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On April 27 2013 04:45 Sn0_Man wrote:
Atos has this problem where it doesn't actually give you mana regen (pure int is incredibly inefficient at giving you mana regen). Skywrath can spend in the environment of 75 mana a second (ad infinitum) without breaking a sweat, assuming he has targets. I actually think atos is good on him but you really need a regen item fast as well.
you can't regen 800mana every 20sec. He needs survivability, enough to be able to land one decent combo and survive to spam arcanes.
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On April 27 2013 04:45 Sn0_Man wrote:
Atos has this problem where it doesn't actually give you mana regen (pure int is incredibly inefficient at giving you mana regen). Skywrath can spend in the environment of 75 mana a second (ad infinitum) without breaking a sweat, assuming he has targets. I actually think atos is good on him but you really need a regen item fast as well.
As a first item 150% mana regen isn't going to do anything for you either. Going from 3 mana/sec to 7.5/sec is practically meaningless. Mana regen and int are connected in that you need a lot of both to see any benefit. You're just gonna blow your load on something and eventually you'll reach the point where you can sustain bolts afterwards, but that isn't going to be from your first item. Mana pool is far more significant early on than regen/sustainability.
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For sure. I think atos is a good item on him, but early game he has enough range on all his spells to stay out of the battle, and IMO will get more from a cheap regen item (even if it's just a void stone) than from a finished atos. As soon as the enemy team can "gap-close" as it were, he desperately needs survivability which probably comes in the form of either force staff or atos, depending on farm and what your team needs.
It really isn't about regenerating enough for ulti, its about regenerating enough to more or less spam you cheap nuke without having to base constantly 
E: semi-ninja'd. I still think that you need something for regen before atos. Maybe it's just mana boots and a bottle? :3
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United States47024 Posts
Force Staff takes priority over eithe Eul's or Atos as a first item regardless, because it's active's usefulness toward survivability outweighs what Eul's and Atos accomplish.
As far as Atos vs. Eul's, there's the argument that Skywrath Mage's baseline survivability is already so awful that a Vit Booster's worth of HP is going to be LESS effective toward improving your survivability than 30 MS and the Cyclone active.
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Buuuuut atos is 325 HP 
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On April 27 2013 05:17 TheYango wrote:
Force Staff takes priority over eithe Eul's or Atos as a first item regardless, because it's active's usefulness toward survivability outweighs what Eul's and Atos accomplish.
As far as Atos vs. Eul's, there's the argument that Skywrath Mage's baseline survivability is already so awful that a Vit Booster's worth of HP is going to be LESS effective toward improving your survivability than 30 MS and the Cyclone active.
I like this line of reasoning, it seems silly to focus on hp for a hero with .52 base armor and +0.8 agi/level since your eHP gains are going to be so small. When I play Rubick I tend to feel that same; that I barely notice the HP gains because he's all around so squishy and that's WITH his passive and almost twice the amount of armor.
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What about a Euls on Tiny?
Looking at the core builds quickly on alttab ganker is bottle, wand, arcanes, blink (and carry is phase, drums, yasha aghs).
A Euls is probably not as good as blink in initiation with it's 1200 range (Euls only have 700) but if you get in range with your uber speed you can get right next to them for your combo when they drop down.
It doesn't give as much extra mana pool as arcane boots (only 130 from the int) but the regen should be about the same.
It's also the same price as both those items. at 2700 (+450 for brown boots) = 3150 vs 3600 for arcanes and blinkdagger.
Also get the option to get a better pair of boots.
It could probably work on carry tiny too because you could farm a lot with your spells and it certainly helps the movespeed stacking. In fact it might make phase boots a bit excessive so perhaps you could go threads instead.
Edit: Quick math shows that max movespeed with threads are 497 and phase with phase active is 560ish so quite above max.
Phase are great until you get your lvl 3 ulti tho but threads give you attackspeed so they are probably better.
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It delays your lategame too much.
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On April 27 2013 17:12 Erasme wrote:
It delays your lategame too much.
Probably true. 
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On April 27 2013 05:39 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 05:17 TheYango wrote:
Force Staff takes priority over eithe Eul's or Atos as a first item regardless, because it's active's usefulness toward survivability outweighs what Eul's and Atos accomplish.
As far as Atos vs. Eul's, there's the argument that Skywrath Mage's baseline survivability is already so awful that a Vit Booster's worth of HP is going to be LESS effective toward improving your survivability than 30 MS and the Cyclone active. I like this line of reasoning, it seems silly to focus on hp for a hero with .52 base armor and +0.8 agi/level since your eHP gains are going to be so small. When I play Rubick I tend to feel that same; that I barely notice the HP gains because he's all around so squishy and that's WITH his passive and almost twice the amount of armor.
cant really compare with rubick because the way you play the heroes are so different. rubick needs mobility items so he can stay out of range of all the big spells so that he can steal them and re-engage instantly. skywrath mage wants to be spamming his arcanes late game like od, which requires you to be within reasonable distance of your opponent.
as people have said earlier, the regen isnt going to cut it for skywrath early game, and the cyclone, although it has its uses, doesnt synergise well with the hero itself at all. atos gives you some surviviability, a bigger mana pool and better arcane dmg. theres nothing wrong with getting mana regen from your 3rd item onwards, which would be hex in the case of skywrath mage.
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United States47024 Posts
You have 2 seconds between Bolts and Bolt is 800 range. That's definitely enough room to make use of mobility.
You're buying Force Staff, and by the time you're buying Eul's, the effect of the % regen is quite considerable already.
Eul's is fine as a second item, as is Atos--it depends a lot on the game. Even Force->straight Hex can be good if you're doing well enough to stand the gap in your items.
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How do you play vs Tinker mid as QoP? Laser has a bigger range than Scream/SS and its so painful.
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you have better attack than tinker, so abuse that. take all the last hits, land a hit or two on tinker if he comes within range. maybe get off a shadow strike but dont overextend. you also have the advantage in rune control, so you can harrass with scream, even if it means getting hit by a laser and then heal back up with runes. at lvl 6 you can just jump the guy with full hp, if you dealt some damage beforehand
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On April 27 2013 21:05 nonsequitur wrote:
How do you play vs Tinker mid as QoP? Laser has a bigger range than Scream/SS and its so painful.
You have to bully him early. Don't be afraid to blink scream shadowstrike. You also have every runes.
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why are last hits referred to as cs?
is it an acronym
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On April 27 2013 22:50 mizU wrote:
why are last hits referred to as cs?
is it an acronym
It's creep score. You used to have to enable the stat showing in dota1 by typing -cs, then it was changed to be on by default.
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ahhhh, so it's dota terminology!
thanks
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
On April 27 2013 22:55 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 22:50 mizU wrote:
why are last hits referred to as cs?
is it an acronym It's creep score. You used to have to enable the stat showing in dota1 by typing -cs, then it was changed to be on by default.
You're mixing it with -di, but yeah your answer is close enough
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On April 27 2013 23:26 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 22:55 Qbek wrote:On April 27 2013 22:50 mizU wrote:
why are last hits referred to as cs?
is it an acronym It's creep score. You used to have to enable the stat showing in dota1 by typing -cs, then it was changed to be on by default. You're mixing it with -di, but yeah your answer is close enough
The command was made on by default in like early 2010 And there was -cson too.
WHERE IS MY -WATER COLOR VOLVO
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Lalalaland34510 Posts
On April 28 2013 00:00 Qbek wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2013 23:26 Firebolt145 wrote:On April 27 2013 22:55 Qbek wrote:On April 27 2013 22:50 mizU wrote:
why are last hits referred to as cs?
is it an acronym It's creep score. You used to have to enable the stat showing in dota1 by typing -cs, then it was changed to be on by default. You're mixing it with -di, but yeah your answer is close enough The command was made on by default in like early 2010 And there was -cson too. WHERE IS MY -WATER COLOR VOLVO
-weather was a lot of fun too.
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EPT
