EPTI think people are playing up how well Finn did vs Kylo. He got destroyed really quickly by a guy that just took a bowcaster shot to the gut (a weapon they went out of their way to mention was really very powerful multiple times in the movie). I can understand people complaining that Rey seems like a force savant suddenly.
Star Wars Episode VII: The Force Awakens - Page 131
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CobaltBlu
United States919 Posts
I think people are playing up how well Finn did vs Kylo. He got destroyed really quickly by a guy that just took a bowcaster shot to the gut (a weapon they went out of their way to mention was really very powerful multiple times in the movie). I can understand people complaining that Rey seems like a force savant suddenly. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On December 23 2015 11:48 Plansix wrote: He could be old and not able to fight any more. Like they could no do the thing where the force makes you magic, ageless and able to take on armies while enjoying your golden years. Yes, I would be alright with that, this fits into my "Jedi legacy" fantasy. But I can't see how Luke wouldn't fight, honestly. The prequel trilogy is canon and has shown that older Jedi fare "pretty well" in combat. Luke has had all the time in the world to perfect his forms, Force manipulation and all that shit, so it would really surprise me if he went all (5,6)-Yoda on us. | ||
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Sbrubbles
Brazil5775 Posts
On December 23 2015 04:59 Manit0u wrote: Rey will turn to the dark side. Kylo will save the galaxy from her, thus making Han's dying gesture being the most important and pivotal moment in the entire trilogy. You heard it here first. Nah, that would be too clever of a twist. If they really wanted to do so, they would have made it so that Rey really hated Kylo (maybe she thinks he killed her parents or something), then they go into their big fight and she makes it clear she wants to kill him, earth splits yadayada. Then she goes to find Luke, but (twist) Snoke is waiting for her while Luke had actually slipped in and saved Kylo. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
And people forget that Luke taught himself to do a lot of stuff with the force even before he was trained by yoda. Lots of force users likely teach themselves, since Jedi had to come from some place. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On December 23 2015 11:54 Sbrubbles wrote: Nah, that would be too clever of a twist. If they really wanted to do so, they would have made it so that Rey really hated Kylo (maybe she thinks he killed her parents or something), then they go into their big fight and she makes it clear she wants to kill him, earth splits yadayada. Then she goes to find Luke, but (twist) Snoke is waiting for her while Luke had actually slipped in and saved Kylo. Her meeting with Luke can actually be the trigger for her falling into the dark side. To me it's likely that either she or Luke is at least tempted. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
For those who want to argue that (despite us being shown that Kylo has powers beyond any other force user) he was simply untrained and pretty bad with the force: OK, where's the satisfaction in that then (and also, how'd he kill all the other Jedi if he sucks)? Who's the focal point, who's the great villain, if Kylo is incompetent? Supreme Leader Hologram Who Does Nothing Except Agree To General Ginger's Plan? General Ginger himself? Captain "Is She Even Named Except On Her Toy Boxes" Phasma? Anyone want to argue these three are compelling villains? So either Kylo should be powerful and scary and he's not because they messed up his depiction, or they seriously made a Star Wars film without a powerful villain. "Yay, we defeated the not-very-good enemy!" isn't all that satisfying. And to go back to the Rey fight again: yes, there are of course explanations. But you're not seeing it within the context, which is that a cleaner has just managed to injure Kylo. This turns the audience from looking at in-universe explanations to thinking "Well maybe this film is just stupid." | ||
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shin_toss
Philippines2589 Posts
On December 23 2015 07:57 palexhur wrote: So stopping a laser in the air is not OP, ok then i have read and seen the wrong SW series, the other problem is Rey how are they going to make this character interesting? She is Jesus on steroids, they have to make Snoke a God. So because he stopped a laser he is OP? you are basing his overall power bec he stopped a laser lol. Probably all Jedis and Sith could do that OR a special trick that he learned but not yet discovered pre-ep 7 OR maybe just in Ep 7 the movie makers have thought about that. Mention another instance that he looked OP other than that scene? 1.) Killing an old man? nope 2.) Getting to Poe's mind who is a normal guy? nope 3.) Blocking the blaster shots? that is normal for anyone who uses lightsabers.. nope 4.) Got told by Gen. Hux,.. nope 5.) Resisted by Rey when he tried reading her mind.. totally not OP. also , Basically moving a solid object which has mass is probably even harder. He just looked intimidating because of the mask and made it a LOT less of that because his face just don't quite match the character. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 23 2015 11:54 ZenithM wrote: Yes, I would be alright with that, this fits into my "Jedi legacy" fantasy. But I can't see how Luke wouldn't fight, honestly. The prequel trilogy is canon and has shown that older Jedi fare "pretty well" in combat. Luke has had all the time in the world to perfect his forms, Force manipulation and all that shit, so it would really surprise me if he went all (5,6)-Yoda on us. I am sure he will hold his own, that is part of the fun. But there will be jokes "You know, there was a reason I was hiding on that island. I'm to old to be getting shot at." But he won't go all Jedi Jesus on us. TFA seems. to be focused on taking the force powers and general super hero nature of the Jedi down a couple pegs. | ||
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Chewbacca.
United States3634 Posts
On December 23 2015 11:54 ZenithM wrote: Yes, I would be alright with that, this fits into my "Jedi legacy" fantasy. But I can't see how Luke wouldn't fight, honestly. The prequel trilogy is canon and has shown that older Jedi fare "pretty well" in combat. Luke has had all the time in the world to perfect his forms, Force manipulation and all that shit, so it would really surprise me if he went all (5,6)-Yoda on us. All the time in the world with no guidance and nobody to train with though. Luke had very little actual training in the Force, he likely doesn't even have a clue of half of what he could do. Unless of course Yoda, Obi, and Qui-gon were training him.. | ||
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On December 23 2015 12:00 shin_toss wrote: + Show Spoiler + So because he stopped a laser he is OP? you are basing his overall power bec he stopped a laser lol. Probably all Jedis and Sith could do that OR a special trick that he learned but not yet discovered pre-ep 7 OR maybe just in Ep 7 the movie makers have thought about that. Mention another instance that he looked OP other than that scene? 1.) Killing an old man? nope 2.) Getting to Poe's mind who is a normal guy? nope 3.) Blocking the blaster shots? that is normal for anyone who uses lightsabers.. nope 4.) Got told by Gen. Hux,.. nope 5.) Resisted by Rey when he tried reading her mind.. totally not OP. also , Basically moving a solid object which has mass is probably even harder. He just looked intimidating because of the mask and made it a LOT less of that because his face just don't quite match the character. + Show Spoiler + (a) He has three powers no other character has shown: magical unconsciousness, mind rape, and projectile stopping. Why does he have these three powers that no one else has if he's supposed to suck? And how'd he annihilate the Jedi Order if he's not strong? (b) See my recent post on why, if he can get challenged by a sanitation officer when injured 'cause he kind of isn't very strong, that makes the films unsatisfying. You need a villain you can fear in Star Wars, not someone who kind of sucks. Are we allowed to post spoilers outside spoiler tags now, btw? What's TL's official position? | ||
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
Kylo wasn't only wounded, he also was in a very bad state of mind after just killing his own father. The whole point of him is: VERY talented with the force, but also VERY unstable mind. I also don't see why being strong with the force automatically should mean you are the most badass lightsaber fighter ever tbh, that's kinda two different things. Srsly all these weird nitpicks about the last fight are so weird to me, did we watch the same movie? | ||
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Chewbacca.
United States3634 Posts
On December 23 2015 12:09 FuzzyJAM wrote: + Show Spoiler + (a) He has three powers no other character has shown: magical unconsciousness, mind rape, and projectile stopping. Why does he have these three powers that no one else has if he's supposed to suck? And how'd he annihilate the Jedi Order if he's not strong? (b) See my recent post on why, if he can get challenged by a sanitation officer when injured 'cause he kind of isn't very strong, that makes the films unsatisfying. You need a villain you can fear in Star Wars, not someone who kind of sucks. Are we allowed to post spoilers outside spoiler tags now, btw? What's TL's official position? We've seen Jedi controlling the minds of others...pretty much the same thing as putting someone to sleep, just that wasn't their goal. "Mind Raping" has been shown used by Jedi quite a bit...even against stronger willed people -- See interrogation of Cad Bane. We've seen people stop projectiles before, not sure why lasers would be any harder except that you'd need decent reactions. | ||
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Alpino
Brazil4390 Posts
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On December 23 2015 12:01 Plansix wrote: I am sure he will hold his own, that is part of the fun. But there will be jokes "You know, there was a reason I was hiding on that island. I'm to old to be getting shot at." But he won't go all Jedi Jesus on us. TFA seems. to be focused on taking the force powers and general super hero nature of the Jedi down a couple pegs. We'll see. We didn't actually see any Jedi or Sith fight yet. Kylo is still raw, to say the least, and Rey is untrained. But I also feel as you do about the fighting in future movies. We probably won't see the somersault-backflip galore of the prequels. This isn't canon anymore, so that's ok: + Show Spoiler + It was so cool though. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On December 23 2015 12:18 The_Red_Viper wrote: He didn't "get challenged" by Fin all that much. He toyed with him, was overconfident and after getting hit he simply won the fight instantly. Fin might be "sanitation officer", but he still was trained in combat since a kid because he was part of the stormtroopers. Kylo wasn't only wounded, he also was in a very bad state of mind after just killing his own father. The whole point of him is: VERY talented with the force, but also VERY unstable mind. I also don't see why being strong with the force automatically should mean you are the most badass lightsaber fighter ever tbh, that's kinda two different things. Srsly all these weird nitpicks about the last fight are so weird to me, did we watch the same movie? It's because the prequels, clean wars and EU stuff elevated Jedi to super heroes, rather then normal people with spiritual powers and tricks. So this every toned down version of a force user seems like he is "weak" by comparison. But I agree the Ren was scary to almost anyone who crossed his path, even after being shot in the side. Rey barely beat him and she was a very capable fighter. Edit: zenith, that is exactly what I'm talking about. The made Jedi into super heroes and shockingly, that got really boring because everyone else is Star Wars is normal. I got so tired of them trying to figure out new ways to make Jedi interesting. This one fights with two sabers, this one has weird force powers and fights with a bladed disk. This one uses a exploding yoyo. Thank god they got back to basics. | ||
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ZenithM
France15952 Posts
On December 23 2015 12:09 Chewbacca. wrote: All the time in the world with no guidance and nobody to train with though. Luke had very little actual training in the Force, he likely doesn't even have a clue of half of what he could do. Unless of course Yoda, Obi, and Qui-gon were training him.. He probably won't be the duelist we've seen in the past (because as you said, no sparring partner) but he could at least train against blaster shots, and also strengthen his telekinetic powers. | ||
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SigmaoctanusIV
United States3313 Posts
My biggest complaint with the movie which I liked a lot was how they handled Poe coming back after the crash in Jakku. He didn't go looking for Finn or BB-8? whatever it's a minor complaint I am just excited that episode 8 we will see how great Mark Hamill is returning as Luke. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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The_Red_Viper
19533 Posts
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FuzzyJAM
Scotland9300 Posts
On December 23 2015 12:18 The_Red_Viper wrote: + Show Spoiler + He didn't "get challenged" by Fin all that much. He toyed with him, was overconfident and after getting hit he simply won the fight instantly. Fin might be "sanitation officer", but he still was trained in combat since a kid because he was part of the stormtroopers. Kylo wasn't only wounded, he also was in a very bad state of mind after just killing his own father. The whole point of him is: VERY talented with the force, but also VERY unstable mind. I also don't see why being strong with the force automatically should mean you are the most badass lightsaber fighter ever tbh, that's kinda two different things. Srsly all these weird nitpicks about the last fight are so weird to me, did we watch the same movie? + Show Spoiler + It's not a weird nitpick. I explained why it mattered. How strong Kylo is, how unlikely it is that an untrained sensitive could fight him, matters hugely. It decides whether we look for in-universe explanations for the Rey fight (if his power is internally consistent) or outside-universe explanations (if it's not) - basically, are we scratching our heads because we want to figure out the mystery deliberately set before us, or are we wondering why the filmmakers fucked up. It's clear that Kylo's depiction isn't consistent given that people have offered different explanations, with multiple people saying he's not supposed to be powerful at all. On December 23 2015 12:21 Chewbacca. wrote: + Show Spoiler + We've seen Jedi controlling the minds of others...pretty much the same thing as putting someone to sleep, just that wasn't their goal. "Mind Raping" has been shown used by Jedi quite a bit...even against stronger willed people -- See interrogation of Cad Bane. We've seen people stop projectiles before, not sure why lasers would be any harder except that you'd need decent reactions + Show Spoiler + If unconsciousness is the same thing, why'd no one ever do it? "Mind raping" is never shown in the films (I have no idea on EU): certainly, it was beyond Darth Vader's powers, despite how useful it'd have been for him to learn. And stopping a blaster shot seems way beyond other stuff to me - otherwise, why's it cool? Now, these unusual powers can indeed be explained away even if Kylo isn't supposed to be very powerful, but I'm saying Kylo's depiction is wonky, not that it couldn't possibly be explained by reading some books or coming up with your own ideas. On December 23 2015 12:31 Plansix wrote: + Show Spoiler + It's because the prequels, clean wars and EU stuff elevated Jedi to super heroes, rather then normal people with spiritual powers and tricks. So this every toned down version of a force user seems like he is "weak" by comparison. But I agree the Ren was scary to almost anyone who crossed his path, even after being shot in the side. Rey barely beat him and she was a very capable fighter. Edit: zenith, that is exactly what I'm talking about. The made Jedi into super heroes and shockingly, that got really boring because everyone else is Star Wars is normal. I got so tired of them trying to figure out new ways to make Jedi interesting. This one fights with two sabers, this one has weird force powers and fights with a bladed disk. This one uses a exploding yoyo. Thank god they got back to basics. + Show Spoiler + Like it or not (I'm very much a not) the prequels do exist and are canon. Yeah, I think the depiction of the Jedi in the prequels sucks, but it's very jarring at the least if they're calling the prequels canon but then retconning Jedi power. | ||
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