's competent and quick on her feet - was already shown elsewhere in the movie as well).
Here's an example (it has plenty of flaws as well and probably wouldn't work to keep up the tension at that specific point in the movie, but it's to give you an idea that it's possible to think of something). Instead of having Han and Chewie appear in the falcon, we could instead have a scene on Hosnian prime, in the office of a senate leader, where "the representatives of the Resistance" are introduced by a guard. Enter Han and Chewie, to the audience's delight. We see them have a short conversation with the senate leader, trying to obtain more funding for the Resistance and warning him about the threat posed by the FO. The Senate leader is shown to be unconvinced, dismissing the FO as a "toothless imperial remnant" exiled in the outer rim, and saying Han & the Resistance still live in the past (he may also point to the sky and say something about the great Republic fleet being stationed in orbit, which would be way too much for the FO to handle in any case). Han & Chewie leave frustrated, and exchange a few words with the group of people with which they came on the planet. They tell them they should stay on Hosnian prime for now, and try to rally individual senators to their cause. He tells them he's going to report back to General Organa, whom he hasn't seen in months. Han & Chewie depart in their ship, but before they jump into hyperspace an alarm erupts in their cockpit. Han exclaims "we've got him!", they jump into hyperspace, and we end up having the Han & Solo + Rey & Finn meeting once Han's ship manages to catch up to the Falcon. There could then be another event forcing them to land on the same planet as they do in the film and go to Maz' bar in order to fix the Falcon (or perhaps simply the manoeuvre of stopping and boarding the Falcon damaged both ships). The destruction of Hosnian Prime by the FO would later on be seen from the perspective of the group Han left on the planet, in order for the audience to have an emotional connection to the destruction (and to understand better that the political institutions and much of the fleet of the Republic were wiped out). The Han & Leia reunion afterwards would of course be different, but instead of having that dumb excuse to bring back the characters to their ANH selves, we just show they've been apart for months due to their struggle against the FO (and because they fully invested themselves into that fight to avoid focusing on the pain their son's turn to the dark side brought them), and it feels good for them to be reunited again.
I know there are plenty of issues with this, notably in terms of pacing with regards to what we had before. That's not the point -- all I wanted to do is show that there are undoubtedly ways to come up with a degree of world building that allows us to both contextualize better what is going on in the movie and explore the Star Wars universe better, while at the same time offering character development at least to the same degree as what we had in the cargo sequence (with none of the goofiness and pointless CGI monsters).
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Yeah, something like that would have been infinitely better.
But I think the issue is maybe that Disney really wanted to appeal to people who have never seen Star Wars. If you look at what they did (excluding aesthetics, which I'll say again: nailed it) it actually wipes out pretty much everything of the originals. Han's character development gets totally reverted (and then redone in two lines of dialogue - whatever). The result of three films of work by the Rebel gets wiped out in a single scene when the Republic gets destroyed. Luke learning to be a Jedi is entirely meaningless because he goes into isolation.
Seriously, the film could easily have taken place 10,000 years after the OT and absolutely nothing would change except some names. There is no continuation going on at all: every effort was made to be discontinuous.
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What a bad experience. It reminded me of Indiana Jones 4, with its blandness and utter lack of originality. A complete waste of time.
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United Kingdom13775 Posts
On December 25 2015 14:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
I really think that doing the Thrawn trilogy as Episodes 7 8 9 would have been fine. I just reread all 3 books over the last couple days and they were pretty solid. You've got Force stuff, Empire stuff, big battles, everything you'd want.
I don't think it could work, not now. The characters are way too old for one. The books are also in part interesting because they have much more than 2 hours a pop to explore the plot they want to cover. Starting fresh was the right call, though acknowledging the TT as implicitly semi-canon (by having Mara etc and by not explicitly contradicting it in a substantial way beyond some details) would make most fans really happy.
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On December 25 2015 20:52 Daswollvieh wrote:
What a bad experience. It reminded me of Indiana Jones 4, with its blandness and utter lack of originality. A complete waste of time.
Just wondering, what is your opinion on OT and PT? Were you a SW fan before?
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Hyrule19057 Posts
On December 25 2015 19:18 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2015 12:21 Manit0u wrote:On December 25 2015 10:22 kwizach wrote:On December 25 2015 00:44 On_Slaught wrote:On December 24 2015 18:26 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 17:51 andrewlt wrote:On December 24 2015 12:24 FuzzyJAM wrote:
But because the entire world building is non-existent and the audience is just lost from the start and never gets any sort of bearing, we lose trust in the film. Here's a thought exercise. Think of a way to include all the information you are looking for in the movie without boring the audience. No long expository speeches. Estimate the time it takes to show those on film. Now how long would the movie be? The same length. You just get rid of most of the Men in Black 2 stuff with the rathtars. So lets cut one of the actual world building scenes from the movie for more world building. Right. You actually consider the cargo sequence as good world building? We got two smuggler squads, half of which got eaten by the monsters and that we will probably never see again (do you even remember their names?). We also go rathtars, a.k.a.Men in Black 2 uninteresting monsters. Yes, I would rather have had a sequence about the new Republic and each player's place in the galaxy -- for example a scene set on one of the Republic planets that got destroyed, in order to get some emotional connection to the destruction. It isn't world building (there isn't much of it in the movie). It is character building. It is a way for the old fans to get some background on what was Han up to between the movies and for new fans to learn about some of his traits. Those gang members and the monsters Han's smuggling don't mean jack for the movie, they're only there as a plot device to give more important characters minimum required exposition. Of course, we could have some more world building and what not, but then we'd end up with a 4 hour long movie where the tempo constantly goes up and down as we switch between action and world building. Personally, I like JJ's minimalistic approach in this one. You get just enough info to not feel confused, the pace is pretty steady and you're never feeling disconnected from what's going on (compare it to the prequels where you're jumping from an action scene with 200 jedi right into 2 people talking for 10 minutes about stuff you don't give a damn about at the moment since it's irrelevant to the things happening on the screen immediately before or after). If you have 1.5-2h time limit and you have to cram into it character development, world building, plot development, action and everything you have to compromise and something has to give. I like that JJ focused on character development and action in this one. You get sucked in, you don't have to jog your brain about the bigger picture or what's going on in the background really. You're in the moment, following the main characters and getting to know them more through action than anything else. You have to remember it's just the first of three movies. There's more to come, there'll be plenty opportunities to slow down a bit and show the audience a broader perspective (perhaps giving completely new meaning to events that have already unfolded, which would be awesome). The idea that you would need to make a "4 hour long movie" in order to include actual world building is clearly false -- we've seen it done time and time again in plenty of movies, including SW movies. The cargo sequence was goofy as hell and could easily have been scrapped entirely for a different sequence that could have combined world building and character development (after all, pretty much the only "character development" we got from it was that Han Solo's actual development in the OT got kind of scrapped to virtually bring back early ANH Solo. What we got for Rey - she's competent and quick on her feet - was already shown elsewhere in the movie as well). Here's an example (it has plenty of flaws as well and probably wouldn't work to keep up the tension at that specific point in the movie, but it's to give you an idea that it's possible to think of something). Instead of having Han and Chewie appear in the falcon, we could instead have a scene on Hosnian prime, in the office of a senate leader, where "the representatives of the Resistance" are introduced by a guard. Enter Han and Chewie, to the audience's delight. We see them have a short conversation with the senate leader, trying to obtain more funding for the Resistance and warning him about the threat posed by the FO. The Senate leader is shown to be unconvinced, dismissing the FO as a "toothless imperial remnant" exiled in the outer rim, and saying Han & the Resistance still live in the past (he may also point to the sky and say something about the great Republic fleet being stationed in orbit, which would be way too much for the FO to handle in any case). Han & Chewie leave frustrated, and exchange a few words with the group of people with which they came on the planet. They tell them they should stay on Hosnian prime for now, and try to rally individual senators to their cause. He tells them he's going to report back to General Organa, whom he hasn't seen in months. Han & Chewie depart in their ship, but before they jump into hyperspace an alarm erupts in their cockpit. Han exclaims "we've got him!", they jump into hyperspace, and we end up having the Han & Solo + Rey & Finn meeting once Han's ship manages to catch up to the Falcon. There could then be another event forcing them to land on the same planet as they do in the film and go to Maz' bar in order to fix the Falcon (or perhaps simply the manoeuvre of stopping and boarding the Falcon damaged both ships). The destruction of Hosnian Prime by the FO would later on be seen from the perspective of the group Han left on the planet, in order for the audience to have an emotional connection to the destruction (and to understand better that the political institutions and much of the fleet of the Republic were wiped out). The Han & Leia reunion afterwards would of course be different, but instead of having that dumb excuse to bring back the characters to their ANH selves, we just show they've been apart for months due to their struggle against the FO (and because they fully invested themselves into that fight to avoid focusing on the pain their son's turn to the dark side brought them), and it feels good for them to be reunited again. I know there are plenty of issues with this, notably in terms of pacing with regards to what we had before. That's not the point -- all I wanted to do is show that there are undoubtedly ways to come up with a degree of world building that allows us to both contextualize better what is going on in the movie and explore the Star Wars universe better, while at the same time offering character development at least to the same degree as what we had in the cargo sequence (with none of the goofiness and pointless CGI monsters).
That wouldn't work for many reasons: first, Han and Chewie left the Resistence when Ren turned. He's trying to recapture his past by pretending nothing ever happened. Second, he was gone for many years, not a few months. Third, Han's death tells the audience that though things are similar to ANH, the past is done and trying to ignore it will end badly. Fourth, Ren trying to be Vader and failing miserably reinforces that. If Ren had looked to the future and tried something new, he probably wouldn't have been beaten by a rookie. All that along with the fast pacing shows that everything is changing rapidly, despite many things looking like nothing is changing.
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It is pretty obvious that the movie was primarily targeted at audiences that haven't seen the previous movies (like my wife, who hasn't seen any of the OT or PT but absolutely loved this one). It reminded me a lot about Star Trek reboot by JJ. I've never really liked ST, seen a couple of episodes, maybe one or two movies in the past but disregarded it as not good. Then I went to the movie in 2009 because a friend wanted to go. I've left the screening certain that I've just witnessed the movie of the year. Have seen it like 20 times since and I wouldn't mind seeing it again.
I just hope that people for whom this is the first SW experience have the same feeling.
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This movie is total fanservice with all the nostalgia and references... my wife fell asleep but likes most mainstream action scifi. I cant see it converting many who arent familiar with the originals
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Germany25657 Posts
On December 25 2015 22:20 Manit0u wrote:
It is pretty obvious that the movie was primarily targeted at audiences that haven't seen the previous movies (like my wife, who hasn't seen any of the OT or PT but absolutely loved this one). It reminded me a lot about Star Trek reboot by JJ. I've never really liked ST, seen a couple of episodes, maybe one or two movies in the past but disregarded it as not good. Then I went to the movie in 2009 because a friend wanted to go. I've left the screening certain that I've just witnessed the movie of the year. Have seen it like 20 times since and I wouldn't mind seeing it again.
I just hope that people for whom this is the first SW experience have the same feeling.
I wish TL had an 11th commandment, letting me ban anyone that dislikes old Star Trek but likes new Star Trek. You people are terrible 
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It's far better than the first two episodes. But it doesn't top Revenge of the Sith for me.
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On December 25 2015 21:58 tofucake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2015 19:18 kwizach wrote:On December 25 2015 12:21 Manit0u wrote:On December 25 2015 10:22 kwizach wrote:On December 25 2015 00:44 On_Slaught wrote:On December 24 2015 18:26 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 17:51 andrewlt wrote:On December 24 2015 12:24 FuzzyJAM wrote:
But because the entire world building is non-existent and the audience is just lost from the start and never gets any sort of bearing, we lose trust in the film. Here's a thought exercise. Think of a way to include all the information you are looking for in the movie without boring the audience. No long expository speeches. Estimate the time it takes to show those on film. Now how long would the movie be? The same length. You just get rid of most of the Men in Black 2 stuff with the rathtars. So lets cut one of the actual world building scenes from the movie for more world building. Right. You actually consider the cargo sequence as good world building? We got two smuggler squads, half of which got eaten by the monsters and that we will probably never see again (do you even remember their names?). We also go rathtars, a.k.a.Men in Black 2 uninteresting monsters. Yes, I would rather have had a sequence about the new Republic and each player's place in the galaxy -- for example a scene set on one of the Republic planets that got destroyed, in order to get some emotional connection to the destruction. It isn't world building (there isn't much of it in the movie). It is character building. It is a way for the old fans to get some background on what was Han up to between the movies and for new fans to learn about some of his traits. Those gang members and the monsters Han's smuggling don't mean jack for the movie, they're only there as a plot device to give more important characters minimum required exposition. Of course, we could have some more world building and what not, but then we'd end up with a 4 hour long movie where the tempo constantly goes up and down as we switch between action and world building. Personally, I like JJ's minimalistic approach in this one. You get just enough info to not feel confused, the pace is pretty steady and you're never feeling disconnected from what's going on (compare it to the prequels where you're jumping from an action scene with 200 jedi right into 2 people talking for 10 minutes about stuff you don't give a damn about at the moment since it's irrelevant to the things happening on the screen immediately before or after). If you have 1.5-2h time limit and you have to cram into it character development, world building, plot development, action and everything you have to compromise and something has to give. I like that JJ focused on character development and action in this one. You get sucked in, you don't have to jog your brain about the bigger picture or what's going on in the background really. You're in the moment, following the main characters and getting to know them more through action than anything else. You have to remember it's just the first of three movies. There's more to come, there'll be plenty opportunities to slow down a bit and show the audience a broader perspective (perhaps giving completely new meaning to events that have already unfolded, which would be awesome). The idea that you would need to make a "4 hour long movie" in order to include actual world building is clearly false -- we've seen it done time and time again in plenty of movies, including SW movies. The cargo sequence was goofy as hell and could easily have been scrapped entirely for a different sequence that could have combined world building and character development (after all, pretty much the only "character development" we got from it was that Han Solo's actual development in the OT got kind of scrapped to virtually bring back early ANH Solo. What we got for Rey - she's competent and quick on her feet - was already shown elsewhere in the movie as well). Here's an example (it has plenty of flaws as well and probably wouldn't work to keep up the tension at that specific point in the movie, but it's to give you an idea that it's possible to think of something). Instead of having Han and Chewie appear in the falcon, we could instead have a scene on Hosnian prime, in the office of a senate leader, where "the representatives of the Resistance" are introduced by a guard. Enter Han and Chewie, to the audience's delight. We see them have a short conversation with the senate leader, trying to obtain more funding for the Resistance and warning him about the threat posed by the FO. The Senate leader is shown to be unconvinced, dismissing the FO as a "toothless imperial remnant" exiled in the outer rim, and saying Han & the Resistance still live in the past (he may also point to the sky and say something about the great Republic fleet being stationed in orbit, which would be way too much for the FO to handle in any case). Han & Chewie leave frustrated, and exchange a few words with the group of people with which they came on the planet. They tell them they should stay on Hosnian prime for now, and try to rally individual senators to their cause. He tells them he's going to report back to General Organa, whom he hasn't seen in months. Han & Chewie depart in their ship, but before they jump into hyperspace an alarm erupts in their cockpit. Han exclaims "we've got him!", they jump into hyperspace, and we end up having the Han & Solo + Rey & Finn meeting once Han's ship manages to catch up to the Falcon. There could then be another event forcing them to land on the same planet as they do in the film and go to Maz' bar in order to fix the Falcon (or perhaps simply the manoeuvre of stopping and boarding the Falcon damaged both ships). The destruction of Hosnian Prime by the FO would later on be seen from the perspective of the group Han left on the planet, in order for the audience to have an emotional connection to the destruction (and to understand better that the political institutions and much of the fleet of the Republic were wiped out). The Han & Leia reunion afterwards would of course be different, but instead of having that dumb excuse to bring back the characters to their ANH selves, we just show they've been apart for months due to their struggle against the FO (and because they fully invested themselves into that fight to avoid focusing on the pain their son's turn to the dark side brought them), and it feels good for them to be reunited again. I know there are plenty of issues with this, notably in terms of pacing with regards to what we had before. That's not the point -- all I wanted to do is show that there are undoubtedly ways to come up with a degree of world building that allows us to both contextualize better what is going on in the movie and explore the Star Wars universe better, while at the same time offering character development at least to the same degree as what we had in the cargo sequence (with none of the goofiness and pointless CGI monsters). That wouldn't work for many reasons: first, Han and Chewie left the Resistence when Ren turned. He's trying to recapture his past by pretending nothing ever happened. Second, he was gone for many years, not a few months. Third, Han's death tells the audience that though things are similar to ANH, the past is done and trying to ignore it will end badly. Fourth, Ren trying to be Vader and failing miserably reinforces that. If Ren had looked to the future and tried something new, he probably wouldn't have been beaten by a rookie. All that along with the fast pacing shows that everything is changing rapidly, despite many things looking like nothing is changing.
Why wouldn't it work? In his version, Han didn't leave the Resistance for many years. And it doesn't make a difference for the main plot of the movie, because Han gets right back into Resistance business anyways. Basically it's just one scene exchanged but it leads to same ending.
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On December 25 2015 02:57 Volband wrote:Not sure what all the fuss is about. + Show Spoiler +As I already said, it was like 98% sure already based on just the evident things fro mthe movie, and if you read certain extra observations from those with eagle-eyes and profound SW memory, then you would be convinced for 100% as well. She looks like Padme, she is dressed just like Anakin and Luke, it explains her flashback and why Kylo saved/spared her life, it explains Luke's reaction, and explains her unremarkeble talents in fighting and piloting.
Oh, poor Kylo, when he has to live with the fact that rey is closer to Vader than he'll ever could be...
+ Show Spoiler +Rey isn't closer to Vader than him, at least genetically :D.
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On December 25 2015 21:58 tofucake wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2015 19:18 kwizach wrote:On December 25 2015 12:21 Manit0u wrote:On December 25 2015 10:22 kwizach wrote:On December 25 2015 00:44 On_Slaught wrote:On December 24 2015 18:26 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 17:51 andrewlt wrote:On December 24 2015 12:24 FuzzyJAM wrote:
But because the entire world building is non-existent and the audience is just lost from the start and never gets any sort of bearing, we lose trust in the film. Here's a thought exercise. Think of a way to include all the information you are looking for in the movie without boring the audience. No long expository speeches. Estimate the time it takes to show those on film. Now how long would the movie be? The same length. You just get rid of most of the Men in Black 2 stuff with the rathtars. So lets cut one of the actual world building scenes from the movie for more world building. Right. You actually consider the cargo sequence as good world building? We got two smuggler squads, half of which got eaten by the monsters and that we will probably never see again (do you even remember their names?). We also go rathtars, a.k.a.Men in Black 2 uninteresting monsters. Yes, I would rather have had a sequence about the new Republic and each player's place in the galaxy -- for example a scene set on one of the Republic planets that got destroyed, in order to get some emotional connection to the destruction. It isn't world building (there isn't much of it in the movie). It is character building. It is a way for the old fans to get some background on what was Han up to between the movies and for new fans to learn about some of his traits. Those gang members and the monsters Han's smuggling don't mean jack for the movie, they're only there as a plot device to give more important characters minimum required exposition. Of course, we could have some more world building and what not, but then we'd end up with a 4 hour long movie where the tempo constantly goes up and down as we switch between action and world building. Personally, I like JJ's minimalistic approach in this one. You get just enough info to not feel confused, the pace is pretty steady and you're never feeling disconnected from what's going on (compare it to the prequels where you're jumping from an action scene with 200 jedi right into 2 people talking for 10 minutes about stuff you don't give a damn about at the moment since it's irrelevant to the things happening on the screen immediately before or after). If you have 1.5-2h time limit and you have to cram into it character development, world building, plot development, action and everything you have to compromise and something has to give. I like that JJ focused on character development and action in this one. You get sucked in, you don't have to jog your brain about the bigger picture or what's going on in the background really. You're in the moment, following the main characters and getting to know them more through action than anything else. You have to remember it's just the first of three movies. There's more to come, there'll be plenty opportunities to slow down a bit and show the audience a broader perspective (perhaps giving completely new meaning to events that have already unfolded, which would be awesome). The idea that you would need to make a "4 hour long movie" in order to include actual world building is clearly false -- we've seen it done time and time again in plenty of movies, including SW movies. The cargo sequence was goofy as hell and could easily have been scrapped entirely for a different sequence that could have combined world building and character development (after all, pretty much the only "character development" we got from it was that Han Solo's actual development in the OT got kind of scrapped to virtually bring back early ANH Solo. What we got for Rey - she's competent and quick on her feet - was already shown elsewhere in the movie as well). Here's an example (it has plenty of flaws as well and probably wouldn't work to keep up the tension at that specific point in the movie, but it's to give you an idea that it's possible to think of something). Instead of having Han and Chewie appear in the falcon, we could instead have a scene on Hosnian prime, in the office of a senate leader, where "the representatives of the Resistance" are introduced by a guard. Enter Han and Chewie, to the audience's delight. We see them have a short conversation with the senate leader, trying to obtain more funding for the Resistance and warning him about the threat posed by the FO. The Senate leader is shown to be unconvinced, dismissing the FO as a "toothless imperial remnant" exiled in the outer rim, and saying Han & the Resistance still live in the past (he may also point to the sky and say something about the great Republic fleet being stationed in orbit, which would be way too much for the FO to handle in any case). Han & Chewie leave frustrated, and exchange a few words with the group of people with which they came on the planet. They tell them they should stay on Hosnian prime for now, and try to rally individual senators to their cause. He tells them he's going to report back to General Organa, whom he hasn't seen in months. Han & Chewie depart in their ship, but before they jump into hyperspace an alarm erupts in their cockpit. Han exclaims "we've got him!", they jump into hyperspace, and we end up having the Han & Solo + Rey & Finn meeting once Han's ship manages to catch up to the Falcon. There could then be another event forcing them to land on the same planet as they do in the film and go to Maz' bar in order to fix the Falcon (or perhaps simply the manoeuvre of stopping and boarding the Falcon damaged both ships). The destruction of Hosnian Prime by the FO would later on be seen from the perspective of the group Han left on the planet, in order for the audience to have an emotional connection to the destruction (and to understand better that the political institutions and much of the fleet of the Republic were wiped out). The Han & Leia reunion afterwards would of course be different, but instead of having that dumb excuse to bring back the characters to their ANH selves, we just show they've been apart for months due to their struggle against the FO (and because they fully invested themselves into that fight to avoid focusing on the pain their son's turn to the dark side brought them), and it feels good for them to be reunited again. I know there are plenty of issues with this, notably in terms of pacing with regards to what we had before. That's not the point -- all I wanted to do is show that there are undoubtedly ways to come up with a degree of world building that allows us to both contextualize better what is going on in the movie and explore the Star Wars universe better, while at the same time offering character development at least to the same degree as what we had in the cargo sequence (with none of the goofiness and pointless CGI monsters). That wouldn't work for many reasons: first, Han and Chewie left the Resistence when Ren turned. He's trying to recapture his past by pretending nothing ever happened. Second, he was gone for many years, not a few months. Third, Han's death tells the audience that though things are similar to ANH, the past is done and trying to ignore it will end badly. Fourth, Ren trying to be Vader and failing miserably reinforces that. If Ren had looked to the future and tried something new, he probably wouldn't have been beaten by a rookie. All that along with the fast pacing shows that everything is changing rapidly, despite many things looking like nothing is changing.
We aren't told how much time passed since Ren turned in the movie. In any case, like TerranHill said, in my version Han has been away from Leia for several months and not several years (which is way more plausible, by the way). The rest works just as fine. I wasn't saying that they should have done what I described anyway (although I would have far preferred it over the cargo sequence we got), but simply that it was perfectly possible to insert more world building into the movie.
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On December 25 2015 22:20 Manit0u wrote:
It is pretty obvious that the movie was primarily targeted at audiences that haven't seen the previous movies (like my wife, who hasn't seen any of the OT or PT but absolutely loved this one). It reminded me a lot about Star Trek reboot by JJ. I've never really liked ST, seen a couple of episodes, maybe one or two movies in the past but disregarded it as not good. Then I went to the movie in 2009 because a friend wanted to go. I've left the screening certain that I've just witnessed the movie of the year. Have seen it like 20 times since and I wouldn't mind seeing it again.
I just hope that people for whom this is the first SW experience have the same feeling.
The original movies were made to appeal to everyone and didn't rely heavily on lore or backstory. TFA is following in that vein. Keeping the movie access able by not relying on people having seen any of the previous movies.
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Good movie overall, just really stupid. Some thoughts:
1. The casting was hit and miss. I think the old cast got too much screentime and could not act whatsoever. I enjoyed the old Star Wars movies and Indiana Jones as much as the next guy but Harrison Ford is too old to be the action lead. At best he should have been a side character. Same with Carrie Fisher. The characters were also either too young or way too old. The new cast looked like they just graduated junior high while the old cast just broke out of a retirement home.
Characters I liked: Poe Dameron, though his lines were rushed and he didn't get enough screentime. Finn was decent. Rey was good. BD8 was entertaining. Chewbaca was... Chewbaca.
Characters I did not like: Han Solo, too old, too pandering to the audience. Leia, why is she there? Kylo Ren, the rebellious teenager sith. Snoke looks fucking retarded.
2. I have no idea what the fuck is going on in the galaxy. How was the first order established? How did Snoke take control of the empire? Why are the rebels still the resistance if they won the war? Where is the republic in this entire movie? Was the republic there the entire time or was it established after episode 6? If the republic isn't directly at war with the first order then why are they blown to bits? In fact, was that Courecant they blew up or some other planet? Was that tiny X-wing fleet literally the entire rebel force? If not, why didn't they send their entire armada to blow up the new death star? Why did the new empire decide to build another death star if the last two were blown up with extreme ease? Was the death star the home planet of the new empire? There are so many setting/background questions which were never explained.
3. Everyone is a melodramatic crybaby. Everyone. Han Solo the badass is a helpless father that cries about his son. Luke decided to run away and wallow in self pity because one of his students went to the dark side. Leia cries about her son just like Han. Rey has daddy issues. Finn feels guilty for being brainwashed. Kylo Ren has self esteem problems. The only character in control of their emotions is Poe and he's in the movie for 5 minutes.
4. Jedi/Sith are fucked up in this movie. Kylo Ren is a fucking emo "I hate my mom" going-through-a-phase rebellious teenager. Rey, with no training whatsoever is able to: jedi mind trick, force pull and defeat a sith in single combat. Light saber fights conveniently slice off parts of clothes, make little scratches and always miss (whereas in the original movies if they hit you're either dead or a cripple.) And apparently you don't need any training whatsoever to wield these weapons anymore. You don't even need to be a jedi. What do they even need to find Luke for? Just keep doing what you're doing.
5. The plot is mindbogglingly stupid.
This is literally the plot: "Luke trained a bunch of students and then one of them went evil so he got really sad and flew away and drew a map to himself just in case anyone wanted to find him but he hid it because he was tsundere and the entire galaxy is tearing itself apart trying to find the pieces of the map because... because they really want to talk to Luke for some reason."
A toddler can do better.
As I said before, this is a good dumb action movie. Fun to watch but downright terrible if you look past the surface.
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Hyrule19057 Posts
1. Yeah...
2. All of this was explained: The FO is basically the Imperial Remnant. Snoke commanded a large portion of the Imperial Navy, and fled with them to the Unknown Regions when the Emperor died. The FO is a very small government in control of few planets. The Republic was reestablished after Episode 6, which was only a few years after 4. The Galactic Senate was only finally dissolved in 4, so there's still plenty of the infrastructure for the senate around. The New Republic didn't see the FO as a threat, but a few senators did, and they privately financed the Resistance, which is a group that does think the FO is a threat and wants to stop them. The X-Wing fleet is in fact all the Resistance has in terms of military power. The FO built Starkiller with the express purpose of destroying the New Republic in one fell swoop, which it essentially did, which is why Snoke didn't really care that it was fucked at the end.
3. Han and Leia's son went on a murderous rampage and then joined what is essentially Space ISIS, so duh they are upset. Rey has severe psychological stress from being abandoned as a child, so duh she has issues. Finn had a crisis of conscience when he was ordered to kill random innocent civilians, so duh he has issues. Ren went on a murderous rampage and wants to believe it was for a reason, but he still has major doubts, and probably PTSD, so duh he has issues.
4. There are no Jedi or Sith in this movie except for Luke in a flashback and at the very end. Rey is strong with the Force but not trained, hence not Jedi. Ren has no Sith master, so not Sith. He's partially trained, but also the Bad Guy. He's Dark Jedi at best, but since he never finished his training he's a Padawan at best, not even full Jedi. Rey only used Force powers Ren used on her, and only after Ren entered her mind, so it's pretty heavily implied that she plucked the knowledge of those specific techniques from Ren. There's also the possibility that Rey was in training with Luke and was hidden on Jakku and mindwiped so Ren wouldn't kill her, but we won't know that until Episode 8 at least. As for weapons: it was established in the first 10 minutes that Rey is good with melee weapons, and Ren has at least enough lightsaber training to build his own, so he's probably got some idea of how to use them. Finn got his shit pushed in so your argument falls apart there.
5. The plot is actually: "Luke was training a bunch of force sensitives to be the New Jedi Order, then the one related to Vader slaughtered them all. Luke lost faith in himself and hid away, but not after (speculation here) sending Lor San Tekka with Rey to Jakku to keep her safe (end speculation) and giving Tekka a map back to him for when the time was right."
Actually looking at the movie, it holds up decently well.
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And it wasn't just a class or a student went bad it was his very first class and it was his nephew who turned and converted/killed the rest of the jedi who he must have trained from when they were younglings.
If you consider the scale of the Empire there's going to be a ton of stormtroopers and fleets just sitting around waiting for someone to take over for the empire. The Starkiller cannon is probably a smaller project then the deathstars if they built it into a planet instead of an orbital facility. Trade that for tearing out the heart of the new republic and the majority of the resistances forces.
You gotta figure after a battle like this or even the OT that the order is going to have shipyards and facilities to rebuild while the resistance is constantly on the run. Just use conventional forces next time and the whole problem is done.
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On December 25 2015 17:32 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On December 25 2015 12:41 shin_toss wrote:On December 25 2015 03:35 BeStFAN wrote:i recently went to a toy store for christmas shopping. it was very interesting to see girls looking for lightsabers and playing with rey action figures instead of princess or pink toys. it's very encouraging to see that girls can also enjoy what i enjoyed as a kid  In my country too, was really surprised that every mall store has a Star Wars related merchandise, and surprised too that a lot of people enjoyed it esp the kids. Wait... you were surprised that kids eat up toys? What do kids usually do in your country? Show nested quote +On December 25 2015 16:49 malcram wrote:On December 25 2015 15:00 Deathstar wrote:On December 25 2015 12:41 shin_toss wrote:On December 25 2015 03:35 BeStFAN wrote:i recently went to a toy store for christmas shopping. it was very interesting to see girls looking for lightsabers and playing with rey action figures instead of princess or pink toys. it's very encouraging to see that girls can also enjoy what i enjoyed as a kid In my country too, was really surprised that every mall store has a Star Wars related merchandise, and surprised too that a lot of people enjoyed it esp the kids. That's the point. Plot and lore follows the merchandise. Black stormtrooper? random girl competing with a jedi trained by luke skywalker? More and more markets to sell merchandise to. Thank you disney. Also, that sun eating planet is really pitiful. The empire was better off making a bunch of deathstars as opposed to a single planet that can be taken out by 4 fighters what a joke. And stormtroopers still can't aim. I thought they are trained from birth. My suspension can only go so far. are you coming back in episode VIII? Maybe this time they should try building it smaller than the original Deathstar. Going bigger is clearly not the way for blasting into the Deathstar market.
Lol @ your comprehension
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Don't understand all the Kylo hate. I easily found him to be the most interesting part about the entire movie.
First of all it should be clear that his characterization is intentional. I think most of you in here realize this but in other places it seems to me like people just don't get his character. Like they assume the writers tried to write an epic character and were bad at doing their job so accidentally wrote an angsty teenage Vader. Obviously this is not the case.
He's a huge Vader fanboi but (at least for now) lacks something that keeps him from ever getting close to Vader power level. He probably has a fundamental misunderstanding of the force and tries to brute force it too much, hence his constant temper tantrums, and losing a light sabre battle against another force user who doesn't have any light sabre practice. But instead of just ending up failing, like most villains tend to do, he actually sticks to it and overcomes a basic obstacle in killing his father (this was actually pointed out as an actual "test" by Snoke, so it's not something that came trivially to Kylo).
Summarizing him, I think he is basically the reverse of what the typical hero is at the beginning of their Hero's Journey: Inexperienced, but with a "true" heart and overcomes some basic obstacles at the beginning of his journey.
As such I would not be surprised at all if we see a kind of "villains journey" storyline out of Kylo, an idea that intrigues me a lot in general, not just the Star Wars universe (I can't actually off the top of my head think of any example where something like that was pulled off). Of course it remains to be seen if they actually do something good with it.
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What Kylo is lacking right now and what causes the 'hate' is a complete lack of motive. Yes he looks up to his granddad in Vader but there needs to be some catalyst that pushes him over the edge into killing/torturing. Right now that is missing from the movie and it hurts the character.
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EPT
