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Judicator
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States7270 Posts
February 17 2012 19:03 GMT
#1621
You beat BS like you beat any other hero in a lane. That self-healing ability is only good against people who suck at hitting in the first place.

As for Sand King, if you are any good at SK, the Stun can hit behind the SK while you stun forward and 175 is more than enough to save you from death at level 1. Also, getting caustic is dumb, getting caustic before you hit 4 in Storm is dumb. The CD reduction on Sandstorm is infinitely better than some shitty skill that pushes the creep wave towards the opponent. Anyone saying that Caustic makes life hell for melees are playing against some #retards. You don't get Caustic against Brood either for anyone inexperienced enough to say that. Leveling orb means you are melee STR hero with shitty base STR (and STR growth) with no ability to protect your lane partner or yourself. No reason to ever pick up orb until 10. The only 3 builds that SK has are: 2-4-0-1 (defensive solo builds), 4-2-0-1 (most popular), 4-0-0-1 (stats over storm use to be most popular till the storm buffs). Caustic is pretty much the worst skill in the game (and no it really isn't even close), buffs or not.

As for CS, the high standard is around 6 creeps per minute of game time. If you are just starting out, 3 to 4 creeps per minute is pretty good.
Get it by your hands...
Spicy_Curry
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States10573 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-17 20:26:14
February 17 2012 20:24 GMT
#1622
On February 18 2012 03:37 Zlasher wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 17 2012 20:20 lozarian wrote:
On February 17 2012 19:51 Zlasher wrote:
Well...I wans't saying get high early caustic its relaly just a repelent. Level 1 caustic, maybe get it again at level 3 but you don't really level the orb past its 2nd level. But I was just thinking that its a pretty good 'counter' or at least fights well against the bloodseeker mid.

Also in a 1v1 situation against a melee I see no point in getting level 1 burrow. Get level 1 orb since the damage dealt by the orb does more early on, and then get burrow level 2 so you can combo after you harass him with the orb effect to burrow in to deal the final blow, but i'd go orb/burrow/orb instead of burrow orb orb...ever.


I play paranoid, having the stun and pseudoblink at level 1 might let me escape a lvl 1 fb attempt, either burror or storm, but if youre planning on going orb that leaves your burrow too low to start contributing early, or only level 1 of orb, which i can kinda get behind. Plus level 1 burrow can get you a kill if your allies go for a lvl 1 fb - I tend to feel if you're not taking your escape mech or a stun at level 1, you're doing it wrong.

Agreed with no more than 2 points early, but a couple of levels makes life he'll for melees.


The range on level 1 stun is so shit its like 175 practically melee range. Don't skill until you're in the lane about to make your first move and you see the 4/5 heroes accounted for. That pathetic range on the stun won't save you from a proper level 1 gank/roam.


Level 1 stun is more than enough to get away especially is you position yourself properly. The only situation where you get caustic is if you are trying to repel a hardcore push at your tower. Otherwise you end up giving your opponents too much area control.
High Risk Low Reward
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
February 17 2012 20:36 GMT
#1623
On February 18 2012 04:03 Judicator wrote:
You beat BS like you beat any other hero in a lane. That self-healing ability is only good against people who suck at hitting in the first place.

As for Sand King, if you are any good at SK, the Stun can hit behind the SK while you stun forward and 175 is more than enough to save you from death at level 1. Also, getting caustic is dumb, getting caustic before you hit 4 in Storm is dumb. The CD reduction on Sandstorm is infinitely better than some shitty skill that pushes the creep wave towards the opponent. Anyone saying that Caustic makes life hell for melees are playing against some #retards. You don't get Caustic against Brood either for anyone inexperienced enough to say that. Leveling orb means you are melee STR hero with shitty base STR (and STR growth) with no ability to protect your lane partner or yourself. No reason to ever pick up orb until 10. The only 3 builds that SK has are: 2-4-0-1 (defensive solo builds), 4-2-0-1 (most popular), 4-0-0-1 (stats over storm use to be most popular till the storm buffs). Caustic is pretty much the worst skill in the game (and no it really isn't even close), buffs or not.

As for CS, the high standard is around 6 creeps per minute of game time. If you are just starting out, 3 to 4 creeps per minute is pretty good.

I'm gonna have to disagree here; I've seen 4-0-2-1 used rather effectively even in high level cws for solo sand king. Unless your argument is that even high level teams are #retards, in which case you may be on to something...
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
flamewheel
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
February 17 2012 20:39 GMT
#1624
I've seen Blitz go 4/0/2/1 while laning mid with SK. Definitely think it's viable with the 8 second buff now.
Writerdamn, i was two days from retirement
Spicy_Curry
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States10573 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-17 21:38:44
February 17 2012 21:36 GMT
#1625
On February 18 2012 05:39 flamewheel wrote:
I've seen Blitz go 4/0/2/1 while laning mid with SK. Definitely think it's viable with the 8 second buff now.


It is viable, but do you really recommend a build where you put yourself in a very vulnerable position to a player who needs to ask how to build sk? When you push the lane especially in mid lane, you lose the high ground advantage and you open up 4 avenues of attack Can a new player really handle that when they could be doing just as well without caustic especially considering that caustic gives you no gank utility whereas sandstorm prevents you from dying with the disjoint and 1.5 seconds of invisibility. Most hero builds are variable but new players dont know how to properly use the camera and position themselves accordingly, hell camera work is probably one of the hardest mechanics in the game.
High Risk Low Reward
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
February 17 2012 22:14 GMT
#1626
On February 18 2012 04:03 Judicator wrote:
You beat BS like you beat any other hero in a lane. That self-healing ability is only good against people who suck at hitting in the first place.

As for Sand King, if you are any good at SK, the Stun can hit behind the SK while you stun forward and 175 is more than enough to save you from death at level 1. Also, getting caustic is dumb, getting caustic before you hit 4 in Storm is dumb. The CD reduction on Sandstorm is infinitely better than some shitty skill that pushes the creep wave towards the opponent. Anyone saying that Caustic makes life hell for melees are playing against some #retards. You don't get Caustic against Brood either for anyone inexperienced enough to say that. Leveling orb means you are melee STR hero with shitty base STR (and STR growth) with no ability to protect your lane partner or yourself. No reason to ever pick up orb until 10. The only 3 builds that SK has are: 2-4-0-1 (defensive solo builds), 4-2-0-1 (most popular), 4-0-0-1 (stats over storm use to be most popular till the storm buffs). Caustic is pretty much the worst skill in the game (and no it really isn't even close), buffs or not.

As for CS, the high standard is around 6 creeps per minute of game time. If you are just starting out, 3 to 4 creeps per minute is pretty good.


We won't agree then, and I'm sure you wont agree with people like Mania who do 4-0-2-1 all the time.

On February 18 2012 05:36 5-s wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2012 04:03 Judicator wrote:
You beat BS like you beat any other hero in a lane. That self-healing ability is only good against people who suck at hitting in the first place.

As for Sand King, if you are any good at SK, the Stun can hit behind the SK while you stun forward and 175 is more than enough to save you from death at level 1. Also, getting caustic is dumb, getting caustic before you hit 4 in Storm is dumb. The CD reduction on Sandstorm is infinitely better than some shitty skill that pushes the creep wave towards the opponent. Anyone saying that Caustic makes life hell for melees are playing against some #retards. You don't get Caustic against Brood either for anyone inexperienced enough to say that. Leveling orb means you are melee STR hero with shitty base STR (and STR growth) with no ability to protect your lane partner or yourself. No reason to ever pick up orb until 10. The only 3 builds that SK has are: 2-4-0-1 (defensive solo builds), 4-2-0-1 (most popular), 4-0-0-1 (stats over storm use to be most popular till the storm buffs). Caustic is pretty much the worst skill in the game (and no it really isn't even close), buffs or not.

As for CS, the high standard is around 6 creeps per minute of game time. If you are just starting out, 3 to 4 creeps per minute is pretty good.

I'm gonna have to disagree here; I've seen 4-0-2-1 used rather effectively even in high level cws for solo sand king. Unless your argument is that even high level teams are #retards, in which case you may be on to something...

On February 18 2012 05:39 flamewheel wrote:
I've seen Blitz go 4/0/2/1 while laning mid with SK. Definitely think it's viable with the 8 second buff now.


...It's not exactly standard but it can be done to great effect, especially if you're laning against Broodmother you'd be a fool not to go E, Q, E, Q, Q, R where you can get like 13 minute boots vanguard dagger in the solo lane, among other possibilities.

Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
scorch-
Profile Joined January 2011
United States816 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-17 22:41:03
February 17 2012 22:40 GMT
#1627
On February 18 2012 07:14 Zlasher wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2012 04:03 Judicator wrote:
You beat BS like you beat any other hero in a lane. That self-healing ability is only good against people who suck at hitting in the first place.

As for Sand King, if you are any good at SK, the Stun can hit behind the SK while you stun forward and 175 is more than enough to save you from death at level 1. Also, getting caustic is dumb, getting caustic before you hit 4 in Storm is dumb. The CD reduction on Sandstorm is infinitely better than some shitty skill that pushes the creep wave towards the opponent. Anyone saying that Caustic makes life hell for melees are playing against some #retards. You don't get Caustic against Brood either for anyone inexperienced enough to say that. Leveling orb means you are melee STR hero with shitty base STR (and STR growth) with no ability to protect your lane partner or yourself. No reason to ever pick up orb until 10. The only 3 builds that SK has are: 2-4-0-1 (defensive solo builds), 4-2-0-1 (most popular), 4-0-0-1 (stats over storm use to be most popular till the storm buffs). Caustic is pretty much the worst skill in the game (and no it really isn't even close), buffs or not.

As for CS, the high standard is around 6 creeps per minute of game time. If you are just starting out, 3 to 4 creeps per minute is pretty good.


We won't agree then, and I'm sure you wont agree with people like Mania who do 4-0-2-1 all the time.

Show nested quote +
On February 18 2012 05:36 5-s wrote:
On February 18 2012 04:03 Judicator wrote:
You beat BS like you beat any other hero in a lane. That self-healing ability is only good against people who suck at hitting in the first place.

As for Sand King, if you are any good at SK, the Stun can hit behind the SK while you stun forward and 175 is more than enough to save you from death at level 1. Also, getting caustic is dumb, getting caustic before you hit 4 in Storm is dumb. The CD reduction on Sandstorm is infinitely better than some shitty skill that pushes the creep wave towards the opponent. Anyone saying that Caustic makes life hell for melees are playing against some #retards. You don't get Caustic against Brood either for anyone inexperienced enough to say that. Leveling orb means you are melee STR hero with shitty base STR (and STR growth) with no ability to protect your lane partner or yourself. No reason to ever pick up orb until 10. The only 3 builds that SK has are: 2-4-0-1 (defensive solo builds), 4-2-0-1 (most popular), 4-0-0-1 (stats over storm use to be most popular till the storm buffs). Caustic is pretty much the worst skill in the game (and no it really isn't even close), buffs or not.

As for CS, the high standard is around 6 creeps per minute of game time. If you are just starting out, 3 to 4 creeps per minute is pretty good.

I'm gonna have to disagree here; I've seen 4-0-2-1 used rather effectively even in high level cws for solo sand king. Unless your argument is that even high level teams are #retards, in which case you may be on to something...

Show nested quote +
On February 18 2012 05:39 flamewheel wrote:
I've seen Blitz go 4/0/2/1 while laning mid with SK. Definitely think it's viable with the 8 second buff now.


...It's not exactly standard but it can be done to great effect, especially if you're laning against Broodmother you'd be a fool not to go E, Q, E, Q, Q, R where you can get like 13 minute boots vanguard dagger in the solo lane, among other possibilities.


The problem with the argument is that you're relying on the broodmother trying to push your tower with lings, and if BM does do that, 1 level of caustic or 2 levels in sandstorm is enough to wipe the entire wave in 3 seconds. There's no reason to get it at LEVEL ONE, especially not with the subpar damage it does to bloodseeker, who when he sees you've leveled that, will stand out of the lane and wait to get free CS on his tower and dive in to pick up the maybe one creep that will die while you're pushing your lane. You can't turn off caustic, if you could it would be an amazing tool, but since you can't you are pushing your wave with every last hit you get. Unless your goal is to push an early tower (not sure how you'll do this solo) there's no reason to get it. Its only reasonable use is to defend your tower at a much later level, or help farm/push in the mid-game without putting sandstorm on cooldown.

Just because a high-level player does something does not make it good or right. Wes Welker is a really good receiver, does that mean it was the right play to drop a pass?
5-s
Profile Joined June 2010
United States1674 Posts
February 17 2012 22:48 GMT
#1628
On February 18 2012 07:40 scorch- wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2012 07:14 Zlasher wrote:
On February 18 2012 04:03 Judicator wrote:
You beat BS like you beat any other hero in a lane. That self-healing ability is only good against people who suck at hitting in the first place.

As for Sand King, if you are any good at SK, the Stun can hit behind the SK while you stun forward and 175 is more than enough to save you from death at level 1. Also, getting caustic is dumb, getting caustic before you hit 4 in Storm is dumb. The CD reduction on Sandstorm is infinitely better than some shitty skill that pushes the creep wave towards the opponent. Anyone saying that Caustic makes life hell for melees are playing against some #retards. You don't get Caustic against Brood either for anyone inexperienced enough to say that. Leveling orb means you are melee STR hero with shitty base STR (and STR growth) with no ability to protect your lane partner or yourself. No reason to ever pick up orb until 10. The only 3 builds that SK has are: 2-4-0-1 (defensive solo builds), 4-2-0-1 (most popular), 4-0-0-1 (stats over storm use to be most popular till the storm buffs). Caustic is pretty much the worst skill in the game (and no it really isn't even close), buffs or not.

As for CS, the high standard is around 6 creeps per minute of game time. If you are just starting out, 3 to 4 creeps per minute is pretty good.


We won't agree then, and I'm sure you wont agree with people like Mania who do 4-0-2-1 all the time.

On February 18 2012 05:36 5-s wrote:
On February 18 2012 04:03 Judicator wrote:
You beat BS like you beat any other hero in a lane. That self-healing ability is only good against people who suck at hitting in the first place.

As for Sand King, if you are any good at SK, the Stun can hit behind the SK while you stun forward and 175 is more than enough to save you from death at level 1. Also, getting caustic is dumb, getting caustic before you hit 4 in Storm is dumb. The CD reduction on Sandstorm is infinitely better than some shitty skill that pushes the creep wave towards the opponent. Anyone saying that Caustic makes life hell for melees are playing against some #retards. You don't get Caustic against Brood either for anyone inexperienced enough to say that. Leveling orb means you are melee STR hero with shitty base STR (and STR growth) with no ability to protect your lane partner or yourself. No reason to ever pick up orb until 10. The only 3 builds that SK has are: 2-4-0-1 (defensive solo builds), 4-2-0-1 (most popular), 4-0-0-1 (stats over storm use to be most popular till the storm buffs). Caustic is pretty much the worst skill in the game (and no it really isn't even close), buffs or not.

As for CS, the high standard is around 6 creeps per minute of game time. If you are just starting out, 3 to 4 creeps per minute is pretty good.

I'm gonna have to disagree here; I've seen 4-0-2-1 used rather effectively even in high level cws for solo sand king. Unless your argument is that even high level teams are #retards, in which case you may be on to something...

On February 18 2012 05:39 flamewheel wrote:
I've seen Blitz go 4/0/2/1 while laning mid with SK. Definitely think it's viable with the 8 second buff now.


...It's not exactly standard but it can be done to great effect, especially if you're laning against Broodmother you'd be a fool not to go E, Q, E, Q, Q, R where you can get like 13 minute boots vanguard dagger in the solo lane, among other possibilities.


The problem with the argument is that you're relying on the broodmother trying to push your tower with lings, and if BM does do that, 1 level of caustic or 2 levels in sandstorm is enough to wipe the entire wave in 3 seconds. There's no reason to get it at LEVEL ONE, especially not with the subpar damage it does to bloodseeker, who when he sees you've leveled that, will stand out of the lane and wait to get free CS on his tower and dive in to pick up the maybe one creep that will die while you're pushing your lane. You can't turn off caustic, if you could it would be an amazing tool, but since you can't you are pushing your wave with every last hit you get. Unless your goal is to push an early tower (not sure how you'll do this solo) there's no reason to get it. Its only reasonable use is to defend your tower at a much later level, or help farm/push in the mid-game without putting sandstorm on cooldown.

Just because a high-level player does something does not make it good or right. Wes Welker is a really good receiver, does that mean it was the right play to drop a pass?

You're confusing technique with execution. Anyhow, MANY top sand king players have used caustic, so at the very least it's viable.
I liked Dota before it was Mainstream.
Zlasher
Profile Blog Joined February 2010
United States9129 Posts
February 18 2012 00:42 GMT
#1629
His point was that caustic is the worst skill in the game (what a joke) and that anyone who goes for orb is an idiot. My point is that at level 1 you can do a whole lot of damage with it against a melee hero, and get such a fast level 2 for your burrowstrike to execute a kill with a roamer like VS or CM or anyone.
Follow me: www.twitter.com/zlasher
justjuice
Profile Joined January 2010
New Zealand165 Posts
February 18 2012 11:34 GMT
#1630
How do i make the shop have all the items listed by removing the item names? Couldn't find it in the settings..
haitike
Profile Joined June 2009
Spain2723 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 12:03:53
February 18 2012 12:03 GMT
#1631
On February 18 2012 20:34 justjuice wrote:
How do i make the shop have all the items listed by removing the item names? Couldn't find it in the settings..


If you refer to the new grid view. It isnt in settings, it is in the own shop. In the top-right corner you have a small grid button.
Hoban
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1600 Posts
February 18 2012 12:43 GMT
#1632
Any way I can change my sticky item in the shop? Somehow I changed it to wards and I want it to be TP scrolls again!
"I am a leaf on the wind."
paper
Profile Blog Joined September 2004
13196 Posts
February 18 2012 13:06 GMT
#1633
Drag it?
Hates Fun🤔
MrTortoise
Profile Joined January 2011
1388 Posts
February 18 2012 13:33 GMT
#1634
On February 18 2012 06:36 Spicy_Curry wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2012 05:39 flamewheel wrote:
I've seen Blitz go 4/0/2/1 while laning mid with SK. Definitely think it's viable with the 8 second buff now.


It is viable, but do you really recommend a build where you put yourself in a very vulnerable position to a player who needs to ask how to build sk? When you push the lane especially in mid lane, you lose the high ground advantage and you open up 4 avenues of attack Can a new player really handle that when they could be doing just as well without caustic especially considering that caustic gives you no gank utility whereas sandstorm prevents you from dying with the disjoint and 1.5 seconds of invisibility. Most hero builds are variable but new players dont know how to properly use the camera and position themselves accordingly, hell camera work is probably one of the hardest mechanics in the game.



Arguments that say he is noob so give easier skill build are a bit duplicitous.

If you arnt doign soemthing one of the best ways then you are doing it wrong surley?
What you are saying is do not pick if you are too noob to control.
Spicy_Curry
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States10573 Posts
February 18 2012 17:49 GMT
#1635
On February 18 2012 22:33 MrTortoise wrote:
Show nested quote +
On February 18 2012 06:36 Spicy_Curry wrote:
On February 18 2012 05:39 flamewheel wrote:
I've seen Blitz go 4/0/2/1 while laning mid with SK. Definitely think it's viable with the 8 second buff now.


It is viable, but do you really recommend a build where you put yourself in a very vulnerable position to a player who needs to ask how to build sk? When you push the lane especially in mid lane, you lose the high ground advantage and you open up 4 avenues of attack Can a new player really handle that when they could be doing just as well without caustic especially considering that caustic gives you no gank utility whereas sandstorm prevents you from dying with the disjoint and 1.5 seconds of invisibility. Most hero builds are variable but new players dont know how to properly use the camera and position themselves accordingly, hell camera work is probably one of the hardest mechanics in the game.



Arguments that say he is noob so give easier skill build are a bit duplicitous.

If you arnt doign soemthing one of the best ways then you are doing it wrong surley?
What you are saying is do not pick if you are too noob to control.


Thats assuming that it is the best way to play. Which it is if you can recognize the situation appropriately. I new player cannot do that.
High Risk Low Reward
Xahhk
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada540 Posts
February 18 2012 18:03 GMT
#1636
Is Razor worth building to be a late game Carry (as in farming as much as possible rather than ganking)? Or am I correct in that you should try to squeeze out as much as you can from him before the game gets into late game (by ganking heavily)?
rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
February 18 2012 20:38 GMT
#1637
On February 19 2012 03:03 Xahhk wrote:
Is Razor worth building to be a late game Carry (as in farming as much as possible rather than ganking)? Or am I correct in that you should try to squeeze out as much as you can from him before the game gets into late game (by ganking heavily)?

no not really. all you have to do is look at his stat gain and his ultimate to realize he can't scale well
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
Nilrem
Profile Blog Joined February 2009
United States3684 Posts
February 18 2012 22:08 GMT
#1638
Could I get some suggestions for WR late game items - I usually am going Basilius quickly, phase boot, Wand, and than force Stick (which I am still trying to get use to using).. I end up getting into a situation where I am just not sure where to proceed since my powershots end up doing less and less over time. I have gone sheepstick before, but wondering if there are other potentials out there to aid in my keeping somewhat up.

Not meaning like true carry, but support while keeping somewhat up in damage.
Meepo Haters gonna Hate. https://twitter.com/KazeNilrem (@KazeNilrem)
Numy
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
South Africa35471 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-02-18 22:51:43
February 18 2012 22:50 GMT
#1639
On February 19 2012 07:08 Nilrem wrote:
Could I get some suggestions for WR late game items - I usually am going Basilius quickly, phase boot, Wand, and than force Stick (which I am still trying to get use to using).. I end up getting into a situation where I am just not sure where to proceed since my powershots end up doing less and less over time. I have gone sheepstick before, but wondering if there are other potentials out there to aid in my keeping somewhat up.

Not meaning like true carry, but support while keeping somewhat up in damage.


Mek, Guinsoos, pipe are all good options you can go. It really depends on what your team needs. If it needs damage than go damage, if it needs hex then get hex, if it needs pipe then go pipe. That's basically how windrunner rolls. She's prob the most versatile hero in the game so there's no real "correct" late game build. You just got to see what the situation is and build accordingly
LAN-f34r
Profile Joined December 2010
New Zealand2099 Posts
February 18 2012 23:56 GMT
#1640
I have a friend who swears by orchid on semi-carry WR.
The only barrier to truth is the presumption that you already have it. It's through our pane (pain) we window (win though).
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