|
United States47024 Posts
On March 27 2013 10:01 aintz wrote:
always worth it to ward enemy pulls especially in pubs. the other team arent gonna counter 2sets of obs before the cooldown.
you do not run into obs cooldown issue until midgame and thats when all the ward fighting occurs anyways.
Are you using both wards to block their pull and not any to watch river/rune?
|
1 pull ward 1 rune ward (1 set of wards is 2 ward, you start with 2sets and the cd goes off when you purchase 1). warding early in pubs is safe 99.99% of the time and they wont see where you've played the wards so it will be harder to counter.
|
On March 27 2013 02:36 TheYango wrote:
RoB is ok if you're playing the style of Furion that leaves Treants at rank 2 and maxes teleport first (ganks harder, but farms slower and delays your rank 4 Treant pushing). If you play the normal style with max Treants first, it's unnecessary.
It's not common these days because in competitive games people value the earlier pushing power on Furion very highly, but in pubs, enemies often overextend often enough for you to really abuse a shorter CD teleport (most pub Furions just like being able to farm faster rather than ganking more often, though).
I don't really understand this. Wouldn't armor and more treants be even better?
Also basilius saves on clarity cost.
|
what does warding the pull even accomplish? it's not like you're going to be able to actually control the wave if they're even semi-competent, and if they're bad warding the pull isn't going to do much anyway
two wards on the safe lane makes it pretty much ungankable, and if you have a stronger lane it makes the lane super ez
i mean you can start with 4 wards but that's expensive and you'll only have 2 forever after that
edit: basically 2 wards on the ez lane is pretty much always more useful than two wards on the hard lane assuming you're a solo offlane
|
The supports get 0 gold, no extra xp, they don't deny you gold. And if they really want to try to deny you xp from the wave itself, they have to waste time camping you.
|
I can't speak for the rest, but when I play captainsmode with friends the chances of the enemy team stacking and pulling are a lot higher then them buying sentry wards. The same goes for my own team. We usually stack and pull, but we almost never buy sentry wards. Mostly because the opposing team usually doesn't ward our camp. When they do though, it's always a pain.
That said, warding the pull camp isn't worth it in pubs unless your at a high matchmaking. Often times the creepwave will push, even if they opposing team isn't 'trying' to auto-attack.
|
On March 27 2013 12:53 aintz wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 10:27 Dead9 wrote:
why wouldn't they? either way unless their dual/tri lane is awful you're not gonna be able to control the lane anyway
besides that having 3~4 wards for the whole night is really nice i hear sents arent 200 per set and supports poop money out of their asses.
The cost for dewarding a pullcamp is much lower than the benefit you gain (both in gold and in xp) from being able to pull.
In general though I think precisely because so many support players seem oblivious to said concept that warding pulls should almost always be considered. A monkey could stack a camp and pull the stack, forcing you to make a decision about what to do now. By warding the pullcamp you put the ball in the enemies court. From not buying sentries, wasting them in bad spots all the way to blocking their own camp with the sentry, allowing the enemy to make non-optimal decisions is always a good thing.
Paying 150 gold to win a lane straight up if my enemy doesn't know how to play optimally? Yespls.
|
On March 27 2013 15:49 Dead9 wrote:
what does warding the pull even accomplish? it's not like you're going to be able to actually control the wave if they're even semi-competent, and if they're bad warding the pull isn't going to do much anyway
two wards on the safe lane makes it pretty much ungankable, and if you have a stronger lane it makes the lane super ez
i mean you can start with 4 wards but that's expensive and you'll only have 2 forever after that
edit: basically 2 wards on the ez lane is pretty much always more useful than two wards on the hard lane assuming you're a solo offlane
a. pulling gives them even more lane control and the likelihood of you getting levels is even less
b. pulling gives supports levels and gold which they otherwise wouldnt get
c. you would be suprised how many morons on front page games doesnt know how to static lane
d. people ward the safelane because they want to be more aggressive and its not for safety reasons
e. if you feel your safelane can be aggressive and get kills why wouldnt you buy addition wards in order to do so
|
What is the best way to play against a heavy pusher lineup? (Furion, DP, Jug, Lesh with multiples of them being on the same team)?
It's extremely annoying and incredibly frustrating/rage-inducing to play against these lineups. They don't do shit but push all game and eventually the pressure gets so much that you lose the game. I don't want to take this shit anymore so I need some help guys. Any tips?
|
If they are 5-manning all game then you need to kinda play 4+1 with a split-pushing carry like AM just farming as fast as they can and punishing your opponents who are all splitting farm. The other 4 delay pushes with abilities but don't engage unless they know they can win. Basically get and abuse an experience advantage from them grouping up so much (and if you can, try to maintain some tower equality by having that 1 hero push other lanes hard). Keep up lots of defensive wards so that you can respond to their movements.
If they are split pushing constantly (usually the case with a Nature's Prophet) you need a way to engage them. Split push is very strong, and hard to play against when properly executed. You need stuff like blink+sheep to catch the split pusher and nuke them down. Basically what you want to do is gank them. Also keep in mind that if they are split pushing it may be possible for you to team-push a tower really fast then TP back to save your own, which is a win overall.
|
Get the good hero !
There is some really good antipushing heros like :
Gyro (flak cannon)
Pugna (imba AOE short cooldown)
Venomancer (ward your tower)
Tinker (March of the machiiiine)
When i'm writng this i realize that all pusher heros are good too for antipush :D WELL PLAYED SHERLOCK
There is another option too . All Heavy-Pusher heroes are low hp. Just gank them with a random invis hero (riki gondar etc)
|
Play someone with a good counter push like windrunner, kotl, DP, or beastmaster who can clear creep waves easily from a safe distance.
When i'm writng this i realize that all pusher heros are good too for antipush :D WELL PLAYED SHERLOCK
Not always, heroes like Pugna can stop a push sometimes, but if it's a strong push with multiple heroes he risks getting ganked while doing so. Heroes with long range abilities can counter-pushes without exposing themselves to ganks. There are also heroes like broodmother or pl who are better pushers than counter-pushers.
|
yeah you are right but what i'm saying is true in 90% case.
MEH.
|
Thanks for responses, it was a pub game so our team was pretty much terrible against the pushing strat I guess...Warlock, Invoker, Windrunner, Faceless Void and Enchantress against Death Prophet, Furion, Juggernaut, Clockwerk and Crystal Maiden. They kept pushing all the time and avoided teamfights, we managed to take a couple teamfights but we couldn't really push out to take towers because our lanes were always so pushed. We lost all outer towers by 20min, it was so annoying to play against.
|
United States47024 Posts
On March 27 2013 20:05 r.Evo wrote:
Paying 150 gold to win a lane straight up if my enemy doesn't know how to play optimally? Yespls.
It goes the other way too though. There are a lot of situations where pulling is actually the WRONG play because your duo isn't actually strong enough to control the pull and it's better for your support to focus on keeping the off-laner down. So in this case, warding the pull forces the enemy into making the right play of supporting his carry on lane when if you didn't ward the pull, many pub supports would just ditch their carry and pull rather than helping out on lane.
There was a game last night that Winter got a 4 minute level 6 because the enemy support pulled rather than properly trying to zone him off creeps and Winter just walked over and farmed his pull and got both the neutrals and the lane creeps.
On March 27 2013 18:19 Gotuso wrote:
I can't speak for the rest, but when I play captainsmode with friends the chances of the enemy team stacking and pulling are a lot higher then them buying sentry wards. The same goes for my own team. We usually stack and pull, but we almost never buy sentry wards. Mostly because the opposing team usually doesn't ward our camp. When they do though, it's always a pain.
That said, warding the pull camp isn't worth it in pubs unless your at a high matchmaking. Often times the creepwave will push, even if they opposing team isn't 'trying' to auto-attack.
What the hell items are your supports starting with if they don't have at least 1 set of sentries between the two of them?
In solo MM, I can understand supports being selfish, but if you're playing 5-stack -CM, there's honestly no alternative that is really better than starting with at least 1 set of sentries. What are you going to do, start with a Gauntlet or Circlet?
|
On March 28 2013 01:58 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 20:05 r.Evo wrote:
Paying 150 gold to win a lane straight up if my enemy doesn't know how to play optimally? Yespls. It goes the other way too though. There are a lot of situations where pulling is actually the WRONG play because your duo isn't actually strong enough to control the pull and it's better for your support to focus on keeping the off-laner down. So in this case, warding the pull forces the enemy into making the right play of supporting his carry on lane when if you didn't ward the pull, many pub supports would just ditch their carry and pull rather than helping out on lane. There was a game last night that Winter got a 4 minute level 6 because the enemy support pulled rather than properly trying to zone him off creeps and Winter just walked over and farmed his pull and got both the neutrals and the lane creeps. Show nested quote +On March 27 2013 18:19 Gotuso wrote:
I can't speak for the rest, but when I play captainsmode with friends the chances of the enemy team stacking and pulling are a lot higher then them buying sentry wards. The same goes for my own team. We usually stack and pull, but we almost never buy sentry wards. Mostly because the opposing team usually doesn't ward our camp. When they do though, it's always a pain.
That said, warding the pull camp isn't worth it in pubs unless your at a high matchmaking. Often times the creepwave will push, even if they opposing team isn't 'trying' to auto-attack. What the hell items are your supports starting with if they don't have at least 1 set of sentries between the two of them? In solo MM, I can understand supports being selfish, but if you're playing 5-stack -CM, there's honestly no alternative that is really better than starting with at least 1 set of sentries. What are you going to do, start with a Gauntlet or Circlet?
Welcome to lower level CM games. It took me awhile before I played with good enough supports that bought sentries. I was bad.
|
United States47024 Posts
On March 28 2013 02:05 Comeh wrote:
Welcome to lower level CM games. It took me awhile before I played with good enough supports that bought sentries. I was bad.
I mean if you're queuing solo, I understand the idiocy/selfishness, but he's 5-stacking with friends.
If your friends are playing support on that low a level, then it's not even worth playing 3-1-1 lanes because supports on that level don't actually know how to play trilanes properly. And if your supports aren't making efficient use of their time in a trilane, then you're just better off playing 2-1-2 lanes.
|
On March 28 2013 02:07 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 02:05 Comeh wrote:
Welcome to lower level CM games. It took me awhile before I played with good enough supports that bought sentries. I was bad. I mean if you're queuing solo, I understand the idiocy/selfishness, but he's 5-stacking with friends. If your friends are playing support on that low a level, then it's not even worth playing 3-1-1 lanes because supports on that level don't actually know how to play trilanes properly. And if your supports aren't making efficient use of their time in a trilane, then you're just better off playing 2-1-2 lanes.
Eh not always... so long as your supports don't die and don't steal last hits it can still work out really well. Having an offlaner and a solo mid with a level advantage means you can get a lot of easy ganks vs bad players or get superior teamfight initiation. It's pretty easy for a solo off-lane Tidehunter to just ruin the midgame for the other team with his level advantage and damage from either mid or any part of the trilane. The other team is going to be equally as bad at taking advantage of your improperly played trilane.
Of course that depends on you having 2 people good enough to solo the mid and off lane.
|
United States47024 Posts
The faulty assumption is that an off-lane solo levels faster than an off-lane duo which is not always necessarily the case depending on the strength of their safe lane duo/tri.
If your supports don't manage their development well, having underleveled supports hurts really bad midgame.
On March 28 2013 02:23 Logo wrote:The other team is going to be equally as bad at taking advantage of your improperly played trilane.
Pretty much any 2v1 can keep the off-laner in the state of "can get XP but can't get lasthits". If the 2nd support isn't either guaranteeing the enemy off-laner being zero XP or repeatedly killing their off-laner, what is the 2nd support doing? There's nothing for the enemy off-laner to be "bad at taking advantage of" other than getting XP and not dying.
|
On March 28 2013 02:07 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 28 2013 02:05 Comeh wrote:
Welcome to lower level CM games. It took me awhile before I played with good enough supports that bought sentries. I was bad. I mean if you're queuing solo, I understand the idiocy/selfishness, but he's 5-stacking with friends. If your friends are playing support on that low a level, then it's not even worth playing 3-1-1 lanes because supports on that level don't actually know how to play trilanes properly. And if your supports aren't making efficient use of their time in a trilane, then you're just better off playing 2-1-2 lanes.
Well, to be honest, you don't magically get better at trilaning. You have to have knowledge, yes, know how to run it, but it definitely takes practice on how to execute trilanes well. So saying "its not worth it" isn't necessarily true if your end goal is to get better.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
