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On December 24 2015 09:04 Falling wrote:
Alright. I LOVED the first third or first half, but only liked the last half or so.[...]
Both basically lack the gravitas of threatening villains- there's some cool stuff going with their motivation and coming to power, but it's at the cost of being as threatening as past villains... perhaps a placeholder villain was needed over top of them while they find their footing. (A boots on the ground villain, I mean.) I don't know. Something didn't quite sit right and I'm not sure the what the solution is- maybe it's because I don't know the end.
[...] and considering it's been 30 years since Return of the Jedi, a little update would've been nice[...]
good post, I have similar feelings about the movie, just that the negative points you mentioned left a more negative impression on me (I liked the first half and hated the last half).
I also brought up the idea of a placeholder villain, I think it would have been a good idea. Basically all the weight of being the main villain lay on kylos shoulders and, to be honest, he totally sucks as a main villain.
And it would've made sense: If you're unstable and still in training, you have some kind of mentor by your side who shows you how it's done. Like in a company, if you are an (in his case unstable and whiny :D ) apprentice you won't be project leader right from start.
And yeah, I also was a bit confused about the political situation and for me it felt like the writers had been lazy and didn't even think of it too much aswell. They just want us to accept that good vs evil situation, they throw in the republic just seconds before it's destroyed... it's a mess. Rey could've just asked what this is all about and let someone explain it to her. Would've been just a matter of 1 minute.
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On December 24 2015 09:25 KobraKay wrote:Hi guys....I just watched the film and besides don't liking the whole RvR with the newbie R winning, I have two questions that maybe proper starwars fans (I'm just someone who enjoys the movies  ) may already have an answer to: 1 - the super weapon (the planet that drinks the sun) can move? So it is like a planet with jets to move around? Because otherwise, how can it fire twice "in a row" if it needs AN ENTIRE SUN to charge?
In my own understanding it doesn't move, it just get energy from the sun but doesn't consume it (or if it does , it just find another star since it charges FTL)
I have another one but this one really shows my starwars noobiness....I always thought that in order to use a light saber one had to have some knowledge or some force "flowing inside" already...yet Fin picks that shit up, presses a button (?) and voila, its just like any other melee weapon (in which he has training) but looks cooler. My world was shattered lol
r.
No you don't need force to open up a lightsaber, even a clueless Luke turned it on on EPIV, There are a lot of times in Starwars EU that happened. I remember Darth Maul fighthing this assasin with a batton type lightsaber, even the kids on Jedi vs Sith series, those random kids picked up a light saber.
On December 24 2015 08:39 Silvanel wrote:
Just watched it. I would be really disappointed if i was SW fan. Fortunatelly i am not so i just shrug and move on.
That's just silly, that's like saying this new Bacon tastes bad when you're a vegan. AND also MOST of Starwars fans or not actually enjoyed and has a positive feedback for the movie.
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On December 24 2015 10:33 Volband wrote:
Seriously, it's just getting tiring, and you are telling me it's not nitpicking... Certainly not every single criticism are, but come on, some of the things are just plain ridiculous. The only one thing that is debateable is the flying skill of Rey, as I feel that if she turns out to be not a Skywalker somehow, then I'll be the first to admit that it is indeed a bit strange how fast she learned to navigate the MF, because it is just not possible that she had as much opportunity to hone her flying skills as she had with perfecting her dueling ones.
I don't think you got my central point. Yes, there are possible explanations available. I think a lot of them are pretty iffy, but they're not beyond Star Wars logic. You have to rely on audience co-operation so it's not categorically an issue when it happens. Were the only such occasion with the films that Rey is stupidly competent in a lot of ways, pointing that out would absolutely be a nitpick.
But because the entire world building is non-existent and the audience is just lost from the start and never gets any sort of bearing, we lose trust in the film. If we knew what the First Order and Resistance were rather than have to make that up for ourselves (or read cereal packets or wherever we were supposed to get that info, IDK), if we knew what had happened since RotJ, why the Republic didn't respond to their military threats, and so on and so on. . .yeah, then we could deal with Rey being insanely competent, or Phasma lowering the shields, or no one mentioning the fact that 100 billion people have just been murdered, or Leia going to Random McRandom rather than Chewy, or Glasses Yoda having Luke's first lightsaber, or Han showing up to the MF almost immediately, or the First Order falling for the same trick a third time, or Poe randomly getting off Jakku, or what Max von Sydow has to do with anything, or etc. Taken individually, these are minor qualms. In fact, those minor issues aren't issues at all if they're done within an overall solid film. But because there isn't any solid framework to work from, the little things build up and up.
The problem is absolutely not that there are 87 issues of internal consistency or lack of information which we can work through together and then, afterwards, I can say "Ah, OK - film is amazing then." It's not any one of those individual 87 problems at all. It's not that any one of these problems are insoluble. It's that they are characteristic of the film rather than the exception.
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Han Solo made the film and then they kill him off. Don't expect quality from 8 onwards.
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you people are overly cynical
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Canada11388 Posts
I've thinking about that Kylo v Rey fight in regards to Rey not having training... are sword forms actually taught on the Light side of the Force? Think about Luke- he doesn't block the practice droids bolts by learning sword forms- he does so by surrendering to the Force and blocking out visual stimuli. Similarly, Luke hits the exhaust ports, not by training harder to shoot at small spaces (though he has that knack) but by turning off his computer and letting go. Yoda is all about unlearning what you have learned and that a Jedi's strength flows from the Force when he is calm and at peace- but doesn't actually teach him to fight with a lightsaber.
From the prequels, we've gotten used to tight choreographed fights and assume that because the stunt people require significant training, so also for the Jedi... but is the training in concentration and letting go or is it in sword forms? (Even in the prequels, we don't see HOW they get to be so good at light saber fighting.) If the first, then as counter-intuitive as it is to our idea of training regimes, Rey would not need to be trained to wield a lightsaber- she just needs to surrender enough. Jedi seem to be in control of their emotions, but surrender control to the Force, whereas the Sith's emotions are out of control, but try to control the Force (or at least others through the Force.) Is martial training unnecessary for a Jedi? (Although a base level of athleticism seems important given Yoda's training regime on Dagobah- something Rey already has.)
The film might be doubling down on some older ideas of the Force that might have gotten a little lost in all the flashy sword fights of the prequels. Just a thought.
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On December 24 2015 12:24 FuzzyJAM wrote:
But because the entire world building is non-existent and the audience is just lost from the start and never gets any sort of bearing, we lose trust in the film.
Just because you are lost doesn't mean the rest of us are. It's a 2-hour movie. Part of the magic of movie making is showing only the most important things to advance the plot or to stir the emotions of moviegoers. Your imagination is supposed to fill in the rest of the details.
You're looking for a level of detail that the general movie going public is just going to find uninteresting. The Song of Ice and Fire series is around 4000 pages now and it doesn't even go over everything. There are some things you can only find out by perusing the appendices. Movies don't have appendices.
Here's a thought exercise. Think of a way to include all the information you are looking for in the movie without boring the audience. No long expository speeches. Estimate the time it takes to show those on film. Now how long would the movie be?
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On December 24 2015 17:51 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 12:24 FuzzyJAM wrote:
But because the entire world building is non-existent and the audience is just lost from the start and never gets any sort of bearing, we lose trust in the film. Here's a thought exercise. Think of a way to include all the information you are looking for in the movie without boring the audience. No long expository speeches. Estimate the time it takes to show those on film. Now how long would the movie be?
The same length. You just get rid of most of the Men in Black 2 stuff with the rathtars.
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I enjoyed the movie a lot (after reading last few pages i must be the only one lol). Remember it's 1st movie in a trilogy. If the next 2 movies are any good, most things will be explained. Still thought pretty much everything made sense.
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On December 24 2015 11:43 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 09:25 KobraKay wrote:Hi guys....I just watched the film and besides don't liking the whole RvR with the newbie R winning, I have two questions that maybe proper starwars fans (I'm just someone who enjoys the movies ) may already have an answer to: 1 - the super weapon (the planet that drinks the sun) can move? So it is like a planet with jets to move around? Because otherwise, how can it fire twice "in a row" if it needs AN ENTIRE SUN to charge? In my own understanding it doesn't move, it just get energy from the sun but doesn't consume it (or if it does , it just find another star since it charges FTL) Show nested quote +
I have another one but this one really shows my starwars noobiness....I always thought that in order to use a light saber one had to have some knowledge or some force "flowing inside" already...yet Fin picks that shit up, presses a button (?) and voila, its just like any other melee weapon (in which he has training) but looks cooler. My world was shattered lol
r.
No you don't need force to open up a lightsaber, even a clueless Luke turned it on on EPIV, There are a lot of times in Starwars EU that happened. I remember Darth Maul fighthing this assasin with a batton type lightsaber, even the kids on Jedi vs Sith series, those random kids picked up a light saber. Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 08:39 Silvanel wrote:
Just watched it. I would be really disappointed if i was SW fan. Fortunatelly i am not so i just shrug and move on. That's just silly, that's like saying this new Bacon tastes bad when you're a vegan. AND also MOST of Starwars fans or not actually enjoyed and has a positive feedback for the movie.
Yeah but it had already fired, they had 2 suns close to that gun-planet? Even if so, after making the second shot (had it not blown up) they would live in perpetual darkness?
I cant remember the exact explanation obviously but I was really under the impression that it drained the sun and "kill it" as a consequence, hence why after the gun-planet's explosion there was still only one sun resulting from the explosion. But that is something minor I believe, I just wanted to know if any explanation was given to that but the only thing I believe reasonable would be that it moves. Since now it is destroyed, doesn't matter that much 
Regarding the clueless Luke, no matter how clueless he was, he was still juiced up with force hence why to me it does make sense. But someone already reminded me of Han Solo using the LS in EP V I believe so I got that one cleared out, thanks
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On December 24 2015 18:35 PredY wrote:
I enjoyed the movie a lot (after reading last few pages i must be the only one lol). Remember it's 1st movie in a trilogy. If the next 2 movies are any good, most things will be explained. Still thought pretty much everything made sense.
You are not. I think most people posting here enjoyed it
I for instance enjoyed it, despite having a few questions and some things that didn't met my taste, but that does not remotely makes me not thinking it was a good movie and having enjoyed it. Would see again
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On December 24 2015 16:48 Falling wrote:
I've thinking about that Kylo v Rey fight in regards to Rey not having training...
We better to take a broader look at the R vs. R duel to understand how it developed.
Assume that we are Disney executives and principal decision makers, discussing stuff about TFA. The question on the bollard is - are we going to have a light saber duel or not in this movie? From SW movie perspective, most probably all the people complaining "how come R defeats R" will then be complaining "what kind of a SW movie it is, not even having a light saber duel". More importantly, Disney would not profit as much from light saber toys if they do not provide us some sort of clash.
So we need to either do not include a light saber duel at all or figure something out to make sense - as much as possible. Apparently the question was answered as “we are going to have our duel”.
Who can perform a light saber duel? Luke is not anywhere close. Snoke is saved for future films. We have only 2 candidates actually. R and R.
From this point on, the movie gives you the following points;
- Rey is a badass survivor. She can handle herself pretty well, trained in melee combat.
- Rey is a competent force user.
- Han Solo never shot a wookie bowcaster with his 30+ years partnership with Chewy. He just happens to wonder that type of a weapon is a bowcaster and decided to use it in this movie for the first time . The message to the audience: a wookie bowcaster bolt makes you fly in the air.
- Kylo gets hit by the bowcaster bolt. Bleeding seriously. If you have ever donated blood, you may have a better understanding of its effects on a human. He is already weakened by blood loss.
- Kylo has serious anger management issues. Torn apart as a result of his inner conflict – Light vs. Dark and emotionally not stable.
- Also he is emotionally weakened. The novelization of the movie says something like “Kylo was actually weakened by his latest actions, rather than getting stronger as one side of his hoped for”.
- Finally, Rey is apparently not some random girl. In the novelization Kylo says “it is you” when Kylo recognizes Rey’s force affinity. Most probably, Kylo already knows who actually Rey is.
Indeed these sort of stuff happens all the time in fairy tales. Eowyn strikes Witch King of Angmar, Sam defeats Shelob, 22 X-Wing + 8 Y-Wing + Millenium Falcon can explode a Death Star in Battle of Yavin etc.
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I finally saw the movie yesterday and I honestly liked it more than I thought I would have. I loved how they kept true to the aesthetic of the older movies, the opening shots of the imperial star destroyer or all of the wreckage at Jakku and the cantina scenes for example. The 3D didn't feels forced to me, which doesn't happen a lot.
Loved the fact that some of the computers that some First Order minions use (all of the technology really) still look the way they did in the older movies, just a few buttons and blinking lights. Also liked how the cockpit shots that showed the pilots were a bit gritty or at least not super clean.
The characters were mostly great IMO (tho Kylo Ren should've kept his helmet on but I guess they needed to show his age), the appeal to nostalgia with the returning cast was fun without being too much and above all it really felt like a Star Wars movie to me.
Only criticism I have is that maybe they did too much in one movie, destroying the death star (death planet?) in one episode might be a bit too fast.
I have to admit I was scared when in the opening scene, the dying stormtrooper left a trail of bloody fingers across Finn's helmet (to distinguish him from the other stormtroopers probably but still) in the most campy way. looked like it came straight out of a parody.
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On December 24 2015 11:43 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 09:25 KobraKay wrote:
I have another one but this one really shows my starwars noobiness....I always thought that in order to use a light saber one had to have some knowledge or some force "flowing inside" already...yet Fin picks that shit up, presses a button (?) and voila, its just like any other melee weapon (in which he has training) but looks cooler. My world was shattered lol
r. No you don't need force to open up a lightsaber, even a clueless Luke turned it on on EPIV, There are a lot of times in Starwars EU that happened. I remember Darth Maul fighthing this assasin with a batton type lightsaber, even the kids on Jedi vs Sith series, those random kids picked up a light saber.
Yeah. What did you expect?
![[image loading]](http://thementalattic.files.wordpress.com/2014/04/star-wars-luke-lightsaber-in-eye-obi-wan-kenobi.jpg)
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On December 24 2015 17:51 andrewlt wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 12:24 FuzzyJAM wrote:
But because the entire world building is non-existent and the audience is just lost from the start and never gets any sort of bearing, we lose trust in the film. Just because you are lost doesn't mean the rest of us are. It's a 2-hour movie. Part of the magic of movie making is showing only the most important things to advance the plot or to stir the emotions of moviegoers. Your imagination is supposed to fill in the rest of the details. You're looking for a level of detail that the general movie going public is just going to find uninteresting. The Song of Ice and Fire series is around 4000 pages now and it doesn't even go over everything. There are some things you can only find out by perusing the appendices. Movies don't have appendices. Here's a thought exercise. Think of a way to include all the information you are looking for in the movie without boring the audience. No long expository speeches. Estimate the time it takes to show those on film. Now how long would the movie be?
Oh, I'm absolutely not saying we should have these things explained. I'm saying we shouldn't have so many things needing explaining in the first place. Compare this film to A New Hope, where you're excellently situated from the opening crawl and know everything you need to about the struggle. Mystery in that film is directed at the universe in general, not triggered by specific events or relating to the actual plot. There's a big difference to me. As far as I'm concerned, major elements of the plot needed a total rewrite or removal. If your plot and setting are not simple enough to make sense of in two hours then they're not suitable for a two hour film.
But if Disney are confident that we absolutely need characters like Glasses Yoda and the details of their plot to have a Death Star 3 are too fabulous to change, then at the very least they could tell us who the First Order, Resistance and Republic are and how they relate from the opening crawl and a few sentences of expository dialogue. Again, if this is not at all possible, then they need a rewrite.
And to reiterate something I've said bunch of times: if people love the film then that's totally cool. If these aren't issues you had, that's fine. But these are issues I (and other people I've talked to) had so I'll discuss them.
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I really had a problem with the pacing of the movie. It was just GOGOGO the whole time. Nobody ever took a moment to stop and think about what was going on. I mean, it felt like there was practically NO dialogue to that effect. Like someone mentioned, no one ever stopped to say, hey, just who IS this girl that's mysteriously good at everything? If you go back and watch the pacing in the original trilogy, it's totally different... also, SW7: the fanservicing awakens, basically. OH, AND KILLING HAN?? My childhood. It's been wounded forever.
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For me it comes down to this; I don't care for all the bad points the film had because all I wanted was a SW movie and this is definitelly a SW movie (unlike the PT), and also to see my childhood heroes once again. The film delivered.
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Saw it last night, for me it was really good. I liked Kylo Ren and I expect a lot from that character on episode VIII and IX.
The music, the battles... The only thing I didn't like was the Stormtrooper general, she is from GoT and I expected more from her character.
9/10
Edit: I'm going to change it to 8/10 because I forgot about the bad guy, the giant hologram... Was lame.
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Pretty much NukeD. The movie leaves me wanting to see more from these characters while continuing to build upon the Star Wars universe.
Once we have all 3 movies, I suspect people will look back on this movie in a more positive light. At least that's my hope. A lot of smart people working on these projects.
On December 24 2015 18:26 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 17:51 andrewlt wrote:On December 24 2015 12:24 FuzzyJAM wrote:
But because the entire world building is non-existent and the audience is just lost from the start and never gets any sort of bearing, we lose trust in the film. Here's a thought exercise. Think of a way to include all the information you are looking for in the movie without boring the audience. No long expository speeches. Estimate the time it takes to show those on film. Now how long would the movie be? The same length. You just get rid of most of the Men in Black 2 stuff with the rathtars.
So lets cut one of the actual world building scenes from the movie for more world building. Right.
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On December 25 2015 00:16 NukeD wrote:
For me it comes down to this; I don't care for all the bad points the film had because all I wanted was a SW movie and this is definitelly a SW movie (unlike the PT), and also to see my childhood heroes once again. The film delivered.
I guess that's the thing. Maybe I am just not that much into Star Wars. I watched all the movies, I played KotoR and Jedi Knight and had some Lego toys as a child and I really like the universe.
But the main priority for me was to watch a good movie, and not a movie with as much Star Wars (from the old movies) shoved into it as possible.
And TFA just isn't a good movie to me. It's ok I guess but if it wasn't a Star Wars movie, it would be forgotten in a couple of months.
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EPT
