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Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - Page 130

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We made a thread specifically for Episode 8 now, let us head over to that one
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/entertainment/521373-star-wars-episode-viii-the-last-jedi
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22515 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-23 00:03:00
December 23 2015 00:02 GMT
#2581
On December 23 2015 08:52 The_Red_Viper wrote:
How is the villain a joke? I simply cannot understand this pov. Did we watch the same movie?
The villain needs to be evil and shouldn't show any emotions other than anger? Is that the problem here?
Did you think the prequels had good villains?

Maul was emotionless with a bit of anger but that was fine cause he was only in half the movie. Dooku had control and charisma.
Vader when we first see him is a mystery and later when he gains depth it is a big reveal, both him being the father and later on having good left in him. Most of the time he is a representation of a faceless evil.

Ren is a kid in puberty who rebels against his family by doing drugs (the dark side) and hanging out with the crazy granddad.
His human side reveal was wasted in the Rey interrogation when it should have been saved for Han and his whimpyness will work against him being a villain spanning multiple movies.
He is everything e3 Anakin was but worse because at least Anakin had a reason for turning to the dark side.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-23 00:05:17
December 23 2015 00:04 GMT
#2582
On December 23 2015 08:52 The_Red_Viper wrote:
How is the villain a joke? I simply cannot understand this pov. Did we watch the same movie?
The villain needs to be evil and shouldn't show any emotions other than anger? Is that the problem here?
Did you think the prequels had good villains?

They win points for the dumbest names in movies. Darth Maul, the wordless club. Court Dooku or Darth Tyranus(a man who secretly wished to be a T-rex as child.) And Dark Sidious, like insidious. Get it, insidious? It means operating or proceeding in an inconspicuous or seemingly harmless way but actually with grave effect. Get it??? Hes like a senator, but secretly a sith lord. He seems harmless, but he isn't.

And General Grievous. Like grievous the word, which means causing or characterized by severe pain, suffering, or sorrow. That means he is a bad guy.

Seriously, fuck those movies and their stupid, stupid writing.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
tofucake
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
Hyrule19236 Posts
December 23 2015 00:16 GMT
#2583
then do us all a favor and shutup.
Liquipediaasante sana squash banana
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18408 Posts
December 23 2015 00:18 GMT
#2584
First off, I loved the villain. He and Rey were the best parts of a (good) movie. I like how he is basically a rebellious teenage boy with great potential, but atm more prone to throwing temper tantrums than thinking things through. He is Anakin done right. The only thing about him that I feel is missing is a credible explanation of how Han and Leia's son, being trained by Luke, was so easy to draw astray by some unknown mega bad guy. He should have 2 great male role models in his parent and his sensai, so why revert to Darth Vader as his model? What went wrong in his upbringing?

So given that, I may not be completely impartial in saying that the only good villain in the prequels was Palpatine (and I guess Anakin at the very end of 3). Jango Fett was fine, but not as memorable as his son.

Grievous and Darth Maul existed to provide lightsaber fights. They have no backstory worth mentioning (in the movies) and just look menacing and evil before engaging the heroes in a duel. Dooku did not even provide an engaging lightsaber battle, instead we had Yoda hopping around like a flee, and his "backstory" is even more out of left field than the other two. They are all three completely generic evil bad guys (tm). Kylo Ren is far more engaging. He may very well be the most fleshed out bad guy in a single Star Wars movie yet. Vader is awesome, and absolutely my favourte movie bad guy ever. However, his exposition in ANH was not great. A cynic would say that he was a generic bad guy in a mask who was evil for the sake of being evil (and he killed Luke's father) all the way up to the lightsaber fight with Obi Wan (which was more intriguing than Ren vs. Rey). The real development of Vader's character came in Empire and RotJ.
The_Red_Viper
Profile Blog Joined August 2013
19533 Posts
December 23 2015 00:19 GMT
#2585
On December 23 2015 09:16 tofucake wrote:
then do us all a favor and shutup.

What?
IU | Sohyang || There is no God and we are his prophets | For if ‘Thou mayest’—it is also true that ‘Thou mayest not.” | Ignorance is the parent of fear |
Acrofales
Profile Joined August 2010
Spain18408 Posts
December 23 2015 00:42 GMT
#2586
While we're on the topic of bad guys. I have heard three theories (more or less credible) for who Snoke is:

1. Jar Jar Binks
2. Palpatine
3. Anakin's father

Of these, I think either 1 or 3 could be good, although I find 1 extremely unlikely. I think for 3 it would need a very good story why he was not involved with the Empire, and he appeared now. Anyway, the theory goes that he is the force user Palpatine referred to when tempting Anakin. The super powerful Sith lord who could resurrect people through the manipulation of midiclorians. The idea is that he manipulated midiclorians into getting Anakin's mother pregnant. Presumably to create an heir.
Orcasgt24
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada3238 Posts
December 23 2015 00:44 GMT
#2587
On December 23 2015 00:37 LegalLord wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2015 00:09 Volband wrote:
One thing I did not understand however, is why there were only X-wings? You are attacking a base on a planet and you don't even bring Y-wings to the battles??!! I know they are going to top off the space and lightsaber (and we'll probbaly have ground as well) battles in the next episodes, so they did not want to go full out, but come on... at least bring two and say these were the only ones they could get ready in time or something. That annoyed me more than anything.

My guess would be that X-Wings have evolved further to serve as a versatile fighter-bomber craft rather than just a fighter.

Y-Wings were phased out once someone figured out how to put Proton Torpedoes on X-Wings. The only advantage the Y-Wing has over the X-Wing is shielding and a heavier nose cannon (which is really just over kill). X-Wings are an all purpose air superiority/bomber.

I am kinda surprised they didn't bring the A-Wing though (the ship that crashed into the bridge of a super star destroyed in ROTJ). Those eat TIE Fighters for breakfast, they are so fast
In Hearthstone we pray to RNGesus. When Yogg-Saron hits the field, RNGod gets to work
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 23 2015 00:47 GMT
#2588
On December 23 2015 09:16 tofucake wrote:
then do us all a favor and shutup.

Only if the "the new villain is whiny and a wimp" also have too.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Gorsameth
Profile Joined April 2010
Netherlands22515 Posts
December 23 2015 00:47 GMT
#2589
On December 23 2015 09:44 Orcasgt24 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2015 00:37 LegalLord wrote:
On December 23 2015 00:09 Volband wrote:
One thing I did not understand however, is why there were only X-wings? You are attacking a base on a planet and you don't even bring Y-wings to the battles??!! I know they are going to top off the space and lightsaber (and we'll probbaly have ground as well) battles in the next episodes, so they did not want to go full out, but come on... at least bring two and say these were the only ones they could get ready in time or something. That annoyed me more than anything.

My guess would be that X-Wings have evolved further to serve as a versatile fighter-bomber craft rather than just a fighter.

Y-Wings were phased out once someone figured out how to put Proton Torpedoes on X-Wings. The only advantage the Y-Wing has over the X-Wing is shielding and a heavier nose cannon (which is really just over kill). X-Wings are an all purpose air superiority/bomber.

I am kinda surprised they didn't bring the A-Wing though (the ship that crashed into the bridge of a super star destroyed in ROTJ). Those eat TIE Fighters for breakfast, they are so fast

Their entire fleet consisted of a dozen X-wiings. They just don't have any resources.
It ignores such insignificant forces as time, entropy, and death
ticklishmusic
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States15977 Posts
December 23 2015 01:12 GMT
#2590
Maybe if we started a little earlier on with Kylo Ren's fall to the dark side he wouldn't come off as a Hot Topic wearing, MCR listening angsty teen with affluenza and various first world problems.

TBH overall I think Episode 7 was good but really feel like an episode 6.5 or something to give us some details to bridge the end of 6 to the beginning of 7 would have helped.
(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Chewbacca.
Profile Joined January 2011
United States3634 Posts
December 23 2015 01:24 GMT
#2591
On December 23 2015 09:18 Acrofales wrote:
First off, I loved the villain. He and Rey were the best parts of a (good) movie. I like how he is basically a rebellious teenage boy with great potential, but atm more prone to throwing temper tantrums than thinking things through. He is Anakin done right. The only thing about him that I feel is missing is a credible explanation of how Han and Leia's son, being trained by Luke, was so easy to draw astray by some unknown mega bad guy. He should have 2 great male role models in his parent and his sensai, so why revert to Darth Vader as his model? What went wrong in his upbringing?

So given that, I may not be completely impartial in saying that the only good villain in the prequels was Palpatine (and I guess Anakin at the very end of 3). Jango Fett was fine, but not as memorable as his son.

Grievous and Darth Maul existed to provide lightsaber fights. They have no backstory worth mentioning (in the movies) and just look menacing and evil before engaging the heroes in a duel. Dooku did not even provide an engaging lightsaber battle, instead we had Yoda hopping around like a flee, and his "backstory" is even more out of left field than the other two. They are all three completely generic evil bad guys (tm). Kylo Ren is far more engaging. He may very well be the most fleshed out bad guy in a single Star Wars movie yet. Vader is awesome, and absolutely my favourte movie bad guy ever. However, his exposition in ANH was not great. A cynic would say that he was a generic bad guy in a mask who was evil for the sake of being evil (and he killed Luke's father) all the way up to the lightsaber fight with Obi Wan (which was more intriguing than Ren vs. Rey). The real development of Vader's character came in Empire and RotJ.


I'm not sure Han would classify as a great male role model for a Jedi.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 23 2015 01:28 GMT
#2592
I think Star Wars has pretty clearly established that the risk of being corrupted by the dark side is real, no matter what circumstances. Luke had never trained a Jedi and its not hard to see that going sideways.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
Hdizz
Profile Joined November 2010
Canada93 Posts
December 23 2015 01:30 GMT
#2593
I wonder if some of the plot got shoehorned into the movie by Disney as a way to sell more merchandise + Show Spoiler +
For example the super-sized Death Star
You can't really blame the movie people for stuff like that.They know how it impacts their film but there's a lot of money riding on this thing so Disney has to make it back somehow.

I thought a lot of the first scenes + Show Spoiler +
On Jakku
were some of the best I've seen in a star wars movie. Abrams absolutely killed it there.
Manit0u
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
Poland17826 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-23 02:09:53
December 23 2015 02:08 GMT
#2594
On December 23 2015 09:44 Orcasgt24 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2015 00:37 LegalLord wrote:
On December 23 2015 00:09 Volband wrote:
One thing I did not understand however, is why there were only X-wings? You are attacking a base on a planet and you don't even bring Y-wings to the battles??!! I know they are going to top off the space and lightsaber (and we'll probbaly have ground as well) battles in the next episodes, so they did not want to go full out, but come on... at least bring two and say these were the only ones they could get ready in time or something. That annoyed me more than anything.

My guess would be that X-Wings have evolved further to serve as a versatile fighter-bomber craft rather than just a fighter.

Y-Wings were phased out once someone figured out how to put Proton Torpedoes on X-Wings. The only advantage the Y-Wing has over the X-Wing is shielding and a heavier nose cannon (which is really just over kill). X-Wings are an all purpose air superiority/bomber.

I am kinda surprised they didn't bring the A-Wing though (the ship that crashed into the bridge of a super star destroyed in ROTJ). Those eat TIE Fighters for breakfast, they are so fast


The best thing about T-70 is that they actually made it closer to the original concept art from 1975 than OT did with older X-wing versions.

[image loading]
Time is precious. Waste it wisely.
Zocat
Profile Joined April 2010
Germany2229 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-23 02:32:14
December 23 2015 02:31 GMT
#2595
On December 23 2015 06:17 Gorsameth wrote:
Show nested quote +
On December 23 2015 06:10 Plansix wrote:
On December 23 2015 06:05 Gorsameth wrote:
On December 23 2015 03:36 Plansix wrote:
On December 23 2015 03:09 CobaltBlu wrote:
Kylo Ren is a lot like what Anakin should have been in the prequels. He is a young guy with a lot of raw power but he has been mislead down a darker path. He's a tool being used by Snoke (who better to corrupt than the son of the leader of the resistance) and isn't the man with the plan. He would be a way less interesting person if he was totally competent, completely trained and totally in control. I don't think it is a mistake that he looks a bit nerdy and out of his depth with his mask off.

Making him look so young was totally intentional. They wanted that moment of “oh shit, he is just a kid,” to sink in. And the adolescent, uncontrolled rage that he exhibited just drove the point home that he isn’t in control. Extremely dangerous, but not in control.

Puberty doesn't make for a compelling villain and that is basically all that Ren is. He is a kid rebelling against his parents by doing drugs(dark side).

I found him compelling and interesting. Especially since the actor is 32, but looks more like he is in his mid 20s in the film. He looks slightly older that Rey.

Opinions differ I guess :p I think the main issue for me is that his reveal comes way to early. If he only took off the mask and became a boy when he faces Han it would have made the moment more powerful


I rewatched the movie today and this is one of my biggest gripes as well. He shouldn't have revealed his face for Rey. Han reveal would've been awesome.

In general the whole Rey-Ren mind battle thing is useless since it - once again - just shows that Rey is awesome, that she can resist a Sith apprentice without training. It's not like the next scene (her force persuading a Stormtrooper) isn't also showing her force strength. She could've escaped before the scene happens.

As you can guess - my other big gripe is Rey's strength. I don't mind her force skills (probably her legacy), her technician skills (she is a scavenger of old ships) or her fighting skills (though the "I need to unlock a blaster then I hit almost every shot" was stupid). Her piloting skills are my biggest gripe, especially since she states (after being questioned by Finn where/how she learned to fly like that) "I have no idea I could do that".

Maybe I just wanted more Poe in the movie. Have him accompany Finn. Sure the meeting of Finn & Poe with Rey & BB8 would've to be different (temporary split?). He would've been the ideal pilot to fly that old garbage (with Rey as his copilot, who knows a lot about old garbage). Han scene unchanged, let them visit Maz (Falcon is being tracked) and from then on it's just like the normal plot.

I honestly _hope_ that Luke is not Rey's father so I can avoid that impending "I am your father!" shit which is going to happen (looking at how much shit was rehashed) .
FuzzyJAM
Profile Joined July 2010
Scotland9300 Posts
December 23 2015 02:33 GMT
#2596
+ Show Spoiler +
Alright, start with positives:
Prequels basically don't exist
Aesthetically about as good as could be hoped for
Generally good acting
Humour was overboard but occasionally funny
Kylo Ren for the first half was great
Fight choreography was solid
Focus on emotion of combatants (well, at least compared to prequels)

But negatives:
OK, I'm sorry, but WHAT THE FUCK IS HAPPENING? What happened after Endor? Who are these First Order guys? Are they a legit government? How powerful are they? Where do they control? What's going on with the Republic? Where's their military? What is the Resistance? What's the relative strength of the factions and how do they relate to each other? Did the Republic actually sign a treaty with the First Order or something? Yeah, no doubt it's all explained in the books, great, but I went in to watch a film. And no, comparing it to the originals is totally off: in the originals, we knew there was an evil Empire that, after 1,000 generations of peace, had taken control of the entire galaxy and are looking to crush the extremely hard pressed Rebellion who are fighting against them with almost no resources or hope of success. Simple, to the point, all makes sense, gives you a scale of the battle, explains the stakes. Fantastic. In TFA, you have no idea what's being fought for, the relative strength of any party, or anything like that. Further, it's made even worse by being a sequel. There have already been three films (OK, six - whatever ), we already have a connection to the world. Is this supposed to be a reboot? No? Then continue the story, don't just utterly detach it. Plotwise, there is almost nothing to connect it to the originals. It just happens to be set in the same universe. With a couple of name changes it could be set 10,000 years further on. Oh, except for cameos from a couple characters and, of course, Han Solo...

Except Han Solo isn't Han Solo. By that I mean, he's the Han Solo Luke first meets in Mos Eisley. He's a recycled character, not a continuation. His entire character arc we loved him for has been erased. And it happened off screen. Because apparently that's really satisfying? But don't worry, he'll retake that character journey in two lines in the middle of the film, so that's OK then. WHAT?

Holy shit, how fucking cool is Kylo Ren! What an utter badass! Yeah, bitch be crazy! Stops blaster shots, can just switch people off! Ah, and he's got some character, OK, cool, cool, I'm digging this. And then and then and then. . .a fucking cleaner can duel him? WHAT? Absolutely destroys him as a character. I'm sorry, but all the excuses in the world (he was upset, he was toying with his meat, he was injured) don't make it remotely acceptable that the total badass we saw at the start of the film, the guy who can just look at people to make them unconscious (y'know, something nobody else can do), gets injured by a FUCKING STORMTROOPER in a lightsaber duel.

And then he fights Rey and actually somehow loses to someone who's never turned on a lightsaber before? Why did Luke "Last Great Hope" Skywalker take years to learn skills Rey just has? Now, sure, you could argue this is hinting that she's been trained in the past. She's Luke's daughter! Or maybe she's Force Jesus 2.0: The Even Chosener One. OK, fine theories, could well be. But the point is that the audience has entirely lost faith in the film at this point because of Finn's ability to even consider contesting Kylo Ren: we simply can't trust the director to represent any consistency in how fights work out, so for all we know Rey winning could simply be a stupid plot hole and betrayal of the originals. The mystery should be: Wow, how did Rey fight Kylo? What's her story? Was Kylo utterly devastated by the loss of his father and unable to use the Force? What's the explanation there? Instead, the mystery is: What the fuck just happened? We don't trust the reason behind this inexplicable occurrence to be plot consistent at all, and so we assume it's a fuck up. This is not a good response to engender in your audience to the key fight. This is not what a director should be trying to achieve.

Death Star 3? Really?

I'll stop there. There were plenty of other gripes (Phasma, monster dragging Finn around, hyperspace jump to a planet's atmosphere, etc.) but many were minor and I really don't want to focus on the negatives (though they tend to require more words to express). It's only been a day since I watched it, I'm still not sure how I feel. There were definite positives! There was a focus on likeable characters rather than fifteen billion lasers. There were actual sets. It felt real. These are good things. I actually had some fun, I laughed a couple times. But I just felt lost for much of the film. Hopefully it'll work better in a rewatch, and maybe VIII and IX will improve it too. Hopefully.
Did you ever say Yes to a single joy?
Sbrubbles
Profile Joined October 2010
Brazil5776 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-23 02:36:18
December 23 2015 02:35 GMT
#2597
I liked the new movie, I didn't really mind the angsty villain (I found Snoke disappointing, though not exactly sure why).

Biggest problem I felt, though, was that they missed so many opportunities for worldbuilding. In 7 we're barely told anything! Ok, there is a "Republic" supporting a "Resistance", but what does that even mean? Does the First Order and the Republic divide the galaxy? Are they at peace in some way? Or is the First Order some kind of Imperial rebel group?

Also, why does the assault to destroy the facility capable of destroying the whole galaxy only involve a measely dozen X-Wings, and why is the ground infiltration only the 3 main characters? Were they running out of budget or something?

Edit: I hear ya Fuzzy.
Bora Pain minha porra!
malcram
Profile Joined November 2010
2752 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-23 02:37:58
December 23 2015 02:37 GMT
#2598
Snoke could be Plagueis. The more I look at pictures, the more i see similarities. Maybe it's just me projecting lol... still quite plausible though
ZenithM
Profile Joined February 2011
France15952 Posts
Last Edited: 2015-12-23 02:47:53
December 23 2015 02:46 GMT
#2599
I seriously hope they don't decide to kill Luke (at all) in the trilogy. I know they discarded the Extended Universe, but Luke was always supposed to build this huge lasting Jedi legacy in my mind, and I was hoping this trilogy would show how the foundations of it came to be.

But if he's Rey's father, he's basically set to die soon, you wouldn't want those 2 powerhouses roaming around freely :D. Either he dies, or they become antagonists at some point.
Plansix
Profile Blog Joined April 2011
United States60190 Posts
December 23 2015 02:48 GMT
#2600
He could be old and not able to fight any more. Like they could no do the thing where the force makes you magic, ageless and able to take on armies while enjoying your golden years.
I have the Honor to be your Obedient Servant, P.6
TL+ Member
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