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On March 28 2013 03:05 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 02:07 TheYango wrote:On March 28 2013 02:05 Comeh wrote:
Welcome to lower level CM games. It took me awhile before I played with good enough supports that bought sentries. I was bad. I mean if you're queuing solo, I understand the idiocy/selfishness, but he's 5-stacking with friends. If your friends are playing support on that low a level, then it's not even worth playing 3-1-1 lanes because supports on that level don't actually know how to play trilanes properly. And if your supports aren't making efficient use of their time in a trilane, then you're just better off playing 2-1-2 lanes. Well, to be honest, you don't magically get better at trilaning. You have to have knowledge, yes, know how to run it, but it definitely takes practice on how to execute trilanes well. So saying "its not worth it" isn't necessarily true if your end goal is to get better.
True, but getting basics then learning to trilane is much more efficient. You at least need to be able to see what you did wrong to get better.
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On March 27 2013 22:34 aintz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 15:49 Dead9 wrote:
what does warding the pull even accomplish? it's not like you're going to be able to actually control the wave if they're even semi-competent, and if they're bad warding the pull isn't going to do much anyway
two wards on the safe lane makes it pretty much ungankable, and if you have a stronger lane it makes the lane super ez
i mean you can start with 4 wards but that's expensive and you'll only have 2 forever after that
edit: basically 2 wards on the ez lane is pretty much always more useful than two wards on the hard lane assuming you're a solo offlane a. pulling gives them even more lane control and the likelihood of you getting levels is even less b. pulling gives supports levels and gold which they otherwise wouldnt get c. you would be suprised how many morons on front page games doesnt know how to static lane d. people ward the safelane because they want to be more aggressive and its not for safety reasons e. if you feel your safelane can be aggressive and get kills why wouldnt you buy addition wards in order to do so
stacking and pulling doesnt always get you money, and straight up double pulling is hard and rarer
youd also be surprised how many players dont know how to pull properly
the wards on the safe lane do both. it makes your safe lane ungankable without smokes, plus it makes it much easier to control the enemy offlaner(s)
the two wards on the safe lane are much more important than the two on the hard lane. i suppose you can get both if you can talk your supports into it, but if they counterward you just wasted a ward cd for pretty much nothing
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On March 28 2013 04:24 Dead9 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 22:34 aintz wrote:On March 27 2013 15:49 Dead9 wrote:
what does warding the pull even accomplish? it's not like you're going to be able to actually control the wave if they're even semi-competent, and if they're bad warding the pull isn't going to do much anyway
two wards on the safe lane makes it pretty much ungankable, and if you have a stronger lane it makes the lane super ez
i mean you can start with 4 wards but that's expensive and you'll only have 2 forever after that
edit: basically 2 wards on the ez lane is pretty much always more useful than two wards on the hard lane assuming you're a solo offlane a. pulling gives them even more lane control and the likelihood of you getting levels is even less b. pulling gives supports levels and gold which they otherwise wouldnt get c. you would be suprised how many morons on front page games doesnt know how to static lane d. people ward the safelane because they want to be more aggressive and its not for safety reasons e. if you feel your safelane can be aggressive and get kills why wouldnt you buy addition wards in order to do so stacking and pulling doesnt always get you money, and straight up double pulling is hard and rarer youd also be surprised how many players dont know how to pull properly the wards on the safe lane do both. it makes your safe lane ungankable without smokes, plus it makes it much easier to control the enemy offlaner(s) the two wards on the safe lane are much more important than the two on the hard lane. i suppose you can get both if you can talk your supports into it, but if they counterward you just wasted a ward cd for pretty much nothing
So many dota discussions are between people who aren't playing the same game.
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
With regards to trilaning: from my experience, asking new players to trilane is asking for bad things to happen. While it is strong when used properly, more often than not you will end up with 3 people constantly in the lane, not achieving anything while losing XP. Your suicide laner will also often end up underfarmed since, well, 1v2. It is much safer to just stick to 2-1-2 when playing with people who are still learning the basics of the game.
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On March 28 2013 02:07 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 02:05 Comeh wrote:
Welcome to lower level CM games. It took me awhile before I played with good enough supports that bought sentries. I was bad. I mean if you're queuing solo, I understand the idiocy/selfishness, but he's 5-stacking with friends. If your friends are playing support on that low a level, then it's not even worth playing 3-1-1 lanes because supports on that level don't actually know how to play trilanes properly. And if your supports aren't making efficient use of their time in a trilane, then you're just better off playing 2-1-2 lanes.
Yeah we're stacking with 5 friends, but some of us are somewhat new to the game and others really have no big interest in getting better. I myself only started playing dota 2 months ago yet I've played more games then some of the people I play with. Lately we've assigned players to buy wards and couriers at the start of the game. Before that it wasn't uncommon to start with either no wards, or worse, no courier. Even still, some games it still takes 8 minutes before the courier is upgraded, usually when our mid player asks for it the 3rd time. One example I can give you is that one of our players almost always starts with a Tango and Ring of Regen, never with Branches, and sometimes goes the entire game without getting wards and rushing straight for boots>arcane boots>aghanims.
That said, on our level we always trilane unless we have a jungler. The same goes for the enemy team. It's never a 2-1-2 lane. Aggressive trilanes are also really rare. I'm not sure why this is always the case, maybe because this is how the pro's play?
Seeing as we always trilane as well, should we lane 2-1-2 instead? Usually I'm on the offlane and more often than not I tend to do pretty well, mostly playing as kotl/dark seer/windrunner/tide hunter. Because my opponents can't lane control properly I always get exp and, depending on the hero, some farm as well. What should our trilane try to do to make it more effective? Stack and pull + harass the offlaner out of exp range? Or is it better to double pull and let 1 support roam around the map? One thing I've noticed is that it's hard to stop the opposing trilane from getting freefarm as a solo offlane. Especially as kotl, my latest flavor of the week, it's hard to really get ganks going when I'm solo vs 3 and I have no reliable stun. Any quick tips on how to play this out better?
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On March 28 2013 02:34 TheYango wrote:The faulty assumption is that an off-lane solo levels faster than an off-lane duo which is not always necessarily the case depending on the strength of their safe lane duo/tri. If your supports don't manage their development well, having underleveled supports hurts really bad midgame. Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 02:23 Logo wrote:The other team is going to be equally as bad at taking advantage of your improperly played trilane. Pretty much any 2v1 can keep the off-laner in the state of "can get XP but can't get lasthits". If the 2nd support isn't either guaranteeing the enemy off-laner being zero XP or repeatedly killing their off-laner, what is the 2nd support doing? There's nothing for the enemy off-laner to be "bad at taking advantage of" other than getting XP and not dying.
It's an assumption, but I state it as such. If you can't run an offlane where they can handle the 2v1 or at least get experience in that situation then the trilane isn't going to work.
The second support ends up still helping the carry get farm & safety which in a low level game can be enough for that carry to snowball later on.
Of course overall your mileage is going to vary. I just know in my experience my lower skilled group has had reasonable success even with weakly played trilanes. The offlane and mid will win/draw (generally) and the early farm on a carry who otherwise isn't great at sustaining mid-game farm (a common problem I notice in lower level players) helps carry him through the mid game into a stronger late game. The supports generally make up for their lower levels with ganks and teamfights, but pulling does also help a lot here. Often times having the second support in a 2-1-2 where that second support is a weaker player provides nothing at all. They generally don't help the offlaner (say someone like tide) farm/xp any better while having them down in a tri means the 2 weaker supports are still combined strong enough to help a carry last hit or score some ganks.
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On March 28 2013 04:24 Dead9 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 22:34 aintz wrote:On March 27 2013 15:49 Dead9 wrote:
what does warding the pull even accomplish? it's not like you're going to be able to actually control the wave if they're even semi-competent, and if they're bad warding the pull isn't going to do much anyway
two wards on the safe lane makes it pretty much ungankable, and if you have a stronger lane it makes the lane super ez
i mean you can start with 4 wards but that's expensive and you'll only have 2 forever after that
edit: basically 2 wards on the ez lane is pretty much always more useful than two wards on the hard lane assuming you're a solo offlane a. pulling gives them even more lane control and the likelihood of you getting levels is even less b. pulling gives supports levels and gold which they otherwise wouldnt get c. you would be suprised how many morons on front page games doesnt know how to static lane d. people ward the safelane because they want to be more aggressive and its not for safety reasons e. if you feel your safelane can be aggressive and get kills why wouldnt you buy addition wards in order to do so stacking and pulling doesnt always get you money, and straight up double pulling is hard and rarer youd also be surprised how many players dont know how to pull properly the wards on the safe lane do both. it makes your safe lane ungankable without smokes, plus it makes it much easier to control the enemy offlaner(s) the two wards on the safe lane are much more important than the two on the hard lane. i suppose you can get both if you can talk your supports into it, but if they counterward you just wasted a ward cd for pretty much nothing
this is a thread for newer players to ask question on how to improve their game, and as an inexperience player yourself, you really shouldnt be given out answers that make no sense what so ever.
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you can't honestly believe that two wards for a solo hard laner are more useful than two on the safe lane
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how to play Bristleback when enemy buy magic stick?
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On March 28 2013 18:33 Garnet wrote:
how to play Bristleback when enemy buy magic stick?
in Dota1 ?
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shh u cant tell everyone the best counter to him in lane is a 200 g item
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It's not unless you spam Quill for some reason.
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nvm i don't see the patch when i answered 
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On March 28 2013 11:47 Dead9 wrote:
you can't honestly believe that two wards for a solo hard laner are more useful than two on the safe lane
Don't think he meant that. The lane ward in safe lane is generally so you don't waste time trying to push someone out of lane that isn't there. Sure it might help defensively but usually that isn't the case. Normally I say always ward against their trilane(Rune spot type ward) and ward safe lane. If you only get two that is. Your own supports should be able to contest your rune spot so only need vision of theirs.
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On March 28 2013 18:33 Garnet wrote:
how to play Bristleback when enemy buy magic stick?
only spam your spells when you know you can kill. its quite easily to kill with that hero early on with the help of another hero, like a veno. goo + gale is like wtfbbq im fucked.
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Yah, 10 charge magic stick is still only 1 quill spray if you get enough stacks on them.
PS: BB loves CM on his team, for obvious reasons. They lane together pretty well.
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When did normal laning turn from 2 people in the middle to one person?
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On March 29 2013 01:42 AirbladeOrange wrote:
When did normal laning turn from 2 people in the middle to one person?
?
When was normal laning ever dual mid? Okay for a VERY short period to counter trilanes people ran 2-2-1 but thats never been good has it?
At least, no time in the last ~2 or more years has 2 people mid been good.
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On March 28 2013 18:33 Garnet wrote:
how to play Bristleback when enemy buy magic stick?
lol that's the exact item that killed the popularity of that hero in pub xD
And for legit answer, get a furi in team to snipe their cour over and over again and hope to delay the oppo get it before you own his ass.
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
On March 29 2013 01:42 AirbladeOrange wrote:
When did normal laning turn from 2 people in the middle to one person?
Dual laning mid has always been 'unusual', to trick the opposing team, rather than the norm.
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EPT
