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On December 24 2015 03:18 Sbrubbles wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 03:04 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 03:01 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:47 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:38 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote:
Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. Don't tell me what is irrelevant to my own point, thanks. If you are going to respond like this, don't respond to discussions you were not part of. I have stopped responding to your posts, do me the same courtesy. Thanks. The discussion was about the differences between Luke and Rey with regards to their abilities to wield a lightsaber. One the one hand we have Luke who trained a few minutes/hours with Ben, then had quite a bit of time to practice alone, then was trained to become a Jedi by Yoda (and learning to become one with the Force helps in lightsaber use). On the other hand, we have Rey who's apparently good with a staff but holds a lightsaber for the first time time in her life and has no Force training (or at least hasn't held one/hasn't had any since she was a very small kid), and still kicks ass against a trained lightsaber & Force user, who should realistically be destroying her (injured and emotionally unstable as he is). Ok, that wasn’t clear enough, so I am going to be clear now. I don’t care about your opinion or what you have to say about the new movie. It does not matter to me. I disagree all of your views, but respect them so long as you don’t try to push them on me or respond to discussion between other posted I have decided to engage. So stop responding to me and I will do the same for you. Thanks. Wow, someone's up past their bedtime
tbh, I could have been a lot ruder. Discussion online is nice, but there is no real good way to say "I am not interested in what you have to say."
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The reason some of us nitpick is that while every movie has its mistakes a good movie will make you forget/ignore those mistakes. When there is not enough drawing you in your left with those mistakes prominently in your mind and that is where TFA fails for me. Its memorable moments have been done before (and often better) in other movies and ring hollow.
As always opinions are entirely personal and if you enjoy the movie then that's fine and I hope you continue to enjoy the other installments. I just hope the story gets better.
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On December 24 2015 03:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 03:18 Sbrubbles wrote:On December 24 2015 03:04 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 03:01 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:47 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:38 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote:
Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. Don't tell me what is irrelevant to my own point, thanks. If you are going to respond like this, don't respond to discussions you were not part of. I have stopped responding to your posts, do me the same courtesy. Thanks. The discussion was about the differences between Luke and Rey with regards to their abilities to wield a lightsaber. One the one hand we have Luke who trained a few minutes/hours with Ben, then had quite a bit of time to practice alone, then was trained to become a Jedi by Yoda (and learning to become one with the Force helps in lightsaber use). On the other hand, we have Rey who's apparently good with a staff but holds a lightsaber for the first time time in her life and has no Force training (or at least hasn't held one/hasn't had any since she was a very small kid), and still kicks ass against a trained lightsaber & Force user, who should realistically be destroying her (injured and emotionally unstable as he is). Ok, that wasn’t clear enough, so I am going to be clear now. I don’t care about your opinion or what you have to say about the new movie. It does not matter to me. I disagree all of your views, but respect them so long as you don’t try to push them on me or respond to discussion between other posted I have decided to engage. So stop responding to me and I will do the same for you. Thanks. Wow, someone's up past their bedtime tbh, I could have been a lot ruder. Discussion online is nice, but there is no real good way to say "I am not interested in what you have to say."
True enough
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On December 24 2015 03:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 03:18 Sbrubbles wrote:On December 24 2015 03:04 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 03:01 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:47 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:38 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote:
Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. Don't tell me what is irrelevant to my own point, thanks. If you are going to respond like this, don't respond to discussions you were not part of. I have stopped responding to your posts, do me the same courtesy. Thanks. The discussion was about the differences between Luke and Rey with regards to their abilities to wield a lightsaber. One the one hand we have Luke who trained a few minutes/hours with Ben, then had quite a bit of time to practice alone, then was trained to become a Jedi by Yoda (and learning to become one with the Force helps in lightsaber use). On the other hand, we have Rey who's apparently good with a staff but holds a lightsaber for the first time time in her life and has no Force training (or at least hasn't held one/hasn't had any since she was a very small kid), and still kicks ass against a trained lightsaber & Force user, who should realistically be destroying her (injured and emotionally unstable as he is). Ok, that wasn’t clear enough, so I am going to be clear now. I don’t care about your opinion or what you have to say about the new movie. It does not matter to me. I disagree all of your views, but respect them so long as you don’t try to push them on me or respond to discussion between other posted I have decided to engage. So stop responding to me and I will do the same for you. Thanks. Wow, someone's up past their bedtime tbh, I could have been a lot ruder. Discussion online is nice, but there is no real good way to say "I am not interested in what you have to say."
Yes there is. You ignore them.
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On December 24 2015 03:21 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 02:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:38 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote:
Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. She trained melee combat as seen before. She even has a staff since whoever knows when. Kylo Ren probably isn't the best lightsaber fighter ever, he was wounded and mentally unstable after killing his father. Rey clearly knows how to fight with melee weapons, a lightsaber is just that. I don't understand the problem here. Her being so good with the force out of nowhere might be a problem i could understand, but fighting with a melee weapon? I guess people just overvalue the lightsaber greatly for some reason, to me it always was a cooler looking sword. This is what I don't think a lot of people who call those offering criticism "nitpickers" don't get: it's not one aspect of the film, taken in isolation, that is being criticised. It's how it contributes in the context to the overall feel of the film. (Well, no doubt there are people who are seriously pissed off that TIE Fighters are different now or something - but it's perfectly possible to criticise without being such a person.) So, if it were just Rey being a proficient lightsaber fighter - yeah, OK, maybe we'll roll with it. But then combine it with other things about her (pilot, force powers) and you start to lose that sense of belief in the film. This is why a multitude of supposedly minor things matter. It's fine to leave some stuff up to the audience, but when almost the entire scenario is unexplained and the viewer is unable to situate themselves at all, every instance of something that seems kind of odd turns from a "Well there's this explanation - could work - let's carry on" to people simply giving up on the film and losing their suspension of disbelief. Basically, it's fine having the audience do some work, but there comes a point where you're expecting them to come up with the entire story themselves, and when that happens every "minor" incident, which can indeed be explained away on its own, becomes part of a big problem. If the world made sense, if we actually knew what was going on: if these weren't left to the audience to figure out for themselves (presumably from reading the packing of toys, IDK?), and if there weren't so many of them, then the minor things wouldn't matter because we'd trust the film. But we don't have any reason to trust the film, and so doing the work for ourselves on minor things grates. These criticisms should not be seen as a list of complaints which can be dealt with individually - it's really not about whether there is some possible explanation - it's a bunch of things that explain why the overall feel of the film feels off. Of course, that's not a problem everyone is going to find with the film. People can like what they like. And I quite enjoyed quite a lot about TFA. But I see some pretty serious problems, and I think it's unfair to make fun of people for that, or act as though they're being crazily anal, when what they're saying is pretty reasonable.
The criticism is fine, but the key is that people are sort of rehashing the same criticism which other folks have responded to. So it becomes this circular discussion that never moves forward or gets beyond these surface points. And after the 7-8th person has brought up the same points, people respond more dismissively because they are tired of talking about the same thing. If two people are discussing about liking the light saber duels and someone responds with “They didn’t make sense, Rey wasn’t trained,” after that has been discussed 5 times already, people get frustrated and use words like “nitpicking”.
And the response that of “I don’t see those as flaws and they didn’t bother me,” is completely valid.
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On December 24 2015 03:31 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 03:26 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 03:18 Sbrubbles wrote:On December 24 2015 03:04 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 03:01 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:47 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:38 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote:
Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. Don't tell me what is irrelevant to my own point, thanks. If you are going to respond like this, don't respond to discussions you were not part of. I have stopped responding to your posts, do me the same courtesy. Thanks. The discussion was about the differences between Luke and Rey with regards to their abilities to wield a lightsaber. One the one hand we have Luke who trained a few minutes/hours with Ben, then had quite a bit of time to practice alone, then was trained to become a Jedi by Yoda (and learning to become one with the Force helps in lightsaber use). On the other hand, we have Rey who's apparently good with a staff but holds a lightsaber for the first time time in her life and has no Force training (or at least hasn't held one/hasn't had any since she was a very small kid), and still kicks ass against a trained lightsaber & Force user, who should realistically be destroying her (injured and emotionally unstable as he is). Ok, that wasn’t clear enough, so I am going to be clear now. I don’t care about your opinion or what you have to say about the new movie. It does not matter to me. I disagree all of your views, but respect them so long as you don’t try to push them on me or respond to discussion between other posted I have decided to engage. So stop responding to me and I will do the same for you. Thanks. Wow, someone's up past their bedtime tbh, I could have been a lot ruder. Discussion online is nice, but there is no real good way to say "I am not interested in what you have to say." Yes there is. You ignore them.
They are directly responding to me. I did not engage him, so I don't see the need to ignore him. Sorry of that seems mean, but that is how it works in live discussion.
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On December 24 2015 03:01 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 02:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:38 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote:
Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. She trained melee combat as seen before. She even has a staff since whoever knows when. Kylo Ren probably isn't the best lightsaber fighter ever, he was wounded and mentally unstable after killing his father. Rey clearly knows how to fight with melee weapons, a lightsaber is just that. I don't understand the problem here. Her being so good with the force out of nowhere might be a problem i could understand, but fighting with a melee weapon? I guess people just overvalue the lightsaber greatly for some reason, to me it always was a cooler looking sword. Again, there is a difference between fighting someone who's experienced with melee weapons, and fighting a Force user. The Force user has reflexes way beyond any human.
I didn't see these reflexes in the old movies. This over the top bs fighting was prominent in the prequels and i am happy that JJ understands that it was just bad.
Rey also is a force user.
Again, there is no problem.
Her being good at using the force out of nowhere is something which actually has some merit to discuss. Her beating Kylo in the lightsaber fight? Absolutely not.
On December 24 2015 03:21 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 02:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:38 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote:
Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. She trained melee combat as seen before. She even has a staff since whoever knows when. Kylo Ren probably isn't the best lightsaber fighter ever, he was wounded and mentally unstable after killing his father. Rey clearly knows how to fight with melee weapons, a lightsaber is just that. I don't understand the problem here. Her being so good with the force out of nowhere might be a problem i could understand, but fighting with a melee weapon? I guess people just overvalue the lightsaber greatly for some reason, to me it always was a cooler looking sword. This is what I don't think a lot of people who call those offering criticism "nitpickers" don't get: it's not one aspect of the film, taken in isolation, that is being criticised. It's how it contributes in the context to the overall feel of the film. (Well, no doubt there are people who are seriously pissed off that TIE Fighters are different now or something - but it's perfectly possible to criticise without being such a person.) So, if it were just Rey being a proficient lightsaber fighter - yeah, OK, maybe we'll roll with it. But then combine it with other things about her (pilot, force powers) and you start to lose that sense of belief in the film. This is why a multitude of supposedly minor things matter. It's fine to leave some stuff up to the audience, but when almost the entire scenario is unexplained and the viewer is unable to situate themselves at all, every instance of something that seems kind of odd turns from a "Well there's this explanation - could work - let's carry on" to people simply giving up on the film and losing their suspension of disbelief. Basically, it's fine having the audience do some work, but there comes a point where you're expecting them to come up with the entire story themselves, and when that happens every "minor" incident, which can indeed be explained away on its own, becomes part of a big problem. If the world made sense, if we actually knew what was going on: if these weren't left to the audience to figure out for themselves (presumably from reading the packing of toys, IDK?), and if there weren't so many of them, then the minor things wouldn't matter because we'd trust the film. But we don't have any reason to trust the film, and so doing the work for ourselves on minor things grates. These criticisms should not be seen as a list of complaints which can be dealt with individually - it's really not about whether there is some possible explanation - it's a bunch of things that explain why the overall feel of the film feels off. Of course, that's not a problem everyone is going to find with the film. People can like what they like. And I quite enjoyed quite a lot about TFA. But I see some pretty serious problems, and I think it's unfair to make fun of people for that, or act as though they're being crazily anal, when what they're saying is pretty reasonable.
I too see problems in the movie. It was too fast. I have no idea how much time has passed in it. That actually bothers me.
More slow scenes would have made the movie instantly better.
I too think Rey being so good with the force felt a little bit weird. But if you accept her being good, pretty much all of the other complains are moot.
Maybe she was trained by Luke? If she is a Skywalker she probably has a lot of potential no matter what. Her living on Jakku ON HER OWN probably even trained her one way or another. She isn't just a person who didn't have to deal with anything in her life (like Luke was), she actually had a pretty tough one already.
So yeah i actually think most of the complaints are actually nitpicky as fuck, "mimimi Kylo Ren lost almost to Fin", "mimimi Kylo Ren lost to a girl who ever had a lightsaber in her hand"
There movie gives you actual context, he maybe doesn't explain it to you trough dialogue, BUT YOU CAN SEE IT. Show, don't tell!
I hope there will be some form of directors cut which adds like 10 minutes of slower scenes to it, i think the movie would feel a lot better to most people then.
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On December 24 2015 03:04 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 03:01 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:47 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:38 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote:
Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. Don't tell me what is irrelevant to my own point, thanks. If you are going to respond like this, don't respond to discussions you were not part of. I have stopped responding to your posts, do me the same courtesy. Thanks. The discussion was about the differences between Luke and Rey with regards to their abilities to wield a lightsaber. One the one hand we have Luke who trained a few minutes/hours with Ben, then had quite a bit of time to practice alone, then was trained to become a Jedi by Yoda (and learning to become one with the Force helps in lightsaber use). On the other hand, we have Rey who's apparently good with a staff but holds a lightsaber for the first time time in her life and has no Force training (or at least hasn't held one/hasn't had any since she was a very small kid), and still kicks ass against a trained lightsaber & Force user, who should realistically be destroying her (injured and emotionally unstable as he is). Ok, that wasn’t clear enough, so I am going to be clear now. I don’t care about your opinion or what you have to say about the new movie. It does not matter to me. I disagree all of your views, but respect them so long as you don’t try to push them on me or respond to discussion between other posted I have decided to engage. So stop responding to me and I will do the same for you. Thanks.
If what I have to say does not matter to you, just skip over my posts and ignore them. You were participating in a discussion on a topic that interests me, about Rey's character and in particular how she managed to take on Kylo Ren. I joined the discussion by responding to your post, since I disagreed with a point you were making and that others have echoed. I did not write my post in order to be read only by you (otherwise I would have sent you a PM). Stop taking things personally and just ignore my posts if they're of no interest to you, and let others reply to me if they want to react to what I write.
On December 24 2015 03:21 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 02:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:38 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote:
Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. She trained melee combat as seen before. She even has a staff since whoever knows when. Kylo Ren probably isn't the best lightsaber fighter ever, he was wounded and mentally unstable after killing his father. Rey clearly knows how to fight with melee weapons, a lightsaber is just that. I don't understand the problem here. Her being so good with the force out of nowhere might be a problem i could understand, but fighting with a melee weapon? I guess people just overvalue the lightsaber greatly for some reason, to me it always was a cooler looking sword. This is what I don't think a lot of people who call those offering criticism "nitpickers" don't get: it's not one aspect of the film, taken in isolation, that is being criticised. It's how it contributes in the context to the overall feel of the film. (Well, no doubt there are people who are seriously pissed off that TIE Fighters are different now or something - but it's perfectly possible to criticise without being such a person.) So, if it were just Rey being a proficient lightsaber fighter - yeah, OK, maybe we'll roll with it. But then combine it with other things about her (pilot, force powers) and you start to lose that sense of belief in the film. This is why a multitude of supposedly minor things matter. It's fine to leave some stuff up to the audience, but when almost the entire scenario is unexplained and the viewer is unable to situate themselves at all, every instance of something that seems kind of odd turns from a "Well there's this explanation - could work - let's carry on" to people simply giving up on the film and losing their suspension of disbelief. Basically, it's fine having the audience do some work, but there comes a point where you're expecting them to come up with the entire story themselves, and when that happens every "minor" incident, which can indeed be explained away on its own, becomes part of a big problem. If the world made sense, if we actually knew what was going on: if these weren't left to the audience to figure out for themselves (presumably from reading the packing of toys, IDK?), and if there weren't so many of them, then the minor things wouldn't matter because we'd trust the film. But we don't have any reason to trust the film, and so doing the work for ourselves on minor things grates. These criticisms should not be seen as a list of complaints which can be dealt with individually - it's really not about whether there is some possible explanation - it's a bunch of things that explain why the overall feel of the film feels off. Of course, that's not a problem everyone is going to find with the film. People can like what they like. And I quite enjoyed quite a lot about TFA. But I see some pretty serious problems, and I think it's unfair to make fun of people for that, or act as though they're being crazily anal, when what they're saying is pretty reasonable.
This is spot-on. I'd like to add, with regards to my own posts, that my criticism does not mean in any way that I think others should not enjoy the film. If you are not bothered by the flaws I see in the movie, I'm happy for you. I'm a huge fan of the Star Wars franchise, and I'm delighted to see it succeed commercially and among viewers.
On December 24 2015 03:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 03:01 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:38 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote:
Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. She trained melee combat as seen before. She even has a staff since whoever knows when. Kylo Ren probably isn't the best lightsaber fighter ever, he was wounded and mentally unstable after killing his father. Rey clearly knows how to fight with melee weapons, a lightsaber is just that. I don't understand the problem here. Her being so good with the force out of nowhere might be a problem i could understand, but fighting with a melee weapon? I guess people just overvalue the lightsaber greatly for some reason, to me it always was a cooler looking sword. Again, there is a difference between fighting someone who's experienced with melee weapons, and fighting a Force user. The Force user has reflexes way beyond any human. I didn't see these reflexes in the old movies. This over the top bs fighting was prominent in the prequels and i am happy that JJ understands that it was just bad. Rey also is a force user. Again, there is no problem. Her being good at using the force out of nowhere is something which actually has some merit to discuss. Her beating Kylo in the lightsaber fight? Absolutely not.
We see Luke deflect laser shots in RotJ. This requires reflexes/a level of force awareness which matters in a lightsaber fight.
Rey has not been training for years in using the Force. Kylo Ren has.
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On December 24 2015 03:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 03:01 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:38 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote:
Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. She trained melee combat as seen before. She even has a staff since whoever knows when. Kylo Ren probably isn't the best lightsaber fighter ever, he was wounded and mentally unstable after killing his father. Rey clearly knows how to fight with melee weapons, a lightsaber is just that. I don't understand the problem here. Her being so good with the force out of nowhere might be a problem i could understand, but fighting with a melee weapon? I guess people just overvalue the lightsaber greatly for some reason, to me it always was a cooler looking sword. Again, there is a difference between fighting someone who's experienced with melee weapons, and fighting a Force user. The Force user has reflexes way beyond any human. I didn't see these reflexes in the old movies. This over the top bs fighting was prominent in the prequels and i am happy that JJ understands that it was just bad. Rey also is a force user. Again, there is no problem. Her being good at using the force out of nowhere is something which actually has some merit to discuss. Her beating Kylo in the lightsaber fight? Absolutely not.
At the beginning of Empire Luke was self taught. He learned to pull his saber to himself on his own. Pre-Jedi, most force users like just figured shit out on their own. She uses at max 3-4 force tricks during the entire film. I can totally see someone who wasn’t aware they were using the force suddenly going “oh shit, that is why I know where shit is before I am looking for it” and their abilities exploding out from there from there.
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On December 24 2015 03:34 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 03:21 FuzzyJAM wrote:On December 24 2015 02:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:38 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote:
Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. She trained melee combat as seen before. She even has a staff since whoever knows when. Kylo Ren probably isn't the best lightsaber fighter ever, he was wounded and mentally unstable after killing his father. Rey clearly knows how to fight with melee weapons, a lightsaber is just that. I don't understand the problem here. Her being so good with the force out of nowhere might be a problem i could understand, but fighting with a melee weapon? I guess people just overvalue the lightsaber greatly for some reason, to me it always was a cooler looking sword. This is what I don't think a lot of people who call those offering criticism "nitpickers" don't get: it's not one aspect of the film, taken in isolation, that is being criticised. It's how it contributes in the context to the overall feel of the film. (Well, no doubt there are people who are seriously pissed off that TIE Fighters are different now or something - but it's perfectly possible to criticise without being such a person.) So, if it were just Rey being a proficient lightsaber fighter - yeah, OK, maybe we'll roll with it. But then combine it with other things about her (pilot, force powers) and you start to lose that sense of belief in the film. This is why a multitude of supposedly minor things matter. It's fine to leave some stuff up to the audience, but when almost the entire scenario is unexplained and the viewer is unable to situate themselves at all, every instance of something that seems kind of odd turns from a "Well there's this explanation - could work - let's carry on" to people simply giving up on the film and losing their suspension of disbelief. Basically, it's fine having the audience do some work, but there comes a point where you're expecting them to come up with the entire story themselves, and when that happens every "minor" incident, which can indeed be explained away on its own, becomes part of a big problem. If the world made sense, if we actually knew what was going on: if these weren't left to the audience to figure out for themselves (presumably from reading the packing of toys, IDK?), and if there weren't so many of them, then the minor things wouldn't matter because we'd trust the film. But we don't have any reason to trust the film, and so doing the work for ourselves on minor things grates. These criticisms should not be seen as a list of complaints which can be dealt with individually - it's really not about whether there is some possible explanation - it's a bunch of things that explain why the overall feel of the film feels off. Of course, that's not a problem everyone is going to find with the film. People can like what they like. And I quite enjoyed quite a lot about TFA. But I see some pretty serious problems, and I think it's unfair to make fun of people for that, or act as though they're being crazily anal, when what they're saying is pretty reasonable. The criticism is fine, but the key is that people are sort of rehashing the same criticism which other folks have responded to. So it becomes this circular discussion that never moves forward or gets beyond these surface points. And after the 7-8th person has brought up the same points, people respond more dismissively because they are tired of talking about the same thing. If two people are discussing about liking the light saber duels and someone responds with “They didn’t make sense, Rey wasn’t trained,” after that has been discussed 5 times already, people get frustrated and use words like “nitpicking”. And the response that of “I don’t see those as flaws and they didn’t bother me,” is completely valid.
People are posting their thoughts on the film, which is the entire point of this thread. If someone were deliberately being antagonistic and quoting people in order to make totally unrelated points - yeah, that's a dick move, criticise them for it. But that's not what I was talking about at all.
If you're tired of responding to criticisms, don't respond to them. You're not obligated to be part of a discussion, so if you can only do so by being unkind and dismissive, don't discuss. I also don't think everyone is offering the exact same points - there is a huge amount of nuance in discussions of art and entertainment, and people are coming from all sorts of places to offer all sorts of different takes. That's the fun of it. Sure, there are obviously going to be a lot of overlap in views when the volume of response is so numerous, but that's the case for those praising the films as well, that's the nature of popular threads, so what's the problem?
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On December 24 2015 03:42 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 03:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 24 2015 03:01 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:38 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote:
Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. She trained melee combat as seen before. She even has a staff since whoever knows when. Kylo Ren probably isn't the best lightsaber fighter ever, he was wounded and mentally unstable after killing his father. Rey clearly knows how to fight with melee weapons, a lightsaber is just that. I don't understand the problem here. Her being so good with the force out of nowhere might be a problem i could understand, but fighting with a melee weapon? I guess people just overvalue the lightsaber greatly for some reason, to me it always was a cooler looking sword. Again, there is a difference between fighting someone who's experienced with melee weapons, and fighting a Force user. The Force user has reflexes way beyond any human. I didn't see these reflexes in the old movies. This over the top bs fighting was prominent in the prequels and i am happy that JJ understands that it was just bad. Rey also is a force user. Again, there is no problem. Her being good at using the force out of nowhere is something which actually has some merit to discuss. Her beating Kylo in the lightsaber fight? Absolutely not. We see Luke deflect laser shots in RotJ. This requires reflexes/a level of force awareness which matters in a lightsaber fight. Rey has not been training for years in using the Force. Kylo Ren has.
Kylo does the same in this movie. That still doesn't mean you are a godly lightsaber figher. Luke wasn't either in the OT. Far from it.
Kylo lost that fight because of multiple factors, i won't rename every single one of them, i already did that like 5 times.
If you cannot accept that these points are valid, then so be it i guess.
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On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 02:35 TerransHill wrote:On December 24 2015 02:17 Twoflowers wrote:
Luke trained in a skyhopper, which is basically a trainer for the T-65 X-wing. Rey is basically an ace pilot without any training. In a much more complicated ship that usually requires a trained co-pilot.
Agreed. But well, maybe we shouldn't be so critical. I mean at least it's better than say... an 8-year old spinning around in a spaceship and destroying a huge space station on his own. Imagine how ridiculous that would be. Episode I shouldn't be the metric to measure how good a new Star Wars is. In addition, as ridiculous as that sequence was, at least it was established previously in the movie that Anakin was an incredible pilot, more capable than any non-Jedi human.
Yes of course, I was just kidding a bit.
The thing is that I really wanted this movie to be good. I didn't want to be one of the guys who hate it while almost everybody celebrates it. 
Even after I left the cinema in disappointment i kept telling myself that it's still a decent movie. The more I think about it however, the worse it gets. Please let me at least tell to myself that it's still better than the prequels.^^
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On December 24 2015 03:52 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 03:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 24 2015 03:01 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:38 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote:
Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. She trained melee combat as seen before. She even has a staff since whoever knows when. Kylo Ren probably isn't the best lightsaber fighter ever, he was wounded and mentally unstable after killing his father. Rey clearly knows how to fight with melee weapons, a lightsaber is just that. I don't understand the problem here. Her being so good with the force out of nowhere might be a problem i could understand, but fighting with a melee weapon? I guess people just overvalue the lightsaber greatly for some reason, to me it always was a cooler looking sword. Again, there is a difference between fighting someone who's experienced with melee weapons, and fighting a Force user. The Force user has reflexes way beyond any human. I didn't see these reflexes in the old movies. This over the top bs fighting was prominent in the prequels and i am happy that JJ understands that it was just bad. Rey also is a force user. Again, there is no problem. Her being good at using the force out of nowhere is something which actually has some merit to discuss. Her beating Kylo in the lightsaber fight? Absolutely not. At the beginning of Empire Luke was self taught. He learned to pull his saber to himself on his own. Pre-Jedi, most force users like just figured shit out on their own. She uses at max 3-4 force tricks during the entire film. I can totally see someone who wasn’t aware they were using the force suddenly going “oh shit, that is why I know where shit is before I am looking for it” and their abilities exploding out from there from there.
Hm nah i actually can see it too. I think it comes a little bit out of nowhere in the movie because it moves so fast, you don't really have time to let it sink in. After thinking about it a bit i am fine with it too (i can see why people would dislike it after seeing the move though)
Then there obviously is still the possibility of her being Luke's daughter (quite likely) and her being trained by him (at least a little bit)
I would be ok with both scenarios i think (her discovering it on her own, her being trained by Luke in the past)
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On December 24 2015 03:58 TerransHill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:35 TerransHill wrote:On December 24 2015 02:17 Twoflowers wrote:
Luke trained in a skyhopper, which is basically a trainer for the T-65 X-wing. Rey is basically an ace pilot without any training. In a much more complicated ship that usually requires a trained co-pilot.
Agreed. But well, maybe we shouldn't be so critical. I mean at least it's better than say... an 8-year old spinning around in a spaceship and destroying a huge space station on his own. Imagine how ridiculous that would be. Episode I shouldn't be the metric to measure how good a new Star Wars is. In addition, as ridiculous as that sequence was, at least it was established previously in the movie that Anakin was an incredible pilot, more capable than any non-Jedi human. Yes of course, I was just kidding a bit. The thing is that I really wanted this movie to be good. I didn't want to be one of the guys who hate it while almost everybody celebrates it. Even after I left the cinema in disappointment i kept telling myself that it's still a decent movie. The more I think about it however, the worse it gets. Please let me at least tell to myself that it's still better than the prequels.^^
I think it's a very good movie. Not as good as the Empire Strikes Back, but not far behind A New Hope and Return of the Jedi.
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On December 24 2015 03:56 The_Red_Viper wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 03:42 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 03:41 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 24 2015 03:01 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:57 The_Red_Viper wrote:On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote:On December 24 2015 02:38 Plansix wrote:On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote:On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote:
Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. She trained melee combat as seen before. She even has a staff since whoever knows when. Kylo Ren probably isn't the best lightsaber fighter ever, he was wounded and mentally unstable after killing his father. Rey clearly knows how to fight with melee weapons, a lightsaber is just that. I don't understand the problem here. Her being so good with the force out of nowhere might be a problem i could understand, but fighting with a melee weapon? I guess people just overvalue the lightsaber greatly for some reason, to me it always was a cooler looking sword. Again, there is a difference between fighting someone who's experienced with melee weapons, and fighting a Force user. The Force user has reflexes way beyond any human. I didn't see these reflexes in the old movies. This over the top bs fighting was prominent in the prequels and i am happy that JJ understands that it was just bad. Rey also is a force user. Again, there is no problem. Her being good at using the force out of nowhere is something which actually has some merit to discuss. Her beating Kylo in the lightsaber fight? Absolutely not. We see Luke deflect laser shots in RotJ. This requires reflexes/a level of force awareness which matters in a lightsaber fight. Rey has not been training for years in using the Force. Kylo Ren has. Kylo does the same in this movie. That still doesn't mean you are a godly lightsaber figher. Luke wasn't either in the OT. Far from it. Kylo lost that fight because of multiple factors, i won't rename every single one of them, i already did that like 5 times. If you cannot accept that these points are valid, then so be it i guess.
I know that Kylo does the same in this movie, which is the entire point. He, too, has trained in the use of the Force. He, too, has deliberately honed those kind of reflexes over time. He, too, has been using a lightsaber for years, and is experienced in using it as a Force user. Rey defeating Ren after picking up on the Force five minutes earlier (and focusing intensely for five seconds during the fight after Ren conveniently reminded her of the Force's existence) is utterly ridiculous to me, regardless of his injury & instability. It shouldn't even be close enough for his injury to matter. If it isn't ridiculous to you, so be it I guess ,-)
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Because you guys bring up the sword fights, which, i personally didn't find bad. I just have one question regarding timeline and if there might be a plothole, just came to my mind:
+ Show Spoiler +They said That Ren used to be trained by Skywalker until he turned towards the Dark Side in his puberty. Now he is pretty young in the movie, let's say early 20's.. This basically means that Skywalker cannot be gone for so long because Solo and Leia send their kid to him for training. Isn't it specifically said that Skywalker is long gone basically long enough that no one remembers the Jedi? And isn't R2D2 in energy saving mode for a long time? How is training Ren and be gone forever brought together in the movie's timeline?
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On December 24 2015 04:24 AngryMag wrote:Because you guys bring up the sword fights, which, i personally didn't find bad. I just have one question regarding timeline and if there might be a plothole, just came to my mind: + Show Spoiler +They said That Ren used to be trained by Skywalker until he turned towards the Dark Side in his puberty. Now he is pretty young in the movie, let's say early 20's.. This basically means that Skywalker cannot be gone for so long because Solo and Leia send their kid to him for training. Isn't it specifically said that Skywalker is long gone basically long enough that no one remembers the Jedi? And isn't R2D2 in energy saving mode for a long time? How is training Ren and be gone forever brought together in the movie's timeline?
Depends on how old kylo is supposed to be. Adam Driver is over 30 years old and Han and Leia seem to be at least in their sixties in the movie.
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On December 24 2015 04:24 AngryMag wrote:Because you guys bring up the sword fights, which, i personally didn't find bad. I just have one question regarding timeline and if there might be a plothole, just came to my mind: + Show Spoiler +They said That Ren used to be trained by Skywalker until he turned towards the Dark Side in his puberty. Now he is pretty young in the movie, let's say early 20's.. This basically means that Skywalker cannot be gone for so long because Solo and Leia send their kid to him for training. Isn't it specifically said that Skywalker is long gone basically long enough that no one remembers the Jedi? And isn't R2D2 in energy saving mode for a long time? How is training Ren and be gone forever brought together in the movie's timeline?
The same way that from 3 to 4 people forgot the jedi have real powers despite seeing them walk around on battlefields 2 decades ago. The star wars universe has the attention span of a goldfish.
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I can't nail down the time line, but a lot people say that Ren was turns at like 13. Though it isn't clear if when he kills Luke's students. There is that shot of him with a bunch of other people, who we assume are the "Knights of Ren". So I assume that he got turned, trained, came back and killed the students while Luke was away. I doubt there are a direct confrontation. And then after that they put Rey in hiding, so she is like 4-5 year younger than Ren.
Or I am totally wrong.
On December 24 2015 04:28 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 04:24 AngryMag wrote:Because you guys bring up the sword fights, which, i personally didn't find bad. I just have one question regarding timeline and if there might be a plothole, just came to my mind: + Show Spoiler +They said That Ren used to be trained by Skywalker until he turned towards the Dark Side in his puberty. Now he is pretty young in the movie, let's say early 20's.. This basically means that Skywalker cannot be gone for so long because Solo and Leia send their kid to him for training. Isn't it specifically said that Skywalker is long gone basically long enough that no one remembers the Jedi? And isn't R2D2 in energy saving mode for a long time? How is training Ren and be gone forever brought together in the movie's timeline? The same way that from 3 to 4 people forgot the jedi have real powers despite seeing them walk around on battlefields 2 decades ago. The star wars universe has the attention span of a goldfish.
Also galaxies are huge and may people never see a Jedi. And even if you did, who would believe you. "No, there was totally this guy with a laser sword blocking shots and he was unstoppable," says one armed trooper in the medical bay.
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On December 24 2015 04:24 AngryMag wrote:Because you guys bring up the sword fights, which, i personally didn't find bad. I just have one question regarding timeline and if there might be a plothole, just came to my mind: + Show Spoiler +They said That Ren used to be trained by Skywalker until he turned towards the Dark Side in his puberty. Now he is pretty young in the movie, let's say early 20's.. This basically means that Skywalker cannot be gone for so long because Solo and Leia send their kid to him for training. Isn't it specifically said that Skywalker is long gone basically long enough that no one remembers the Jedi? And isn't R2D2 in energy saving mode for a long time? How is training Ren and be gone forever brought together in the movie's timeline?
5 years is still a long time. Let's go with the numbers you brought up - if Kylo is around 20 he might've thrown a tantrum around age of 15 (typical teenager bullshit), this would mean that Luke is gone for 5 years.
And people forgetting about the Jedi wasn't so hard. Even 30 years earlier (during the OT) they were the stuff of legends, just a fairy tale. So, most of the population is completely unaware of their existence.
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EPT
