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On December 23 2015 21:50 Rookie6 wrote:
About Rey having lightsaber skills without training them, it is never shown Luke practicing with the lightsaber against another lightsaber user. His whole training with Yoda is about mastering the Force, more of a mental training, and he goes toe to toe against Vader! (ep VI). He had some experience against "normal" foes though... But for me, this can mean that duel skill is also related to how much control and understanding of the force you have, not only just practicing fencing.
To be honest, I didnt watch the OT in a while. But since you can see him practicing a little bit with Obi Wan it can be implied that he got trained a little more, even if we don't actually see it in the movie.
The thing with Episode 7 is that it all feels so rushed that you get the feeling the whole story just happened on the same day. Rey is even still wearing her desert cloths in the snow (when even chewy is freezing lol). So during one day she learns how to use the force, fligh a spaceship and fight with a lightsabre, which is a little bit over the top.
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On December 23 2015 22:26 ZenithM wrote:
I thought it was fairly obvious that Kylo is the one who taught what Rey knows of the Force, especially the mind trick. When Rey resisted the "mind rape" from sheer strength of will (probably a natural emanation of her Force talent), she also peered back into what Kylo was doing.
I had talked with the Fiancee about it as well in that Kylo Ren despite being formally trained lacked the discipline of will (and knowledge that she could do that initially) to stop her from returning the Occlumency back on him.
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On December 23 2015 20:08 Orcasgt24 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 19:51 TerransHill wrote:
Anyone else think that the whole scene where they force Phasma to deactivate the shields is kinda funny? The terminal is in a small room where noone is working and they manage to bring her there without anyone noticing.
Wouldn't such a terminal be in some kind of tower where alot of people work ( like in an airport )? It actually should be in the big control room where general ginger spends most of his time. Or are there just tons of terminals all around the station from where you can deactivate the shields?? This is such lazy writing, it hurts. They could as well just not mention the shields at all. I agree. Also she's the leader of the Stormtroopers and willingly deactivates the shield? No fight? No subtle trap? Just "Ok here ya go. They are off, Have a good day" Lame
Forcing the shield thing into the plot was meh, but how can you blame Phasma? Maybe the reason she is the leader of the stormtroopers is because she realizes when she's cornered, and won't play the heroine in a 1v3 situation, when they are pointing a blaster to your head.
The only thing they should've done with her was adding some mystery to the character. I'm sure she'll be important in the next episodes, but they could at least hint at her character. Something like "You know she's not messing around....", which at least makes you wonder a little bit.
On December 23 2015 22:02 Gorsameth wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 21:50 Rookie6 wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that most of these nitpicks don´t make much sense when people ignore the OT?
I mean, I understand people don´t liking some things, but it doesn´t make sense when you are treating it as something exclusive of TFA.
Talking about "mind rape", I saw someone saying Kylo is the first one to do it and it looked OP. Vader against Luke in ep VI discovers about Leia being his sister in the middle of the fight. He isn´t even seeing Luke, Luke is already a trained Jedi and isn´t tied up in a chair. I would say that is way more impressive.
About Rey having lightsaber skills without training them, it is never shown Luke practicing with the lightsaber against another lightsaber user. His whole training with Yoda is about mastering the Force, more of a mental training, and he goes toe to toe against Vader! (ep VI). He had some experience against "normal" foes though... But for me, this can mean that duel skill is also related to how much control and understanding of the force you have, not only just practicing fencing.
I think the one thing that I would change in the last fight is making Kylo´s wound more evident, but I only saw the movie once so far, so I have to see it again to have a more precise opinion. People here are also ignoring that the guy just killed his father a few minutes ago and they spent the whole movie saying how emotionally unstable he was.
I also read a theory that when Rey is concentrating she is actually getting in Kylo´s mind again (which is the one trick she learned during the movie) and absorbs some of his fighting know how. For Luke we are atleast shown him practicing with his saber on board the Falcon with Ben. Rey is proficient from the moment she first touches a saber. Those small scenes show character development that lets us fill in the blanks ourselves.
This is why I don't envy the likes of J.J. So, he sacrifices some history lessons for more action, which can (and should) be argued, yet we are still having arguments about how can a talented, strong, agile, determined girl, who has been shown to us that she's more than capable of handling herself and melee weapons (not blasters though!), could fight with a weapon which is almost an exact copy of a standard sword, you just have to be more careful with it? What else do some people need?
I can imagine Abrams going over his notes, and wondering whether he should include a cheesy scene with Rey, where her dueling prowess is being praised in long-long, well articulated sentences, so that people will definitely understand it. Sheesh, this is the very definition of nitpicking. They even made sure that her technique remains crude, just like if she was using a real sword.... which was just another hint for people to realize "aaah, guys, I think I figured it out!! She fights this way because she's skilled in melee combat, but lacks the finesse and experience which is required for high-level lightsaber combat!!".
I was getting a bit confused when they kept showing us how strong Chewie's blaster was, as it was more than obvious they were trying to convey a message across to us. But even those - in hindsight - painfully obvious scenes went over many people's head, who now complain about Ren taking a whole minute pwning Finn, then eventually losing to Rey.
It is nitpicking when J.J. himself could walk into the cinema, pause the movie, explain these connections to everyone, and some people would still just go "nah bro, that's a lightsaber, that's like... totally nothing like an ordinary saber. I'm a lvl 157, gilded Star Wars expert and the moderator of trueswfans12.com, in case you'd ask for credentials."
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On December 23 2015 22:19 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 22:02 Gorsameth wrote:On December 23 2015 21:50 Rookie6 wrote:
Am I the only one who thinks that most of these nitpicks don´t make much sense when people ignore the OT?
I mean, I understand people don´t liking some things, but it doesn´t make sense when you are treating it as something exclusive of TFA.
Talking about "mind rape", I saw someone saying Kylo is the first one to do it and it looked OP. Vader against Luke in ep VI discovers about Leia being his sister in the middle of the fight. He isn´t even seeing Luke, Luke is already a trained Jedi and isn´t tied up in a chair. I would say that is way more impressive.
About Rey having lightsaber skills without training them, it is never shown Luke practicing with the lightsaber against another lightsaber user. His whole training with Yoda is about mastering the Force, more of a mental training, and he goes toe to toe against Vader! (ep VI). He had some experience against "normal" foes though... But for me, this can mean that duel skill is also related to how much control and understanding of the force you have, not only just practicing fencing.
I think the one thing that I would change in the last fight is making Kylo´s wound more evident, but I only saw the movie once so far, so I have to see it again to have a more precise opinion. People here are also ignoring that the guy just killed his father a few minutes ago and they spent the whole movie saying how emotionally unstable he was.
I also read a theory that when Rey is concentrating she is actually getting in Kylo´s mind again (which is the one trick she learned during the movie) and absorbs some of his fighting know how. For Luke we are atleast shown him practicing with his saber on board the Falcon with Ben. Rey is proficient from the moment she first touches a saber. Those small scenes show character development that lets us fill in the blanks ourselves. Playing Devil's Advocate here, but she is shown as being proficient with her staff. I wouldn't say that is 1:1 for training the saber skills, but it isn't General Jar Jar.
Its made clear she knows how to fight with a melee weapon and swords are not complex devices. And she almost loses. Luke became good enough with a light saber completely independent of any training beyond the stuff on the Falcon. Yoda wasn't teaching him how to fight with the saber. And we can make the same leap with Luke becoming an ace fighter pilot on an X-wing just because he flew some crop duster back home. My father is a pilot, but he can't just jump into any plane and fly it. It think its safe to say in Star Wars that everyone can fly a space ship if pushed to do it. Some people are better than others, but everyone can drive.
At its core Star Wars is pulp action and part of the conceit of that "heroes know how to fight the villain when the show down comes." At the end of the day, Rey and Ren were likely close in skill when it comes to melee combat, but Ren had an edge because of the force. Him being wounded and having already fought Finn made up for her being unfamiliar with the saber.
On December 23 2015 22:35 Volband wrote:
It is nitpicking when J.J. himself could walk into the cinema, pause the movie, explain these connections to everyone, and some people would still just go "nah bro, that's a lightsaber, that's like... totally nothing like an ordinary saber. I'm a lvl 157, gilded Star Wars expert and the moderator of trueswfans12.com, in case you'd ask for credentials."
This is top tier. Top tier.
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I for one don't think they retconned anything about Jedi power and especially saber dueling. It really all makes sense.
In the prequel, the Jedi Order is an established thing, with its code, its schools of thought and fighting, its standardized training. This made sense that the best lightsaber wielders were seen during that time: people like Windu, Dooku or Prime Obi Wan and Prime Yoda.
Then, the field got reduced to basically Obi Wan and Yoda (2 very good duelists) on one side, Sidious (good too) and Vader (greatly diminished by the loss of a lot of his body) after Episode 3. Of these 4, only Vader was actually very young at this time, and he was the less proficient at dueling out of them.
So when you fast-forward to Episode 4, all lightsaber wielders are basically either very old, or in a big heavy metal armor. It just makes sense that the duels are much slower. Fast-forward to the end of Episode 6, the last good lightsaber fighters are all dead, leaving Luke to learn by himself how to fight.
In Episode 7, it's natural that the youngters look like children playing with glowsticks, given their lack of training. For all we know, all knowledge on lightsaber fighting has actually vanished. It remains to see how Luke actually fights. And if there are remaining hidden competent Force users (a Sith?) out there.
The only thing that can bother you if you think about it is how diminished Yoda seems in Empire compared to how he fights in Ep 2 and 3. He's like a thousand years old, yet those 20 something years reduced him to an impotent geezer? BUT, Yoda is one of the most sensitive Force users, and was majorly shaken up by the end of Episode 3, with the death of most of his Force-talented friends and the rise of the Dark Side. It could explain his fast decline.
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On December 23 2015 22:30 TerransHill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 21:50 Rookie6 wrote:
About Rey having lightsaber skills without training them, it is never shown Luke practicing with the lightsaber against another lightsaber user. His whole training with Yoda is about mastering the Force, more of a mental training, and he goes toe to toe against Vader! (ep VI). He had some experience against "normal" foes though... But for me, this can mean that duel skill is also related to how much control and understanding of the force you have, not only just practicing fencing.
To be honest, I didnt watch the OT in a while. But since you can see him practicing a little bit with Obi Wan it can be implied that he got trained a little more, even if we don't actually see it in the movie. The thing with Episode 7 is that it all feels so rushed that you get the feeling the whole story just happened on the same day. Rey is even still wearing her desert cloths in the snow (when even chewy is freezing lol). So during one day she learns how to use the force, fligh a spaceship and fight with a lightsabre, which is a little bit over the top.
Oh this is a much better argument in my opinion.
Luke is only shown training on the Falcon, and it is while they are flying to Alderaan, if I am not mistaken. Not a whole lot of time, but more than Rey (that is shown to us at least).
I think my biggest reservation with the movie is knowing how much time has passed, so I kinda agree with this.
My criticism are people acting like Luke had this huge training before. And another thing, Luke in ANH ends up piloting a X-Wing as competent as the best people of the rebellion. I mean, how much practice with a X-Wing he had on Tatooine?
These points honestly don´t bother me in the slightest, but we have to be fair and don´t act like it´s something exclusive of TFA. The movies always had them and I argue it´s one of the things that make Star Wars... Star Wars. It´s not for us to overthink so much and it´s not the intention to be 100% realistic.
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On December 23 2015 22:30 TerransHill wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 21:50 Rookie6 wrote:
About Rey having lightsaber skills without training them, it is never shown Luke practicing with the lightsaber against another lightsaber user. His whole training with Yoda is about mastering the Force, more of a mental training, and he goes toe to toe against Vader! (ep VI). He had some experience against "normal" foes though... But for me, this can mean that duel skill is also related to how much control and understanding of the force you have, not only just practicing fencing.
To be honest, I didnt watch the OT in a while. But since you can see him practicing a little bit with Obi Wan it can be implied that he got trained a little more, even if we don't actually see it in the movie. The thing with Episode 7 is that it all feels so rushed that you get the feeling the whole story just happened on the same day. Rey is even still wearing her desert cloths in the snow (when even chewy is freezing lol). So during one day she learns how to use the force, fligh a spaceship and fight with a lightsabre, which is a little bit over the top.
The fast pace was definitely the main "problem" for me, if anything. It was enjoyable but over the top, as you said. I didn't mind as much the similarities between Episode 1 and 7.
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Just changing the subject. Am I the only one who wants the next movie to start with Han´s funeral? I think we didn´t had so much time to say goodbye to the character.
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On December 23 2015 23:05 Rookie6 wrote:
Just changing the subject. Am I the only one who wants the next movie to start with Han´s funeral? I think we didn´t had so much time to say goodbye to the character.
I would prefer they didn't personally. I think it would slow the audience's moving away from the OT. Imo the whole point of killing him, and all the callbacks and similarities to E4 was just saying, here is a Star Wars movie you know and love, and with his death we are creating a break between OT and this.
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If they follow the previous films, it will take place an "undisclosed time" after the end of the last film and we will be thrown into the middle of some conflict. Characters will have changed, trained up, learned new stuff and be in the middle of adventures that are loosely related to the last film.
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Yea, it makes sense, and I will probably agree that it´s the best with time. It´s just that it hurts to lose such an important character for me and I wouldn´t mind some more grief. But thinking about it, it´s probably for the best.
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They could easily have Luke and Leia visit his grave after having not seen each other for years. I think that would be a better scene because they could talk about the funeral and let the actors carry it, rather than set dressing and sad music.
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On December 23 2015 23:22 Plansix wrote:
They could easily have Luke and Leia visit his grave after having not seen each other for years. I think that would be a better scene because they could talk about the funeral and let the actors carry it, rather than set dressing and sad music.
Or he'll appear as a ghost with Anakin, Yoda, and Obiwan at the end of Episode 9. :p
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On December 23 2015 23:24 ThomasjServo wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 23:22 Plansix wrote:
They could easily have Luke and Leia visit his grave after having not seen each other for years. I think that would be a better scene because they could talk about the funeral and let the actors carry it, rather than set dressing and sad music. Or he'll appear as a ghost with Anakin, Yoda, and Obiwan at the end of Episode 9. :p
And after they release the "Han Solo - Anthology film" they can substitute Harrison Ford´s ghost for the new actor!
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On December 23 2015 23:27 Rookie6 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 23:24 ThomasjServo wrote:On December 23 2015 23:22 Plansix wrote:
They could easily have Luke and Leia visit his grave after having not seen each other for years. I think that would be a better scene because they could talk about the funeral and let the actors carry it, rather than set dressing and sad music. Or he'll appear as a ghost with Anakin, Yoda, and Obiwan at the end of Episode 9. :p And after they release the "Han Solo - Anthology film" they can substitute Harrison Ford´s ghost for the new actor!
Yeah, gotta hold onto that one for the remastered box set.
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Just watched the movie. I'm very late to the discussion, so I'll just put my review in spoilers so you don't have to see a wall of text outlining things that people have probably already posted numerous times. I'm just using this as an opportunity to start working on my writing and grammar again, so please pm me if you see some egregious shit that you think I can improve on. I did write this right after viewing, so there's a ton of rambling.
+ Show Spoiler +Overall: 9.0/10
Pros:
Let's just say for me, the immediate thing that stood out was that a Star Wars movie felt alive for the first time in a while. It had believable characters who displayed real emotions. There were more practical effects than CGI. Old school Star Wars things such as tie fighters, x-wings, M-falcon, saber battles that aren't 100% impractical, etc. make a glorious return. The magical feel of the universe and the force are restored to their glory.
Now I'm going to focus on individual aspects that I really enjoyed.
First of all, let's just get the technical stuff out of the way. I have always loved Star Wars for it's amazing spaceship designs, and I'm so happy to see all the things we knew from the OT get a nice make over fit for a new generation. I loved getting to see TIE-Fighters and X-wings in so much more detail. The first part of the movie where POE and Finn pilot that TIE was just a nerd's wet dream. Seeing the M-falcon under new "gravity effects" was also great. You can almost feel how incredibly hard it is to pilot that hulking piece of junk. Same goes for the blaster effects, and the light sabers. Seeing blasters leave searing holes in their victims makes them so much more threatening. And the lightsabers, oh boy. They really upped the sound effects on those things, making them feel even more like pure raw energy, barely contained. The effects departments attention to detail needs to be applauded. Seeing the effects a lightsaber has on the environment is amazing. The glow of chopped trees, snow fizzling on them, and how metal just completely melts. I know these effects existed in the past, but they look much better now. Half the time during saber scenes, I was actually just focusing on the sabers hitting objects to see the effects. There's Star Killer Base. It's there because it's important to the story (or ILM just wanted to show off what they can do now). Force abilities are used a lot more, and they feel more powerful. A lot of this has to be credited to the sound effects, making these abilities sound as if they carry great weight. Lastly, the practical effects were great. The different species look real and less puppet-ish. Same can be said about the star fighters. Nothing surprising here, they had 30+ years to improve on these kinds of things.
This leads us to the characters. I'll keep it short here, they are great additions to Star Wars lore. The big 3 did a great job acting, and the problem some people had with the character's ethnicity and sex never gets in the way. You immediately ignore the fact that Rey is a girl and Finn is black because of how much they draw you in and get you invested in their story. Kylo Ren was also done very well. He felt very menacing throughout the film, but in a manner that's somewhat different from Vader's. He's more of this unstable abuser of his abilities who doesn't really put too much thought into killing. Another character I liked were Storm troopers. They actually feel competent and menacing now. This is the first time you actually feel like they are the bad guys to be feared since ANH. They are giving much more personality. Overall, these new actors and their amazing chemistry on screen are probably the biggest reason why the new film shined, and the hardest thing to get right. So I applaud whoever chose these people to be in the movie. Oh yeah, and there's BB-8! A great successor to R2D2, and yet another great achievement in the practical effects department!
Cons:
As much as I fanboy over the movie, it definitely has plenty of issues. First, the pacing is too fast. It really does feel like the movie just rolls from one set to another. Luckily, each set piece is fucking amazing. This does make the movie feel shorter than it is. A lot of things are also left completely unanswered by the end, though we can probably predict the outcome of most of these things. I don't know if they deliberately did this to leave us wanting more, or if they just didn't have the time to add the extra details, and felt it would disrupt the overall flow. Either way, we come in with lots of questions, and we leave with the same amount, if not more. The next complaint is the one everyone has heard by now: it borrows too many elements from the OT. I agree with this. I feel Star Killer base was literally DS3, from the trench, to how one X-wing blows the whole shit up. There are also numerous nods to memorable moments from past movies. If these scenes weren't done so well, it would've really been an issue. And there's also Captain Phasma. Who was basically a joke character. I can't believe she is even on the poster, this character literally does nothing except reprimand Finn and then serving as a gag for Finn and Han. Her screen time is so low that one wonders why she even exists. I hope they use this character more in the next movie, cuz she is basically useless to the plot in this one.
TLDR:
Film is a must watch for Star Wars fans. It's the old school Star Wars we know and love with upgraded graphics, new story, and a new cast that brings more magic to the movie than the prequels ever could. Also features tons of well done nostalgia pandering.
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On December 23 2015 23:05 Rookie6 wrote:
Just changing the subject. Am I the only one who wants the next movie to start with Han´s funeral? I think we didn´t had so much time to say goodbye to the character.
To have a funeral, you must have a body (and that was lost with the Starkiller Base).
On another note, since people are constantly complaining about Rey beating Kylo...
Haven't the idea of Rey taking saber-combat knowledge from Kylo occured to you? I've said it in the spoilers previously but we're done with that now so here it goes again:
Kylo is definitely winning the duel, right up until the point where he tells Rey that he can teach her. That's when this seemingly awkward scene happens, where Rey is concentrating while Kylo is visibly shaken. My thought on the matter is that Rey used the first jedi trick she learned from Kylo and simply invaded his mind to gain the knowledge she needed. Notice that after doing that she completely changes her fighting style, to one much resembling that of Kylo himself. It isn't graceful, it's rather straightforward and at the same time dirty (trying to overpower your opponent and inflicting painful wounds on him).
Definitely among the top 3 lightsaber fights across all movies so far. There's so much going on that it's ridiculous, you could spend days analyzing just this scene alone.
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On December 24 2015 01:45 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 23:05 Rookie6 wrote:
Just changing the subject. Am I the only one who wants the next movie to start with Han´s funeral? I think we didn´t had so much time to say goodbye to the character. To have a funeral, you must have a body (and that was lost with the Starkiller Base). On another note, since people are constantly complaining about Rey beating Kylo... Haven't the idea of Rey taking saber-combat knowledge from Kylo occured to you? I've said it in the spoilers previously but we're done with that now so here it goes again: Kylo is definitely winning the duel, right up until the point where he tells Rey that he can teach her. That's when this seemingly awkward scene happens, where Rey is concentrating while Kylo is visibly shaken. My thought on the matter is that Rey used the first jedi trick she learned from Kylo and simply invaded his mind to gain the knowledge she needed. Notice that after doing that she completely changes her fighting style, to one much resembling that of Kylo himself. It isn't graceful, it's rather straightforward and at the same time dirty (trying to overpower your opponent and inflicting painful wounds on him). Definitely among the top 3 lightsaber fights across all movies so far. There's so much going on that it's ridiculous, you could spend days analyzing just this scene alone.
I liked how their fights are so barbaric. Kylo basically abuses the shit out of his saber and tries to win the fight whenever he gets the chance. These fights aren't elegant, but they're much more practical and carry more weight.
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Off topic: I am pretty sure people have funerals without bodies.
On topic: Or she used the force to centered herself, gain focus/calm and beat him. That is what I took from the scene. The force is a spiritual energy like chi in eastern myths. In those stories, the fighter that becomes one with their “chi” can win against impossible odds. But its not something you do at will or will work every time.
On December 24 2015 01:51 Dreamer.T wrote:Show nested quote +On December 24 2015 01:45 Manit0u wrote:On December 23 2015 23:05 Rookie6 wrote:
Just changing the subject. Am I the only one who wants the next movie to start with Han´s funeral? I think we didn´t had so much time to say goodbye to the character. To have a funeral, you must have a body (and that was lost with the Starkiller Base). On another note, since people are constantly complaining about Rey beating Kylo... Haven't the idea of Rey taking saber-combat knowledge from Kylo occured to you? I've said it in the spoilers previously but we're done with that now so here it goes again: Kylo is definitely winning the duel, right up until the point where he tells Rey that he can teach her. That's when this seemingly awkward scene happens, where Rey is concentrating while Kylo is visibly shaken. My thought on the matter is that Rey used the first jedi trick she learned from Kylo and simply invaded his mind to gain the knowledge she needed. Notice that after doing that she completely changes her fighting style, to one much resembling that of Kylo himself. It isn't graceful, it's rather straightforward and at the same time dirty (trying to overpower your opponent and inflicting painful wounds on him). Definitely among the top 3 lightsaber fights across all movies so far. There's so much going on that it's ridiculous, you could spend days analyzing just this scene alone. I liked how their fights are so barbaric. Kylo basically abuses the shit out of his saber and tries to win the fight whenever he gets the chance. These fights aren't elegant, but they're much more practical and carry more weight.
They looked more like the fights from Empire and RotJ, which I liked. Empire has one of the best fights in all of the series, with the most interesting dynamic and also a real belief that Luke could win if he got luck(until the end).
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On December 24 2015 01:51 Plansix wrote:
Off topic: I am pretty sure people have funerals without bodies.
On topic: Or she used the force to centered herself, gain focus/calm and beat him. That is what I took from the scene. The force is a spiritual energy like chi in eastern myths. In those stories, the fighter that becomes one with their “chi” can win against impossible odds. But its not something you do at will or will work every time.
That was my impression aswell, that moment of clarity giving her the power to beat him.
The fight did its job wel, it was not elegant but neither side was properly trained so the brutality matches it well.
Most of films issues are imo with the story and not with the action. A well executed and filmed movie from a bad script.
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EPT
