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Discussing the show and past episodes is fine. Do not put things that have happened in the TV series in spoilers. However, don't spoil things from the books that may happen in future episodes. Put book spoilers in spoiler tags with a CLEAR WARNING that it is from the book. |
On October 26 2012 01:50 Hashbaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 25 2012 23:03 Requizen wrote:Well, even if there's no semi-magical mumbo-jumbo about zombie bites being a death sentence, you're still being bitten with a mouth of a rotting corpse. The amount of bacteria and rot that's coating the teeth and other surfaces would be like dragging an open wound through a garbage dump, if not worse. Compound that with blood loss and shock, and you have an injury that would be difficult to clean/cure even with modern medicine, which they don't have. Even outside of the Zombie virus, there's still plenty of vanilla diseases and sicknesses that can kill you by getting into your bloodstream, a lot of them probably live in a zombie's mouth. + Show Spoiler [TV/Comic spoilers] +Probably why Hershel's injury (and Rick's and Dale's in the comics) were solved by cutting off the limb. Removing the wound before all that bacteria and disease has a chance to spread to the rest of the body. You just restated what I was asking about. I'm not buying the diseases argument. There's got to be something else, or the show is internally inconsistent, and possibly also the comic. Is there a case like Jim's in the comic of a non-lethal zombie bite causing death through other than normal means? If so, I can't remember it.
How is that unbelievable though? Even if the bite isn't severe enough, corpses (and henceforth zombies) are filled with all sorts of bad goop. I'd assume ingesting zombie meat would also cause death, for the same reason.
In other media, the zombie virus alone is enough to kill you by getting in your bloodstream, but since everyone is already infected, I'd assume Jim's death came from some sort of disease he got from the bite.
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On October 26 2012 02:18 Requizen wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 01:50 Hashbaz wrote:
You just restated what I was asking about. I'm not buying the diseases argument. There's got to be something else, or the show is internally inconsistent, and possibly also the comic. Is there a case like Jim's in the comic of a non-lethal zombie bite causing death through other than normal means? If so, I can't remember it.
How is that unbelievable though? Even if the bite isn't severe enough, corpses (and henceforth zombies) are filled with all sorts of bad goop. I'd assume ingesting zombie meat would also cause death, for the same reason. In other media, the zombie virus alone is enough to kill you by getting in your bloodstream, but since everyone is already infected, I'd assume Jim's death came from some sort of disease he got from the bite.
I just don't see any positive evidence for it. Where did this idea come from? Not from the show or the comic, as far as I can see. So maybe Kirkman mentioned it in a letters column, or something like that. Or maybe we invented it here in this thread. I don't know. The main thing I don't like about the diseases argument is that it doesn't make sense for new zombies -- only old, rotten ones.
This season, Rick has treated zombie wounds like an immediate death sentence, as in every other zombie story. Same deal with season 1 when the group discovered Jim was bitten (Daryl wanted to kill him immediately IIRC). So to me the show feels like it is blending standard zombie rules with the zombie rules of the comic. That's fine if they are, but I'm just trying to figure out what the rules are.
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Kirkman stated in an interview that zombie saliva causes an infection that is fatal.
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On October 26 2012 02:59 Hashbaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 02:18 Requizen wrote:On October 26 2012 01:50 Hashbaz wrote:
You just restated what I was asking about. I'm not buying the diseases argument. There's got to be something else, or the show is internally inconsistent, and possibly also the comic. Is there a case like Jim's in the comic of a non-lethal zombie bite causing death through other than normal means? If so, I can't remember it.
How is that unbelievable though? Even if the bite isn't severe enough, corpses (and henceforth zombies) are filled with all sorts of bad goop. I'd assume ingesting zombie meat would also cause death, for the same reason. In other media, the zombie virus alone is enough to kill you by getting in your bloodstream, but since everyone is already infected, I'd assume Jim's death came from some sort of disease he got from the bite. I just don't see any positive evidence for it. Where did this idea come from? Not from the show or the comic, as far as I can see. So maybe Kirkman mentioned it in a letters column, or something like that. Or maybe we invented it here in this thread. I don't know. The main thing I don't like about the diseases argument is that it doesn't make sense for new zombies -- only old, rotten ones. This season, Rick has treated zombie wounds like an immediate death sentence, as in every other zombie story. Same deal with season 1 when the group discovered Jim was bitten (Daryl wanted to kill him immediately IIRC). So to me the show feels like it is blending standard zombie rules with the zombie rules of the comic. That's fine if they are, but I'm just trying to figure out what the rules are.
The rules are: it's a TV show.
Seriously, you're ok with the idea of people dying, and then their corpses walking around with a barely functioning nervous system and muscular structure destroyed or rotting, but it's the bites that get to you? Come on now, suspension of disbelief.
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On October 26 2012 03:32 BlackPaladin wrote:
Kirkman stated in an interview that zombie saliva causes an infection that is fatal.
Do you know where/when that was? And did he mention the "regular diseases" angle, or whether there is something special about zombie saliva?
On October 26 2012 03:35 Requizen wrote:
The rules are: it's a TV show.
Seriously, you're ok with the idea of people dying, and then their corpses walking around with a barely functioning nervous system and muscular structure destroyed or rotting, but it's the bites that get to you? Come on now, suspension of disbelief.
That's a cop out. Like I said, I'm fine if the show writers are blending zombie ideas from different sources, or even being inconsistent. The show (particularly season 3 so far) is still great and entertaining. But part of the fun of any fantasy type media is discovering the rules of the universe that differ from our own and working out their consequences and influence on the plot, characters, etc.
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On October 26 2012 03:50 Hashbaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:32 BlackPaladin wrote:
Kirkman stated in an interview that zombie saliva causes an infection that is fatal. Do you know where/when that was? And did he mention the "regular diseases" angle, or whether there is something special about zombie saliva? Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:35 Requizen wrote:
The rules are: it's a TV show.
Seriously, you're ok with the idea of people dying, and then their corpses walking around with a barely functioning nervous system and muscular structure destroyed or rotting, but it's the bites that get to you? Come on now, suspension of disbelief. That's a cop out. Like I said, I'm fine if the show writers are blending zombie ideas from different sources, or even being inconsistent. The show (particularly season 3 so far) is still great and entertaining. But part of the fun of any fantasy type media is discovering the rules of the universe that differ from our own and working out their consequences and influence on the plot, characters, etc.
Well, it's probably something special. Same kind of special that lets them live while dead.
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If I am not mistaken on a episode of The Talking Dead during season 2 they said infections/diseases caused by the bites is what caused the deaths, not the zombie disease its self. He didn't specify if it was directly related to the zombies or not though, I have all of Season 2 on DVD I can check later tonight if nobody else can find it in specific.
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For the last time because I'm tired of people misinterpreting the argument.
The bacteria in their mouth argument causing the infection doesn't make sense at all. Assuming a person just recently died, like Shane, then that would mean his bite wouldn't have enough bacteria in it to cause an infection. It is impossible in the 3 minutes to 8 hour span of reanimation for someone's mouth to have festered enough that the bacteria created is 100% lethal.
Since this is a fact, that would mean zombies who just recently reanimated around living people would bite them, and nothing would come out of that. There would be lots of instances in the early days of the outbreak of people getting bitten and surviving like nothing was wrong.
This interpretation would be stupid.
It's not about believing in zombies or not, it's that I'd rather have a theory that fits 100% with all the facts that we have. And simple bacteria infection makes no sense under the above logic.
So we look for other interpretations. Using the basis that even though Hershel was bit, he survived after the amputation and didn't turn into a zombie, the facts point to the idea that the infection has something to do with your blood, and possibly fluids. Based on some of the things from the Wiki and Talking Dead, we can piece together some kind of puzzle that holds consistently for any arguments we can derive. Right now, it's pointing to something supernatural about their saliva.
Such is the scientific method. When you get new evidence, it'll support or contradict the base theory and we revise until we get something consistent, hopefully if possible.
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On October 26 2012 08:59 Blisse wrote:
For the last time because I'm tired of people misinterpreting the argument.
The bacteria in their mouth argument causing the infection doesn't make sense at all. Assuming a person just recently died, like Shane, then that would mean his bite wouldn't have enough bacteria in it to cause an infection. It is impossible in the 3 minutes to 8 hour span of reanimation for someone's mouth to have festered enough that the bacteria created is 100% lethal.
I agree with you that the bacteria in the mouth theory doesn't quite work, but we don't know that bites from fresh zombies are 100% lethal. I don't think we've ever seen a recently reanimated zombie give someone a non-lethal bite that slowly festered in some unnatural way and caused them to die. The closest we've seen is Jim in season 1, but he was bitten by a presumably old zombie.
That said, given that the characters treat any bite as a death sentence, I think we have to assume that there is something special about zombie bites or zombie saliva or whatever, apart from the bacteria that would be in a corpse's mouth, which kills people even when the wound caused by the bite would not otherwise be mortal.
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Are we honestly going over the reality of how you turn? Jesus, more semantics shit. -.-
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FYI, a bite from a healthy person can cause severe infection. You can also get a nasty infection by punching someone in their mouth.
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On October 27 2012 10:22 Cloud9157 wrote:
Are we honestly going over the reality of how you turn? Jesus, more semantics shit. -.-
This. People really take shows on TV WAYYYY to seriously. It's a show about Zombies, just relax watch it and enjoy. No need to dive into detailed scientific analysis of the zombies it's a fictional world. They all turn when they die thats all you really need to know. Again its a FICTIONAL world, the author of the comics and the directer of the TV show can put in that gravity randomly stops working if they want too.....
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I mean, people that complain about the writing or acting of people I understand, but people arguing over the REALITY (keyword here, remember) of a FANTASY (second keyword) world make me want to tare my hair out. God forbid we sit down and enjoy a show without being so cynical towards such little things like new zombie bites v old zombie bites.
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On October 27 2012 10:59 Cloud9157 wrote:
God forbid we sit down and enjoy a show without being so cynical towards such little things like new zombie bites v old zombie bites.
Fucking hipster zombies.
+ Show Spoiler +
I'm going to be on the road when the next episode airs, so I'm going to have to DL it over my shitty internet speed. So I can watch it like... Tuesday? :D
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If you don't care whether there's consistency in the series over how zombies reproduce, then so be it. Then you should also shut up if Rick turns into a zombie next episode, because the director wanted that to happen. Or if all zombies could fly from now on, that should be okay with you. I see nothing wrong with discussing the points of zombification. I do see something wrong when people try to stifle discussion by posting essentially, "your opinions are irrelevant." I'd rather be curious about why the director and producer chose this decision about the zombies than be complacent about everything they do, like you few are.
If a producer wants his work of zombies to be taken seriously, he needs a consistent basis upon which he projects his own views onto. In simpler terms, it means that he can take the zombies from the Walking Dead comic series and put his own spin on the zombies. For example, that the zombies in Season 1 could run, climb over fences, and use rocks to smash the windows. That was accepted because it was his take on the zombies. However, you'll notice that onwards from Season 1, all of those ideas were scrapped completely. I haven't seen a "smart" zombie since, and that inconsistency really annoys the more hardcore zombie people, but most of us have accepted that they just messed up big time in the first season. All of this is a result of questioning the decisions of the director and producer.
When something happens in a show or in real life, you should wonder, why? Why is the sky blue? Why do people turn into zombies when they're bit? If they're bit one way, they die, but if they're bit another way, they live. What does that mean? I find that enjoyable, and some others enjoy discussing it too, so stop shitting on people's discussions.
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On October 27 2012 11:25 Blisse wrote:
If you don't care whether there's consistency in the series over how zombies reproduce, then so be it. Then you should also shut up if Rick turns into a zombie next episode, because the director wanted that to happen. Or if all zombies could fly from now on, that should be okay with you. I see nothing wrong with discussing the points of zombification. I do see something wrong when people try to stifle discussion by posting essentially, "your opinions are irrelevant." I'd rather be curious about why the director and producer chose this decision about the zombies than be complacent about everything they do, like you few are.
If a producer wants his work of zombies to be taken seriously, he needs a consistent basis upon which he projects his own views onto. In simpler terms, it means that he can take the zombies from the Walking Dead comic series and put his own spin on the zombies. For example, that the zombies in Season 1 could run, climb over fences, and use rocks to smash the windows. That was accepted because it was his take on the zombies. However, you'll notice that onwards from Season 1, all of those ideas were scrapped completely. I haven't seen a "smart" zombie since, and that inconsistency really annoys the more hardcore zombie people, but most of us have accepted that they just messed up big time in the first season. All of this is a result of questioning the decisions of the director and producer.
When something happens in a show or in real life, you should wonder, why? Why is the sky blue? Why do people turn into zombies when they're bit? If they're bit one way, they die, but if they're bit another way, they live. What does that mean? I find that enjoyable, and some others enjoy discussing it too, so stop shitting on people's discussions.
The thing is, we were giving perfectly logical explanations for the bites being lethal despite not being mortal wounds, but they kept getting shot down for not being canon.
There is no canon explanation yet. Maybe there will be, maybe there won't. Complaining about something that doesn't exist is kind of pointless in the long run, don't you think?
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I just realized Lori is the woman in the House episode about the Whore in the episode about the couple with an open marriage.
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Are ya'll really getting butthurt over the zombie bites... really guys?
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On October 26 2012 03:50 Hashbaz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:32 BlackPaladin wrote:
Kirkman stated in an interview that zombie saliva causes an infection that is fatal. Do you know where/when that was? And did he mention the "regular diseases" angle, or whether there is something special about zombie saliva? Show nested quote +On October 26 2012 03:35 Requizen wrote:
The rules are: it's a TV show.
Seriously, you're ok with the idea of people dying, and then their corpses walking around with a barely functioning nervous system and muscular structure destroyed or rotting, but it's the bites that get to you? Come on now, suspension of disbelief. That's a cop out. Like I said, I'm fine if the show writers are blending zombie ideas from different sources, or even being inconsistent. The show (particularly season 3 so far) is still great and entertaining. But part of the fun of any fantasy type media is discovering the rules of the universe that differ from our own and working out their consequences and influence on the plot, characters, etc.
This is a quote from Kirkman;
"The rule is: WHATEVER it is that causes the zombies, is something everyone already has. If you stub your toe, get an infection and die, you turn into a zombie, UNLESS your brain is damaged. If someone shoots you in the head and you die, you're dead. A zombie bite kills you because of infection, or blood loss, not because of the zombie "virus.""
From what I remember from the comics, the bites are always fatal. The only exception to this rule is what you saw in this last episode (amputation).
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We haven't seen anyone die from a new zombie yet.. so why are you all so hell bent on it being from the saliva?
Maybe we will NEVER see anyone bit from a fresh zombie.. maybe we will. I think the point is that you die from the blood loss and infection it causes. Like with Jim, we had a small bite and it took awhile for him to get the fever and die. The same thing with the big guy we just saw get killed.. he was bit on his back and was okay (not going to die from blood loss) but those zombies were rotting and hell yeah they are going to carry a bunch of nasty diseases.
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EPT
