EPTNext question - Why doesn't lich get used vs trilanes anymore? Not only do you get pushed back via your sacrifice, but you also deny their carry some farm. I know lich himself isn't that popular due to pushing line ups, but spamming your blast can be effective at stopping tower push, and against a trilane you don't really have any control over how much the lane pushes anyway, and if they choose to push you are going to need help, whether you are lich or windrunner.
Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 78
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
Next question - Why doesn't lich get used vs trilanes anymore? Not only do you get pushed back via your sacrifice, but you also deny their carry some farm. I know lich himself isn't that popular due to pushing line ups, but spamming your blast can be effective at stopping tower push, and against a trilane you don't really have any control over how much the lane pushes anyway, and if they choose to push you are going to need help, whether you are lich or windrunner. | ||
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Spicy_Curry
United States10573 Posts
On February 15 2012 10:57 LAN-f34r wrote: Get CotS if your lane opponent has mana problems and high costing spells. Some lanes simply can't deal with it, as they either lose hp and mana to the curse, or all their mana via casting spells (which means your next curse will destroy their hp). However, many lanes have a low mana cost spell they can use as a get out of curse free card. Next question - Why doesn't lich get used vs trilanes anymore? Not only do you get pushed back via your sacrifice, but you also deny their carry some farm. I know lich himself isn't that popular due to pushing line ups, but spamming your blast can be effective at stopping tower push, and against a trilane you don't really have any control over how much the lane pushes anyway, and if they choose to push you are going to need help, whether you are lich or windrunner. Sacrifice helps the other team push but if you want to be stubborn you will see lich being run with a carry, i think the last game he was run was Panzer vs Dignitas? | ||
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Gliche
United States811 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On February 15 2012 15:53 Gliche wrote: Is there a way to play a truly effective juggernaut? I used to play dota a long time ago and started again with a friend just for fun. I feel like Icefrog needed to revamp this hero. Ideas behind his skills are cool but effectiveness is embarrassing. The best I can do is play him like a tank with bladefury and healing ward, and it just feels bad. Juggernaut plays best as a carry that gets into some early game ganks, settles back into a pushing/farming tempo midgame, and then comes into lategame with his big items. Early game, farm as well as you can toward Phase Boots. Don't take Ward or crit at low levels, opting for Stats instead (how many points of Stats you need before you start taking Ward/Crit depends on how hard your lane is--when I watched ZSMJ play Jugg, he said something between 2 and 5 points of stats). Once you have Phase Boots, you can coordinate with lanes to get kills. Your ult and blade fury have phenomenal baseline damage, and leave little room for you to be counter-killed, but you need some CC to set you up. The money from ganking/cleaning up lanes should put you along your way to Perseverance. Once you've pushed the tempo forward for your teammates, you want to settle back and catch up on some farm, finishing Battlefury and getting some farming done. Make sure you still look for good opportunities to countergank and go to fights when needed. After Battlefury, the safest item choice is Manta Style, but Vlad's, Diffusal, S&Y, etc. can all be reasonable buys at this stage as well. | ||
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PHILtheTANK
United States1834 Posts
I have a question. If you're playing Chen and you grab multiple Wildkins(the bird dudes) do multiple tornadoes stack or is it just one aoe debuff? | ||
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Hoban
United States1600 Posts
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
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LAN-f34r
New Zealand2099 Posts
On February 15 2012 12:01 Spicy_Curry wrote: Sacrifice helps the other team push but if you want to be stubborn you will see lich being run with a carry, i think the last game he was run was Panzer vs Dignitas? That is not what I am saying. Why did lich stop being played vs a trilane? I know he isn't, but why? You can't stop their push anyway of that is what they try to do, lich doesn't stop that, although he is far form the best counter pusher. But he stopped being used vs a trilane, but was still popular as a support from a while, indicating that push line-ups wasn't what caused it. So why is this? | ||
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PHILtheTANK
United States1834 Posts
On February 15 2012 17:09 Hoban wrote: You can still auto-attack while spinning right? That should basically be a free BKB while upping your damage by a fair margin. But as Yango and PHIL said, he is best played with a laner who can slow/stun (crystal maiden is your girlfriend I swear it) because his spin is ridiculous. Stats for the first few levels is very beneficial as well and helps you net a nearly kill or two. Mid game your job is to farm. If you see an opportunity to catch an opponent in the forest alone then that is almost a sure-fire kill. Late game your crit allows you to hit very hard with items and also your healing ward is very useful for sieging a barracks. The AoE heal it gives your team is very powerful post-fight. Nah you can't auto attack while spinning, its such shit in late game, only really useful for spin TP. According to playdota it says • If a unit is not being affected by Blade Fury, Yurnero can perform normal attacks against this unit. Which I guess means you can attack buildings because the spin doesn't affect buildings. | ||
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Hoban
United States1600 Posts
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PHILtheTANK
United States1834 Posts
On February 15 2012 17:50 Hoban wrote: Ahh gotcha. Well shucks. I was never really a fan of jugg. When I go carry I go haaaard carry. Except AM. He can die in a pure damage fire for all I care. Cool to know you can TP and spin. That is actually really really useful to know. Ya its a nice escape mechanism. Jugg is actually one of the characters i've never lost on lol(from randoming) He has a really nice early game, as long as you have a decent lane, and as long as you can farm decently well and get some ganks in you can really snowball hard. Although hes never really used in competitive games becuase hes kinda awful as a real carry. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/NDLPO.png) Im the juggernaut bitch!!!(game from like a week ago, but its still sweet) | ||
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lozarian
United Kingdom1043 Posts
Lvl 1: 525-750 2: 1050-1500 3: 1575-2250 Clear the creep wave, and it's crazy. Agha buffs the ulti damage by 525-750 each level. Solid item on him now, depending on team. I like laning him with a quas voker, because cold snap + fury = hilarious. His crit is also o e of the best in the game, he tails off if the game goes super crazy long, but his midgame potential is up near the top, plus fury + travels/tp is almost as annoying as furion. | ||
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Hassybaby
United Kingdom10823 Posts
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lozarian
United Kingdom1043 Posts
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Appendix
Sweden979 Posts
But just buy a BKB for mid/late instead of using bladefury in fights, the damage is just so low compared to any decent farm to autoattack with. (This is not prolevel though, just average level) On February 15 2012 22:56 lozarian wrote: Theoretically. And if you could magically find a way to attack through ethereal, that too. Bladefury damages ethereal | ||
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Dead9
United States4725 Posts
but yes you can autoattack bkb'd heroes how it works is when ur blade furied u still hit things, u just do 0 damage to things that are affected by blade fury so a deso, for example, would still give you -6 armor, you just wouldn't be doing any damage what that means is what u really want to do is buy treads and then stack thunderhammers for maximum thunder output | ||
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lozarian
United Kingdom1043 Posts
http://www.playdota.com/forums/showthread.php?t=379987 But that changed 2 years ago  apologies. | ||
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Bloodash
Netherlands1384 Posts
I often use soul ring on him as it works nicely with the short cd of his ulti, but he attacks just sooo slow untill his ulti is at least lvl 2, and apparently phase boots is the way to go, and after that I need either bkb or something else beefy as you are easy to focus down, but in the meantime your attackspeed is shite so that your damage output is one of the lowest of any str. hero basicly what I'm asking is, whats a good build/ skillorder for him on dual lane or jungle if that's viable on him, and how do you behave as an alchemist early/mid/late game? | ||
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Slardar
Canada7593 Posts
On February 15 2012 16:08 TheYango wrote: Juggernaut plays best as a carry that gets into some early game ganks, settles back into a pushing/farming tempo midgame, and then comes into lategame with his big items. Early game, farm as well as you can toward Phase Boots. Don't take Ward or crit at low levels, opting for Stats instead (how many points of Stats you need before you start taking Ward/Crit depends on how hard your lane is--when I watched ZSMJ play Jugg, he said something between 2 and 5 points of stats). Once you have Phase Boots, you can coordinate with lanes to get kills. Your ult and blade fury have phenomenal baseline damage, and leave little room for you to be counter-killed, but you need some CC to set you up. The money from ganking/cleaning up lanes should put you along your way to Perseverance. Once you've pushed the tempo forward for your teammates, you want to settle back and catch up on some farm, finishing Battlefury and getting some farming done. Make sure you still look for good opportunities to countergank and go to fights when needed. After Battlefury, the safest item choice is Manta Style, but Vlad's, Diffusal, S&Y, etc. can all be reasonable buys at this stage as well. TheYango is pretty awesome! Yeah great advice, only thing I can emphasize is make sure you have a reliable stunner/slower in the lane phase so you can get kills with your Bladefury, otherwise you'd have to rely on enemy mistakes or putting yourself at big risk to get a kill. Not necessary, that and I gank every time Omnislash is up then go back to farming. Especially if their carry has no escape (like a Drow for example) easy way to keep them down, and you up, @BloodAsh - Not too big a fan of Alchemist not sure . Soul Ring, farming, defensive item and try to rush Radiance? | ||
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lozarian
United Kingdom1043 Posts
Past the radiance you want survivability. A heart or something. Alternatively - vanguard, treads, mjollnir. Same skill build, start getting into fights earlier. With the crazy low BAT of alche in ulti form mjoll works well, you can then get abyssal after that. Your job is basically be Tanky aoe dps and then regular dps. You also farm absurdly fast with greed, and as long as your allies don't utterly suck then a very early radiance means you both farm crazy good, and do about 80 dps in a massive aoe during team fights. | ||
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