EPTStar Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - Page 135
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We made a thread specifically for Episode 8 now, let us head over to that one  http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/entertainment/521373-star-wars-episode-viii-the-last-jedi | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On December 23 2015 22:19 ThomasjServo wrote: Playing Devil's Advocate here, but she is shown as being proficient with her staff. I wouldn't say that is 1:1 for training the saber skills, but it isn't General Jar Jar. I assumed so as well, she's shown to have melee skills. Too bad it would make little sense to have her gain a staff lightsaber. | ||
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shubcraft
Germany145 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Luke with long hair looked like hayden christensen before his final transition into vader, anyone saw that? And han solos death felt unecessary :-( | ||
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The_Masked_Shrimp
425 Posts
On December 24 2015 02:11 shubcraft wrote: Was it just me or did kylo behave sorta like a spoiled brat? isn't that teh definition of everyone on the dark side? :p | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 24 2015 02:14 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: isn't that teh definition of everyone on the dark side? :p You are not wrong. It is a defining trait that they “give in to their passions and anger” and that sometimes means throwing a fit. Vader just murdered anyone who failed him, which is less emotional, but just as petty. He was also an old robot man. | ||
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
On December 24 2015 02:11 shubcraft wrote: Was it just me or did kylo behave sorta like a spoiled brat? Did not like the actor as well, he is not really intimidating without the mask. + Show Spoiler + Luke with long hair looked like hayden christensen before his final transition into vader, anyone saw that? And han solos death felt unecessary :-( I think that is kind of the idea behind Kylo, an angry, undisciplined child playing Sith. I think they showed some of that even more when he was not alone taking orders from the leader of the first order, and with how General Hux interacts with him. His decisions are questioned, he throws tantrums, and is full of self doubt and his colleagues know it. It is pretty clear that he isn't mature/trusted enough to manage portions of the fleet without some form of supervision. It makes me think that part of his descent (and rising in the First Order) is more directly linked to his being part Skywalker rather than his utility as a force user in the plot leading up to the movie. | ||
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Twoflowers
Germany241 Posts
On December 23 2015 22:42 Rookie6 wrote: Oh this is a much better argument in my opinion. Luke is only shown training on the Falcon, and it is while they are flying to Alderaan, if I am not mistaken. Not a whole lot of time, but more than Rey (that is shown to us at least). I think my biggest reservation with the movie is knowing how much time has passed, so I kinda agree with this. My criticism are people acting like Luke had this huge training before. And another thing, Luke in ANH ends up piloting a X-Wing as competent as the best people of the rebellion. I mean, how much practice with a X-Wing he had on Tatooine? These points honestly don´t bother me in the slightest, but we have to be fair and don´t act like it´s something exclusive of TFA. The movies always had them and I argue it´s one of the things that make Star Wars... Star Wars. It´s not for us to overthink so much and it´s not the intention to be 100% realistic. Luke trained in a skyhopper, which is basically a trainer for the T-65 X-wing. Rey is basically an ace pilot without any training. In a much more complicated ship that usually requires a trained co-pilot. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On December 24 2015 02:14 The_Masked_Shrimp wrote: isn't that teh definition of everyone on the dark side? :p No it's not. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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TerransHill
Germany572 Posts
On December 24 2015 02:17 Twoflowers wrote: Luke trained in a skyhopper, which is basically a trainer for the T-65 X-wing. Rey is basically an ace pilot without any training. In a much more complicated ship that usually requires a trained co-pilot. Agreed. But well, maybe we shouldn't be so critical. I mean at least it's better than say... an 8-year old spinning around in a spaceship and destroying a huge space station on his own. Imagine how ridiculous that would be. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On December 23 2015 22:37 Plansix wrote: Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? On December 24 2015 02:35 TerransHill wrote: Agreed. But well, maybe we shouldn't be so critical. I mean at least it's better than say... an 8-year old spinning around in a spaceship and destroying a huge space station on his own. Imagine how ridiculous that would be. Episode I shouldn't be the metric to measure how good a new Star Wars is. In addition, as ridiculous as that sequence was, at least it was established previously in the movie that Anakin was an incredible pilot, more capable than any non-Jedi human. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 24 2015 02:35 kwizach wrote: Episode V doesn't take place the day after Episode IV. Some time has passed, and we are not told exactly what the characters have been doing. Why would anyone assume that Luke has not done any training with the lightsaber since "the stuff on the Falcon"? You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On December 24 2015 02:38 Plansix wrote: You quoted me out of context and that was in reference to having a teacher to assist. Luke learned to use the saber mostly on his own or maybe just trained with someone with a standard sword. Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote: Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. Don't tell me what is irrelevant to my own point, thanks. If you are going to respond like this, don't respond to discussions you were not part of. I have stopped responding to your posts, do me the same courtesy. Thanks. | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
On December 24 2015 02:43 kwizach wrote: Having a teacher or not is irrelevant. The point is that one trained to use a lightsaber, the other didn't. She trained melee combat as seen before. She even has a staff since whoever knows when. Kylo Ren probably isn't the best lightsaber fighter ever, he was wounded and mentally unstable after killing his father. Rey clearly knows how to fight with melee weapons, a lightsaber is just that. I don't understand the problem here. Her being so good with the force out of nowhere might be a problem i could understand, but fighting with a melee weapon? I guess people just overvalue the lightsaber greatly for some reason, to me it always was a cooler looking sword. | ||
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kwizach
3658 Posts
On December 24 2015 02:47 Plansix wrote: Don't tell me what is irrelevant to my own point, thanks. If you are going to respond like this, don't respond to discussions you were not part of. I have stopped responding to your posts, do me the same courtesy. Thanks. The discussion was about the differences between Luke and Rey with regards to their abilities to wield a lightsaber. One the one hand we have Luke who trained a few minutes/hours with Ben, then had quite a bit of time to practice alone, then was trained to become a Jedi by Yoda (and learning to become one with the Force helps in lightsaber use). On the other hand, we have Rey who's apparently good with a staff but holds a lightsaber for the first time time in her life and has no Force training (or at least hasn't held one/hasn't had any since she was a very small kid), and still kicks ass against a trained lightsaber & Force user, who should realistically be destroying her (injured and emotionally unstable as he is). On December 24 2015 02:57 The_Red_Viper wrote: She trained melee combat as seen before. She even has a staff since whoever knows when. Kylo Ren probably isn't the best lightsaber fighter ever, he was wounded and mentally unstable after killing his father. Rey clearly knows how to fight with melee weapons, a lightsaber is just that. I don't understand the problem here. Her being so good with the force out of nowhere might be a problem i could understand, but fighting with a melee weapon? I guess people just overvalue the lightsaber greatly for some reason, to me it always was a cooler looking sword. Again, there is a difference between fighting someone who's experienced with melee weapons, and fighting a Force user. The Force user has reflexes way beyond any human. | ||
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Twoflowers
Germany241 Posts
On December 24 2015 02:35 TerransHill wrote: Agreed. But well, maybe we shouldn't be so critical. I mean at least it's better than say... an 8-year old spinning around in a spaceship and destroying a huge space station on his own. Imagine how ridiculous that would be. I actually really liked Rey in the beginning. The scene where she wore that old alliance helmet was great. I was just a bit annoyed that she basically surpassed all her rolemodels at the end of the movie. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 24 2015 03:01 kwizach wrote: The discussion was about the differences between Luke and Rey with regards to their abilities to wield a lightsaber. One the one hand we have Luke who trained a few minutes/hours with Ben, then had quite a bit of time to practice alone, then was trained to become a Jedi by Yoda (and learning to become one with the Force helps in lightsaber use). On the other hand, we have Rey who's apparently good with a staff but holds a lightsaber for the first time time in her life and has no Force training (or at least hasn't held one/hasn't had any since she was a very small kid), and still kicks ass against a trained lightsaber & Force user, who should realistically be destroying her (injured and emotionally unstable as he is). Ok, that wasn’t clear enough, so I am going to be clear now. I don’t care about your opinion or what you have to say about the new movie. It does not matter to me. I disagree all of your views, but respect them so long as you don’t try to push them on me or respond to discussion between other posted I have decided to engage. So stop responding to me and I will do the same for you. Thanks. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5776 Posts
On December 24 2015 03:04 Plansix wrote: Ok, that wasn’t clear enough, so I am going to be clear now. I don’t care about your opinion or what you have to say about the new movie. It does not matter to me. I disagree all of your views, but respect them so long as you don’t try to push them on me or respond to discussion between other posted I have decided to engage. So stop responding to me and I will do the same for you. Thanks. Wow, someone's up past their bedtime | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On December 24 2015 02:57 The_Red_Viper wrote: She trained melee combat as seen before. She even has a staff since whoever knows when. Kylo Ren probably isn't the best lightsaber fighter ever, he was wounded and mentally unstable after killing his father. Rey clearly knows how to fight with melee weapons, a lightsaber is just that. I don't understand the problem here. Her being so good with the force out of nowhere might be a problem i could understand, but fighting with a melee weapon? I guess people just overvalue the lightsaber greatly for some reason, to me it always was a cooler looking sword. This is what I don't think a lot of people who call those offering criticism "nitpickers" don't get: it's not one aspect of the film, taken in isolation, that is being criticised. It's how it contributes in the context to the overall feel of the film. (Well, no doubt there are people who are seriously pissed off that TIE Fighters are different now or something - but it's perfectly possible to criticise without being such a person.) So, if it were just Rey being a proficient lightsaber fighter - yeah, OK, maybe we'll roll with it. But then combine it with other things about her (pilot, force powers) and you start to lose that sense of belief in the film. This is why a multitude of supposedly minor things matter. It's fine to leave some stuff up to the audience, but when almost the entire scenario is unexplained and the viewer is unable to situate themselves at all, every instance of something that seems kind of odd turns from a "Well there's this explanation - could work - let's carry on" to people simply giving up on the film and losing their suspension of disbelief. Basically, it's fine having the audience do some work, but there comes a point where you're expecting them to come up with the entire story themselves, and when that happens every "minor" incident, which can indeed be explained away on its own, becomes part of a big problem. If the world made sense, if we actually knew what was going on: if these weren't left to the audience to figure out for themselves (presumably from reading the packing of toys, IDK?), and if there weren't so many of them, then the minor things wouldn't matter because we'd trust the film. But we don't have any reason to trust the film, and so doing the work for ourselves on minor things grates. These criticisms should not be seen as a list of complaints which can be dealt with individually - it's really not about whether there is some possible explanation - it's a bunch of things that explain why the overall feel of the film feels off. Of course, that's not a problem everyone is going to find with the film. People can like what they like. And I quite enjoyed quite a lot about TFA. But I see some pretty serious problems, and I think it's unfair to make fun of people for that, or act as though they're being crazily anal, when what they're saying is pretty reasonable. | ||
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