On April 16 2013 08:14 MSGHero wrote: Are there any other builds to AM besides battlefury? I don't mean buildup like a midas or vanguard, but like a completely different item. Like how void can go mom or maelstrom instead of a bfury to be useful earlier on in fights.
am kinda needs bf to flash farm and get big. i mean you can fight somewhat but that kinda not what hes meant to do.
Obviously you don't WANT to have to build other things, Bfury->farm to 3rd item is what you want to do, but there are games that simply demand earlier presence, and for those, there are alternatives.
Tranquil+Midas->Treads+Vlad's+Manta is a route of development that PIS did in a DCG semi-pro tournament match, and 2009 did a video talking through that build (incidentally, that video is also the first time I remember seeing YYF playing Phase->Drums Lifestealer in DotA 1 pubs). It farms slower in the long run, but it's aimed at high jungling effectiveness from the 10-15 mark and hitting it's stride earlier than a Battle Fury based build.
The old Vanguard->Manta build from pre-6.73 is also still playable, but it's not as good as it used to be. Some games require it though, and it's been seen particularly against strong gankers that would suppress your ability to farm with a Battle Fury.
Every item choice is situational in this game. Obviously what he did in one game isn't applicable all the time, but knowing the option exists and learning when to apply it is important, as opposed to just blindly going with the mindset of "AM wants to go Battle fury every game".
And 09 did a talkthrough of why the build is suitable for pubs, and not just a one-off gimmick.
people dont go bf for 2 reasons: 1. they are bored want to try something else (why not play another hero) 2. the game is hard and it is very difficult to farm
so please explain to me how he plans to get a midas up fast enough into vlads if he cant even farm in the lane? if anything that build is more awful than getting a vanguard and just teamfighting.
On April 16 2013 08:36 LeLoup wrote: Not 100% sure about the interaction on this, so figured I'd ask for sure here.
When you enfeeble CK pre split, do his illusions carry over the -damage or are they not affected by enfeeble?
I'm pretty sure that they don't because illusions only carry over stats (right?) not +damage.
Just like using Manta, Phantasm will dispel the enfeeble so none of them will have it.
I'm 90% sure you're wrong on this considering the 6.75 patch that made it unable to be dispelled by BKB or purged, but it's been too long since I've played Bane vs an illusion hero personally to know for sure.
On April 16 2013 08:36 LeLoup wrote: Not 100% sure about the interaction on this, so figured I'd ask for sure here.
When you enfeeble CK pre split, do his illusions carry over the -damage or are they not affected by enfeeble?
I'm pretty sure that they don't because illusions only carry over stats (right?) not +damage.
Just like using Manta, Phantasm will dispel the enfeeble so none of them will have it.
I'm 90% sure you're wrong on this considering the 6.75 patch that made it unable to be dispelled by BKB or purged, but it's been too long since I've played Bane vs an illusion hero personally to know for sure.
Illusion abilities dispelling is unrelated to purge or magic immunity, but I will doublecheck it.
It does remain on the original CK. The changelog also specifically states that manta cannot dispel it which explains why it is the case.
Enfeeble can no longer be dispelled By Manta, BKB or any other dispel
On April 16 2013 08:36 LeLoup wrote: Not 100% sure about the interaction on this, so figured I'd ask for sure here.
When you enfeeble CK pre split, do his illusions carry over the -damage or are they not affected by enfeeble?
I'm pretty sure that they don't because illusions only carry over stats (right?) not +damage.
Just like using Manta, Phantasm will dispel the enfeeble so none of them will have it.
I'm 90% sure you're wrong on this considering the 6.75 patch that made it unable to be dispelled by BKB or purged, but it's been too long since I've played Bane vs an illusion hero personally to know for sure.
Illusion abilities dispelling is unrelated to purge or magic immunity, but I will doublecheck it.
It does remain on the original CK. The changelog also specifically states that manta cannot dispel it which explains why it is the case.
Enfeeble can no longer be dispelled By Manta, BKB or any other dispel
Yes, but my question was does the interaction for the - damage effect of enfeeble interact the same way as a + damage item, or do the illusions also get the - damage buff?
On April 16 2013 09:40 aintz wrote: people dont go bf for 2 reasons: 1. they are bored want to try something else (why not play another hero) 2. the game is hard and it is very difficult to farm
so please explain to me how he plans to get a midas up fast enough into vlads if he cant even farm in the lane? if anything that build is more awful than getting a vanguard and just teamfighting.
A lot of games are passive until mid gets level 6, then it becomes very dangerous. You can get midas way before that, but not battlefury.
On April 16 2013 08:36 LeLoup wrote: Not 100% sure about the interaction on this, so figured I'd ask for sure here.
When you enfeeble CK pre split, do his illusions carry over the -damage or are they not affected by enfeeble?
I'm pretty sure that they don't because illusions only carry over stats (right?) not +damage.
Just like using Manta, Phantasm will dispel the enfeeble so none of them will have it.
I'm 90% sure you're wrong on this considering the 6.75 patch that made it unable to be dispelled by BKB or purged, but it's been too long since I've played Bane vs an illusion hero personally to know for sure.
Illusion abilities dispelling is unrelated to purge or magic immunity, but I will doublecheck it.
It does remain on the original CK. The changelog also specifically states that manta cannot dispel it which explains why it is the case.
Enfeeble can no longer be dispelled By Manta, BKB or any other dispel
Yes, but my question was does the interaction for the - damage effect of enfeeble interact the same way as a + damage item, or do the illusions also get the - damage buff?
You don't pass on debuffs to your illusions when you split. The illusions are indeed not affected by enfeeble if bane casts it on them though.
On April 16 2013 09:40 aintz wrote: people dont go bf for 2 reasons: 1. they are bored want to try something else (why not play another hero) 2. the game is hard and it is very difficult to farm
so please explain to me how he plans to get a midas up fast enough into vlads if he cant even farm in the lane? if anything that build is more awful than getting a vanguard and just teamfighting.
A lot of games are passive until mid gets level 6, then it becomes very dangerous. You can get midas way before that, but not battlefury.
if he really thinks 1 single mid hero has that much impact on the game then he is delusional. ive never seen a single am go midas first without getting a subsequent bf. o wait i've never even seen a single am win a game without bf either.
let me ask you this: what do you see high level gamers get on am? o right a battlefury. hes like one of the only heroes where ppl dont deviate much in builds because theres a clear better option.
now midas first before bf is fine. ppl do it all the time in pubs.
The vlad route is the alternative to BF. When you want to fight or push early and BF gives nothing for you. When you pick AM to make the opponent think something will happen when you are going for something else.
I feel like Antimage needs a change in spells to make him more versatile. The more changes the game undergoes, the more versatile heroes are becoming, even in terms of just pure stats. Even though a hero specializes in certain things, sure doesn't mean that he can't be played in another way.
Every hero is 'one of the most popular heroes in dota', and that's only determined by the region in which said Dota is being played. Recently, more and more heroes have found their way into the meta, and that's only me talking about the last one week. You can go check the competitive scene and the lineups, and you'll notice the changing trends over the years. This version simply feels like any well thought-out lineup could win if executed correctly (which wasn't always the case).
As far as your comment about icefrog not changing skillsets of popular heroes, I beg to differ. There are only 2 types of heroes that require changes to their skillset - The underplayed and the overplayed. Overplayed = too popular = imbalanced = nerfstick.
On April 16 2013 18:54 Mr.Babo wrote: Every hero is 'one of the most popular heroes in dota', and that's only determined by the region in which said Dota is being played. Recently, more and more heroes have found their way into the meta, and that's only me talking about the last one week. You can go check the competitive scene and the lineups, and you'll notice the changing trends over the years. This version simply feels like any well thought-out lineup could win if executed correctly (which wasn't always the case).
As far as your comment about icefrog not changing skillsets of popular heroes, I beg to differ. There are only 2 types of heroes that require changes to their skillset - The underplayed and the overplayed. Overplayed = too popular = imbalanced = nerfstick.
youre not asking for a nerf to make him "more versatile" youre talking about completely change 1 or more skills. it wont happen. and no, every hero isnt the most popular in dota. you dont see players rushing to pick visage or chen or something. am has been in dota longer than most people have played dota. unless he miraculously falls out of fashion theres no way icefrog will change him. another example of this is cm. shes been in dota forever and over the years icefrog has barely changed her (not including buffs/nerfs), and that was cause new support heroes were starting to overshadow her
Just get the vitbooster+stick before Battle Fury on AM if you need to participate early on. You will almost always want HoT as your 3rd major item any way.
EPT
