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On October 18 2012 11:42 LazyFailKid wrote:
So is it feasible to use mind control types in lane? Sometimes pub games have no people who are willing to listen and it would be kind of awkward to have to go mid and realize halfway though the game you would be useless, Seems like here chen is the better laner since he has his creeps for forever. Also do they scale well with gold AKA should i be taking kills on purpose?
Yes they are feasible in a lane, just pop in and out the jungle on your mind control cooldown and steal a creep. You will farm a lot less, and have limited selection of creeps but it can be done. Chen + Enchant usually get support items like mekansm on Chen or drums / urn / aghs on Enchant.
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On October 18 2012 11:15 LazyFailKid wrote:
Um, are mindcontrol type heroes good in public games? They seem like good gankers that can snowball early but do they require coordination with your team during ganks? enchantress seems like a good pick since she can probably solo kill people faster and chen's skills seem more of the supportive kind or is there something im missing?
It's good if your allies have stuns/slow. It's crappy if your team picks 4 carries and refuse to help kill, and see it as an opportunity to farm 2 extra creeps.
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
On October 18 2012 11:44 Spinfusor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 05:26 Qbek wrote:On October 18 2012 05:25 r.Evo wrote:
You can forcestaff him during his ulti tho. Recently found out and it nets pretty neat results. =P That's why all pro bats go blink force staff bkb. Bkb, blink in, force staff back. Fucking goblin snatchers I thought you couldn't forcestaff when bkb'd? Was this changed, or am I just wrong?
You can't.
For a source: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=32934
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On October 18 2012 15:57 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 11:44 Spinfusor wrote:On October 18 2012 05:26 Qbek wrote:On October 18 2012 05:25 r.Evo wrote:
You can forcestaff him during his ulti tho. Recently found out and it nets pretty neat results. =P That's why all pro bats go blink force staff bkb. Bkb, blink in, force staff back. Fucking goblin snatchers I thought you couldn't forcestaff when bkb'd? Was this changed, or am I just wrong? You can't. For a source: http://dev.dota2.com/showthread.php?t=32934
Yeah sry bout that, you still get bkb, just use it right after force staff, if you're still in danger of getting stunned ofc.
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On October 18 2012 11:15 LazyFailKid wrote:
Um, are mindcontrol type heroes good in public games? They seem like good gankers that can snowball early but do they require coordination with your team during ganks? enchantress seems like a good pick since she can probably solo kill people faster and chen's skills seem more of the supportive kind or is there something im missing?
In low tier games just farm Enchantress up and out-carry everyone. No one will gank you for the first 10 mins of the game so you'll have plenty of freespace.
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What are people thoughts on rushing Hand of Midas? If you can get good farm early game, would you get Hand of Midas or just rush whatever item you usually get?
I am thinking about getting on:
1. Heroes that benefit from the attack speed.
2. Heroes that do not need to gank or do not need early game items to do well or farm (in the early game).
For Spectre for example, I usually get Vanguard first (for tanking), but a few games I tried just rushing Hand of Midas > Vanguard (if I can get both within 20 min mark, it's good).
The main reasons are:
1. Assuming each creep kill gives an average of 40 gold, and assuming you can use hand of midas once every 110 seconds (it gives +190 gold, so that's 150 gold per 110 seconds), that's +818 gold every 10 minutes. Hand of Midas pays for itself and starts to profit after ~23 minutes into the game. The time is halved if you later sell Hand of Midas.
If you can get Hand of Midas within 7-8 mins into the game, that means it starts to profit after the 30 min mark (assuming you can use hand of midas at least once every 110 seconds).
2. Remember, you can sell Hand of Midas to get 950 gold back (which means that Hand of Midas starts profiting 11.5 minutes after you get it). Average game for me is 45 minutes (though 55+ min games aren't too uncommon for me).
It depends on the game if it's worth it (team's comp vs enemy's comp). I wouldn't get hand of midas if my team needs a tank early on (in case of Spectre). Also Spectre is one of those heroes who doesn't really need any major items (besides maybe Vanguard) early on to do stuff thanks to Desolate (huge damage boost early game). Also in this case, the +30% attack speed benefits desolate.
3. At least for me (in pubs) there is a lot of competition for farming in the late game (generally the late game where everyone sticks together and going out alone is too dangerous). Sometimes the late game can be passive with both sides not doing too much (but farming). Hand of Midas helps add a steady source of income in this case.
Plus, Hand of Midas adds to reliable gold (creep kills are unreliable gold) which means that if you're saving up for a specific item and die, the hand of midas gold is safe from being lost on death.
4. Finally, the exp gain from hand of midas (2.5x exp gain). If you happen to run across a creep camp with a level 6 creep (especially early on when you can't solo those creeps), you can get a huge boost of exp early on (allowing you to be sometimes a level ahead of others).
Of course, the major disadvantage of rushing hand of midas is 1900 gold (or 1750 gold if you factor in hand of midas being available to use right away) short of getting whatever item you usually get (which may translate to not being able to do much early on).
Overall, do you all think it's worth getting Hand of Midas early on (7-10 mins) if:
1. Hero benefits from attack speed. Obviously this varies from hero to hero and really depends on the situation too. Examples I am thinking of: Spectre (Desolate), Faceless Void (Bash), and other similar heroes for example?
2. Hero does not need to gank and/or can do stuff early game without other specific items they need?
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On October 19 2012 03:00 Goldfish wrote:
What are people thoughts on rushing Hand of Midas? If you can get good farm early game, would you get Hand of Midas or just rush whatever item you usually get?
I am thinking about getting on:
1. Heroes that benefit from the attack speed.
2. Heroes that do not need to gank or do not need early game items to do well or farm (in the early game).
For Spectre for example, I usually get Vanguard first (for tanking), but a few games I tried just rushing Hand of Midas > Vanguard (if I can get both within 20 min mark, it's good).
The main reasons are:
1. Assuming each creep kill gives an average of 40 gold, and assuming you can use hand of midas once every 110 seconds (it gives +190 gold, so that's 150 gold per 110 seconds), that's +818 gold every 10 minutes. Hand of Midas pays for itself and starts to profit after ~23 minutes into the game. The time is halved if you later sell Hand of Midas.
If you can get Hand of Midas within 7-8 mins into the game, that means it starts to profit after the 30 min mark (assuming you can use hand of midas at least once every 110 seconds).
2. Remember, you can sell Hand of Midas to get 950 gold back (which means that Hand of Midas starts profiting 11.5 minutes after you get it). Average game for me is 45 minutes (though 55+ min games aren't too uncommon for me).
It depends on the game if it's worth it (team's comp vs enemy's comp). I wouldn't get hand of midas if my team needs a tank early on (in case of Spectre). Also Spectre is one of those heroes who doesn't really need any major items (besides maybe Vanguard) early on to do stuff thanks to Desolate (huge damage boost early game). Also in this case, the +30% attack speed benefits desolate.
3. At least for me (in pubs) there is a lot of competition for farming in the late game (generally the late game where everyone sticks together and going out alone is too dangerous). Sometimes the late game can be passive with both sides not doing too much (but farming). Hand of Midas helps add a steady source of income in this case.
Plus, Hand of Midas adds to reliable gold (creep kills are unreliable gold) which means that if you're saving up for a specific item and die, the hand of midas gold is safe from being lost on death.
4. Finally, the exp gain from hand of midas (2.5x exp gain). If you happen to run across a creep camp with a level 6 creep (especially early on when you can't solo those creeps), you can get a huge boost of exp early on (allowing you to be sometimes a level ahead of others).
Of course, the major disadvantage of rushing hand of midas is 1900 gold (or 1750 gold if you factor in hand of midas being available to use right away) short of getting whatever item you usually get (which may translate to not being able to do much early on).
Overall, do you all think it's worth getting Hand of Midas early on (7-10 mins) if:
1. Hero benefits from attack speed. Obviously this varies from hero to hero and really depends on the situation too. Examples I am thinking of: Spectre (Desolate), Faceless Void (Bash), and other similar heroes for example?
2. Hero does not need to gank and/or can do stuff early game without other specific items they need?
There was a closed thread on this, and basically the consensus (not from Yacobs) was that it only works on very few heroes: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=374569
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Although on paper, Hand of MIdas gives you 190 gold per 100 sec (roughly 119 gpm free), it actually gives you more than that. A fast HoM will help you clear medium/big creepcamp much faster, sooner (for example, it takes 20, 25 sec for a drow rangerlevel 8,9 to clear centaur camp, but with Midas, you can clear it in 5 sec and move back to the lane/other creep camp). So in practice, HoM should give you something like 220, 250 gold per 100 second.
Fast xp, fast level up not only gives you better spells, but if you are 1 level above the enemy, you kind of like having 2 free GGbranch permanently. So you don't really need to invest in stats (buying bracer, null talisman, magic wand, stick is enough...) to increase your survivability, as long as you can keep your level higher than the enemy, because at worse, you have the same stats as them, and if you lose when you have same stats and midas, you will also lose when you have other basic items and without midas.
Overall, HoM is a good item for carry if you can afford it, whether you need attack speed or not. Rushing HoM is kind of the norm on some heroes so I don't think it's new strat or something.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 19 2012 04:59 canikizu wrote:
Although on paper, Hand of MIdas gives you 190 gold per 100 sec (roughly 119 gpm free), it actually gives you more than that. A fast HoM will help you clear medium/big creepcamp much faster, sooner (for example, it takes 20, 25 sec for a drow rangerlevel 8,9 to clear centaur camp, but with Midas, you can clear it in 5 sec and move back to the lane/other creep camp). So in practice, HoM should give you something like 220, 250 gold per 100 second.
If you're counting it like that, then that means you're double counting the gold value of the Centaur the Midas killed. The other 20 seconds wasn't wasted, it was spent killing that Centaur you one-shot with the Midas instead.
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On October 19 2012 05:05 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 04:59 canikizu wrote:
Although on paper, Hand of MIdas gives you 190 gold per 100 sec (roughly 119 gpm free), it actually gives you more than that. A fast HoM will help you clear medium/big creepcamp much faster, sooner (for example, it takes 20, 25 sec for a drow rangerlevel 8,9 to clear centaur camp, but with Midas, you can clear it in 5 sec and move back to the lane/other creep camp). So in practice, HoM should give you something like 220, 250 gold per 100 second. If you're counting it like that, then that means you're double counting the gold value of the Centaur the Midas killed. The other 20 seconds wasn't wasted, it was spent killing that Centaur you one-shot with the Midas instead.
But if you finish that creepcamp faster, you can move to another creep camp or return to the lane. Remember, wavelane creeps spawn every 30 seconds, if you spend 20, 25 second to get a creep camp, you will never be able to make it back to the lane without losing farm.
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The reason why most people think midas is a good item on paper is because they think they the enemy isn't going to pressure you. Which is most of the time unlikely unless you're in mega low MMR. Secondly there's alot of draw backs to having a midas, ultimately you want to get it as your first item so you're rushing it. Everything might be going smoothly until you get your midas and 1 or 2 deaths would instantly make you fall so far behind. In the time when you're still using your midas to get back your capital, you're prety much useless compared to other people. And while technically you're profiting from 11.5 minutes in to the game your gold till you sell it is still locked into the midas. And not to take into consideration the walking time and all.
People don't buy midas on spec because they either go vanguard into radiance or go diffusal. If i'm running a tri lane you can easily get radiance phase boots and vanguard by 20 mins max 22 if you're having some pressure. Once you get those two items you'd basically rape in the game.
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United States47024 Posts
On October 19 2012 05:08 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 05:05 TheYango wrote:On October 19 2012 04:59 canikizu wrote:
Although on paper, Hand of MIdas gives you 190 gold per 100 sec (roughly 119 gpm free), it actually gives you more than that. A fast HoM will help you clear medium/big creepcamp much faster, sooner (for example, it takes 20, 25 sec for a drow rangerlevel 8,9 to clear centaur camp, but with Midas, you can clear it in 5 sec and move back to the lane/other creep camp). So in practice, HoM should give you something like 220, 250 gold per 100 second. If you're counting it like that, then that means you're double counting the gold value of the Centaur the Midas killed. The other 20 seconds wasn't wasted, it was spent killing that Centaur you one-shot with the Midas instead. But if you finish that creepcamp faster, you can move to another creep camp or return to the lane. Remember, wavelane creeps spawn every 30 seconds, if you spend 20, 25 second to get a creep camp, you will never be able to make it back to the lane without losing farm.
Right, I know that, but if you're counting both the time saved and the gold gained, you shouldn't double-count the initial gold value of the Centaur--only the gold difference between the Centaur's value and the Midas gold.
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On October 19 2012 05:29 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 05:08 canikizu wrote:On October 19 2012 05:05 TheYango wrote:On October 19 2012 04:59 canikizu wrote:
Although on paper, Hand of MIdas gives you 190 gold per 100 sec (roughly 119 gpm free), it actually gives you more than that. A fast HoM will help you clear medium/big creepcamp much faster, sooner (for example, it takes 20, 25 sec for a drow rangerlevel 8,9 to clear centaur camp, but with Midas, you can clear it in 5 sec and move back to the lane/other creep camp). So in practice, HoM should give you something like 220, 250 gold per 100 second. If you're counting it like that, then that means you're double counting the gold value of the Centaur the Midas killed. The other 20 seconds wasn't wasted, it was spent killing that Centaur you one-shot with the Midas instead. But if you finish that creepcamp faster, you can move to another creep camp or return to the lane. Remember, wavelane creeps spawn every 30 seconds, if you spend 20, 25 second to get a creep camp, you will never be able to make it back to the lane without losing farm. Right, I know that, but if you're counting both the time saved and the gold gained, you shouldn't double-count the initial gold value of the Centaur--only the gold difference between the Centaur's value and the Midas gold.
No, the other money is from the other centaur/other small creep that are in the camp. Normally without Midas, you would never go into jungle and farm at level 7,8,9 because the time you spend in there usually too long and not worth it, but with Midas you can go in jungle. So:
- Without midas, you don't jungle
- With Midas, you can do some light jungle and still come out easy. Midas makes jungling possible
An extreme example is for example you are level 1
- You don't jungle at level 1 because it's extremely hard and may waste you the whole minute and regen to clear the big camp.
- With Midas, you can jungle at level 1 because suddenly, you only need to kill that small creep, and it only cost you 10, 15 seconds.
That is why I said Midas gives you 220, 250 gold, not 190 gold, because without Midas you would never touch that creep camp at all.
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United States47024 Posts
Ah ok, I see what you're saying now.
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Most of the times it's not worth getting because :
- You can get an item that makes you farm faster (radi/bfury)
- You're a midgame hero so you can't waste 1900g without losing a lot of your midgame power (TA/NS/Slardar)
- You're a support so don't be fucking dumb
- You need an item to be relevant (bkb/blink)
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Netherlands45349 Posts
Broodmother and Furion are the only ones I consistently get midas on.
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On October 19 2012 06:47 Erasme wrote:
Most of the times it's not worth getting because :
- You can get an item that makes you farm faster (radi/bfury)
- You're a midgame hero so you can't waste 1900g without losing a lot of your midgame power (TA/NS/Slardar)
- You're a support so don't be fucking dumb
- You need an item to be relevant (bkb/blink)
All the other reasons are standard, except the radi/bfury one actually. If you can get a midas and have free farm as a carry without disruption, you should almost get radi/bfury as fast as normal time.
Preserevance orb: 1750 gold
Midas: 1900 gold
Now you need to farm 2600 gold for the rest of bfury. One 30sec creepwave gives you 3 melee and 1 range, so you can have ~160 gold, or 320 gold/minute. It takes over 8 minutes to finish 2600 gold with no jungle.
With Midas, you can have a little bit of jungle, so you can make ~220 gold per 100 second, so it's about 132 gpm. In 8 minutes when you finish the other 2600 gold, Midas should net you over 1000 gold, and you only need to farm another 800 gold to finish bfury.
Not bad for an item that gives you free gold throughout the game and the +atk speed goes nice with +60 damage from bfury.
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If you can get a midas before 5min on am, then go ahead. But after that, a straight bfury is better. Your farm rate is way faster with bfury than with midas anyday. On alche/pl, getting radiance allows you to farm the entire jungle in less than a minute. On sylla you're just unstoppable as soon as you get your radi.
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On October 19 2012 07:36 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 06:47 Erasme wrote:
Most of the times it's not worth getting because :
- You can get an item that makes you farm faster (radi/bfury)
- You're a midgame hero so you can't waste 1900g without losing a lot of your midgame power (TA/NS/Slardar)
- You're a support so don't be fucking dumb
- You need an item to be relevant (bkb/blink) All the other reasons are standard, except the radi/bfury one actually. If you can get a midas and have free farm as a carry without disruption, you should almost get radi/bfury as fast as normal time. Preserevance orb: 1750 gold Midas: 1900 gold Now you need to farm 2600 gold for the rest of bfury. One 30sec creepwave gives you 3 melee and 1 range, so you can have ~160 gold, or 320 gold/minute. It takes over 8 minutes to finish 2600 gold with no jungle. With Midas, you can have a little bit of jungle, so you can make ~220 gold per 100 second, so it's about 132 gpm. In 8 minutes when you finish the other 2600 gold, Midas should net you over 1000 gold, and you only need to farm another 800 gold to finish bfury. Not bad for an item that gives you free gold throughout the game and the +atk speed goes nice with +60 damage from bfury.
and what happens when the enemy team realizes you wasted your gold on a useless item and don't let you farm?
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United States47024 Posts
On October 19 2012 07:36 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 06:47 Erasme wrote:
Most of the times it's not worth getting because :
- You can get an item that makes you farm faster (radi/bfury)
- You're a midgame hero so you can't waste 1900g without losing a lot of your midgame power (TA/NS/Slardar)
- You're a support so don't be fucking dumb
- You need an item to be relevant (bkb/blink) All the other reasons are standard, except the radi/bfury one actually. If you can get a midas and have free farm as a carry without disruption, you should almost get radi/bfury as fast as normal time. Preserevance orb: 1750 gold Midas: 1900 gold Now you need to farm 2600 gold for the rest of bfury. One 30sec creepwave gives you 3 melee and 1 range, so you can have ~160 gold, or 320 gold/minute. It takes over 8 minutes to finish 2600 gold with no jungle. With Midas, you can have a little bit of jungle, so you can make ~220 gold per 100 second, so it's about 132 gpm. In 8 minutes when you finish the other 2600 gold, Midas should net you over 1000 gold, and you only need to farm another 800 gold to finish bfury. Not bad for an item that gives you free gold throughout the game and the +atk speed goes nice with +60 damage from bfury.
I mean, this isn't exactly a good comparison--you're comparing lane farm + a full creep camp every 100 seconds to just lane farm. But any camp that's close enough for you to leave lane to Midas and get back to lane without missing farm is also pullable. So that camp wouldn't go unfarmed even if you didn't have Midas. Either a support would pull the camp and get the gold/XP from it, or you could pull it yourself and still get the gold/XP after farming the creep wave off your tower--the only gold you'd miss is the Midas bonus gold.
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EPT
