|
SPOILER WARNING If you only watch the show, this thread will spoil you of future events in HBO's Game of Thrones. Thread contains discussion of all books of the series A Song of Ice and FireClick Here for the spoiler-free thread. |
On August 29 2011 12:19 Fzero wrote:
There's just no way for GRRM to wrap up the series. I've had this series as my favorite book series for about 10 years, but I lost some major faith after Book 5. There are too many questions and not enough answers. If he tries to answer everything in 2 books, the story is just going to be awful. If he expands further, then AFFC and ADwD will stand out even more than they already do in comparison to the first 3.
yes, I believe his mistake was expanding the world with an influx of characters in AFFC and ADWD. Now, he feels responsible for fleshing out each and every one of their stories. Well, he could just kill them off. Point is, he had a solid story with a strong cast by the end of ASOS and he should have stuck with it.
|
SO it kind of sucks having to wait a decade for this story to pan out. All in all a really good read. Although the tyrion chapters when from my favorite to my least favorite.
I enjoyed the jon snow chapters the most until the end.+ Show Spoiler + Although I seriously doubt he is dead. Some earlier in the thread were saying he was AA, or that he would live on in his wolf. I think its more likely Melissandre just revives him, someone said that is a little fairytaleish, but I dont think so given that Catelyn Stark is some half rotted zombie walking around the riverlands.. Dondarrion was a man who was revived by a red priest, so I dont see why john wont be either.
Other than that, none of the storylines really wrapped themselves up, and it stagnated the book a bit to the point where some chapters I was like "oh come on just end".
What really suprised me was that their was literally nothing about the White walkers, aside from saving the wildlings. But literally nothing about their storyline happened, so I kind of wonder if GRRM has any idea how it should play out without overshadowing the rest of the events.
Still really enjoyed it though, and I hope he writes the next one in less than 3 years
edit. added spoilers to be safe
|
On August 30 2011 13:19 Darpa wrote:SO it kind of sucks having to wait a decade for this story to pan out. All in all a really good read. Although the tyrion chapters when from my favorite to my least favorite. I enjoyed the jon snow chapters the most until the end. + Show Spoiler + Although I seriously doubt he is dead. Some earlier in the thread were saying he was AA, or that he would live on in his wolf. I think its more likely Melissandre just revives him, someone said that is a little fairytaleish, but I dont think so given that Catelyn Stark is some half rotted zombie walking around the riverlands.. Dondarrion was a man who was revived by a red priest, so I dont see why john wont be either.
Other than that, none of the storylines really wrapped themselves up, and it stagnated the book a bit to the point where some chapters I was like "oh come on just end".
What really suprised me was that their was literally nothing about the White walkers, aside from saving the wildlings. But literally nothing about their storyline happened, so I kind of wonder if GRRM has any idea how it should play out without overshadowing the rest of the events.
Still really enjoyed it though, and I hope he writes the next one in less than 3 years edit. added spoilers to be safe
+ Show Spoiler +
The prologue of the book is about a skinchanger who dies and then goes into one of his wolves. That wasn't conicidental... he's definitely going into Ghost.
Mellisandre said she saw a vision of a man turn into a wolf and then back. That practically sets it in stone. . . he's coming back somehow.
But I think he's got a master plan. Some of the things in DANCE have been written 10 years ago. I'm pretty sure he's got all the major plotpoints written down somehwere, and he's been following them.
Jon was meant to die (or whatever this is) for a long time. So I'm not too worried about him writing himself into a corner and then being like 'well fuck, now what?'
What I really want to know is...
a lot of the complaints about books 4 and 5 are about how so little happens. They have giant chunks of BORING. 80%+ of all 'traveling' in those books was just not interesting at all. Meanwhile, Arya is traveling in all of books 2 and 3 but she stays awesome.
So my questoin is WHY? Why is he doing this?
Has he ever addressed this? It's been 5 years since AFfC, 5 years of complaints about how Brienne did next to nothing..
he's had to have responded, right? :/
|
Ok guys!! finally i think i have guessed sth! (the felling you always get in the books is that you can never,ever guess wtf is going to happen) .. but i think i got one 
i have only read the fisrt couple of chapters in dance of dragon so..will spoill that
+ Show Spoiler +The Arrengement between the martell´s and targaryens was probably that they would make the martell kid to daenerys, this would ensure dornes help in the war.. ofcourse the targaryens would just give up kingship to the Martell line.. but...it happens LOL, that Dorne law says that fisrtborn women can be heirs too..(instead of only man..) so when any Martell king has a firstborn daugther they just marry her to a Targaryen and return kingship =)
|
On August 28 2011 17:18 Drowsy wrote:
So I'm not finished with all the books yet, but I really liked Stannis. He's like the characters that Clint Eastwood plays in movies, has an unbending sense of right and wrong, loyal, honorable, but also harsh and gritty. The dude ate rats during the siege of storm's end. It seems like he's willing to suffer and bleed just like the common folk, and his reliance on Davos as a loyal friend who will offer him legitimate counsel instead of just blowing smoke up his ass like the highborn lords seems admirable. He's the only one willing to defend the wall. I remember in the show and the first book they suggest he would make a bad king because good soldiers don't always make good kings, but he just seems like an overall BAMF who gets shit done and wouldn't be off whoring and drinking like Robert or living in wretched excess and hubris like Renly. He's the only one who seems to have any sort of humility. Stannis seems like the "lawful neutral" type. Seems like he would be a stern "tough but fair" king. It's a shame things don't turn out a bit better in book 2 for Stannis. I don't really care about him killing Renly. Renly was a bitchface anyway.
I don't see what's so awful about Melisandre and the Lord of the Light either...
I wonder what the casting is going to be for Davos/Melisandre/Stannis
Melissandre :Carice van Houten
Stannis: Stephen Dillane
Davos: Lian Cunningham
|
On September 01 2011 22:13 Carras wrote:Ok guys!! finally i think i have guessed sth! (the felling you always get in the books is that you can never,ever guess wtf is going to happen) .. but i think i got one i have only read the fisrt couple of chapters in dance of dragon so..will spoill that + Show Spoiler +The Arrengement between the martell´s and targaryens was probably that they would make the martell kid to daenerys, this would ensure dornes help in the war.. ofcourse the targaryens would just give up kingship to the Martell line.. but...it happens LOL, that Dorne law says that fisrtborn women can be heirs too..(instead of only man..) so when any Martell king has a firstborn daugther they just marry her to a Targaryen and return kingship =)
+ Show Spoiler +The arrangement between the Martells and the last kingsguard Knight who fled with Danaerys and Viserys was that Arianne should marry Viserys. Doran now wants Quentyn to marry Daenerys, but this was not a part of the arrangement. All of this was revealed at the end of a Feast for Crows. And firstborn women can be heirs in Dorne, but this does not transfer to the Iron Throne, even if Arianne wanted it to with Myrcella. The rest of the realm would not accept it.
|
Willem Darry wasn't a knight of the kingsguard, just a Targyrean loyalist
|
Just finished ADWD, here are my thoughts:
1. Daenerys is an idiot. somehow she managed to turn from someone who was a pretty damn capable and good leader to a completely ineffectual ruler that refuses to let anyone get hurt, even for the greater good. at least she started to see how much of an idiot she was by the end.
2. Jon is also an idiot, albeit not quite as much of one. the only thing unsurprising about his stabbing was that it didn't happen sooner. while I can see the logic in, and agree with using the wildlings, even HE knew that trying to save the ones at hardhome was futile would only serve to lose valuable men, and by blatantly breaking his oath the end, that was just pointless and silly. how could he have NOT seen the betrayal coming after that? it's also kind of baffling because he had just refused to that very same thing when stannis offered it to him earlier. also he's totally not dead.
3. tyrion is a badass and I want to see more of him.
4. arya is annoying.
5. littlegfinger is a boss. I kind of want him to succeed.
6. stannis is almost certainly not dead. remember davos dying in AFFC? yeah this is almost the exact same thing.
7. speaking of, I want to see more davos.
8. I also want to see sam become a maester.
9. jaime is neat.
10. barristan is neater.
11. more for AFFC but I wish the hound wasn't dead so he could kill frankenstein-gregor.
12. victarion was also neat, I wanna read more about him.
that's about it. but would people mind filling me in on the evidence for jon being the son of rheagor/lyanna? I haven't gotten that impression at all, especially given how much conflicted evidence there is.
|
Sandor is not dead. But might not show up in the other books.
|
On September 02 2011 06:20 Doko wrote:
Sandor is not dead. But might not show up in the other books.
I would be very suprised if Sandor would return in the story. He seems to have "died" and begun a new life in that weird village. It would be kind of silly to write him back and just go back to being the old Sandor. Hell i even thought it was weird that he just overnight went from this rage filled guy to essentially a priest.
Kind of out of the blue. Again, would probably be happier if he just died rather then get a miracle change of heart. Didn't feel in character.
12. victarion was also neat, I wanna read more about him
Victarion actually went from insanely boring AFFC chapters to my favorite chapters from ADWD.
|
On September 02 2011 06:17 rogueindustrialist wrote:
Just finished ADWD, here are my thoughts:
that's about it. but would people mind filling me in on the evidence for jon being the son of rheagor/lyanna? I haven't gotten that impression at all, especially given how much conflicted evidence there is.
There is no conflicting information. Rhaegar took Lyanna to Dorne. Ned Stark and a group of his men went on a mission to rescue Lyanna while Robert was fighting in the riverlands. They kill 3 of the Whitecloaks and the only thing Ned ever mentions about Lyanna is the promise he made to her on her "bed of blood". A "bed of blood" is a birthing bed. Wylla (or whatever the wet nurses name is, the one that we learned more about in the 4th book who was a wet nurse for Jon and his "milk brother"
There are plenty other tidbits, but I'm pretty sure beyond any level of doubt that Jon is the son of Rhaegar.
|
On September 02 2011 06:17 rogueindustrialist wrote:
Just finished ADWD, here are my thoughts:
1. Daenerys is an idiot. somehow she managed to turn from someone who was a pretty damn capable and good leader to a completely ineffectual ruler that refuses to let anyone get hurt, even for the greater good. at least she started to see how much of an idiot she was by the end.
2. Jon is also an idiot, albeit not quite as much of one. the only thing unsurprising about his stabbing was that it didn't happen sooner. while I can see the logic in, and agree with using the wildlings, even HE knew that trying to save the ones at hardhome was futile would only serve to lose valuable men, and by blatantly breaking his oath the end, that was just pointless and silly. how could he have NOT seen the betrayal coming after that? it's also kind of baffling because he had just refused to that very same thing when stannis offered it to him earlier. also he's totally not dead.
3. tyrion is a badass and I want to see more of him.
4. arya is annoying.
5. littlegfinger is a boss. I kind of want him to succeed.
6. stannis is almost certainly not dead. remember davos dying in AFFC? yeah this is almost the exact same thing.
7. speaking of, I want to see more davos.
8. I also want to see sam become a maester.
9. jaime is neat.
10. barristan is neater.
11. more for AFFC but I wish the hound wasn't dead so he could kill frankenstein-gregor.
12. victarion was also neat, I wanna read more about him.
that's about it. but would people mind filling me in on the evidence for jon being the son of rheagor/lyanna? I haven't gotten that impression at all, especially given how much conflicted evidence there is.
You mixed up 3. and 4.
The whole Tyrion story arc in this book is just ridiculous, having him dress like a clown and growing fond of a dwarf girl, while piggy riding...it completely opposite of his chapters in previous books.
Arya is cool. I hope she kills them all, Dany and Azhor Azhai and everyone else, because god knows Martin won't be able to do anything better with all of his characters stuck in the boring east.
|
On September 02 2011 06:33 N3rV[Green] wrote:
There is no conflicting information. Rhaegar took Lyanna to Dorne. Ned Stark and a group of his men went on a mission to rescue Lyanna while Robert was fighting in the riverlands. They kill 3 of the Whitecloaks and the only thing Ned ever mentions about Lyanna is the promise he made to her on her "bed of blood". A "bed of blood" is a birthing bed. Wylla (or whatever the wet nurses name is, the one that we learned more about in the 4th book who was a wet nurse for Jon and his "milk brother"
There are plenty other tidbits, but I'm pretty sure beyond any level of doubt that Jon is the son of Rhaegar.
there was a whole thing that davos was told about how Ned had an affair with a fishermans daughter, and the rumor that the dane lady (the one that killed herself that selmy loved) was the mom.
On September 02 2011 06:33 Odoakar wrote:You mixed up 3. and 4. The whole Tyrion story arc in this book is just ridiculous, having him dress like a clown and growing fond of a dwarf girl, while piggy riding...it completely opposite of his chapters in previous books. Arya is cool. I hope she kills them all, Dany and Azhor Azhai and everyone else, because god knows Martin won't be able to do anything better with all of his characters stuck in the boring east.
hahaha. no. Tyrion is one of the best characters I have read in anything in a long time. and yeah, his chapters here were the complete opposite because his situation was the complete opposite. he can't afford to keep treating people like tools since he doesn't have his wealth or status to protect him anymore.
and arya is super irritating. throughout all 5 books she only ever talked about how badass and grown up she is to the point where it's abundantly clear that that's not the case. she refuses to learn any of the important lessons that she's been taught and is all around this series equivalent of the little kid who's convinced that he's a ninja master because he went to taekwando class a few times.
|
On September 02 2011 06:43 rogueindustrialist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 06:33 N3rV[Green] wrote:
There is no conflicting information. Rhaegar took Lyanna to Dorne. Ned Stark and a group of his men went on a mission to rescue Lyanna while Robert was fighting in the riverlands. They kill 3 of the Whitecloaks and the only thing Ned ever mentions about Lyanna is the promise he made to her on her "bed of blood". A "bed of blood" is a birthing bed. Wylla (or whatever the wet nurses name is, the one that we learned more about in the 4th book who was a wet nurse for Jon and his "milk brother"
There are plenty other tidbits, but I'm pretty sure beyond any level of doubt that Jon is the son of Rhaegar.
there was a whole thing that davos was told about how Ned had an affair with a fishermans daughter, and the rumor that the dane lady (the one that killed herself that selmy loved) was the mom.
The rumor about the Dayne lady was just gossip, and pretty much proven to be untrue since she apparently killed herself because Eddard could not be with her. The fisherman's daughter story could be true but it doesn't seem likely based on what we know about Eddard. The evidence that suggests Jon is Lyanna's son is the flashbacks Eddard has about Lyanna making him promise something. There's not many other things she would need him to promise about while she was dying. Unless it was to bury her back north. But that wouldn't have justified the flashbacks imo.
|
On September 02 2011 06:43 rogueindustrialist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 06:33 N3rV[Green] wrote:
There is no conflicting information. Rhaegar took Lyanna to Dorne. Ned Stark and a group of his men went on a mission to rescue Lyanna while Robert was fighting in the riverlands. They kill 3 of the Whitecloaks and the only thing Ned ever mentions about Lyanna is the promise he made to her on her "bed of blood". A "bed of blood" is a birthing bed. Wylla (or whatever the wet nurses name is, the one that we learned more about in the 4th book who was a wet nurse for Jon and his "milk brother"
There are plenty other tidbits, but I'm pretty sure beyond any level of doubt that Jon is the son of Rhaegar.
there was a whole thing that davos was told about how Ned had an affair with a fishermans daughter, and the rumor that the dane lady (the one that killed herself that selmy loved) was the mom. Show nested quote +On September 02 2011 06:33 Odoakar wrote:You mixed up 3. and 4. The whole Tyrion story arc in this book is just ridiculous, having him dress like a clown and growing fond of a dwarf girl, while piggy riding...it completely opposite of his chapters in previous books. Arya is cool. I hope she kills them all, Dany and Azhor Azhai and everyone else, because god knows Martin won't be able to do anything better with all of his characters stuck in the boring east. hahaha. no. Tyrion is one of the best characters I have read in anything in a long time. and yeah, his chapters here were the complete opposite because his situation was the complete opposite. he can't afford to keep treating people like tools since he doesn't have his wealth or status to protect him anymore. and arya is super irritating. throughout all 5 books she only ever talked about how badass and grown up she is to the point where it's abundantly clear that that's not the case. she refuses to learn any of the important lessons that she's been taught and is all around this series equivalent of the little kid who's convinced that he's a ninja master because he went to taekwando class a few times.
Ashara Dayne (the women a lot of people think Ned hooked up with at Harrenhal) supposedly had a baby that was a stillborn. This is one of the reasons people believe she "commited suicide"
Others think the baby wasn't still born, and is Neds bastard child by Ashara. (Jon)
And even more crazy people somehow think that she was pregnant by Rhaegar, and that Jon is Ashara+Rhaegars son and the baby that died was actually Ned's child or something like that,
The common theory is that Ned's bastard by her was stillborn, so he took Jon (R+L) and simply said he was the bastard and no one ever knew
http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/forum/56-a-dance-with-dragons/
so many crazy theories on this site, but they also pick up on a lot of things you completely miss as a reader
|
This is how i think the entire book is going to play out.
+ Show Spoiler +
1. Jon was betrayed by the others in the Night's Watch, but Melisandre revives him somwhoew (probably with the power of Rh'Llor), and Jon comes back to life, but not bonded to the vows of the black.
2. The last greenseer is trying to control the entire world. Since he is old and feeble, he is unable to leave the woods, and has no influence anywhere. By using Bran, however, he is able to let his power reach out further, and probably ultimately subdue the Starks. In ADWD, when Victarion sails past the Demon Isles, one of the people have a vision of the world in flames with a man with many arms presiding over it.
3. Catelyn Stark is killed. Brienne took Jaime to Catelyn, though Brienne believes that Jaime is innocent. She helps Jaime escape from Catelyn, and Catelyn dies in the process. Bran will see this through a godtree, and then swear vengeance upon the Lannisters and Brienne.
4. Meanwhile, Tyrion somehow manages to find Daenerys, and the join forces. Daenerys manages to tame her dragons, and they depart for Westeros. They ultimately arrive where they find Prince Aegon. Aegon manages to tame another dragon, but Daenerys doesnt marry him. He leaves her, and Bran somehow manages to recruit him to the Greenseers side.
5. The greenseer is trying to make The Others join his side, and is having a little bit of success, as shown through ColdHands.
6. Theon Greyjoy escapes and finds Jon's dead body, and witnesses Melisandre bringing him back to life. Theon then remembers who he is and accepts it, and swears loyalty to Melisandre and John.
Those are just my 2 cents on it. ill probably add more later as i think about it
|
On September 02 2011 06:17 rogueindustrialist wrote:
Just finished ADWD, here are my thoughts:
1. Daenerys is an idiot. somehow she managed to turn from someone who was a pretty damn capable and good leader to a completely ineffectual ruler that refuses to let anyone get hurt, even for the greater good. at least she started to see how much of an idiot she was by the end.
2. Jon is also an idiot, albeit not quite as much of one. the only thing unsurprising about his stabbing was that it didn't happen sooner. while I can see the logic in, and agree with using the wildlings, even HE knew that trying to save the ones at hardhome was futile would only serve to lose valuable men, and by blatantly breaking his oath the end, that was just pointless and silly. how could he have NOT seen the betrayal coming after that? it's also kind of baffling because he had just refused to that very same thing when stannis offered it to him earlier. also he's totally not dead.
3. tyrion is a badass and I want to see more of him.
4. arya is annoying.
5. littlegfinger is a boss. I kind of want him to succeed.
6. stannis is almost certainly not dead. remember davos dying in AFFC? yeah this is almost the exact same thing.
7. speaking of, I want to see more davos.
8. I also want to see sam become a maester.
9. jaime is neat.
10. barristan is neater.
11. more for AFFC but I wish the hound wasn't dead so he could kill frankenstein-gregor.
12. victarion was also neat, I wanna read more about him.
that's about it. but would people mind filling me in on the evidence for jon being the son of rheagor/lyanna? I haven't gotten that impression at all, especially given how much conflicted evidence there is.
I pretty much spent the entire ADWD book waiting for an update on what littlefinger was doing, by far my favorite charater
|
On August 30 2011 19:32 Crazyeyes wrote:
So I'm not too worried about him writing himself into a corner and then being like 'well fuck, now what?'
When Robert Jordan died, he was just starting to write what he said was the final book of the Wheel of Time. It's taking Brandon Sanderson 3000 hardcover pages to finish that "final book" because of how many characters there were and convoluted/unresolved plot lines. If Robert Jordan can write himself into a corner like that, it can happen to GRRM too. I'd give even money that ASoIaF exceeds 7 books.
|
and arya is super irritating. throughout all 5 books she only ever talked about how badass and grown up she is to the point where it's abundantly clear that that's not the case. she refuses to learn any of the important lessons that she's been taught and is all around this series equivalent of the little kid who's convinced that he's a ninja master because he went to taekwando class a few times.
aDwD... just in case
+ Show Spoiler +How did you get any of this at all? Ever? I never got the impression that she feels awesome at all. Yes, there were a few times where she felt a bit cocky (something along the lines of "I bet I can beat you in swords, though" ... but that wasn't in aDwD), but right now I never felt like she was thinking she's all super ninja badass. I think her fans who read the books may feel this way, though. She better get there, at least. :D Tyrion is a total badass and is awesome as hell, but the second half of his story arc in this book was boring as shit. He was still witty and funny and clever and just generally being Tyrion, but his chapters and his situation wans't interesting, or at lest not written interestingly. As soon as Mormont comes along everything goes downhill. But yeah, whatever floats your boat I guess. As for Rhagar and Lyanna being his parents... http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.htmlIt practically can't be refuted. Oo
|
On September 02 2011 08:36 Crazyeyes wrote:Show nested quote +
and arya is super irritating. throughout all 5 books she only ever talked about how badass and grown up she is to the point where it's abundantly clear that that's not the case. she refuses to learn any of the important lessons that she's been taught and is all around this series equivalent of the little kid who's convinced that he's a ninja master because he went to taekwando class a few times.
aDwD... just in case + Show Spoiler +How did you get any of this at all? Ever? I never got the impression that she feels awesome at all. Yes, there were a few times where she felt a bit cocky (something along the lines of "I bet I can beat you in swords, though" ... but that wasn't in aDwD), but right now I never felt like she was thinking she's all super ninja badass. I think her fans who read the books may feel this way, though. She better get there, at least. :D Tyrion is a total badass and is awesome as hell, but the second half of his story arc in this book was boring as shit. He was still witty and funny and clever and just generally being Tyrion, but his chapters and his situation wans't interesting, or at lest not written interestingly. As soon as Mormont comes along everything goes downhill. But yeah, whatever floats your boat I guess. As for Rhagar and Lyanna being his parents... http://towerofthehand.com/essays/chrisholden/jon_snows_parents.htmlIt practically can't be refuted. Oo
even in her last chapter in ADWD she tells the plague priest how she could kill him if she wanted. when she has the one faceless man working for her in harrenhall she talks about seeing herself as death incarnate, able to kill with a mere word and how she misses all that power when it's gone. she's always talking about if she had needle they would all be sorry. she talks about how the guards that are guarding her first assassination target are "slow and stupid and [she] can kill them too." hell basically the entirety of her training at the house of black and white is them trying to make her humble, and the last chapter in ADWD is nothing but her being super cocky.
and as for tyrion second half of the story, yeah, it did get kind of tiresome having him be in mortal peril after mortal peril, but it's still interesting because 1. tyrion is a boss, and 2. he's basically been given the opportunity to raise himself up from nothing and do what he will with his life. he managed to go from literally having everything to nothing to a crossroads where he can now choose his own destiny using nothing but his wits. I actually found the first part, where he was traveling with aegon, way more boring than the second part with jorah. in fact, the second part reminded me of his travels with bronn which were also awesome as hell.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
