On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote: Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon.
Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"?
You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword.
Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't.
She trained melee combat as seen before. She even has a staff since whoever knows when. Kylo Ren probably isn't the best lightsaber fighter ever, he was wounded and mentally unstable after killing his father. Rey clearly knows how to fight with melee weapons, a lightsaber is just that. I don't understand the problem here.
Her being so good with the force out of nowhere might be a problem i could understand, but fighting with a melee weapon? I guess people just overvalue the lightsaber greatly for some reason, to me it always was a cooler looking sword.
Again, there is a difference between fighting someone who's experienced with melee weapons, and fighting a Force user. The Force user has reflexes way beyond any human.
I didn't see these reflexes in the old movies. This over the top bs fighting was prominent in the prequels and i am happy that JJ understands that it was just bad. Rey also is a force user. Again, there is no problem.
Her being good at using the force out of nowhere is something which actually has some merit to discuss. Her beating Kylo in the lightsaber fight? Absolutely not.
We see Luke deflect laser shots in RotJ. This requires reflexes/a level of force awareness which matters in a lightsaber fight.
Rey has not been training for years in using the Force. Kylo Ren has.
Kylo does the same in this movie. That still doesn't mean you are a godly lightsaber figher. Luke wasn't either in the OT. Far from it. Kylo lost that fight because of multiple factors, i won't rename every single one of them, i already did that like 5 times. If you cannot accept that these points are valid, then so be it i guess.
I know that Kylo does the same in this movie, which is the entire point. He, too, has trained in the use of the Force. He, too, has deliberately honed those kind of reflexes over time. He, too, has been using a lightsaber for years, and is experienced in using it as a Force user. Rey defeating Ren after picking up on the Force five minutes earlier (and focusing intensely for five seconds during the fight after Ren conveniently reminded her of the Force's existence) is utterly ridiculous to me, regardless of his injury & instability. It shouldn't even be close enough for his injury to matter. If it isn't ridiculous to you, so be it I guess ,-)
My point was (at least one of them) that while Luke did what you said, he also wasn't very impressive with the lightsaber. Being strong with the force and being a good lightsaber fighter (let's be real, it's a melee weapon, a sword.) are two different things. Kylo Ren probably almost never used his lightsaber when doing stuff for the new order, why should he? He can just use the force and nobody could ever challenge him regarless. Rey trained melee fighting her whole life probably. Ren's style isn't very technical to begin with. He also isn't mentally collected at all. Kylo's whole premise is that he isn't the evil badass of all the other star wars movies. He has huge potential (as seen with his force tricks when he is 'calm') but he simply isn't the uber boss a lot of people probably expected. I feel like a lot of people will be extremely disappointed when we see Luke in action....^^
On December 24 2015 04:31 Plansix wrote: I can't nail down the time line, but a lot people say that Ren was turns at like 13. Though it isn't clear if when he kills Luke's students. There is that shot of him with a bunch of other people, who we assume are the "Knights of Ren". So I assume that he got turned, trained, came back and killed the students while Luke was away. I doubt there are a direct confrontation. And then after that they put Rey in hiding, so she is like 4-5 year younger than Ren.
On December 24 2015 04:24 AngryMag wrote: Because you guys bring up the sword fights, which, i personally didn't find bad. I just have one question regarding timeline and if there might be a plothole, just came to my mind: + Show Spoiler +
They said That Ren used to be trained by Skywalker until he turned towards the Dark Side in his puberty. Now he is pretty young in the movie, let's say early 20's.. This basically means that Skywalker cannot be gone for so long because Solo and Leia send their kid to him for training. Isn't it specifically said that Skywalker is long gone basically long enough that no one remembers the Jedi? And isn't R2D2 in energy saving mode for a long time? How is training Ren and be gone forever brought together in the movie's timeline?
The same way that from 3 to 4 people forgot the jedi have real powers despite seeing them walk around on battlefields 2 decades ago. The star wars universe has the attention span of a goldfish.
Also galaxies are huge and may people never see a Jedi. And even if you did, who would believe you. "No, there was totally this guy with a laser sword blocking shots and he was unstoppable," says one armed trooper in the medical bay.
Your telling me an intergalactic war happened where armies of clones are led by the noble jedi order and people do not see footage of this on every news channel?
This is like saying that a modern person does not know about the vietnam war. It just doesnt happen.
On December 24 2015 04:31 Plansix wrote: I can't nail down the time line, but a lot people say that Ren was turns at like 13. Though it isn't clear if when he kills Luke's students. There is that shot of him with a bunch of other people, who we assume are the "Knights of Ren". So I assume that he got turned, trained, came back and killed the students while Luke was away. I doubt there are a direct confrontation. And then after that they put Rey in hiding, so she is like 4-5 year younger than Ren.
Or I am totally wrong.
On December 24 2015 04:28 Gorsameth wrote:
On December 24 2015 04:24 AngryMag wrote: Because you guys bring up the sword fights, which, i personally didn't find bad. I just have one question regarding timeline and if there might be a plothole, just came to my mind: + Show Spoiler +
They said That Ren used to be trained by Skywalker until he turned towards the Dark Side in his puberty. Now he is pretty young in the movie, let's say early 20's.. This basically means that Skywalker cannot be gone for so long because Solo and Leia send their kid to him for training. Isn't it specifically said that Skywalker is long gone basically long enough that no one remembers the Jedi? And isn't R2D2 in energy saving mode for a long time? How is training Ren and be gone forever brought together in the movie's timeline?
The same way that from 3 to 4 people forgot the jedi have real powers despite seeing them walk around on battlefields 2 decades ago. The star wars universe has the attention span of a goldfish.
Also galaxies are huge and may people never see a Jedi. And even if you did, who would believe you. "No, there was totally this guy with a laser sword blocking shots and he was unstoppable," says one armed trooper in the medical bay.
Your telling me an intergalactic war happened where armies of clones are led by the noble jedi order and people do not see footage of this on every news channel?
This is like saying that a modern person does not know about the vietnam war. It just doesnt happen.
Are you telling me that the space nazis that took over after the war and hunted down those Jedi didn't purge them from the records? Space Nazis, like normal Nazis, lords of propaganda, but with space tech. Lead by a Vader.
So yeah, I find it totally believable that in a generation people would have forgotten about the jedi or assumed they were made up.
On December 24 2015 04:54 The_Red_Viper wrote: I think Kylo is supposed to be around 28-30 (iirc i read that somewhere) and Rey is about 20. That would mean that Luke was gone around 15 years.
On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote: [quote] Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"?
You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword.
Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't.
She trained melee combat as seen before. She even has a staff since whoever knows when. Kylo Ren probably isn't the best lightsaber fighter ever, he was wounded and mentally unstable after killing his father. Rey clearly knows how to fight with melee weapons, a lightsaber is just that. I don't understand the problem here.
Her being so good with the force out of nowhere might be a problem i could understand, but fighting with a melee weapon? I guess people just overvalue the lightsaber greatly for some reason, to me it always was a cooler looking sword.
Again, there is a difference between fighting someone who's experienced with melee weapons, and fighting a Force user. The Force user has reflexes way beyond any human.
I didn't see these reflexes in the old movies. This over the top bs fighting was prominent in the prequels and i am happy that JJ understands that it was just bad. Rey also is a force user. Again, there is no problem.
Her being good at using the force out of nowhere is something which actually has some merit to discuss. Her beating Kylo in the lightsaber fight? Absolutely not.
We see Luke deflect laser shots in RotJ. This requires reflexes/a level of force awareness which matters in a lightsaber fight.
Rey has not been training for years in using the Force. Kylo Ren has.
Kylo does the same in this movie. That still doesn't mean you are a godly lightsaber figher. Luke wasn't either in the OT. Far from it. Kylo lost that fight because of multiple factors, i won't rename every single one of them, i already did that like 5 times. If you cannot accept that these points are valid, then so be it i guess.
I know that Kylo does the same in this movie, which is the entire point. He, too, has trained in the use of the Force. He, too, has deliberately honed those kind of reflexes over time. He, too, has been using a lightsaber for years, and is experienced in using it as a Force user. Rey defeating Ren after picking up on the Force five minutes earlier (and focusing intensely for five seconds during the fight after Ren conveniently reminded her of the Force's existence) is utterly ridiculous to me, regardless of his injury & instability. It shouldn't even be close enough for his injury to matter. If it isn't ridiculous to you, so be it I guess ,-)
My point was (at least one of them) that while Luke did what you said, he also wasn't very impressive with the lightsaber. Being strong with the force and being a good lightsaber fighter (let's be real, it's a melee weapon, a sword.) are two different things. Kylo Ren probably almost never used his lightsaber when doing stuff for the new order, why should he? He can just use the force and nobody could ever challenge him regarless. Rey trained melee fighting her whole life probably. Ren's style isn't very technical to begin with. He also isn't mentally collected at all. Kylo's whole premise is that he isn't the evil badass of all the other star wars movies. He has huge potential (as seen with his force tricks when he is 'calm') but he simply isn't the uber boss a lot of people probably expected. I feel like a lot of people will be extremely disappointed when we see Luke in action....^^
They're not two completely different things, precisely because being good with the Force allows you to improve at lightsaber fighting (better reflexes etc.). In fact, even TFA itself acknowledges this, since we see Rey turn the tide against Kylo after focusing on her connection to the Force for a few seconds. We can't just assume that Kylo Ren "almost never used his lightsaber when doing stuff for the new order". There would have been plenty of reasons for him to train using it (perhaps to prepare for a duel with Luke, to pay homage to Vader, to feel stronger, etc.), so we can't assume one way or the other. What we do know is that he does use his lightsaber, that he trained under Luke, and that he has been using the Force since. I have no problem with Kylo Ren being unstable, unsure of himself, not fully-trained, etc. I do have a problem with him being used as the butt of a few jokes (the stormtroopers turning heels, for example), getting injured by Finn that he should have defeated instantly, and getting defeated handily by Force-newbie Rey. If you're going to prop up Rey, make her able to stand her ground temporarily until an outside event interrupts the fight (not a lazy crevasse like in the movie, though).
On December 24 2015 04:31 Plansix wrote: I can't nail down the time line, but a lot people say that Ren was turns at like 13. Though it isn't clear if when he kills Luke's students. There is that shot of him with a bunch of other people, who we assume are the "Knights of Ren". So I assume that he got turned, trained, came back and killed the students while Luke was away. I doubt there are a direct confrontation. And then after that they put Rey in hiding, so she is like 4-5 year younger than Ren.
Or I am totally wrong.
On December 24 2015 04:28 Gorsameth wrote:
On December 24 2015 04:24 AngryMag wrote: Because you guys bring up the sword fights, which, i personally didn't find bad. I just have one question regarding timeline and if there might be a plothole, just came to my mind: + Show Spoiler +
They said That Ren used to be trained by Skywalker until he turned towards the Dark Side in his puberty. Now he is pretty young in the movie, let's say early 20's.. This basically means that Skywalker cannot be gone for so long because Solo and Leia send their kid to him for training. Isn't it specifically said that Skywalker is long gone basically long enough that no one remembers the Jedi? And isn't R2D2 in energy saving mode for a long time? How is training Ren and be gone forever brought together in the movie's timeline?
The same way that from 3 to 4 people forgot the jedi have real powers despite seeing them walk around on battlefields 2 decades ago. The star wars universe has the attention span of a goldfish.
Also galaxies are huge and may people never see a Jedi. And even if you did, who would believe you. "No, there was totally this guy with a laser sword blocking shots and he was unstoppable," says one armed trooper in the medical bay.
Your telling me an intergalactic war happened where armies of clones are led by the noble jedi order and people do not see footage of this on every news channel?
This is like saying that a modern person does not know about the vietnam war. It just doesnt happen.
Even high-ranking Imperial personnel - who have dealings with Vader, no less - consider it to be "a sad devotion to an ancient religion".
On December 24 2015 04:31 Plansix wrote: I can't nail down the time line, but a lot people say that Ren was turns at like 13. Though it isn't clear if when he kills Luke's students. There is that shot of him with a bunch of other people, who we assume are the "Knights of Ren". So I assume that he got turned, trained, came back and killed the students while Luke was away. I doubt there are a direct confrontation. And then after that they put Rey in hiding, so she is like 4-5 year younger than Ren.
Or I am totally wrong.
On December 24 2015 04:28 Gorsameth wrote:
On December 24 2015 04:24 AngryMag wrote: Because you guys bring up the sword fights, which, i personally didn't find bad. I just have one question regarding timeline and if there might be a plothole, just came to my mind: + Show Spoiler +
They said That Ren used to be trained by Skywalker until he turned towards the Dark Side in his puberty. Now he is pretty young in the movie, let's say early 20's.. This basically means that Skywalker cannot be gone for so long because Solo and Leia send their kid to him for training. Isn't it specifically said that Skywalker is long gone basically long enough that no one remembers the Jedi? And isn't R2D2 in energy saving mode for a long time? How is training Ren and be gone forever brought together in the movie's timeline?
The same way that from 3 to 4 people forgot the jedi have real powers despite seeing them walk around on battlefields 2 decades ago. The star wars universe has the attention span of a goldfish.
Also galaxies are huge and may people never see a Jedi. And even if you did, who would believe you. "No, there was totally this guy with a laser sword blocking shots and he was unstoppable," says one armed trooper in the medical bay.
Your telling me an intergalactic war happened where armies of clones are led by the noble jedi order and people do not see footage of this on every news channel?
This is like saying that a modern person does not know about the vietnam war. It just doesnt happen.
This is a failing of the Prequels that did not properly project backwards. There really is no way that people could have forgotten about the Jedi in 18 years, but I suspect the temptation to show the Jedi and the height of their power was rather great. But the reality is this is one of several points where the two trilogies did not connect very well.
Finally watched Episode VII in the IMAX so I can start contributing in this thread again (just caught up on the last few days worth of pages.)
Just saw the movie and yeah... gonna watch the next one as I'm interested how the story is going to unfold but I don't rate this one too highly.
Main problem is Kylo but most of my thoughts were already articulated by TerransHill. he's angry - look whiny and smash things he's fighting - look whiny and smash things he's using the force - look whiny and make gestures he's whiny - look whiny (he nailed that one) Sure he's a teen, unsure and I get that it's a really great story about his inner conflict but i'd like if he was 25% less like me and more like a villain. Although I can't rule out that the actor is just one of those persons whose mimics I'm not able to grasp.
Whatever I got a question that might be easily answered but I haven't seen a Star Wars movie in ages and most likely never cared about that one: Kylo instantly noticed his father entering the atmosphere but neither was he able to find the new force user who fled (possibly his most important task at that moment) nor did he show any sign of alertness when his father walked 10m behind him. Feeling others has to do with the force, no? If so, can the force only acknowledge a presence but not localize it?
The force powers turn off when a narrative device like hiding is important. Remember that Luke hid from Vader in the last battle of RotJ. When they "sense someones presence" its doubtful they even know the direction. Its just a feeling that the person is near. But at the end of the day, the director and writer are doing to forgo the vague powers of the force if they need to frame a good shot.
Regarding Finn vs Ren. Ren is clearly toying with Finn just swinging one hand he just got careless and got hit. After he got hit he went to "im done with you little shit" and finished Finn instantly. simple as that.
On December 24 2015 04:54 The_Red_Viper wrote: Being strong with the force and being a good lightsaber fighter (let's be real, it's a melee weapon, a sword.)
Main problem is Kylo but most of my thoughts were already articulated by TerransHill. he's angry - look whiny and smash things he's fighting - look whiny and smash things he's using the force - look whiny and make gestures he's whiny - look whiny (he nailed that one) .
On December 24 2015 07:17 smr wrote: Just saw the movie and yeah... gonna watch the next one as I'm interested how the story is going to unfold but I don't rate this one too highly.
Main problem is Kylo but most of my thoughts were already articulated by TerransHill. he's angry - look whiny and smash things he's fighting - look whiny and smash things he's using the force - look whiny and make gestures he's whiny - look whiny (he nailed that one) Sure he's a teen, unsure and I get that it's a really great story about his inner conflict but i'd like if he was 25% less like me and more like a villain. Although I can't rule out that the actor is just one of those persons whose mimics I'm not able to grasp.
Whatever I got a question that might be easily answered but I haven't seen a Star Wars movie in ages and most likely never cared about that one: Kylo instantly noticed his father entering the atmosphere but neither was he able to find the new force user who fled (possibly his most important task at that moment) nor did he show any sign of alertness when his father walked 10m behind him. Feeling others has to do with the force, no? If so, can the force only acknowledge a presence but not localize it?
How they fix that is by making the story where he keeps his helmet on xD With his helmet i genuinely was like oh fuck this guy is scary ahh mini vadar esc blahblah. Then takes it off and looks like some posh rich kid and u like....oh ok then lol
On December 24 2015 04:31 Plansix wrote: I can't nail down the time line, but a lot people say that Ren was turns at like 13. Though it isn't clear if when he kills Luke's students. There is that shot of him with a bunch of other people, who we assume are the "Knights of Ren". So I assume that he got turned, trained, came back and killed the students while Luke was away. I doubt there are a direct confrontation. And then after that they put Rey in hiding, so she is like 4-5 year younger than Ren.
Or I am totally wrong.
On December 24 2015 04:28 Gorsameth wrote:
On December 24 2015 04:24 AngryMag wrote: Because you guys bring up the sword fights, which, i personally didn't find bad. I just have one question regarding timeline and if there might be a plothole, just came to my mind: + Show Spoiler +
They said That Ren used to be trained by Skywalker until he turned towards the Dark Side in his puberty. Now he is pretty young in the movie, let's say early 20's.. This basically means that Skywalker cannot be gone for so long because Solo and Leia send their kid to him for training. Isn't it specifically said that Skywalker is long gone basically long enough that no one remembers the Jedi? And isn't R2D2 in energy saving mode for a long time? How is training Ren and be gone forever brought together in the movie's timeline?
The same way that from 3 to 4 people forgot the jedi have real powers despite seeing them walk around on battlefields 2 decades ago. The star wars universe has the attention span of a goldfish.
Also galaxies are huge and may people never see a Jedi. And even if you did, who would believe you. "No, there was totally this guy with a laser sword blocking shots and he was unstoppable," says one armed trooper in the medical bay.
Your telling me an intergalactic war happened where armies of clones are led by the noble jedi order and people do not see footage of this on every news channel?
This is like saying that a modern person does not know about the vietnam war. It just doesnt happen.
This is a failing of the Prequels that did not properly project backwards. There really is no way that people could have forgotten about the Jedi in 18 years, but I suspect the temptation to show the Jedi and the height of their power was rather great. But the reality is this is one of several points where the two trilogies did not connect very well.
Finally watched Episode VII in the IMAX so I can start contributing in this thread again (just caught up on the last few days worth of pages.)
Yeah, the Jedi depiction in the prequels really mess up the originals and create a raft of inconsistencies. It's one of the many reasons they are awful films: not only are they bad in themselves, if you take them seriously they actually make the originals worse.
Alright. I LOVED the first third or first half, but only liked the last half or so. I think my final evaluation will really depend on where they go with VII. Is there some cool groundwork being laid here or is there going to be bad pay off like the 3rd Hobbit.
I think the hero characters are as strong as we have gotten a long time. They are engaging, sympathetic, and funny. I love everything about Jakku and the world building done there. The comedy is golden- Ren's temper blow outs are a tad much for me, but the stormies reaction to it was hilarious.
I love Rey and I love, love, love BB-8. It's amazing how much personality they get out of that beach ball. (When he zaps Fin, omg. )
My big question is was this simply a re-establishing, a giving tribute to the 4th or are we going to get super weapon of the week? If the first, and we get non-super weapon plots from here on in, I'm on board. But if the second, we've already been down this road with the EU and, to me, this was the great chance to right the wrongs of the EU... not make the exact same mistakes.+ Show Spoiler +
I'd say seeing the Death Planet (basically Centerpoint Station) is where I went from loving the film to liking the film. It didn't help that the Rebels were all "Right. It's a super weapon. We've done this before... you get the shields, we'll blow stuff up on the outside aaaand Break!" The fact that the Rebels didn't even feel the need to evacuate the planet lessened the threat, making the Death Planet feel perfunctory. I was waiting for the other shoe to drop when they find out it really isn't that easy- we kinda got that in that they needed help from the inside, but not really by much. But, I was only mildly disappointed- if this is the last super weapon plot, then I'm fine with this film.
I found the villains lacking- at least after the reveal. I get what they are trying to do, and if they really level up in the next film, then I think I am okay with what I am seeing here. The idea of one seeing a not yet powerful evil overlord is neat. I also like two villains competing for favour from their master... Shadows of the Empire did something similar with Vader and Xizor. But the general seemed out of his league and something didn't quite sit right with me in the execution of Ren... I couldn't tell you why just now. But if those two come back with vengeance, I'll be okay with what I see now. I think the general needs to start outwitting the Rebels, because he is really outclassed... he's the Admiral Motti, but we need a Vader or a Tarkin. Both basically lack the gravitas of threatening villains- there's some cool stuff going with their motivation and coming to power, but it's at the cost of being as threatening as past villains... perhaps a placeholder villain was needed over top of them while they find their footing. (A boots on the ground villain, I mean.) I don't know. Something didn't quite sit right and I'm not sure the what the solution is- maybe it's because I don't know the end.
I think this film gave us the best example of the up and close evil of the Empire during the first third. Yes, IV's Empire blew up Alderaan, but we were never on planet- the level of destruction by the First Order was really visceral and well done.
A map would have been nice. Just once. Unlike all the other movies, I could not visualize what was going on in the galaxy... and considering it's been 30 years since Return of the Jedi, a little update would've been nice. (By comparison, IV, it's clear the Empire controls almost everything and the Rebels are striking from hidden bases. From I it's clear the Republic controls almost everything, but then we run into the edge of their territory out in Tatooine. Both are easy to picture. I'm completely in the dark as to the relative strength of the Republic/ First Order and what the hell happened after the Battle of Endor, and I don't think it's a good sort of confusion because I can't picture what is going on.) It's fine to be confused at the beginning because Rey wouldn't know anything big picture... that's why tell stories through the eyes of Bilbo or Frodo type characters. She runs into so many characters that ought to know what is going on. Just fire up a galactic map and show blue section for Republic, Red for First Order and Green for Resistance. Bam. Done.
Han was such a staple in the EU that it was quite hard to seem him go the first film back. He got brought back for this? However, the more I think about it, the more I am fine with it. Fun Han is young Han, which you can get in the books, but not on screen any more with Harrison Ford. I think they set up Rey as a good replacement (Han offering her a job as well as saying that Chewie likes her. Plus, the pay off for that scene was definitely Chewie going berserk mode and shooting Ren in the leg. We didn't get vengeance, but was feeling some onscreen justice with an epic Chewie moment. The feels.
On the whole I enjoyed the film, though I am withholding final judgement for when I see the next installment.
Hi guys....I just watched the film and besides don't liking the whole RvR with the newbie R winning, I have two questions that maybe proper starwars fans (I'm just someone who enjoys the movies ) may already have an answer to:
1 - the super weapon (the planet that drinks the sun) can move? So it is like a planet with jets to move around? Because otherwise, how can it fire twice "in a row" if it needs AN ENTIRE SUN to charge?
2 - Am I wrong in remembering that one of Anakin's problems was his fear/anger? So how can Rey be so much fueled by anger and revenge and still people are cool with she being the hero jedi and nobody goes "well maybe she should be far away from all the force enthusiasts or we may end up with a girl vader"?
I have another one but this one really shows my starwars noobiness....I always thought that in order to use a light saber one had to have some knowledge or some force "flowing inside" already...yet Fin picks that shit up, presses a button (?) and voila, its just like any other melee weapon (in which he has training) but looks cooler. My world was shattered lol
All in all, it was an enjoyable movie too bad for the story going for much of the same (EP IV big badass gun, bypass shields, destroy cooling stuff, blow up weapon -> win!). Let's see how the rest go.
I think poor KR will get much of the Anakin hate for being a young nemesis in this movie...he showed some temper but I didn't get the feeling of a whiny teen like someone mentioned earlier.
2 - Am I wrong in remembering that one of Anakin's problems was his fear/anger? So how can Rey be so much fueled by anger and revenge and still people are cool with she being the hero jedi and nobody goes "well maybe she should be far away from all the force enthusiasts or we may end up with a girl vader"?
I was actually starting to wonder if Ren was a red herring- that he'd get killed and Rey would become the true villain of the series. + Show Spoiler +
But I think she had a couple moments where she could have killed a defenseless Ren, but didn't. I think her her zen moment was meant for us to see that she was at peace while fighting at the end, rather than out of anger or fear. Before the final chasm opened up, I wish there was a slightly longer pause so that she could deliberately decide to not slay a defenseless Ren (unless she is going to become Darth Rey. The chasm removed the decision too soon.
I have another one but this one really shows my starwars noobiness....I always thought that in order to use a light saber one had to have some knowledge or some force "flowing inside" already...yet Fin picks that shit up, presses a button (?) and voila, its just like any other melee weapon (in which he has training) but looks cooler. My world was shattered lol
I have heard this- usually to explain how Jedi can wield a blade that weighs nothing. However, this explanation seems to completely miss Han Solo opening up the Tauntaun on Hoth.
On December 24 2015 09:04 Falling wrote: Alright. I LOVED the first third or first half, but only liked the last half or so. I think my final evaluation will really depend on where they go with VII. Is there some cool groundwork being laid here or is there going to be bad pay off like the 3rd Hobbit.
I think the hero characters are as strong as we have gotten a long time. They are engaging, sympathetic, and funny. I love everything about Jakku and the world building done there. The comedy is golden- Ren's temper blow outs are a tad much for me, but the stormies reaction to it was hilarious.
I love Rey and I love, love, love BB-8. It's amazing how much personality they get out of that beach ball. (When he zaps Fin, omg. )
My big question is was this simply a re-establishing, a giving tribute to the 4th or are we going to get super weapon of the week? If the first, and we get non-super weapon plots from here on in, I'm on board. But if the second, we've already been down this road with the EU and, to me, this was the great chance to right the wrongs of the EU... not make the exact same mistakes.+ Show Spoiler +
I'd say seeing the Death Planet (basically Centerpoint Station) is where I went from loving the film to liking the film. It didn't help that the Rebels were all "Right. It's a super weapon. We've done this before... you get the shields, we'll blow stuff up on the outside aaaand Break!" The fact that the Rebels didn't even feel the need to evacuate the planet lessened the threat, making the Death Planet feel perfunctory. I was waiting for the other shoe to drop when they find out it really isn't that easy- we kinda got that in that they needed help from the inside, but not really by much. But, I was only mildly disappointed- if this is the last super weapon plot, then I'm fine with this film.
I found the villains lacking- at least after the reveal. I get what they are trying to do, and if they really level up in the next film, then I think I am okay with what I am seeing here. The idea of one seeing a not yet powerful evil overlord is neat. I also like two villains competing for favour from their master... Shadows of the Empire did something similar with Vader and Xizor. But the general seemed out of his league and something didn't quite sit right with me in the execution of Ren... I couldn't tell you why just now. But if those two come back with vengeance, I'll be okay with what I see now. I think the general needs to start outwitting the Rebels, because he is really outclassed... he's the Admiral Motti, but we need a Vader or a Tarkin. Both basically lack the gravitas of threatening villains- there's some cool stuff going with their motivation and coming to power, but it's at the cost of being as threatening as past villains... perhaps a placeholder villain was needed over top of them while they find their footing. (A boots on the ground villain, I mean.) I don't know. Something didn't quite sit right and I'm not sure the what the solution is- maybe it's because I don't know the end.
I think this film gave us the best example of the up and close evil of the Empire during the first third. Yes, IV's Empire blew up Alderaan, but we were never on planet- the level of destruction by the First Order was really visceral and well done.
A map would have been nice. Just once. Unlike all the other movies, I could not visualize what was going on in the galaxy... and considering it's been 30 years since Return of the Jedi, a little update would've been nice. (By comparison, IV, it's clear the Empire controls almost everything and the Rebels are striking from hidden bases. From I it's clear the Republic controls almost everything, but then we run into the edge of their territory out in Tatooine. Both are easy to picture. I'm completely in the dark as to the relative strength of the Republic/ First Order and what the hell happened after the Battle of Endor, and I don't think it's a good sort of confusion because I can't picture what is going on.) It's fine to be confused at the beginning because Rey wouldn't know anything big picture... that's why tell stories through the eyes of Bilbo or Frodo type characters. She runs into so many characters that ought to know what is going on. Just fire up a galactic map and show blue section for Republic, Red for First Order and Green for Resistance. Bam. Done.
Han was such a staple in the EU that it was quite hard to seem him go the first film back. He got brought back for this? However, the more I think about it, the more I am fine with it. Fun Han is young Han, which you can get in the books, but not on screen any more with Harrison Ford. I think they set up Rey as a good replacement (Han offering her a job as well as saying that Chewie likes her. Plus, the pay off for that scene was definitely Chewie going berserk mode and shooting Ren in the leg. We didn't get vengeance, but was feeling some onscreen justice with an epic Chewie moment. The feels.
On the whole I enjoyed the film, though I am withholding final judgement for when I see the next installment.
Lots of thoughts that i had as well, i agree with a lot of what you wrote. A lot of the "success" of the movie will depend on the next 2 movie, if this was really just some world-building re-using "A new Hope's" scenario and they go a different way from here on then i am completly fine with this.
2 - Am I wrong in remembering that one of Anakin's problems was his fear/anger? So how can Rey be so much fueled by anger and revenge and still people are cool with she being the hero jedi and nobody goes "well maybe she should be far away from all the force enthusiasts or we may end up with a girl vader"?
I was actually starting to wonder if Ren was a red herring- that he'd get killed and Rey would become the true villain of the series. + Show Spoiler +
But I think she had a couple moments where she could have killed a defenseless Ren, but didn't. I think her her zen moment was meant for us to see that she was at peace while fighting at the end, rather than out of anger or fear. Before the final chasm opened up, I wish there was a slightly longer pause so that she could deliberately decide to not slay a defenseless Ren (unless she is going to become Darth Rey. The chasm removed the decision too soon.
I have another one but this one really shows my starwars noobiness....I always thought that in order to use a light saber one had to have some knowledge or some force "flowing inside" already...yet Fin picks that shit up, presses a button (?) and voila, its just like any other melee weapon (in which he has training) but looks cooler. My world was shattered lol
I have heard this- usually to explain how Jedi can wield a blade that weighs nothing. However, this explanation seems to completely miss Han Solo opening up the Tauntaun on Hoth.
At some point I thought that too, after the giant bad dude asked for the girl to be brought to him and seeing her act trough rage I thought well maybe he was just expecting her to appear to turn her bad as there was some prophecy or something but it seems that's not the case. And I can agree with your reasoning of the being at peace in the end. Although I also agree with the last part of the choice being taken from her, thus a door for a bad rey is still open
Regarding the below, yeah completely forgot that move by HS. So yeah, there is precedent, I stand corrected.
On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote: Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon.
Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"?
You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword.
Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't.
She trained melee combat as seen before. She even has a staff since whoever knows when. Kylo Ren probably isn't the best lightsaber fighter ever, he was wounded and mentally unstable after killing his father. Rey clearly knows how to fight with melee weapons, a lightsaber is just that. I don't understand the problem here.
Her being so good with the force out of nowhere might be a problem i could understand, but fighting with a melee weapon? I guess people just overvalue the lightsaber greatly for some reason, to me it always was a cooler looking sword.
This is what I don't think a lot of people who call those offering criticism "nitpickers" don't get: it's not one aspect of the film, taken in isolation, that is being criticised. It's how it contributes in the context to the overall feel of the film. (Well, no doubt there are people who are seriously pissed off that TIE Fighters are different now or something - but it's perfectly possible to criticise without being such a person.)
So, if it were just Rey being a proficient lightsaber fighter - yeah, OK, maybe we'll roll with it. But then combine it with other things about her (pilot, force powers) and you start to lose that sense of belief in the film. This is why a multitude of supposedly minor things matter. It's fine to leave some stuff up to the audience, but when almost the entire scenario is unexplained and the viewer is unable to situate themselves at all, every instance of something that seems kind of odd turns from a "Well there's this explanation - could work - let's carry on" to people simply giving up on the film and losing their suspension of disbelief. Basically, it's fine having the audience do some work, but there comes a point where you're expecting them to come up with the entire story themselves, and when that happens every "minor" incident, which can indeed be explained away on its own, becomes part of a big problem.
If the world made sense, if we actually knew what was going on: if these weren't left to the audience to figure out for themselves (presumably from reading the packing of toys, IDK?), and if there weren't so many of them, then the minor things wouldn't matter because we'd trust the film. But we don't have any reason to trust the film, and so doing the work for ourselves on minor things grates. These criticisms should not be seen as a list of complaints which can be dealt with individually - it's really not about whether there is some possible explanation - it's a bunch of things that explain why the overall feel of the film feels off.
Of course, that's not a problem everyone is going to find with the film. People can like what they like. And I quite enjoyed quite a lot about TFA. But I see some pretty serious problems, and I think it's unfair to make fun of people for that, or act as though they're being crazily anal, when what they're saying is pretty reasonable.
I call it nitpicking, when you have to invest more effort into raising questions, then understanding certain connections.
First of all, let's get the assumed things out of the way, as we all know that as soon as someone starts using an assumption as an argument, then it will surely lead to a clusterfuck, as everyone can just say "but what if...". I am, of course, talking about Rey being a Skywalker. I believe it's 99% given; the movie gives many hints which can be perceived as such, and if you dig deeper, there are even more evidence to it. Now, this would explain everything about Rey, but since we are missing that last 1%, I won't put my eggs in this basket.
Let's see the things which are not just strong speculations:
- Why is Rey so skilled in melee combat? Now, she is a scavanger, living day by day. She goes out hunting, then cashes in, so she won't starve to death. It was shown that on Jakku almost everyone is a greedy bastard, so not exactly your ideal family neighborhood. Everyone wants to cash in and that means competition. It is survival of the fittest, no one will leave treasures untouched, just because another scavenger is already collecting them. Bottom line is, the only reason she is not dead or a sex slave of some disgusting alien is because she is capable of defending herself. Asking why is she that good is nitpicking, because what answer do you expect? Maybe she's talented, maybe she's hard-working, maybe she had prior training, but who cares, honestly? Stop acting like it's a Christmas Miracle if someone is an exceptional duelist.
- Why is Rey a good pilot? When she suggested they take the ship which was eventually blown up, instead of the MF, it was a clear indicator she knows her stuff. It was shown she had an obsession with pilots (Rebel helmet, that thing in her house), so it's rather easy to imagine that whenever she had spare food, she could ask for favors, like borrowing ships, while under surveillance at first, but as she was more recognized, they might even let her fly alone. She also had a shitton of free time, so while practicing with the big ships was probably impossible, as no one would let her fly those, she could still learn about them. Keep in mind she sucked pretty hard with the Millenium Falcon at first, despite the indications that she was aware of this ship type. It's true that after her initial failings, she turned out to be a pretty neat pilot of the Falcon, which is indeed strange. I mean, it's almost like... she has some kind of... unexplained talent... Then again, drawing similiraties between a pod-racer turned super spaceship pilot prodigy, and a casual pilot turned into an X-wing expert prodigy would just be too easy, so let's try to come up with theories which might state why what she did was totally implausible, despite it's not the first and not even the second time we've seen such a thing happening.
- How could she defeat Ren? Obviously the Ren was on the verge of physical and emotional death is not convincing enough, so let's dig deeper. We do not know how strong the Force is in Rey. The first time Ren touched her Force g-spot, she learned to force persuade someone. Only for the third attempt, but it was still something he could not ever believe of doing 5 minutes earlier. Ren was so desperate she touched her mind again, despite by that point he had to know that he is essentially unchaining a beast in hopes of gaining control over it. It was a reckless thing to do, we could even say it was stupid, but Ren was playing by his rules. Well, he successfully gave Rey another Force boost, and this time it backfired on him immidietly. Ren was already fighting with time to begin with, as with each second he became weaker and weaker, so basically he screwed himself over twofold. The only thing Ren had over rey is specific training with the lightsaber. too bad he did not challenge her in a contest of deflecting blaster shots, as he would've easily won that one. Instead, they were dueling, which Rey had already done dozens of times in her lifetime, and she did it versus stronger (than her) opponents and as it was shown at the beginning, even while being outnumbered. People also casually forget that even in real life, we have this thing called adrenaline boost, which can make a superhero out of anyone, and so they are shocked how could the mere awakening of the Force in Rey give her such an edge over Ren in a space fairy-tale.
And don't even get me started on Finn. He was owned by the stormtrooper in 1v1, and he was being toyed with a badly wounded Ren in the lightsaber duel. Finn had zero chance, and as soon as Ren realized that surprise, surprise, being cocky has once again bite him in the ass, he smashed Finn with ease.
Seriously, it's just getting tiring, and you are telling me it's not nitpicking... Certainly not every single criticism are, but come on, some of the things are just plain ridiculous. The only one thing that is debateable is the flying skill of Rey, as I feel that if she turns out to be not a Skywalker somehow, then I'll be the first to admit that it is indeed a bit strange how fast she learned to navigate the MF, because it is just not possible that she had as much opportunity to hone her flying skills as she had with perfecting her dueling ones.
EPT
