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Discussing the show and past episodes is fine. Do not put things that have happened in the TV series in spoilers. However, don't spoil things from the books that may happen in future episodes. Put book spoilers in spoiler tags with a CLEAR WARNING that it is from the book. |
The latest episode was surprisingly good, but it's just a filler. It doesn't make up for the fact that the main plot is screwed up. Why didn't the governor send in an armored truck to finish them in the first attack? I facepalmed so hard when they sent in that truck and released the zombies. Tactically, that might make sense if he wanted to kill them all to save ammo, but then there's the issue of confirming whether they're dead or not. It just seemed like a stupid / unsubtle way to show how sadistic the governor is.
The armored truck they took from the infantry unit earlier in the season could have just ended everything, or at least forced them all into the jail, and he wouldn't have had to lose any of his men. Also, when that attack failed, why not send a few men back with radios to scout the area to make sure rick's people don't do another counter attack? They've broken into woodbury before, why take the risk?
Also, Andrea. She needs to go.
This series started going downhill when it became more about people vs. people and strayed from the original premise of the show.
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I don't usually like interlude episodes after a major cliffhanger (was expecting it to go straight into the Woodbury raid), but this one was fantastic on so many different levels. Rick discovering Morgan was essential to his character development. He went from the good guy Sheriff wanting whats best for everyone, then Lori's death quickly had him diminishing into a subhuman who literally could not make any decisions, let alone supervise a group. His mind was on lock-down, almost like an exaggerated case of PTSD x10 because they are living in this zombie apocalyptic world. Can only imagine the amount of uncontrollable feelings one would have after a situation like this.
We see his leadership has been called into question by everyone at the prison, and whether he is fit enough to continue to perform the tasks at hand, i.e killing the governor and taking over the town in the most 'civil' way possible for the livelihood of all, including the townsfolk. They have a perfect situation is arms reach but without a strong-headed captain, it will all go to shit and they would lose everything they worked so hard to formulate as a pack. However, in a blink of an eye, Rick's morality finally surfaced again. What happened to Morgan, and all the guilt he felt for abandoning him, put everything into perspective for Rick. If this episode and interaction had not happened, it wouldn't make sense for his character to all of the sudden be high-and-mighty again. It triggered him to realize that life is worth fighting for.
I could go on and on about all the different and idiosyncratic details of the last episode. It was just that interesting to me. For anyone to say it wasn't good or boring blows my mindhole. Maybe I look into things too much but I definitely think there was a lot of philosophical value to having this episode before they go back to Woodbury. The calm before the storm...
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On March 06 2013 12:40 EpiK wrote:
The latest episode was surprisingly good, but it's just a filler. It doesn't make up for the fact that the main plot is screwed up. Why didn't the governor send in an armored truck to finish them in the first attack? I facepalmed so hard when they sent in that truck and released the zombies. Tactically, that might make sense if he wanted to kill them all to save ammo, but then there's the issue of confirming whether they're dead or not. It just seemed like a stupid / unsubtle way to show how sadistic the governor is.
The armored truck they took from the infantry unit earlier in the season could have just ended everything, or at least forced them all into the jail, and he wouldn't have had to lose any of his men. Also, when that attack failed, why not send a few men back with radios to scout the area to make sure rick's people don't do another counter attack? They've broken into woodbury before, why take the risk?
Also, Andrea. She needs to go.
This series started going downhill when it became more about people vs. people and strayed from the original premise of the show.
Acquiring more weapons to improve your defenses when an attack by a group of people larger and more armed than you is imminent as well as significant character development is not filler. Please stop using words you don't understand.
The governor does not want to outright kill Rick et al. He wants to send them into panic, hence the reason he fired off rounds in the air (doesn't care about wasting ammo since he has so much) and driving a truck through the outer fence. If the governor wanted to kill them outright, he would have brought a few snipers and finished them off very easily. He's been able to con a large group of people into following him and has hidden how sadistic he is from them, so don't think he's too stupid to figure out how to kill a couple of people hiding in a prison.
Finally, that is not the premise of the show. The Walking Dead is not about killing zombies or anything at all about zombies. It's about how people change in a world where there are no more governments, police, laws, etc. protecting you and to what lengths you have to go in order to survive in this world.
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On March 06 2013 12:17 javy_ wrote:
Driving from northern to southern california and takes about 7-8 hours depending on how much traffic you hit in LA. Imagine how much farther you could go in a day when there is no traffic and no speed limits (yes I know the are obstructions in the road like zombies and overturned vehicles). When you consider this, it's safe to conclude that the prison is far enough away that they don't recognize the area (even for a police officer) but still close enough to their home that it doesn't take too long to drive back without needing the writers to spell it out because there are a handful of viewers not bright enough to piece it together. In short, a "one day radius" is a very large radius.
I don't even know what you mean by "not bright enough". there is a vast difference between possible and believable occurrances, and rick being able to find his way across the state while not accounting for basic logistics like how far or how long a trip is going to take while they're in a state of open war with another group is just poor consideration of plot and setting when you give it even a moment's thought. please remember, this is the situation that you are advocating instead of the occam's razor approach, that it's just that they're really in a relatively small area outside atlanta and somehow rick didn't know or think about the prison that he had to have known of until after herschel's farm, which is a tiny, retroactive plot hole rather than an utter failure to set events up. truly, it doesn't help that rick is a sheriff to somehow not have known about a facility related to law enforcement.
Again, you're making assumptions without justifying them. Why should they come into "contact with all sorts of situations." You already saw that they didn't stop for the hitchhiker, so why would they stop for anyone else? They have only one mission and that's to get guns. Taking detours to help other people when the governor could attack at any moment would be very stupid.
they wouldn't stop of their own free will, but what about situations that require them to regardless? roadblocks, zombies, other survivors with their own little territories; once you introduce the concept of long travel into TWD, problems like these arise in terms of how you represent them in the story. until now, these supply runs have always been represented as short forays into nearby supply havens, which only supports the notion that rick's house has always been close. why do I have to invent rationale for the plot, I thought I watched serial drama to be entertained? (and I really thought I was with this episode... :/)
Rick assumed there would still be some weapons left back at his police station and decided to start looking for weapons there. He couldn't find them so he decided to check out two more places where he thought guns could be located. Before reaching these two locations, he found the guns taken from the police station and obtained them in addition to a few more. There's is nothing problematic or too convenient about this. If something is a "bit much for [you]," then you should leave it at that rather than whine about how the show should align with your preferences.
this doesn't even constitute an argument, you just disagree with me. well, I say going for a few guns and finding a gun store's worth is pretty goddamn convenient with war on the prison's doorstep, but you know what, I would have been okay with it if they'd saved it for another worse episode. in this one, with all the legitimately solid character work being done, it's just distracting to have to see a mountain of assault rifles and think "oh, I get it."
You are the kind of viewer who will nitpick when any minor detail is not explicitly spelled out for you by the writers. Rather than trying to misconstrue this as "poor writing," you should figure out an explanation yourself. The worst kinds of shows are the ones that hold the viewers' hands during every single scene.
dude, what? this isn't one scene, it's a small issue introduced and sustained by the entire episode that pertains to the legitimacy of the show's setting! I also get nitpicky when painfully obvious plot devices intrude on my viewing. I'm sorry, I guess I just don't appreciate the godlike content creators enough to do their work for them or to eagerly devour their messes.
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On March 06 2013 12:40 EpiK wrote:
The latest episode was surprisingly good, but it's just a filler. It doesn't make up for the fact that the main plot is screwed up. Why didn't the governor send in an armored truck to finish them in the first attack? I facepalmed so hard when they sent in that truck and released the zombies. Tactically, that might make sense if he wanted to kill them all to save ammo, but then there's the issue of confirming whether they're dead or not. It just seemed like a stupid / unsubtle way to show how sadistic the governor is.
The armored truck they took from the infantry unit earlier in the season could have just ended everything, or at least forced them all into the jail, and he wouldn't have had to lose any of his men. Also, when that attack failed, why not send a few men back with radios to scout the area to make sure rick's people don't do another counter attack? They've broken into woodbury before, why take the risk?
Also, Andrea. She needs to go.
This series started going downhill when it became more about people vs. people and strayed from the original premise of the show.
The show was always about people vs. people. Zombies were always secondary. Zombies are easy. People are hard.
It's been established that the governor is power-mad and hellbent on revenge. But he knows how dangerous the group is, and how vulnerable the Woodbury community is, which is why they're preparing for war. As far as the Governor knows, even the little kids like Carl are pretty cold-blooded, and Andrea's confirmed that they're all nutters. He also knows that he just killed one member, scared the hell out of some others with his power-mad shoot-up, and made their safehouse not so safe anymore. He's probably thinking (wrongly) that Rick's group is super scared, and that gives him some time to raise an army.
Why are you assuming there are no lookouts? What kind of shitty lookouts would they be if you knew they were there? Nothing is shown, so you assume nothing happened. Why do you assume the Governor is the perfect general? He's basically a politician, and the only time we've seen him be war smart is when they attacked that camp of soldiers, which was more just the stupidity of the soldiers than his military genius. I mean c'mon, his idea of attacking that camp of soldiers was to ride in his car and then pull out a gun. You expect him to attack a whole prison intelligently?
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On March 06 2013 12:40 EpiK wrote:
This series started going downhill when it became more about people vs. people and strayed from the original premise of the show.
Wasn't this kind of always the premise of the show? The idea of negotiating with others to form a better life outside of all the zombie nonsense going on? To find a home, a safe place to live for as long as they can? Remember, Hershel wasn't going to have any of them move into the farm in the first place. Technically, they had to fight Hershel on it. Not physically but by mentally persuading him. The way I see it with any post-apocalyptic show or movie, it always comes down to the people vs people thing. Fighting each other is an eventuality. The zombies and the virus becomes less and less prominent because that's what its not about anymore. It's about dealing with others and getting yourself into the best possible situation, while eradicating those who are bad in the process. Metaphorically, and I don't know if this was obviously intentional, but they ARE The Walking Dead. Not the zombies. They are infected with a horrific virus with no cure yet still feel the need to carry on with the greater good in mind. It's like an oxymoron.
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On March 06 2013 13:08 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 12:40 EpiK wrote:
The latest episode was surprisingly good, but it's just a filler. It doesn't make up for the fact that the main plot is screwed up. Why didn't the governor send in an armored truck to finish them in the first attack? I facepalmed so hard when they sent in that truck and released the zombies. Tactically, that might make sense if he wanted to kill them all to save ammo, but then there's the issue of confirming whether they're dead or not. It just seemed like a stupid / unsubtle way to show how sadistic the governor is.
The armored truck they took from the infantry unit earlier in the season could have just ended everything, or at least forced them all into the jail, and he wouldn't have had to lose any of his men. Also, when that attack failed, why not send a few men back with radios to scout the area to make sure rick's people don't do another counter attack? They've broken into woodbury before, why take the risk?
Also, Andrea. She needs to go.
This series started going downhill when it became more about people vs. people and strayed from the original premise of the show. The show was always about people vs. people. Zombies were always secondary. Zombies are easy. People are hard. It's been established that the governor is power-mad and hellbent on revenge. But he knows how dangerous the group is, and how vulnerable the Woodbury community is, which is why they're preparing for war. As far as the Governor knows, even the little kids like Carl are pretty cold-blooded, and Andrea's confirmed that they're all nutters. He also knows that he just killed one member, scared the hell out of some others with his power-mad shoot-up, and made their safehouse not so safe anymore. He's probably thinking (wrongly) that Rick's group is super scared, and that gives him some time to raise an army. Why are you assuming there are no lookouts? What kind of shitty lookouts would they be if you knew they were there? Nothing is shown, so you assume nothing happened. Why do you assume the Governor is the perfect general? He's basically a politician, and the only time we've seen him be war smart is when they attacked that camp of soldiers, which was more just the stupidity of the soldiers than his military genius. I mean c'mon, his idea of attacking that camp of soldiers was to ride in his car and then pull out a gun. You expect him to attack a whole prison intelligently?
As good as this episode was in a vacuum, it does make me question a lot of things. As far as I understood leaving the prison for greener grass wasn't an option because of the possibility lookouts and whatnot, yet they make this trip. Either it is a short trip, which makes the whole geography and Rick's lack of knowledge of the area questionable. If it's a long trip it doesn't line up with them having to make a stand. Why not just take the whole group and aim for a similar facility far away if traveling is so easy? And if they truly believe there are lookouts, leaving with 3 of the more able people would leave the prison vulnerable and open.
I also believe the governor is a bad character and the whole premise of Woodbury is off. I get that it is a show about people, but the war they're waging right now is based in nothing but the governor being a villain. A post-apocalyptic scenario like this could introduce many different conflicts based in real matters, or at least more believable personas. They could be fighting over water, food, medicines, facilities.. anything which could be scarce but necessary. But no, the governor is just evil. And in his evil plot he has successfully deceived a whole town into thinking he is not evil, and gets the same town to think war is a sound and reasonable thing. A war over nothing tangible at all.
But my main question is: Why doesn't the party just leave the prison and head for anything far away with similar potential: other prisons, military facilities, airports, powerplants etc. Any place which would have had a low personnel and a higher demand on safety. So many options seems better than willingly heading in to a fight with automatic rifles versus a bigger group than your own. There's not even anything at stake. They have already deemed the prison unsafe and they have nothing to get from Woodbury.
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On March 06 2013 14:37 Appendix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 13:08 Blisse wrote:On March 06 2013 12:40 EpiK wrote:
The latest episode was surprisingly good, but it's just a filler. It doesn't make up for the fact that the main plot is screwed up. Why didn't the governor send in an armored truck to finish them in the first attack? I facepalmed so hard when they sent in that truck and released the zombies. Tactically, that might make sense if he wanted to kill them all to save ammo, but then there's the issue of confirming whether they're dead or not. It just seemed like a stupid / unsubtle way to show how sadistic the governor is.
The armored truck they took from the infantry unit earlier in the season could have just ended everything, or at least forced them all into the jail, and he wouldn't have had to lose any of his men. Also, when that attack failed, why not send a few men back with radios to scout the area to make sure rick's people don't do another counter attack? They've broken into woodbury before, why take the risk?
Also, Andrea. She needs to go.
This series started going downhill when it became more about people vs. people and strayed from the original premise of the show. The show was always about people vs. people. Zombies were always secondary. Zombies are easy. People are hard. It's been established that the governor is power-mad and hellbent on revenge. But he knows how dangerous the group is, and how vulnerable the Woodbury community is, which is why they're preparing for war. As far as the Governor knows, even the little kids like Carl are pretty cold-blooded, and Andrea's confirmed that they're all nutters. He also knows that he just killed one member, scared the hell out of some others with his power-mad shoot-up, and made their safehouse not so safe anymore. He's probably thinking (wrongly) that Rick's group is super scared, and that gives him some time to raise an army. Why are you assuming there are no lookouts? What kind of shitty lookouts would they be if you knew they were there? Nothing is shown, so you assume nothing happened. Why do you assume the Governor is the perfect general? He's basically a politician, and the only time we've seen him be war smart is when they attacked that camp of soldiers, which was more just the stupidity of the soldiers than his military genius. I mean c'mon, his idea of attacking that camp of soldiers was to ride in his car and then pull out a gun. You expect him to attack a whole prison intelligently? As good as this episode was in a vacuum, it does make me question a lot of things. As far as I understood leaving the prison for greener grass wasn't an option because of the possibility lookouts and whatnot, yet they make this trip. Either it is a short trip, which makes the whole geography and Rick's lack of knowledge of the area questionable. If it's a long trip it doesn't line up with them having to make a stand. Why not just take the whole group and aim for a similar facility far away if traveling is so easy? And if they truly believe there are lookouts, leaving with 3 of the more able people would leave the prison vulnerable and open. I also believe the governor is a bad character and the whole premise of Woodbury is off. I get that it is a show about people, but the war they're waging right now is based in nothing but the governor being a villain. A post-apocalyptic scenario like this could introduce many different conflicts based in real matters, or at least more believable personas. They could be fighting over water, food, medicines, facilities.. anything which could be scarce but necessary. But no, the governor is just evil. And in his evil plot he has successfully deceived a whole town into thinking he is not evil, and gets the same town to think war is a sound and reasonable thing. A war over nothing tangible at all. But my main question is: Why doesn't the party just leave the prison and head for anything far away with similar potential: other prisons, military facilities, airports, powerplants etc. Any place which would have had a low personnel and a higher demand on safety. So many options seems better than willingly heading in to a fight with automatic rifles versus a bigger group than your own. There's not even anything at stake. They have already deemed the prison unsafe and they have nothing to get from Woodbury.
I think it's kind of strange how the creators of the show haven't really given much insight to the Governors past (Which they may do in a future episode perhaps?), but he actually does have a huge story behind him. I can't remember the name of the book ('The Rise of the Governor' I think?), but it explains a lot about his past and why he rose up to be insane.
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On March 06 2013 14:37 Appendix wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 13:08 Blisse wrote:On March 06 2013 12:40 EpiK wrote:
The latest episode was surprisingly good, but it's just a filler. It doesn't make up for the fact that the main plot is screwed up. Why didn't the governor send in an armored truck to finish them in the first attack? I facepalmed so hard when they sent in that truck and released the zombies. Tactically, that might make sense if he wanted to kill them all to save ammo, but then there's the issue of confirming whether they're dead or not. It just seemed like a stupid / unsubtle way to show how sadistic the governor is.
The armored truck they took from the infantry unit earlier in the season could have just ended everything, or at least forced them all into the jail, and he wouldn't have had to lose any of his men. Also, when that attack failed, why not send a few men back with radios to scout the area to make sure rick's people don't do another counter attack? They've broken into woodbury before, why take the risk?
Also, Andrea. She needs to go.
This series started going downhill when it became more about people vs. people and strayed from the original premise of the show. The show was always about people vs. people. Zombies were always secondary. Zombies are easy. People are hard. It's been established that the governor is power-mad and hellbent on revenge. But he knows how dangerous the group is, and how vulnerable the Woodbury community is, which is why they're preparing for war. As far as the Governor knows, even the little kids like Carl are pretty cold-blooded, and Andrea's confirmed that they're all nutters. He also knows that he just killed one member, scared the hell out of some others with his power-mad shoot-up, and made their safehouse not so safe anymore. He's probably thinking (wrongly) that Rick's group is super scared, and that gives him some time to raise an army. Why are you assuming there are no lookouts? What kind of shitty lookouts would they be if you knew they were there? Nothing is shown, so you assume nothing happened. Why do you assume the Governor is the perfect general? He's basically a politician, and the only time we've seen him be war smart is when they attacked that camp of soldiers, which was more just the stupidity of the soldiers than his military genius. I mean c'mon, his idea of attacking that camp of soldiers was to ride in his car and then pull out a gun. You expect him to attack a whole prison intelligently? As good as this episode was in a vacuum, it does make me question a lot of things. As far as I understood leaving the prison for greener grass wasn't an option because of the possibility lookouts and whatnot, yet they make this trip. Either it is a short trip, which makes the whole geography and Rick's lack of knowledge of the area questionable. If it's a long trip it doesn't line up with them having to make a stand. Why not just take the whole group and aim for a similar facility far away if traveling is so easy? And if they truly believe there are lookouts, leaving with 3 of the more able people would leave the prison vulnerable and open. I also believe the governor is a bad character and the whole premise of Woodbury is off. I get that it is a show about people, but the war they're waging right now is based in nothing but the governor being a villain. A post-apocalyptic scenario like this could introduce many different conflicts based in real matters, or at least more believable personas. They could be fighting over water, food, medicines, facilities.. anything which could be scarce but necessary. But no, the governor is just evil. And in his evil plot he has successfully deceived a whole town into thinking he is not evil, and gets the same town to think war is a sound and reasonable thing. A war over nothing tangible at all. But my main question is: Why doesn't the party just leave the prison and head for anything far away with similar potential: other prisons, military facilities, airports, powerplants etc. Any place which would have had a low personnel and a higher demand on safety. So many options seems better than willingly heading in to a fight with automatic rifles versus a bigger group than your own. There's not even anything at stake. They have already deemed the prison unsafe and they have nothing to get from Woodbury.
I don't know where you heard the leaving the prison wasn't a possibility because of lookouts. The reason they've said they don't want to leave the prison is because the prison is the most amazing place they've found so far. Chain fences to keep walkers out. Grass to farm on. Heavily gated cell areas for safe sleeping. It's a bloody godsend for people living in the zombie apocalypse for a year. How does a power plant sound remotely safe. You do know they break down in a catastrophic power failure right. How does an airport sound remotely safe compared to a gated prison?
They're making a stand because, as Glenn has said, the prison has been the most amazing place they've found so far, and nothing else even seems remotely close. So they would rather choose to defend the place then spend another winter out in the streets looking for a new home. They're not making a stand because they can't leave, where did you get that idea from?
The Governor believes he has scared the shit out of Rick's group, so they're in not mood or position to retaliate, so it gives him time to train his army.
Rick's group is desperately short on guns and wouldn't survive an attack by the Woodbury group regardless of whether or not Rick, Carl or Michonne were around. So Rick left to go scavenge for guns because he knows where to look for. Suppose they're a day off from the prison. It's not inconceivable that Rick wouldn't have made this trip before. They've never needed more guns before. They've been travelling for months. And a day of driving can pretty much get you across any state if the roads aren't really congested (which they had that brief car stuck in mud scene too).
The premise of Woodbury is, this is what a mob of people who have no idea what life is really like in a zombie apocalypse does. They're so deluded by their zombie trials and shitty motivational speeches that the moment something crazy happens, they freak out, and the Governor is just the calm, level-headed leader that knows how to work with people.
The Governor protects the people by being evil, so is he really evil? He's waging war against Rick's group because they've attacked his group first. And that's all of the story that the community knows. Andrea's here, and then randomly, some crazy people from the outside broke into their community, killed a couple people, then escaped. And they caught one person, and he happened to be Merle's brother. And just as they're about to lynch Merle and Darryl, Rick's group kills another 6 of their citizens. Are you kidding me? Would you really not be an angry citizen after this?
The citizens want revenge. How is that difficult to comprehend? They're an angry mob of people who've just been attacked.
And it's good that the premise of Woodbury is off. It makes no sense for a community like that to exist, but it has because of the way the Governor has kept them unaware of the world, and kept them safe. And now they're angry since someone has died. And in normal times, they know the other group has lots of guns, so they need guns too.
Rick's group broke into a prison completely stockpiled with food, water and medical supplies. What conflict over resources are you talking about?? Woodbury's group is perfectly well off in supplies.
I really don't understand what all your arguments are. Why do you assume in a zombie apocalypse that everyone's first instinct is, go find a prison? Maybe Rick knew the prison was there but it never crossed his mind that it's a good place to defend against zombies with?
I'm perfectly fine with like, constructive and well-thought out criticism, but really none of these "inconsistencies" make any sense...
On March 06 2013 15:11 blug wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 14:37 Appendix wrote:On March 06 2013 13:08 Blisse wrote:On March 06 2013 12:40 EpiK wrote:
The latest episode was surprisingly good, but it's just a filler. It doesn't make up for the fact that the main plot is screwed up. Why didn't the governor send in an armored truck to finish them in the first attack? I facepalmed so hard when they sent in that truck and released the zombies. Tactically, that might make sense if he wanted to kill them all to save ammo, but then there's the issue of confirming whether they're dead or not. It just seemed like a stupid / unsubtle way to show how sadistic the governor is.
The armored truck they took from the infantry unit earlier in the season could have just ended everything, or at least forced them all into the jail, and he wouldn't have had to lose any of his men. Also, when that attack failed, why not send a few men back with radios to scout the area to make sure rick's people don't do another counter attack? They've broken into woodbury before, why take the risk?
Also, Andrea. She needs to go.
This series started going downhill when it became more about people vs. people and strayed from the original premise of the show. The show was always about people vs. people. Zombies were always secondary. Zombies are easy. People are hard. It's been established that the governor is power-mad and hellbent on revenge. But he knows how dangerous the group is, and how vulnerable the Woodbury community is, which is why they're preparing for war. As far as the Governor knows, even the little kids like Carl are pretty cold-blooded, and Andrea's confirmed that they're all nutters. He also knows that he just killed one member, scared the hell out of some others with his power-mad shoot-up, and made their safehouse not so safe anymore. He's probably thinking (wrongly) that Rick's group is super scared, and that gives him some time to raise an army. Why are you assuming there are no lookouts? What kind of shitty lookouts would they be if you knew they were there? Nothing is shown, so you assume nothing happened. Why do you assume the Governor is the perfect general? He's basically a politician, and the only time we've seen him be war smart is when they attacked that camp of soldiers, which was more just the stupidity of the soldiers than his military genius. I mean c'mon, his idea of attacking that camp of soldiers was to ride in his car and then pull out a gun. You expect him to attack a whole prison intelligently? As good as this episode was in a vacuum, it does make me question a lot of things. As far as I understood leaving the prison for greener grass wasn't an option because of the possibility lookouts and whatnot, yet they make this trip. Either it is a short trip, which makes the whole geography and Rick's lack of knowledge of the area questionable. If it's a long trip it doesn't line up with them having to make a stand. Why not just take the whole group and aim for a similar facility far away if traveling is so easy? And if they truly believe there are lookouts, leaving with 3 of the more able people would leave the prison vulnerable and open. I also believe the governor is a bad character and the whole premise of Woodbury is off. I get that it is a show about people, but the war they're waging right now is based in nothing but the governor being a villain. A post-apocalyptic scenario like this could introduce many different conflicts based in real matters, or at least more believable personas. They could be fighting over water, food, medicines, facilities.. anything which could be scarce but necessary. But no, the governor is just evil. And in his evil plot he has successfully deceived a whole town into thinking he is not evil, and gets the same town to think war is a sound and reasonable thing. A war over nothing tangible at all. But my main question is: Why doesn't the party just leave the prison and head for anything far away with similar potential: other prisons, military facilities, airports, powerplants etc. Any place which would have had a low personnel and a higher demand on safety. So many options seems better than willingly heading in to a fight with automatic rifles versus a bigger group than your own. There's not even anything at stake. They have already deemed the prison unsafe and they have nothing to get from Woodbury. I think it's kind of strange how the creators of the show haven't really given much insight to the Governors past (Which they may do in a future episode perhaps?), but he actually does have a huge story behind him. I can't remember the name of the book ('The Rise of the Governor' I think?), but it explains a lot about his past and why who rose up to be insane.
That's like asking why the television series doesn't follow the comics.
The writers of the show aren't related to Robert Kirkman in the slightest. He's merely a producer.
Part of the allure of the Governor is not knowing why he is who he is, and the Governor in the comics is nothing like the Governor in the television series, so that would be pointless.
We already understand the Governor's motives by now. He just wants to be this leader-type figure for his community while keeping his daughter somewhat alive. But pretty much now he wants revenge and he's willing to use the people to do it. Is he insane? Or overprotective? Is killing the military men not unlike Rick leaving that poor guy this episode? Doesn't want to risk having them join, so let them die.
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both mine and appendix's arguments rest on what seems somewhat inarguable: that if the prison is close enough to atlanta/rick's neighborhood to go on a run when under heavy surveillance, and the whole shock and awe campaign supposedly had them scared but again it was just that close, that has to presuppose that rick should have known about the prison's location and summarily most of the surrounding area. I'm willing to dismiss any points about rick not just choosing the prison after leaving the CDC or that it really seemed like they lucked onto the prison, because his group was locked into herschel's area by the shooting of carl and their general newbie status in the zombie apocalypse, but now they're superbadass, armed, possess at least one vehicle and know the general area and hotspots because half of them used to live in the area. why would they remain at the prison? you can say that you'd prefer the devil you know over the devil you don't, but we're talking about a madman that's very clearly gearing up for a run on your group. at some point, the "this is our new home!" line falls apart under the light of reason; how could any journey and subsequent clearing of zombies be more dangerous than the governor? what is the motive other than we need a catharsis for the main plot?
I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd flip my shit if they packed up and left but I seriously wish the writing in this show was tighter. thematically, one day it's a dark, unforgiving slog against slow, encroaching death by zombie and ennui and then it's SUPERHERO RICK'S GROUP TO THE RESCUE AGAINST MORDOR/WOODBURY.
He protects the people by being evil, so is he really evil?
it's very clearly an ego trip for him to have people under his command and under his thumb, pretty hard to claim he's an altruist. add to that his penchant for grooming armies to go die for him by murdering other people and he's hanging a hard right into neutral evil territory.
Part of the allure of the Governor is not knowing why he is who he is
I'm sorry, but flat characters aren't alluring. the governor just barely escapes being a mustache-twirler by the skin of his teeth; it might be true that in the zombie apocalypse plenty of people would do what he does, but rick's morality and track record makes the governor into sauron by comparison.
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On March 06 2013 12:40 EpiK wrote:
The latest episode was surprisingly good, but it's just a filler. It doesn't make up for the fact that the main plot is screwed up. Why didn't the governor send in an armored truck to finish them in the first attack? I facepalmed so hard when they sent in that truck and released the zombies. Tactically, that might make sense if he wanted to kill them all to save ammo, but then there's the issue of confirming whether they're dead or not. It just seemed like a stupid / unsubtle way to show how sadistic the governor is.
The armored truck they took from the infantry unit earlier in the season could have just ended everything, or at least forced them all into the jail, and he wouldn't have had to lose any of his men. Also, when that attack failed, why not send a few men back with radios to scout the area to make sure rick's people don't do another counter attack? They've broken into woodbury before, why take the risk?
Also, Andrea. She needs to go.
This series started going downhill when it became more about people vs. people and strayed from the original premise of the show.
Im facepalming by your stupidity......
Obviously the governor is brutal. What fun would it be to just kill everyone in the prison. The Gov gets more pleasure by making them suffer. I mean the people at the prison are now afraid and constantly thinking about an attack from him
Also, It's not the zombies you need to worry about when resources become scarce. People become ruthless and will do anything they can to survive. Its other people you will have to watch out for in the end because zombies are stupid and cannot think. People are clever and will do anything they can to survive including doing things to other people
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On March 06 2013 15:47 TheExile19 wrote:both mine and appendix's arguments rest on what seems somewhat inarguable: that if the prison is close enough to atlanta/rick's neighborhood to go on a run when under heavy surveillance, and the whole shock and awe campaign supposedly had them scared but again it was just that close, that has to presuppose that rick should have known about the prison's location and summarily most of the surrounding area. I'm willing to dismiss any points about rick not just choosing the prison after leaving the CDC or that it really seemed like they lucked onto the prison, because his group was locked into herschel's area by the shooting of carl and their general newbie status in the zombie apocalypse, but now they're superbadass, armed, possess at least one vehicle and know the general area and hotspots because half of them used to live in the area. why would they remain at the prison? you can say that you'd prefer the devil you know over the devil you don't, but we're talking about a madman that's very clearly gearing up for a run on your group. at some point, the "this is our new home!" line falls apart under the light of reason; how could any journey and subsequent clearing of zombies be more dangerous than the governor? what is the motive other than we need a catharsis for the main plot? I mean, don't get me wrong, I'd flip my shit if they packed up and left but I seriously wish the writing in this show was tighter. thematically, one day it's a dark, unforgiving slog against slow, encroaching death by zombie and ennui and then it's SUPERHERO RICK'S GROUP TO THE RESCUE AGAINST MORDOR/WOODBURY. it's very clearly an ego trip for him to have people under his command and under his thumb, pretty hard to claim he's an altruist. add to that his penchant for grooming armies to go die for him by murdering other people and he's hanging a hard right into neutral evil territory. I'm sorry, but flat characters aren't alluring. the governor just barely escapes being a mustache-twirler by the skin of his teeth; it might be true that in the zombie apocalypse plenty of people would do what he does, but rick's morality and track record makes the governor into sauron by comparison.
I'm still confused, what are you defining as "close"? You do realize, today, a good 4 hour drive in the countryside gets you hundreds of kilometers from anywhere a small town sheriff would know about. Heck, even 2 hours of clear roads and I would have no idea where I am, let alone where is the nearest prison, if there is one. If the roads aren't super clear, like they showed this episode, then the allowed time span is still ridiculous, and you can't just say, "oh he would know the entire countryside by heart".
I've debunked surveillance, and you're under-estimating what "close" is.
Just because they're super bad ass doesn't mean they're going to risk their necks for maybe another year before they find someplace suitable to live in. Have you lived out scavenging, day-to-day for a winter? They have, and they don't want to do that again, because they do have a place that's amazing. Not to mention, as Glenn again said, they're also carrying an old man missing a leg and a baby that will lure every zombie for miles every couple of hours.
I can say whatever I want, but you guys are completely failing to put yourself into their shoes.
The premise of the Governor's character in the television series is that is he necessarily evil. Yes, he's having an ego trip, but while his ego trip is batshit, is it still not for the good of its people? Is a dictator still not good to his own people?
I already gave you the motives for why he's doing what he's doing. Do you want a backstory for him too? What about T-Dog? Or for Daryl? Because we have no clue what Daryl and Merle have been through except that they're bad-ass, and we've been perfectly fine with that.
We don't know exactly why he's doing what he's doing. We know he's somewhat good, putting the doctor guy to look for a cure. We know he's batshit since he's playing with his zombie daughter, and we can guess stuff about his past using those, and they're sufficient enough to push his character forward. Charismatic and mildly intelligent. Able to leads. Wants revenge for his daughter.
I've already said this in my last reply. Rick and the Governor seem like complete opposites, but are they really that different? They're varying levels of evil and lawful, but their motives are basically the same. Protect yourself. Make people pay for screwing with you.
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I think the presence of the baby is an effective enough counterargument to what I'm saying about just packing up (at least to where it is an actual, legitimate excuse) but most of your arguments via motive are kind of bullshit.
I'm still confused, what are you defining as "close"? You do realize, today, a good 4 hour drive in the countryside gets you hundreds of kilometers from anywhere a small town sheriff would know about. Heck, even 2 hours of clear roads and I would have no idea where I am, let alone where is the nearest prison, if there is one. If the roads aren't super clear, like they showed this episode, then the allowed time span is still ridiculous, and you can't just say, "oh he would know the entire countryside by heart".
he's a law enforcement officer who was able to walk to his house from the first hospital they took him to after the shooting that put him in a coma. there is no possible way he doesn't know what's around him and that it's not strangely close if he's able to commit to a drive that's short and safe enough to risk leaving his besieged prison. something is bullshit here: the imminence/capability of the governor's siege, or the geography of the show, or both. I'm also not even slightly saying he knows every inch of forest, I'm saying he should know major landmarks that also pertain to his profession in a very basic way. also, you're ignoring the very possible presence of zombie hordes and impassable terrain, but it's totally okay he just drives for four hours to get back to his neighborhood. okay.
I've debunked surveillance, and you're under-estimating what "close" is.
you haven't debunked anything, because even if the governor is going light on scouts there's still the very real perception that danger is imminent, as evidenced by the paranoia and the tower guards from the horrible andrea episode. I guess we can just set that aside to have a good episode though, I can almost convince myself that makes any sense just so I can get away from that plotline.
The premise of the Governor's character in the television series is that is he necessarily evil. Yes, he's having an ego trip, but while his ego trip is batshit, is it still not for the good of its people? Is a dictator still not good to his own people?
he's not evil by necessity, the existence of rick makes that question pointless. he keeps decapitated heads which implies choice or no choice, choice to be evil or the lack of choice implied in being insane. no, the people of woodbury are under an essentially fascist regime that is training them to go murder people. this question you're positing is utterly facile because you're trying desperately to salvage a character that borders on cartoonish. he's intelligent, stupid, a tactical genius and a cretin committing all his resources to a pointless war all at once.
I already gave you the motives for why he's doing what he's doing. Do you want a backstory for him too? What about T-Dog? Or for Daryl? Because we have no clue what Daryl and Merle have been through except that they're bad-ass, and we've been perfectly fine with that.
people were fine with t-dog being "the black guy"? news to me. daryl's had actual character development (not even that long ago, either...), the governor has had none, he occupies the very easy and lazy writing space of being an utterly crazy person who is still just canny enough to control the derpy populace of woodbury.
We don't know exactly why he's doing what he's doing. We know he's somewhat good, putting the doctor guy to look for a cure. We know he's batshit since he's playing with his zombie daughter, and we can guess stuff about his past using those, and they're sufficient enough to push his character forward. Charismatic and mildly intelligent. Able to leads. Wants revenge for his daughter.
I've already said this in my last reply. Rick and the Governor seem like complete opposites, but are they really that different? They're varying levels of evil and lawful, but their motives are basically the same. Protect yourself. Make people pay for screwing with you.
we've had ...9 episodes and we still don't know his real, true motive or why he acts the way he does other than REVENGE - since I'm pretty sure the arc with his zombie daughter getting killed is the same in the comic, I assume that's written in there and here to give him a legitimate reason to go ridiculously insane and commit all his resources to a war. it's still silly and kind of acceptable, but don't pretend there's any nuance to any of this, please. on that note, don't pretend rick is the same as the governor; it's mostly complete dissemination of information and a sense of morality - rick literally just took the chance to help morgan, when he could have just taken the guns and left - vs. fascistic restriction of reality towards the governor's continued power and decapitated heads. there is no parity between rick and the governor besides that they're both leaders and they both take responsibility for terribly stupid people.
bolded: rick makes choices that impede his individual survival for the greater good of the group all the time, almost every episode because he has carl to protect and a legitimate relationship with almost every member of his group. the governor controls the rubes he's herded together via misinformation and the best he can do regarding friends or confidants is milton, who is deathly afraid of him and andrea, who is a curse from vengeful gods. they could not be more different; the relative holiness of rick vs. the relative cackling and mustache-twirling of the governor turns the show from neutral survival of humanity into good guys vs. bad guys. it's a fairly serious problem.
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I think the presence of the baby is an effective enough counterargument to what I'm saying (at least to where it is an actual, legitimate excuse) but most of your arguments via motive are kind of bullshit. Show nested quote +I'm still confused, what are you defining as "close"? You do realize, today, a good 4 hour drive in the countryside gets you hundreds of kilometers from anywhere a small town sheriff would know about. Heck, even 2 hours of clear roads and I would have no idea where I am, let alone where is the nearest prison, if there is one. If the roads aren't super clear, like they showed this episode, then the allowed time span is still ridiculous, and you can't just say, "oh he would know the entire countryside by heart". he's a law enforcement officer who was able to walk to his house from the first hospital they took him to after the shooting that put him in a coma. there is no possible way he doesn't know what's around him and that it's not strangely close if he's able to do a short enough drive that it's safe enough to leave his besieged prison. something is bullshit here: the imminence/capability of the governor's siege, or the geography of the show, or both. I'm also not even slightly saying he knows every inch of forest, I'm saying he should know major landmarks that also pertain to his profession in a very basic way. also, you're ignoring the very possible presence of zombie hordes and impassable terrain, but it's totally okay he just drives for four hours to get back to his neighborhood. okay.
You've just compared a very short walk (plus a bike ride) to driving in a car for 4 hours, and you say my arguments are bullshit?
Supposing it was a 4 hour drive (and it was probably longer), you are smack in the middle of nowhere. Have you ever driven 4 hours in every direction from your city? Do you recall every single landmark in every direction? Now what if you've never even been focusing on that. Just because he's a sheriff doesn't mean he can randomly call up "hey the prison is a good place to survive in".
you haven't debunked anything, because even if the governor is going light on scouts there's still the very real perception that danger is imminent, as evidenced by the paranoia and the tower guards from the horrible andrea episode. I guess we can just set that aside to have a good episode though, I can almost convince myself that makes any sense just so I can get away from that plotline.
I've debunked it over and over again. In my last few responses I've listed many reasons why the surveillance idea isn't absolutely relevant, and I'm tired of repeating myself. Just because it's something you would do doesn't mean that Rick's group sees as much danger (look how stupidly unprepared they were already), or that Rick's group would think it's impossible to step outside for a day. The Governor hasn't proven himself to be the best military tactician, and even if there were scouts, Rick has to go scout for more guns if they even want to have a remote chance of surviving anyways. I don't see the paranoia from Rick's group.
I just don't see this disparity you speak of about surveillance and geography...
Show nested quote +I can say whatever I want, but you guys are completely failing to put yourself into their shoes. you're making this awfully emotional.
And you're trying to evoke even more emotional responses why? Grow up.
Show nested quote +The premise of the Governor's character in the television series is that is he necessarily evil. Yes, he's having an ego trip, but while his ego trip is batshit, is it still not for the good of its people? Is a dictator still not good to his own people? he's not necessarily evil, he keeps decapitated heads which implies choice or no choice, choice to be evil or the lack of choice implied in being insane. no, the people of woodbury are under an essentially fascist regime that is training them to go murder people. this question you're positing is utterly facile.
He keeps decapitated heads. That's our impression of him. That's not at all the impression other characters get from him. Everyone gets a different impression from him, but you can't seem to view him as a benevolent dictator if you were a citizen of Woodbury.
Show nested quote +I already gave you the motives for why he's doing what he's doing. Do you want a backstory for him too? What about T-Dog? Or for Daryl? Because we have no clue what Daryl and Merle have been through except that they're bad-ass, and we've been perfectly fine with that. people were fine with t-dog being "the black guy"? news to me. daryl's had actual character development (not even that long ago, either...), the governor has had none, he occupies the very easy and lazy writing space of being an utterly crazy person who is still just canny enough to control the derpy populace of woodbury.
You responded to "Part of the allure of the Governor is not knowing why he is who he is." by saying the character is flat. Thus, your argument is the character is flat because he has no backstory. I'm not saying they haven't had character development. I'm saying from his past you don't know why he's doing what he's doing. You can only use what development he's had so far.
Show nested quote +We don't know exactly why he's doing what he's doing. We know he's somewhat good, putting the doctor guy to look for a cure. We know he's batshit since he's playing with his zombie daughter, and we can guess stuff about his past using those, and they're sufficient enough to push his character forward. Charismatic and mildly intelligent. Able to leads. Wants revenge for his daughter.
I've already said this in my last reply. Rick and the Governor seem like complete opposites, but are they really that different? They're varying levels of evil and lawful, but their motives are basically the same. Protect yourself. Make people pay for screwing with you. we've had ...9 episodes and we still don't know his real, true motive - since I'm pretty sure the arc with his zombie daughter getting killed is the same in the comic, I assume that's written in there and here to give him a legitimate reason to go ridiculously insane and commit all his resources to a war. it's still silly and kind of acceptable, but don't pretend there's any nuance to any of this, please. on that note, don't pretend rick is the same as the governor, it's mostly complete dissemination of information and a sense of morality - rick literally just took the chance to help morgan, when he could have just taken the guns and left - vs. fascistic restriction of reality towards the governor's continued power and decapitated heads. there is no parity between rick and the governor besides that they're both leaders and they both take responsibility for terribly stupid people.
I don't see how you can think there's no way Rick and the Governor aren't similar. I'm talking about their intent, not their actions. The Governor's intent has been to protect his people, just as Rick's. They're just going about it in completely different ways, and you can half-understand the Governor's views. And I don't see why anger at being screwed with and losing your daughter isn't a legitimate reason to go to war, especially for someone as manipulative as the Governor, with as much power, and who also probably has a God complex to boot with all this time being leader.
Since the Governor was been screwed by Rick, he's motivated by revenge against Rick, just as Rick was angered by the Governor and needed to save Glenn and Maggie, but you can definitely see how the Governor can also put it in the light that he's trying to protect his people, just as Rick's intent is to protect his people. Why is this so difficult?
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On March 06 2013 15:33 Blisse wrote:Show nested quote +On March 06 2013 14:37 Appendix wrote:On March 06 2013 13:08 Blisse wrote:On March 06 2013 12:40 EpiK wrote:
The latest episode was surprisingly good, but it's just a filler. It doesn't make up for the fact that the main plot is screwed up. Why didn't the governor send in an armored truck to finish them in the first attack? I facepalmed so hard when they sent in that truck and released the zombies. Tactically, that might make sense if he wanted to kill them all to save ammo, but then there's the issue of confirming whether they're dead or not. It just seemed like a stupid / unsubtle way to show how sadistic the governor is.
The armored truck they took from the infantry unit earlier in the season could have just ended everything, or at least forced them all into the jail, and he wouldn't have had to lose any of his men. Also, when that attack failed, why not send a few men back with radios to scout the area to make sure rick's people don't do another counter attack? They've broken into woodbury before, why take the risk?
Also, Andrea. She needs to go.
This series started going downhill when it became more about people vs. people and strayed from the original premise of the show. The show was always about people vs. people. Zombies were always secondary. Zombies are easy. People are hard. It's been established that the governor is power-mad and hellbent on revenge. But he knows how dangerous the group is, and how vulnerable the Woodbury community is, which is why they're preparing for war. As far as the Governor knows, even the little kids like Carl are pretty cold-blooded, and Andrea's confirmed that they're all nutters. He also knows that he just killed one member, scared the hell out of some others with his power-mad shoot-up, and made their safehouse not so safe anymore. He's probably thinking (wrongly) that Rick's group is super scared, and that gives him some time to raise an army. Why are you assuming there are no lookouts? What kind of shitty lookouts would they be if you knew they were there? Nothing is shown, so you assume nothing happened. Why do you assume the Governor is the perfect general? He's basically a politician, and the only time we've seen him be war smart is when they attacked that camp of soldiers, which was more just the stupidity of the soldiers than his military genius. I mean c'mon, his idea of attacking that camp of soldiers was to ride in his car and then pull out a gun. You expect him to attack a whole prison intelligently? As good as this episode was in a vacuum, it does make me question a lot of things. As far as I understood leaving the prison for greener grass wasn't an option because of the possibility lookouts and whatnot, yet they make this trip. Either it is a short trip, which makes the whole geography and Rick's lack of knowledge of the area questionable. If it's a long trip it doesn't line up with them having to make a stand. Why not just take the whole group and aim for a similar facility far away if traveling is so easy? And if they truly believe there are lookouts, leaving with 3 of the more able people would leave the prison vulnerable and open. I also believe the governor is a bad character and the whole premise of Woodbury is off. I get that it is a show about people, but the war they're waging right now is based in nothing but the governor being a villain. A post-apocalyptic scenario like this could introduce many different conflicts based in real matters, or at least more believable personas. They could be fighting over water, food, medicines, facilities.. anything which could be scarce but necessary. But no, the governor is just evil. And in his evil plot he has successfully deceived a whole town into thinking he is not evil, and gets the same town to think war is a sound and reasonable thing. A war over nothing tangible at all. But my main question is: Why doesn't the party just leave the prison and head for anything far away with similar potential: other prisons, military facilities, airports, powerplants etc. Any place which would have had a low personnel and a higher demand on safety. So many options seems better than willingly heading in to a fight with automatic rifles versus a bigger group than your own. There's not even anything at stake. They have already deemed the prison unsafe and they have nothing to get from Woodbury. I don't know where you heard the leaving the prison wasn't a possibility because of lookouts. The reason they've said they don't want to leave the prison is because the prison is the most amazing place they've found so far. Chain fences to keep walkers out. Grass to farm on. Heavily gated cell areas for safe sleeping. It's a bloody godsend for people living in the zombie apocalypse for a year. How does a power plant sound remotely safe. You do know they break down in a catastrophic power failure right. How does an airport sound remotely safe compared to a gated prison? They're making a stand because, as Glenn has said, the prison has been the most amazing place they've found so far, and nothing else even seems remotely close. So they would rather choose to defend the place then spend another winter out in the streets looking for a new home. They're not making a stand because they can't leave, where did you get that idea from?
My point wasn't necessarily about those specific examples, but more about there being tons of places in our society built to keep people out, often accompanied by large fenced areas and some with emergency equipment installed to secure failsafe operation. If they're built to keep people out, they can keep zombies out. In the prison you have a unknown breach in the back where zombies crawl in and the front gate is run down. Add to this the actual necessity to defend it with assault rifles against a nearby mad man with more men than you at his disposal and I find it very hard to argue for it being a safe haven. I am fairly sure Rick or Glenn mentions the risk of being spotted while discussing with Herschel about leaving.
The premise of Woodbury is, this is what a mob of people who have no idea what life is really like in a zombie apocalypse does. They're so deluded by their zombie trials and shitty motivational speeches that the moment something crazy happens, they freak out, and the Governor is just the calm, level-headed leader that knows how to work with people.
The Governor protects the people by being evil, so is he really evil? He's waging war against Rick's group because they've attacked his group first. And that's all of the story that the community knows. Andrea's here, and then randomly, some crazy people from the outside broke into their community, killed a couple people, then escaped. And they caught one person, and he happened to be Merle's brother. And just as they're about to lynch Merle and Darryl, Rick's group kills another 6 of their citizens. Are you kidding me? Would you really not be an angry citizen after this?
The citizens want revenge. How is that difficult to comprehend? They're an angry mob of people who've just been attacked.
And it's good that the premise of Woodbury is off. It makes no sense for a community like that to exist, but it has because of the way the Governor has kept them unaware of the world, and kept them safe. And now they're angry since someone has died. And in normal times, they know the other group has lots of guns, so they need guns too.
It is difficult to comprehend because the Governor is working with zero transparency. All the people know is he commands his armed soldier without knowing what they actually do when they're aren't standing on the front wall. They have no clue, and then all of a sudden they're being attacked by unknown men for no apparent reason. They aren't plundered and nothing is stolen. I find it strange for the people to mobilize behind him when there are so much being apparently hidden from them. In the speech after the attack on Woodbury the governor shows he knows Darryl is Merle's brother, but nobody seems to wonder how he knows or who the terrorists are in general. It's all "Let's go kill, no questions asked."
They don't live in a world where they work 9-5 and go home to watch TV in the evening, longing to get drunk in the weekend. They live in a world where the effort you put in directly translates to what you get, and everything they've got is what they've built themselves. If someone now is threating that Why? How? and Who? would reasonably be the first things in need of an answer. All the governor says is basically "They're terrorists and they're bad".
I find it hard to suspend every idea of how a somewhat rational human being would react, in a world where rationality is essential, and then apply that to a whole population just so an unbelievable character like the governor could exist. And no, he isn't helping his people with his slaughtering, it is in none of their interest.
Rick's group broke into a prison completely stockpiled with food, water and medical supplies. What conflict over resources are you talking about?? Woodbury's group is perfectly well off in supplies.
Exactly.
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abandon all hope, ye who enter here
+ Show Spoiler +-You've just compared a very short walk (plus a bike ride) to driving in a car for 4 hours, and you say my arguments are bullshit?
Supposing it was a 4 hour drive (and it was probably longer), you are smack in the middle of nowhere. Have you ever driven 4 hours in every direction from your city? Do you recall every single landmark in every direction? Now what if you've never even been focusing on that. Just because he's a sheriff doesn't mean he can randomly call up "hey the prison is a good place to survive in". so he (and by implication the rest of the group, who almost certainly must be a reliable aggregate of geographical knowledge from around the atlanta area) is stupid. I suppose that's not outside the spirit of the show, and I seriously have no problem with the choices the writers made in terms of where they set their show in theory. in a physical sense, however, it simply strains credibility and forces me to pay attention not to the drama but to the construction. that is a basic failure on the show's part and not me being anal. I've debunked it over and over again. In my last few responses I've listed many reasons why the surveillance idea isn't absolutely relevant, and I'm tired of repeating myself. Just because it's something you would do doesn't mean that Rick's group sees as much danger (look how stupidly unprepared they were already), or that Rick's group would think it's impossible to step outside for a day. The Governor hasn't proven himself to be the best military tactician, and even if there were scouts, Rick has to go scout for more guns if they even want to have a remote chance of surviving anyways. I don't see the paranoia from Rick's group. in the episode before last, they were paranoid as fuck, on patrol and talking about governor snipers when andrea showed up. I guess that's just not enough proof to be conclusive that they're worried about a follow-up attack, though. again, it's that the characters are written to be stupid, and not that the writing is sloppy and deflates its own tension constantly. the correlation between geography and surveillance is more accurately described as one between geography and threat level in relation to how far the leader of the group can go on a run and not strain credibility when: 1) the group is scared of further attacks 2) there may well be people waiting to attack right outside the prison 3) there may be unforeseen circumstances relating to the decay of the world (zombies, roadblocks etc) making long travel impossible all of these things combine to say that either: 1) the prison must be very close to rick's town (consequences: or else he wouldn't be able to get there and back safely) 2) rick must have some way to get his vehicle outside of the prison safely (consequences: shot in the face, or there is no immediate threat and any tension strived for by the last episode dissolves) 3) if 1 is false and the two locations are far apart, there must be an amazing set of conditions allowing him to drive that far regarding gasoline and the logistics of road travel and avoid all these unsafe things 4) rick is a fucking wizard it's too much to pile on, man. And you're trying to evoke even more emotional responses why? Grow up. okay, guy arguing consistently and ardently from character logic and not the logic of the overall production. He keeps decapitated heads. That's our impression of him. That's not at all the impression other characters get from him. Everyone gets a different impression from him, but you can't seem to view him as a benevolent dictator if you were a citizen of Woodbury. are you saying I can't see it from their perspective? I'm the viewer, I have utterly no reason to care about them because they have no personality and I have the superior perspective. put another way, I know the score and feel nothing but contempt for them because I have been offered no way to empathize on a personal level with the plight of their group. I barely care for half of rick's group to begin with, because only about half that number could reasonably be described as having defined characters. woodbury stands no chance. You responded to "Part of the allure of the Governor is not knowing why he is who he is." by saying the character is flat. Thus, your argument is the character is flat because he has no backstory. I'm not saying they haven't had character development. I'm saying from his past you don't know why he's doing what he's doing. You can only use what development he's had so far. the job of a backstory at this point would be to excuse what he does and try to humanize him. that's impossible because he collects human heads. he is the bad guy, he is sauron, there is no nuance. I don't see how you can think there's no way Rick and the Governor aren't similar. I'm talking about their intent, not their actions. The Governor's intent has been to protect his people, just as Rick's. They're just going about it in completely different ways, and you can half-understand the Governor's views. And I don't see why anger at being screwed with and losing your daughter isn't a legitimate reason to go to war, especially for someone as manipulative as the Governor, with as much power, and who also probably has a God complex to boot with all this time being leader.
Since the Governor was been screwed by Rick, he's motivated by revenge against Rick, just as Rick was angered by the Governor and needed to save Glenn and Maggie, but you can definitely see how the Governor can also put it in the light that he's trying to protect his people, just as Rick's intent is to protect his people. Why is this so difficult? I can understand nothing about the governor because he is a caricature of a dictator. he cares nothing for his people, all his human impulses are irrevocably torn from him by his tendencies to brutally murder, torture and decapitate his peers. you can argue that's human, I'd agree with you in the basest sense but it doesn't mean I have any sense of anything for him as a person and not as this primal murdering force of evil. you might also say that his motivation is all penny's zombification and that he's almost like morgan, but even that is silly bullshit because I refuse to believe that you'd go straight from good samaritan to sauron just from that alone. none of it is believable to me, it's not a question of me not understanding your need to give the show more coherence than it actually possesses, it's just a question of whether it deserves it and it doesn't. sorry.
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I find it hard to suspend every idea of how a somewhat rational human being would react, in a world where rationality is essential, and then apply that to a whole population just so an unbelievable character like the governor could exist
inevitable counterargument: they don't have to be smart, they survived by being lucky and grouping up and the show is based around the survival of humanity, many of whom are dunces. we then have a show manned by a confederacy of dunces and nobody has to be rational because it's more human that way to be confused and tedious and never think about anything.
this show gets away with an unbelievable amount of bullshit, but really the highest offense has to be how grating all these characters are in a vacuum.
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anyone else have a vision of theExile on Sunday night, turning off his phone, locking his door, not drinking so he doesn't need to pee, getting out a pad of paper and five pens, and starting to madly write down every little detail that is inconsistent in the tv show all the while muttering to himself "this will really rile up teamliquid" over and over again like gollum saying "my precioussssssssssss" Then immediately after the episode going to ihatethewalkingdeadshow.com to see what other haters are writing to refine and expand his "arguments"...
Seriously - its a tv show - it is going to be inconsistent at times - there are going to be characters you don't like - there are going to be plotholes - every show has plotholes/inconsistencies
Actually exile - what is your favorite show that is so perfect and has no glaring plotholes?
On topic - I loved the episode - I loved that michonne is becoming part of the group - the only part I didn't like was that they left that poor dude walking by himself. Not once but twice. I mean - I understand why they wouldn't want to pick him up - but I didn't like it.
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On March 06 2013 23:01 pugowar wrote:
anyone else have a vision of theExile on Sunday night, turning off his phone, locking his door, not drinking so he doesn't need to pee, getting out a pad of paper and five pens, and starting to madly write down every little detail that is inconsistent in the tv show all the while muttering to himself "this will really rile up teamliquid" over and over again like gollum saying "my precioussssssssssss" Then immediately after the episode going to ihatethewalkingdeadshow.com to see what other haters are writing to refine and expand his "arguments"...
Seriously - its a tv show - it is going to be inconsistent at times - there are going to be characters you don't like - there are going to be plotholes - every show has plotholes/inconsistencies
I was visiting ihatethewalkingdeadshow.com just to see if it exists. Wouldn't have surprised me.
I think he just likes arguing for arguing's sake. Especially when he's right, since, well, there are a lot of plot holes and inconsistencies in the show, so you can easily endlessly argue your point there.
Yeah, the whole distance issue is somewhat of a glaring error/laziness on the writer's part. If Rick's hometown is right around the corner, he should have known about the prison. If it's not, why on earth is he spending two or more days away from the prison while it might be attacked at any point in time by the governor? Well, the answer is.. it's a goddamn TV show. And it's not a perfect one. So there.
We get that the show isn't perfect and that there are inconsistencies. We really do. We just happen to still like the show, and this episode in particular.
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I would not have a clue about the area, if I were to drive 4 hours in a random direction from my home, but with proper street signs leading me towards bigger cities, which are located around my home, it's perfectly possible to return.
One street sign saying "Atlanta x kilometers" or rather "x miles" should have been enough to provide Rick with enough information on how to get back to his town.
So there's a good explaination for both them not knowing about a prision hours away from their hometown and being able to get back in order to search for weapons (which Rick had a good chance of finding, because he first scavenged his police station in S1 and there were guns left).
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EPT
