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I personally find the flawed Kylo Ren a lot more interesting than the deadly but dull Darth Maul or Count Dooku. I don't accept the condition that Ren needs to be a polished expert in order to be an interesting villain. At the end of the film Snoke literally says he needs to recall him in order to finish his training. This is the first movie of a trilogy and there is a lot of room for his character to change and grow over the trilogy.
I think it is interesting that the reactions of some fans to Kylo mirrors the character's own feelings of inadequacy.
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I have noticed the same thing. And that many of them seems to be very weirded out that the villain could be beaten by the heroes. I especially like that people are learning the meaning of the term Mary Sue and using it like they have been doing it their whole lives.
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On December 23 2015 12:09 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 12:00 shin_toss wrote:On December 23 2015 07:57 palexhur wrote:On December 23 2015 07:53 shin_toss wrote:On December 23 2015 07:45 palexhur wrote:On December 23 2015 03:28 TerransHill wrote:On December 23 2015 02:33 Volband wrote:
So a villain who is unstable = bad villain? What's a good villain then? xXxDestroyer_Of_LifexXx "I am literally Hitler"?
Imo with Kylo you can see someone becoming the big bad guy, and it's great. We already had Vader once shoved into our faces as "he's very strong and evil, hurr-durr", and Darth Maul being just your regular crazy, silent, ugly dude. No problem in being unstable. But... + Show Spoiler +
...he shouldn't be such a whiner all the time. He is on the dark side already, so he can't really be a nice person. It would've been ok if at some point he questions some things he did but actually his dominant attribute in the movie is whiny, he even looks wimpy. That just doesn't work out.
Also he is so fucking incompetent. He loses Poe, then he loses Rey and after that he loses the whole fucking base. And every time he rages like a whiny little kid.
If I was that Snoke guy I wouldn't pick him up from that base. In fact I would kill him and the redhead guy for such failure, trashing such a big investment.
I don't even know how you can rate a movie without any tension that high. The bad guys are just an absolute joke and a complete walkover. Is that really what you want in a movie? Feels like this is Disney Highschool Musical with the "evil" guys just being kinda mean and getting fooled all the time.
Agree with you, besides the incoherence in his power was just absolutely stupid, from OP to a fucking sparring of a new force sensitive, the guy is a joke, he went downhill after that easy joke of the two stormtroopers going back when he rages, the idea of unbalanced, unstable guy is good, the development of the character in the movie has not sense and is bad, even worse than the deathstar, I read that he wanted to be saved, the guy who wrote that even saw the movie?, he killed Han only to remove an obstacle in his mind to become real evil (he should have turned more powerful),but instead he was turned in a sissy fighter. Kylo was never OP. He just looked like he was super strong because he haven't encountered any real Jedis or force users before Rey. All person surrounding him were all normal beings thats why he looked strong. 1.) old guy 2.)Poe , That is why he was shocked and reported it to Snoke when someone resisted him. So stopping a laser in the air is not OP, ok then i have read and seen the wrong SW series, the other problem is Rey how are they going to make this character interesting? She is Jesus on steroids, they have to make Snoke a God. + Show Spoiler +So because he stopped a laser he is OP? you are basing his overall power bec he stopped a laser lol. Probably all Jedis and Sith could do that OR a special trick that he learned but not yet discovered pre-ep 7 OR maybe just in Ep 7 the movie makers have thought about that. Mention another instance that he looked OP other than that scene?
1.) Killing an old man? nope
2.) Getting to Poe's mind who is a normal guy? nope
3.) Blocking the blaster shots? that is normal for anyone who uses lightsabers.. nope
4.) Got told by Gen. Hux,.. nope
5.) Resisted by Rey when he tried reading her mind.. totally not OP.
also , Basically moving a solid object which has mass is probably even harder. He just looked intimidating because of the mask and made it a LOT less of that because his face just don't quite match the character.
+ Show Spoiler +(a) He has three powers no other character has shown: magical unconsciousness, mind rape, and projectile stopping. Why does he have these three powers that no one else has if he's supposed to suck? And how'd he annihilate the Jedi Order if he's not strong?
(b) See my recent post on why, if he can get challenged by a sanitation officer when injured 'cause he kind of isn't very strong, that makes the films unsatisfying. You need a villain you can fear in Star Wars, not someone who kind of sucks. Are we allowed to post spoilers outside spoiler tags now, btw? What's TL's official position?
I doubt other Sith Lords can't do that. Mind rape is only useable when the person is restrained so useless in a fight, magical unconsciousness you're saying is almost similar to force choke. Stoping a blaster shot I think is not superior to stoping or moving huge ass and heavy things. It was most likely added for "coolness/badass factor" for the scene and new idea for the movie makers.,
-By Jedi Order you mean Luke? He's not strong enough, bec his training is incomplete. Why do people think when someone goes to the Dark Side he/she instantly make him Vader 2.0 or Maul 2.0 ..
"That's not how the force works!" - Han Solo 2015
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On December 23 2015 12:51 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 12:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:+ Show Spoiler +He didn't "get challenged" by Fin all that much. He toyed with him, was overconfident and after getting hit he simply won the fight instantly. Fin might be "sanitation officer", but he still was trained in combat since a kid because he was part of the stormtroopers.
Kylo wasn't only wounded, he also was in a very bad state of mind after just killing his own father.
The whole point of him is: VERY talented with the force, but also VERY unstable mind.
I also don't see why being strong with the force automatically should mean you are the most badass lightsaber fighter ever tbh, that's kinda two different things.
Srsly all these weird nitpicks about the last fight are so weird to me, did we watch the same movie? + Show Spoiler +It's not a weird nitpick. I explained why it mattered. How strong Kylo is, how unlikely it is that an untrained sensitive could fight him, matters hugely. It decides whether we look for in-universe explanations for the Rey fight (if his power is internally consistent) or outside-universe explanations (if it's not) - basically, are we scratching our heads because we want to figure out the mystery deliberately set before us, or are we wondering why the filmmakers fucked up. It's clear that Kylo's depiction isn't consistent given that people have offered different explanations, with multiple people saying he's not supposed to be powerful at all. Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 12:21 Chewbacca. wrote:On December 23 2015 12:09 FuzzyJAM wrote:On December 23 2015 12:00 shin_toss wrote:On December 23 2015 07:57 palexhur wrote:On December 23 2015 07:53 shin_toss wrote:On December 23 2015 07:45 palexhur wrote:On December 23 2015 03:28 TerransHill wrote:On December 23 2015 02:33 Volband wrote:
So a villain who is unstable = bad villain? What's a good villain then? xXxDestroyer_Of_LifexXx "I am literally Hitler"?
Imo with Kylo you can see someone becoming the big bad guy, and it's great. We already had Vader once shoved into our faces as "he's very strong and evil, hurr-durr", and Darth Maul being just your regular crazy, silent, ugly dude. No problem in being unstable. But... + Show Spoiler +
...he shouldn't be such a whiner all the time. He is on the dark side already, so he can't really be a nice person. It would've been ok if at some point he questions some things he did but actually his dominant attribute in the movie is whiny, he even looks wimpy. That just doesn't work out.
Also he is so fucking incompetent. He loses Poe, then he loses Rey and after that he loses the whole fucking base. And every time he rages like a whiny little kid.
If I was that Snoke guy I wouldn't pick him up from that base. In fact I would kill him and the redhead guy for such failure, trashing such a big investment.
I don't even know how you can rate a movie without any tension that high. The bad guys are just an absolute joke and a complete walkover. Is that really what you want in a movie? Feels like this is Disney Highschool Musical with the "evil" guys just being kinda mean and getting fooled all the time.
Agree with you, besides the incoherence in his power was just absolutely stupid, from OP to a fucking sparring of a new force sensitive, the guy is a joke, he went downhill after that easy joke of the two stormtroopers going back when he rages, the idea of unbalanced, unstable guy is good, the development of the character in the movie has not sense and is bad, even worse than the deathstar, I read that he wanted to be saved, the guy who wrote that even saw the movie?, he killed Han only to remove an obstacle in his mind to become real evil (he should have turned more powerful),but instead he was turned in a sissy fighter. Kylo was never OP. He just looked like he was super strong because he haven't encountered any real Jedis or force users before Rey. All person surrounding him were all normal beings thats why he looked strong. 1.) old guy 2.)Poe , That is why he was shocked and reported it to Snoke when someone resisted him. So stopping a laser in the air is not OP, ok then i have read and seen the wrong SW series, the other problem is Rey how are they going to make this character interesting? She is Jesus on steroids, they have to make Snoke a God. + Show Spoiler +So because he stopped a laser he is OP? you are basing his overall power bec he stopped a laser lol. Probably all Jedis and Sith could do that OR a special trick that he learned but not yet discovered pre-ep 7 OR maybe just in Ep 7 the movie makers have thought about that. Mention another instance that he looked OP other than that scene?
1.) Killing an old man? nope
2.) Getting to Poe's mind who is a normal guy? nope
3.) Blocking the blaster shots? that is normal for anyone who uses lightsabers.. nope
4.) Got told by Gen. Hux,.. nope
5.) Resisted by Rey when he tried reading her mind.. totally not OP.
also , Basically moving a solid object which has mass is probably even harder. He just looked intimidating because of the mask and made it a LOT less of that because his face just don't quite match the character.
+ Show Spoiler +(a) He has three powers no other character has shown: magical unconsciousness, mind rape, and projectile stopping. Why does he have these three powers that no one else has if he's supposed to suck? And how'd he annihilate the Jedi Order if he's not strong?
(b) See my recent post on why, if he can get challenged by a sanitation officer when injured 'cause he kind of isn't very strong, that makes the films unsatisfying. You need a villain you can fear in Star Wars, not someone who kind of sucks. Are we allowed to post spoilers outside spoiler tags now, btw? What's TL's official position? + Show Spoiler +We've seen Jedi controlling the minds of others...pretty much the same thing as putting someone to sleep, just that wasn't their goal.
"Mind Raping" has been shown used by Jedi quite a bit...even against stronger willed people -- See interrogation of Cad Bane.
We've seen people stop projectiles before, not sure why lasers would be any harder except that you'd need decent reactions . + Show Spoiler +If unconsciousness is the same thing, why'd no one ever do it? "Mind raping" is never shown in the films (I have no idea on EU): certainly, it was beyond Darth Vader's powers, despite how useful it'd have been for him to learn. And stopping a blaster shot seems way beyond other stuff to me - otherwise, why's it cool? Now, these unusual powers can indeed be explained away even if Kylo isn't supposed to be very powerful, but I'm saying Kylo's depiction is wonky, not that it couldn't possibly be explained by reading some books or coming up with your own ideas. Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 12:31 Plansix wrote:On December 23 2015 12:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:
He didn't "get challenged" by Fin all that much. He toyed with him, was overconfident and after getting hit he simply won the fight instantly. Fin might be "sanitation officer", but he still was trained in combat since a kid because he was part of the stormtroopers.
Kylo wasn't only wounded, he also was in a very bad state of mind after just killing his own father.
The whole point of him is: VERY talented with the force, but also VERY unstable mind.
I also don't see why being strong with the force automatically should mean you are the most badass lightsaber fighter ever tbh, that's kinda two different things.
Srsly all these weird nitpicks about the last fight are so weird to me, did we watch the same movie? + Show Spoiler +It's because the prequels, clean wars and EU stuff elevated Jedi to super heroes, rather then normal people with spiritual powers and tricks. So this every toned down version of a force user seems like he is "weak" by comparison.
But I agree the Ren was scary to almost anyone who crossed his path, even after being shot in the side. Rey barely beat him and she was a very capable fighter.
Edit: zenith, that is exactly what I'm talking about. The made Jedi into super heroes and shockingly, that got really boring because everyone else is Star Wars is normal. I got so tired of them trying to figure out new ways to make Jedi interesting. This one fights with two sabers, this one has weird force powers and fights with a bladed disk. This one uses a exploding yoyo. Thank god they got back to basics. + Show Spoiler +Like it or not (I'm very much a not) the prequels do exist and are canon. Yeah, I think the depiction of the Jedi in the prequels sucks, but it's very jarring at the least if they're calling the prequels canon but then retconning Jedi power.
Absolutely right you just nailed it, but you know maybe Rey was before a Jedi, or Finn had special melee training, or even Ren wants to be saved, or Leia and C3PO are married, blah blah blah, incoherence in powers all the way long, entertaining movie but a cheap one in the story line, now we need to nerf Rey because she already is stronger than Ren, in episode VIII he will be her puppet.
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On December 23 2015 13:09 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 12:09 FuzzyJAM wrote:On December 23 2015 12:00 shin_toss wrote:On December 23 2015 07:57 palexhur wrote:On December 23 2015 07:53 shin_toss wrote:On December 23 2015 07:45 palexhur wrote:On December 23 2015 03:28 TerransHill wrote:On December 23 2015 02:33 Volband wrote:
So a villain who is unstable = bad villain? What's a good villain then? xXxDestroyer_Of_LifexXx "I am literally Hitler"?
Imo with Kylo you can see someone becoming the big bad guy, and it's great. We already had Vader once shoved into our faces as "he's very strong and evil, hurr-durr", and Darth Maul being just your regular crazy, silent, ugly dude. No problem in being unstable. But... + Show Spoiler +
...he shouldn't be such a whiner all the time. He is on the dark side already, so he can't really be a nice person. It would've been ok if at some point he questions some things he did but actually his dominant attribute in the movie is whiny, he even looks wimpy. That just doesn't work out.
Also he is so fucking incompetent. He loses Poe, then he loses Rey and after that he loses the whole fucking base. And every time he rages like a whiny little kid.
If I was that Snoke guy I wouldn't pick him up from that base. In fact I would kill him and the redhead guy for such failure, trashing such a big investment.
I don't even know how you can rate a movie without any tension that high. The bad guys are just an absolute joke and a complete walkover. Is that really what you want in a movie? Feels like this is Disney Highschool Musical with the "evil" guys just being kinda mean and getting fooled all the time.
Agree with you, besides the incoherence in his power was just absolutely stupid, from OP to a fucking sparring of a new force sensitive, the guy is a joke, he went downhill after that easy joke of the two stormtroopers going back when he rages, the idea of unbalanced, unstable guy is good, the development of the character in the movie has not sense and is bad, even worse than the deathstar, I read that he wanted to be saved, the guy who wrote that even saw the movie?, he killed Han only to remove an obstacle in his mind to become real evil (he should have turned more powerful),but instead he was turned in a sissy fighter. Kylo was never OP. He just looked like he was super strong because he haven't encountered any real Jedis or force users before Rey. All person surrounding him were all normal beings thats why he looked strong. 1.) old guy 2.)Poe , That is why he was shocked and reported it to Snoke when someone resisted him. So stopping a laser in the air is not OP, ok then i have read and seen the wrong SW series, the other problem is Rey how are they going to make this character interesting? She is Jesus on steroids, they have to make Snoke a God. + Show Spoiler +So because he stopped a laser he is OP? you are basing his overall power bec he stopped a laser lol. Probably all Jedis and Sith could do that OR a special trick that he learned but not yet discovered pre-ep 7 OR maybe just in Ep 7 the movie makers have thought about that. Mention another instance that he looked OP other than that scene?
1.) Killing an old man? nope
2.) Getting to Poe's mind who is a normal guy? nope
3.) Blocking the blaster shots? that is normal for anyone who uses lightsabers.. nope
4.) Got told by Gen. Hux,.. nope
5.) Resisted by Rey when he tried reading her mind.. totally not OP.
also , Basically moving a solid object which has mass is probably even harder. He just looked intimidating because of the mask and made it a LOT less of that because his face just don't quite match the character.
+ Show Spoiler +(a) He has three powers no other character has shown: magical unconsciousness, mind rape, and projectile stopping. Why does he have these three powers that no one else has if he's supposed to suck? And how'd he annihilate the Jedi Order if he's not strong?
(b) See my recent post on why, if he can get challenged by a sanitation officer when injured 'cause he kind of isn't very strong, that makes the films unsatisfying. You need a villain you can fear in Star Wars, not someone who kind of sucks. Are we allowed to post spoilers outside spoiler tags now, btw? What's TL's official position? I doubt other Sith Lords can't do that. Mind rape is only useable when the person is restrained so useless in a fight, magical unconsciousness you're saying is almost similar to force choke. Stoping a blaster shot I think is not superior to stoping or moving huge ass and heavy things. It was most likely added for "coolness/badass factor" for the scene and new idea for the movie makers., -By Jedi Order you mean Luke? He's not strong enough, bec his training is incomplete. Why do people think when someone goes to the Dark Side he/she instantly make him Vader 2.0 or Maul 2.0 .. "That's not how the force works!" - Han Solo 2015
Did you saw the same movie that I did, when Luke beat Vader??, so Luke now is an incompetent Jedi, and btw tell me about another Jedi, Sith or whatever who can stop a laser, I am here to read it.
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On December 23 2015 13:12 palexhur wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 13:09 shin_toss wrote:On December 23 2015 12:09 FuzzyJAM wrote:On December 23 2015 12:00 shin_toss wrote:On December 23 2015 07:57 palexhur wrote:On December 23 2015 07:53 shin_toss wrote:On December 23 2015 07:45 palexhur wrote:On December 23 2015 03:28 TerransHill wrote:On December 23 2015 02:33 Volband wrote:
So a villain who is unstable = bad villain? What's a good villain then? xXxDestroyer_Of_LifexXx "I am literally Hitler"?
Imo with Kylo you can see someone becoming the big bad guy, and it's great. We already had Vader once shoved into our faces as "he's very strong and evil, hurr-durr", and Darth Maul being just your regular crazy, silent, ugly dude. No problem in being unstable. But... + Show Spoiler +
...he shouldn't be such a whiner all the time. He is on the dark side already, so he can't really be a nice person. It would've been ok if at some point he questions some things he did but actually his dominant attribute in the movie is whiny, he even looks wimpy. That just doesn't work out.
Also he is so fucking incompetent. He loses Poe, then he loses Rey and after that he loses the whole fucking base. And every time he rages like a whiny little kid.
If I was that Snoke guy I wouldn't pick him up from that base. In fact I would kill him and the redhead guy for such failure, trashing such a big investment.
I don't even know how you can rate a movie without any tension that high. The bad guys are just an absolute joke and a complete walkover. Is that really what you want in a movie? Feels like this is Disney Highschool Musical with the "evil" guys just being kinda mean and getting fooled all the time.
Agree with you, besides the incoherence in his power was just absolutely stupid, from OP to a fucking sparring of a new force sensitive, the guy is a joke, he went downhill after that easy joke of the two stormtroopers going back when he rages, the idea of unbalanced, unstable guy is good, the development of the character in the movie has not sense and is bad, even worse than the deathstar, I read that he wanted to be saved, the guy who wrote that even saw the movie?, he killed Han only to remove an obstacle in his mind to become real evil (he should have turned more powerful),but instead he was turned in a sissy fighter. Kylo was never OP. He just looked like he was super strong because he haven't encountered any real Jedis or force users before Rey. All person surrounding him were all normal beings thats why he looked strong. 1.) old guy 2.)Poe , That is why he was shocked and reported it to Snoke when someone resisted him. So stopping a laser in the air is not OP, ok then i have read and seen the wrong SW series, the other problem is Rey how are they going to make this character interesting? She is Jesus on steroids, they have to make Snoke a God. + Show Spoiler +So because he stopped a laser he is OP? you are basing his overall power bec he stopped a laser lol. Probably all Jedis and Sith could do that OR a special trick that he learned but not yet discovered pre-ep 7 OR maybe just in Ep 7 the movie makers have thought about that. Mention another instance that he looked OP other than that scene?
1.) Killing an old man? nope
2.) Getting to Poe's mind who is a normal guy? nope
3.) Blocking the blaster shots? that is normal for anyone who uses lightsabers.. nope
4.) Got told by Gen. Hux,.. nope
5.) Resisted by Rey when he tried reading her mind.. totally not OP.
also , Basically moving a solid object which has mass is probably even harder. He just looked intimidating because of the mask and made it a LOT less of that because his face just don't quite match the character.
+ Show Spoiler +(a) He has three powers no other character has shown: magical unconsciousness, mind rape, and projectile stopping. Why does he have these three powers that no one else has if he's supposed to suck? And how'd he annihilate the Jedi Order if he's not strong?
(b) See my recent post on why, if he can get challenged by a sanitation officer when injured 'cause he kind of isn't very strong, that makes the films unsatisfying. You need a villain you can fear in Star Wars, not someone who kind of sucks. Are we allowed to post spoilers outside spoiler tags now, btw? What's TL's official position? I doubt other Sith Lords can't do that. Mind rape is only useable when the person is restrained so useless in a fight, magical unconsciousness you're saying is almost similar to force choke. Stoping a blaster shot I think is not superior to stoping or moving huge ass and heavy things. It was most likely added for "coolness/badass factor" for the scene and new idea for the movie makers., -By Jedi Order you mean Luke? He's not strong enough, bec his training is incomplete. Why do people think when someone goes to the Dark Side he/she instantly make him Vader 2.0 or Maul 2.0 .. "That's not how the force works!" - Han Solo 2015 Did you saw the same movie that I did, when Luke beat Vader??, so Luke now is an incompetent Jedi, and btw tell me about another Jedi, Sith or whatever who can stop a laser, I am here to read it.
He used the dark side and Vader wanted to lose? Did you watch that movie? Luke uses the dark side to beat Vader and then rejects it by not killing him. That's how he completes his training, but using the dark side and rejecting it's power.
And Star Wars isn't real, the force can stop a blaster bolt if the writers/directors want it to. It doesn't change anything.
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@Plansix,He beat Vader, he is a very strong Jedi, even when he used the rage to do it, He is very strong, whatever his motivation was, he beat the chosen one, or you think like this other guy that Luke is a scrub Jedi?, lol at your other thing: SW isnt real, well you are amazing, so why you tried so hard to explain things about something that is not real (you are like this in every thread) i am bored now, I II just give up, enjoy your life, lets hope for the fourth deathstar and you can be a happier guy. Cya gl.
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On December 23 2015 13:03 CobaltBlu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I personally find the flawed Kylo Ren a lot more interesting than the deadly but dull Darth Maul or Count Dooku. I don't accept the condition that Ren needs to be a polished expert in order to be an interesting villain. At the end of the film Snoke literally says he needs to recall him in order to finish his training. This is the first movie of a trilogy and there is a lot of room for his character to change and grow over the trilogy.
I think it is interesting that the reactions of some fans to Kylo mirrors the character's own feelings of inadequacy.
+ Show Spoiler +Maul and Dooku are fucking awful, but being better than the prequels is absolute baseline. Yes, that's been achieved, now what? The issue is not that Kylo isn't hugely powerful, it's that we're not really sure how powerful he is. It's extremely difficult to identify with a struggle or feel excited when difficulties are overcome when you have no grasp of how hard that struggle is supposed to be. A secondary concern is that, if he's not that powerful, who's the major villain of the film? Maybe you're OK not having a powerful villain in the film because one will show up in a sequel or something, IDK, but I think that sucks. Different tastes, I guess.
On December 23 2015 13:09 shin_toss wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 12:09 FuzzyJAM wrote:On December 23 2015 12:00 shin_toss wrote:On December 23 2015 07:57 palexhur wrote:On December 23 2015 07:53 shin_toss wrote:On December 23 2015 07:45 palexhur wrote:On December 23 2015 03:28 TerransHill wrote:On December 23 2015 02:33 Volband wrote:
So a villain who is unstable = bad villain? What's a good villain then? xXxDestroyer_Of_LifexXx "I am literally Hitler"?
Imo with Kylo you can see someone becoming the big bad guy, and it's great. We already had Vader once shoved into our faces as "he's very strong and evil, hurr-durr", and Darth Maul being just your regular crazy, silent, ugly dude. No problem in being unstable. But... + Show Spoiler +
...he shouldn't be such a whiner all the time. He is on the dark side already, so he can't really be a nice person. It would've been ok if at some point he questions some things he did but actually his dominant attribute in the movie is whiny, he even looks wimpy. That just doesn't work out.
Also he is so fucking incompetent. He loses Poe, then he loses Rey and after that he loses the whole fucking base. And every time he rages like a whiny little kid.
If I was that Snoke guy I wouldn't pick him up from that base. In fact I would kill him and the redhead guy for such failure, trashing such a big investment.
I don't even know how you can rate a movie without any tension that high. The bad guys are just an absolute joke and a complete walkover. Is that really what you want in a movie? Feels like this is Disney Highschool Musical with the "evil" guys just being kinda mean and getting fooled all the time.
Agree with you, besides the incoherence in his power was just absolutely stupid, from OP to a fucking sparring of a new force sensitive, the guy is a joke, he went downhill after that easy joke of the two stormtroopers going back when he rages, the idea of unbalanced, unstable guy is good, the development of the character in the movie has not sense and is bad, even worse than the deathstar, I read that he wanted to be saved, the guy who wrote that even saw the movie?, he killed Han only to remove an obstacle in his mind to become real evil (he should have turned more powerful),but instead he was turned in a sissy fighter. Kylo was never OP. He just looked like he was super strong because he haven't encountered any real Jedis or force users before Rey. All person surrounding him were all normal beings thats why he looked strong. 1.) old guy 2.)Poe , That is why he was shocked and reported it to Snoke when someone resisted him. So stopping a laser in the air is not OP, ok then i have read and seen the wrong SW series, the other problem is Rey how are they going to make this character interesting? She is Jesus on steroids, they have to make Snoke a God. + Show Spoiler +So because he stopped a laser he is OP? you are basing his overall power bec he stopped a laser lol. Probably all Jedis and Sith could do that OR a special trick that he learned but not yet discovered pre-ep 7 OR maybe just in Ep 7 the movie makers have thought about that. Mention another instance that he looked OP other than that scene?
1.) Killing an old man? nope
2.) Getting to Poe's mind who is a normal guy? nope
3.) Blocking the blaster shots? that is normal for anyone who uses lightsabers.. nope
4.) Got told by Gen. Hux,.. nope
5.) Resisted by Rey when he tried reading her mind.. totally not OP.
also , Basically moving a solid object which has mass is probably even harder. He just looked intimidating because of the mask and made it a LOT less of that because his face just don't quite match the character.
+ Show Spoiler +(a) He has three powers no other character has shown: magical unconsciousness, mind rape, and projectile stopping. Why does he have these three powers that no one else has if he's supposed to suck? And how'd he annihilate the Jedi Order if he's not strong?
(b) See my recent post on why, if he can get challenged by a sanitation officer when injured 'cause he kind of isn't very strong, that makes the films unsatisfying. You need a villain you can fear in Star Wars, not someone who kind of sucks. Are we allowed to post spoilers outside spoiler tags now, btw? What's TL's official position? + Show Spoiler +I doubt other Sith Lords can't do that. Mind rape is only useable when the person is restrained so useless in a fight, magical unconsciousness you're saying is almost similar to force choke. Stoping a blaster shot I think is not superior to stoping or moving huge ass and heavy things. It was most likely added for "coolness/badass factor" for the scene and new idea for the movie makers.,
-By Jedi Order you mean Luke? He's not strong enough, bec his training is incomplete. Why do people think when someone goes to the Dark Side he/she instantly make him Vader 2.0 or Maul 2.0 ..
"That's not how the force works!" - Han Solo 2015
+ Show Spoiler +If Vader can do it, why does he rely on torture droids and choking to extract info? By Jedi Order I mean the other Jedi Luke was apparently training up. I think it's mentioned in the film, not 100% sure - at any rate, it's apparently canon that Kylo wiped out the rest of the (trainee?) Jedi.
The idea that Luke never completed his training so was kind of weak himself - that's really not what the films suggest in the slightest.
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None of that makes him all powerful or able to stop Ren if he killed the other students while Luke was away. And once again, Vader didn't want to win.
Edit: super fans sometimes forget that all the stuff in these movies was created to tell stories about characters. The force, death star and all the rest were just trappings around the main characters. Not the other way around.
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tbh first half of this movie was fucking awesome, second half with 15 xwings soloing death star and kylo ren thats been training his whole life loses to a girl who just picked up a lightsaber for the first time are the two things i disslike. Still a good movie will definently see next one
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People have been reflecting blaster shots left and right in the prequels and often moved or stopped things midair. I fail to see how stopping a blaster shot is more impressive than continuously throwing senate hover-thingies after somebody. It looks more impressive, but shooting it back at people or block it and push the person down is usually more efficient.
We also see Vader block blaster shots with his bare hand f.e.
Tbh I like Ren, I like that he's not super awesome and is supposed to grow and be more of a rival type character for the main cast. Darth hologramm is clearly the evil mastermind, so there is a threat should Ren just die (which he won't).
Also again Ray is only stronger than Ren so far when Ren has been bleeding heavily for more than ten minutes while moving a lot. Exhaustion and wounds killed Jedis and Sith in the EU, I don't see why so many people seem to ignore that.
Ren for me looked like a littelbit weaker than Obi-Wan in ep.1 or Anakin in ep. 2. He has some powers, tends to be overconfident, but is rather inexperienced and makes lots of mistakes.
And yes I could see Obi Wan heavily bleeding loosing to a person with fighting experience but no Jedi training yet when the fight drags out.
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It took 3 named characters to bring the guy down. In movie logic, that's pretty impressive.
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Just my thoughts, spoiler just in case.
+ Show Spoiler +To me it seemed like early in the movie when he was sure of himself, calm and confident he was most powerful. By the time he had rey tied up, he already had a few tantrums and was emotional, then with her natrual force ability kicking in to reject his he lost confidence and got weaker. At the end fight he was not only shot and beat up a bit, but also emotional, fighting with anger and rage. Made sense why he'd lose to me, at least.
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On December 23 2015 12:41 Plansix wrote:
Poe was supposed to die, but they brought him back after test screening and liking the banter. But they couldn't work him in until the first scenes with the fighter. So you are correct it was awkward, but it was a very late change.
That's interesting.
My initial thought after watching the movie for the 1st time "He should've stayed dead. It'd be awesome if a "good" character would die".
But - like them - I loved his banter & his character. He's the guy I loved the most.
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Sometimes the death is interesting but the character is better. I just assumed Poe did what he could but ultimately was better served returning to the Resistance headquarters than finding the BasketBall droid. Reminds me of the awkward but ultimately iconic last minute changes within the original Star Wars.
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I liked the villain. His flaws are what make his defeat plausible. It's better than some powerful villain whose defeat just comes out of nowhere.
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On December 23 2015 09:44 Orcasgt24 wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 00:37 LegalLord wrote:On December 23 2015 00:09 Volband wrote:
One thing I did not understand however, is why there were only X-wings? You are attacking a base on a planet and you don't even bring Y-wings to the battles??!! I know they are going to top off the space and lightsaber (and we'll probbaly have ground as well) battles in the next episodes, so they did not want to go full out, but come on... at least bring two and say these were the only ones they could get ready in time or something. That annoyed me more than anything. My guess would be that X-Wings have evolved further to serve as a versatile fighter-bomber craft rather than just a fighter. Y-Wings were phased out once someone figured out how to put Proton Torpedoes on X-Wings. The only advantage the Y-Wing has over the X-Wing is shielding and a heavier nose cannon (which is really just over kill). X-Wings are an all purpose air superiority/bomber. I am kinda surprised they didn't bring the A-Wing though (the ship that crashed into the bridge of a super star destroyed in ROTJ). Those eat TIE Fighters for breakfast, they are so fast
Didn't X-wing already have that? I know they had torpedoes, as I believe it was a torpedo shot which destroyed the first Death Star, and you could shoot them in SW: Rogue Squadron as well. Also, didn't Y-wings had a projectile which resembled some kind of static ball (like the ones Tie Bombers were dropping), with the ability to even carpet bomb?
I just find it really dumb if it's true that now we have these new X-wings which replaced everything else. Not only I refuse to believe that you can make an aircraft into the best air-to-ground AND the best air-to-air plane simultaneously, it totally kills the vibe of a real fleet. We already had X, Y, A, and B-wings in the original trilogy and you just knew shit was real when they showed up at the same time. Now, instead of getting more of those, I'm here wondering if X-wings will shoot out tow cables at AT-ATs from now on.
I missed the Tie Interceptors as well, they were the coolest.
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On December 23 2015 12:31 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 12:18 The_Red_Viper wrote:
He didn't "get challenged" by Fin all that much. He toyed with him, was overconfident and after getting hit he simply won the fight instantly. Fin might be "sanitation officer", but he still was trained in combat since a kid because he was part of the stormtroopers.
Kylo wasn't only wounded, he also was in a very bad state of mind after just killing his own father.
The whole point of him is: VERY talented with the force, but also VERY unstable mind.
I also don't see why being strong with the force automatically should mean you are the most badass lightsaber fighter ever tbh, that's kinda two different things.
Srsly all these weird nitpicks about the last fight are so weird to me, did we watch the same movie? It's because the prequels, clean wars and EU stuff elevated Jedi to super heroes, rather then normal people with spiritual powers and tricks. So this every toned down version of a force user seems like he is "weak" by comparison. But I agree the Ren was scary to almost anyone who crossed his path, even after being shot in the side. Rey barely beat him and she was a very capable fighter. Edit: zenith, that is exactly what I'm talking about. The made Jedi into super heroes and shockingly, that got really boring because everyone else is Star Wars is normal. I got so tired of them trying to figure out new ways to make Jedi interesting. This one fights with two sabers, this one has weird force powers and fights with a bladed disk. This one uses a exploding yoyo. Thank god they got back to basics.
Yes, yes and yes. I agree with you completelly.
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On December 23 2015 16:15 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 09:44 Orcasgt24 wrote:On December 23 2015 00:37 LegalLord wrote:On December 23 2015 00:09 Volband wrote:
One thing I did not understand however, is why there were only X-wings? You are attacking a base on a planet and you don't even bring Y-wings to the battles??!! I know they are going to top off the space and lightsaber (and we'll probbaly have ground as well) battles in the next episodes, so they did not want to go full out, but come on... at least bring two and say these were the only ones they could get ready in time or something. That annoyed me more than anything. My guess would be that X-Wings have evolved further to serve as a versatile fighter-bomber craft rather than just a fighter. Y-Wings were phased out once someone figured out how to put Proton Torpedoes on X-Wings. The only advantage the Y-Wing has over the X-Wing is shielding and a heavier nose cannon (which is really just over kill). X-Wings are an all purpose air superiority/bomber. I am kinda surprised they didn't bring the A-Wing though (the ship that crashed into the bridge of a super star destroyed in ROTJ). Those eat TIE Fighters for breakfast, they are so fast Didn't X-wing already have that? I know they had torpedoes, as I believe it was a torpedo shot which destroyed the first Death Star, and you could shoot them in SW: Rogue Squadron as well. Also, didn't Y-wings had a projectile which resembled some kind of static ball (like the ones Tie Bombers were dropping), with the ability to even carpet bomb? I just find it really dumb if it's true that now we have these new X-wings which replaced everything else. Not only I refuse to believe that you can make an aircraft into the best air-to-ground AND the best air-to-air plane simultaneously, it totally kills the vibe of a real fleet. We already had X, Y, A, and B-wings in the original trilogy and you just knew shit was real when they showed up at the same time. Now, instead of getting more of those, I'm here wondering if X-wings will shoot out tow cables at AT-ATs from now on. I missed the Tie Interceptors as well, they were the coolest.
Y-Wings are slow but hard hitting bombers. A useless specialty for the Resistance I would assume. They don't do bombing runs and what little Air to Ground attacking they need done, X-Wings can provide. Y-Wings also perform very poorly against TIE Fighters in air to air combat (Rouge Squadron on hard during the Y-Wing levels...uhg). The best use for them is capturing ships in space because they have an ion cannon turret and heavy enough shielding to take the necessary beating to line the shot up.
Its just not a useful ship. The USAF bombers are all multi useage except for the extremely highly specialized B2 Stealth Bomber. The problem with the Y-Wing in the SW uni is it's not specialized enough and not good enough at everything. X-Wings are OP lol.
Tie Interceptors were cool. We still may see them I hope! The battle in this movie were small.
X-Wings can just shoot Proton torps at the walker's head. Way easier way to kill it :p
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On December 23 2015 16:15 Volband wrote:Show nested quote +On December 23 2015 09:44 Orcasgt24 wrote:On December 23 2015 00:37 LegalLord wrote:On December 23 2015 00:09 Volband wrote:
One thing I did not understand however, is why there were only X-wings? You are attacking a base on a planet and you don't even bring Y-wings to the battles??!! I know they are going to top off the space and lightsaber (and we'll probbaly have ground as well) battles in the next episodes, so they did not want to go full out, but come on... at least bring two and say these were the only ones they could get ready in time or something. That annoyed me more than anything. My guess would be that X-Wings have evolved further to serve as a versatile fighter-bomber craft rather than just a fighter. Y-Wings were phased out once someone figured out how to put Proton Torpedoes on X-Wings. The only advantage the Y-Wing has over the X-Wing is shielding and a heavier nose cannon (which is really just over kill). X-Wings are an all purpose air superiority/bomber. I am kinda surprised they didn't bring the A-Wing though (the ship that crashed into the bridge of a super star destroyed in ROTJ). Those eat TIE Fighters for breakfast, they are so fast Didn't X-wing already have that? I know they had torpedoes, as I believe it was a torpedo shot which destroyed the first Death Star, and you could shoot them in SW: Rogue Squadron as well. Also, didn't Y-wings had a projectile which resembled some kind of static ball (like the ones Tie Bombers were dropping), with the ability to even carpet bomb? I just find it really dumb if it's true that now we have these new X-wings which replaced everything else. Not only I refuse to believe that you can make an aircraft into the best air-to-ground AND the best air-to-air plane simultaneously, it totally kills the vibe of a real fleet. We already had X, Y, A, and B-wings in the original trilogy and you just knew shit was real when they showed up at the same time. Now, instead of getting more of those, I'm here wondering if X-wings will shoot out tow cables at AT-ATs from now on. I missed the Tie Interceptors as well, they were the coolest.
From what I understand from the art books and the novelization, the Resistance is way smaller than even the Rebel Alliance. The New Republic, which I'm sure still has a variety of ships, only tolerates the Resistance and doesn't even support them much, if at all. So it makes sense that the Restance would have to rely on a small fleet of the most well-rounded fighter that they could field.
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EPT
