EPTSimple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 404
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nojok
France15846 Posts
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negon
212 Posts
However in order to have an impact on a lane you need understanding teammates who will help you set the ganks up, by letting the enemies push so you can come from behind, by initiating so you can get a sure Centaur stun off, by singlepulling before you come and push with three creeps etc. Also if the sidelane is hard to gank, try heading mid, oftentimes getting a kill there can help your mid win the lane and snowball. Bonus asshole points for using the Wildkin's tornado to follow the enemy mid, effectively ruining the lane for him. Tho that is more suited for Ench rather than Chen. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
On April 16 2013 18:54 Mr.Babo wrote: Every hero is 'one of the most popular heroes in dota', and that's only determined by the region in which said Dota is being played. Recently, more and more heroes have found their way into the meta, and that's only me talking about the last one week. You can go check the competitive scene and the lineups, and you'll notice the changing trends over the years. This version simply feels like any well thought-out lineup could win if executed correctly (which wasn't always the case). As far as your comment about icefrog not changing skillsets of popular heroes, I beg to differ. There are only 2 types of heroes that require changes to their skillset - The underplayed and the overplayed. Overplayed = too popular = imbalanced = nerfstick. I dont see how overplayed = too popular = imbalanced. | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
On April 16 2013 12:22 aintz wrote: let me ask you this: what do you see high level gamers get on am? o right a battlefury. hes like one of the only heroes where ppl dont deviate much in builds because theres a clear better option. now midas first before bf is fine. ppl do it all the time in pubs. So Midas -> BF is fine because people do it all the time in pubs but Midas -> Vlads -> Manta is super bad because 2009 believes it has a merit in certain situations? A build like this isn't inherently bad or good, all the builds mentioned have a specific goal. A Midas based build will always hit a peak earlier than a BF build and it will always farm slower when looking at timeframe post BF+Treads. Instead of BF+Treads you can have Treads, Midas, Vlads. The BF build needs at least 6k (Manta+Vit), more likely it will need 10k more gold (Manta+Heart) to effectively fight the enemy team. The Midas build needs 5k gold (Manta) to fight of which it gains almost half the needed gold from Midas procs within 10 minutes. Assuming at 15 minutes you have a)BF+Treads b)Treads+Vlads+Midas(assuming 8-9ish min Midas) The Midas build is already ahead about 2k gold of BF+Treads. Those translate into a faster Manta which translates into being able to fight before the vit booster gets crucial for not getting blown up. We now have a carry with 50% magic resist that's able to fight about 5-10 minutes earlier than the enemy team expects him to. That's a timeframe where the enemy team expected to be able to win tower fights 5v4. PS: The more pressure on AM early on the better build b) becomes. It's components are smaller, it can jungle earlier and it's slightly more robust against ganks. tl;dr: If you're against a team that has the goal of finishing the game before AM comes online it becomes a stupid decision to stick to the timing when they want AM to come online. | ||
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nojok
France15846 Posts
On April 17 2013 00:11 negon wrote: What? Troll's net or Centaur's stun are still a great addition to the lane's killing potential, regardless of the laners' levels. Chen ganking early on is all about creeps, not the damage you can get off with your nuke or your autoattack. However in order to have an impact on a lane you need understanding teammates who will help you set the ganks up, by letting the enemies push so you can come from behind, by initiating so you can get a sure Centaur stun off, by singlepulling before you come and push with three creeps etc. Also if the sidelane is hard to gank, try heading mid, oftentimes getting a kill there can help your mid win the lane and snowball. Bonus asshole points for using the Wildkin's tornado to follow the enemy mid, effectively ruining the lane for him. Tho that is more suited for Ench rather than Chen. Well mid had no CC & their mid was morph, also the cogs from clock makes it really hard to achieve something and I had terrible luck on camps. | ||
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aintz
Canada5624 Posts
On April 17 2013 02:36 r.Evo wrote: So Midas -> BF is fine because people do it all the time in pubs but Midas -> Vlads -> Manta is super bad because 2009 believes it has a merit in certain situations? A build like this isn't inherently bad or good, all the builds mentioned have a specific goal. A Midas based build will always hit a peak earlier than a BF build and it will always farm slower when looking at timeframe post BF+Treads. Instead of BF+Treads you can have Treads, Midas, Vlads. The BF build needs at least 6k (Manta+Vit), more likely it will need 10k more gold (Manta+Heart) to effectively fight the enemy team. The Midas build needs 5k gold (Manta) to fight of which it gains almost half the needed gold from Midas procs within 10 minutes. Assuming at 15 minutes you have a)BF+Treads b)Treads+Vlads+Midas(assuming 8-9ish min Midas) The Midas build is already ahead about 2k gold of BF+Treads. Those translate into a faster Manta which translates into being able to fight before the vit booster gets crucial for not getting blown up. We now have a carry with 50% magic resist that's able to fight about 5-10 minutes earlier than the enemy team expects him to. That's a timeframe where the enemy team expected to be able to win tower fights 5v4. PS: The more pressure on AM early on the better build b) becomes. It's components are smaller, it can jungle earlier and it's slightly more robust against ganks. tl;dr: If you're against a team that has the goal of finishing the game before AM comes online it becomes a stupid decision to stick to the timing when they want AM to come online. if the other team loses a 5v5 to the am with vlads and a midas they deserve to lose. and i love how you think you can jungle safely if you cant even farm in lane. i mean i would love argue with somebody whos actually good at the game and see what they say to counter my argument but its pointless to argue it any further on this forum. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8943 Posts
On April 17 2013 03:20 aintz wrote: if the other team loses a 5v5 to the am with vlads and a midas they deserve to lose. and i love how you think you can jungle safely if you cant even farm in lane. i mean i would love argue with somebody whos actually good at the game and see what they say to counter my argument but its pointless to argue it any further on this forum. i dont see why its so hard to believe that you can jungle safely? if there are enemies in lane harrassing you why does that mean you cant jungle? you have a vlads. | ||
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Ack1027
United States7873 Posts
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FinestHour
United States18466 Posts
On April 17 2013 03:45 evilfatsh1t wrote: i dont see why its so hard to believe that you can jungle safely? if there are enemies in lane harrassing you why does that mean you cant jungle? you have a vlads. aintz is one of the higher skill players in this forum, but the way he presented his argument was pretty aggressive and not really the best way to communicate but his point still stands if your safelane isnt safe, then what makes you think that your jungle is safe? sure against lower skill players they will just let you farm neuts cuz they didnt ward it or continue to take towers. but against any kind of competent team that knows how to press an advantage, it really isnt. it takes a few more seconds to walk through ur woods and a good team will have vision of you in your woods and makes sure that you're stuck in your base for the majority of the time | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
On April 17 2013 05:22 FinestHour wrote: aintz is one of the higher skill players in this forum, but the way he presented his argument was pretty aggressive and not really the best way to communicate but his point still stands if your safelane isnt safe, then what makes you think that your jungle is safe? sure against lower skill players they will just let you farm neuts cuz they didnt ward it or continue to take towers. but against any kind of competent team that knows how to press an advantage, it really isnt. it takes a few more seconds to walk through ur woods and a good team will have vision of you in your woods and makes sure that you're stuck in your base for the majority of the time In this scenario it's more about the timeframes though, it's not specifically about "can't enter lane or jungle anymore cause we're getting buttraped everywhere", it's about trying to hit a specific timing at which a BF build would be much weaker. A Midas build allows you to hit a peak with around ~10k gold in items, a farming build (this isn't just a case for BF on AM. Linkens/Radiance timings on other heroes work out similar) needs around 15k gold in items before it can fight because the "farming item" doesn't give many combat relevant stats when compared to possible alternatives. A significant advantage however in situations where you're rather under pressure (tough lane, enemy slightly ahead) is that a Midas gives you more gold than a farming item when you have less space to work with. | ||
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BurningSera
Ireland19621 Posts
Freefarming AM no doubt going bfury straight (with a QB), battle AM go Vit booster/Vangaurd+Yasha (watch that beautiful battle AM game from CStack with a DK in their team). SEA's AM loves to go Vlads where imo really is just a personal preference. Is all about the timing that you buy these items where it is situationally different in every game. As soon as you are not going for naked 30mins Bfury (where your team/tower dying left and right), just build something that can help in team fight, a good carry player knows how to build his hero considering in his farming capability and team line up. As far as pub goes, you can go midas+Bfury+BoT so you can farm every single creep on the map. Oh, as usual throwing in my steam guide here <3 no skill build because it is situational so feel free to use it for the listed items http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=128990291 | ||
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igotmyown
United States4291 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
On April 17 2013 10:18 igotmyown wrote: What does teleportation delay mean? AM has a .3 second cast point and it says he has a .4 second teleportation delay, so does that mean it takes him .7 seconds to blink? Asking because invoker coldsnap could always proc then, even at level 1, whereas if it's solely on cast point, he would need level 4 quas. Yup. Analogous QoPs blink has a 0.33 seconds teleportation delay and a general casting animation of 0.452. It's easiest to notice with Clockwerks battery assault (0.7s delay, 0.2s ministun ~ 0.5s where you can't do anything). - He prevents both AM (0.7s) and QoP (0.78s) from blinking away. | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8943 Posts
On April 17 2013 05:22 FinestHour wrote: aintz is one of the higher skill players in this forum, but the way he presented his argument was pretty aggressive and not really the best way to communicate but his point still stands if your safelane isnt safe, then what makes you think that your jungle is safe? sure against lower skill players they will just let you farm neuts cuz they didnt ward it or continue to take towers. but against any kind of competent team that knows how to press an advantage, it really isnt. it takes a few more seconds to walk through ur woods and a good team will have vision of you in your woods and makes sure that you're stuck in your base for the majority of the time if your jungle isnt safe for you to farm in 15mins in because they have that much of an advantage, its not because you picked the wrong item build, its because your team screwed up. and if you opted for bfury in these kinds of games youd lose anyway. but assuming your team is competent and didnt lose all their lanes, a realistic scenario could be am going up against some sort of ranged hero 1v1 or 1v2 and getting forced away from creeps. assuming your team is actually doing something, you should be able to rotate into the jungles without worrying that 4 heroes are going to pop up in your jungles to kill you. my point is, if you cant jungle with vlads 15mins in its not because you picked the wrong items. | ||
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Jay3llo
United States17 Posts
On August 17 2011 19:10 Ruscour wrote: [/i]Why was Tiny such a threat earlier in the game, and far less dangerous later? . because tiny is OP :D | ||
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LonelyCat
United Kingdom130 Posts
1) When I'm playing a battlefury-based carry and the lane isn't going great, is it still worth starting building bf? Normally if my lane is going fine i go boots->ring->bf->t2boots which I normally get bf up 16-19 mins without needing hero kills, and can farm well after. Occasionally I switch ring before boots if I have the gold and feel like I want an easier time staying in lane. If I have the ring should I always go to bf even if I feel I won't get it pre-25 mins (I think no) or should I switch to something else and keep the roh? 2) What should I do to get xp in the midgame on a support hero. I feel like I know how to ward, help out in lane (mostly) etc. but as my friends mostly want me to play carry I get stuck what I should be doing on supports when I'm normally flash farming etc. on a carry? I normally end up horribly underleveled and lacking any gold (e.g.http://dotabuff.com/matches/167919928 , I'm venge, last time I played a decent level game as support) though I can't get a feel if thats normal when hard supporting at my level? | ||
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evilfatsh1t
Australia8943 Posts
On April 17 2013 21:04 LonelyCat wrote: I have 2 (hopefully) simple questions: 1) When I'm playing a battlefury-based carry and the lane isn't going great, is it still worth starting building bf? Normally if my lane is going fine i go boots->ring->bf->t2boots which I normally get bf up 16-19 mins without needing hero kills, and can farm well after. Occasionally I switch ring before boots if I have the gold and feel like I want an easier time staying in lane. If I have the ring should I always go to bf even if I feel I won't get it pre-25 mins (I think no) or should I switch to something else and keep the roh? 2) What should I do to get xp in the midgame on a support hero. I feel like I know how to ward, help out in lane (mostly) etc. but as my friends mostly want me to play carry I get stuck what I should be doing on supports when I'm normally flash farming etc. on a carry? I normally end up horribly underleveled and lacking any gold (e.g.http://dotabuff.com/matches/167919928 , I'm venge, last time I played a decent level game as support) though I can't get a feel if thats normal when hard supporting at my level? 1. depends on the heroes in the game. if you know that you will definitely win if it goes to late game, and you have the heroes that can allow you to turtle to late game, then you can still try and go bfury (im assuming youre talking about am or void). if you think itll be hard to turtle to late game unless you get your items out quicker, dont get bfury if youre struggling. or if you think you can take it late but they also have a hard carry, dont get bfury. 2. supports mid game get most of their exp from fights. make sure youre in every fight, rack up the assists and dont die. this is where its hard for inexperienced players, because they lack the positioning to actually stay alive in fights, but if you concentrate on staying out of aoe spell ranges as much as possible, while landing your spells and some potshots if you can, you shouldnt die that much. a lot of people seem to think that its ok for the ward bitch to end up with a score of like 2-10-x. its not. its normal for the hard support to be underlvled and underfarmed in comparison to the carries/mid etc. but that doesnt mean you should be giving up everything for them. pretty much take on the mindset of a carry and look for farm, but only if you know no one else can get it and if there arent more important things to do (fight,ward,babysit). OR. if youre feeling confident you can always get a midas lol | ||
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
On April 17 2013 21:04 LonelyCat wrote: I have 2 (hopefully) simple questions: 1) When I'm playing a battlefury-based carry and the lane isn't going great, is it still worth starting building bf? Normally if my lane is going fine i go boots->ring->bf->t2boots which I normally get bf up 16-19 mins without needing hero kills, and can farm well after. Occasionally I switch ring before boots if I have the gold and feel like I want an easier time staying in lane. If I have the ring should I always go to bf even if I feel I won't get it pre-25 mins (I think no) or should I switch to something else and keep the roh? 2) What should I do to get xp in the midgame on a support hero. I feel like I know how to ward, help out in lane (mostly) etc. but as my friends mostly want me to play carry I get stuck what I should be doing on supports when I'm normally flash farming etc. on a carry? I normally end up horribly underleveled and lacking any gold (e.g.http://dotabuff.com/matches/167919928 , I'm venge, last time I played a decent level game as support) though I can't get a feel if thats normal when hard supporting at my level? 1) In most cases by the time you have ~1k gold in lane you can judge if things are going downhill quickly or not. If they are things like Tranquils become your best buddies but if you already committed to the RoH it's usually best to stick with the BF build (unless you can keep the RoH for a Pipe later on on guys like Alchemist). Check a bit earlier in this thread for some math for a Midas AM example earlier. 2) Don't die. By merely staying alive in a teamfight you get lots and lots of XP. Besides that a lot of supports (e.g. Lina/Lesh) can clear jungle stacks they set up during laning reasonably fast - if you're on someone like Venge however you have to rely on a strong laning phase (use them smokes!) and on not dieing in teamfights. Being an underleveled VS is one of the worst possible scenarios though. =P | ||
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Joni_
Germany355 Posts
On April 17 2013 21:04 LonelyCat wrote: I have 2 (hopefully) simple questions: 1) When I'm playing a battlefury-based carry and the lane isn't going great, is it still worth starting building bf? Normally if my lane is going fine i go boots->ring->bf->t2boots which I normally get bf up 16-19 mins without needing hero kills, and can farm well after. Occasionally I switch ring before boots if I have the gold and feel like I want an easier time staying in lane. If I have the ring should I always go to bf even if I feel I won't get it pre-25 mins (I think no) or should I switch to something else and keep the roh? 2) What should I do to get xp in the midgame on a support hero. I feel like I know how to ward, help out in lane (mostly) etc. but as my friends mostly want me to play carry I get stuck what I should be doing on supports when I'm normally flash farming etc. on a carry? I normally end up horribly underleveled and lacking any gold (e.g.http://dotabuff.com/matches/167919928 , I'm venge, last time I played a decent level game as support) though I can't get a feel if thats normal when hard supporting at my level? 1. If your lane is going fine you should have your BF way before the 16-19 minute mark if you go upgraded boots afterwards. It really all depends on wether you think you'll be able to flashfarm. BF is also great if you have a split pushing hero like AM and can farm lane+jungle with it. If if does not actually generate you any additional farm through farming speed, it is not a good choice in almost all cases. 2. Hard supports will be underleveled if the game isn't going extremely well in your favour. Your job will be to set up ganks and pushs, ward, antiward and do whatever is necessary to secure your carries farm (e.g. stacking jungle camps, babysitting, afking behind them). Being underleveled is fine, you will have to learn to make up for your lack of level and items by positioning yourself smartly so that you DONT DIE. If you are underleveled a single teamfight that you win and survive will grant you a whole lot of lvls. This is by far the most important part. Again: Don't die. Really, don't. Most Supportplayers have extremely good positioning if they are experienced on their hero. If you feel like your carries are doing fine, wards are up etc you can and should stack jungle creeps for your carries to farm and stay around to leech XP. | ||
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eu.exodus
South Africa1186 Posts
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