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On October 19 2012 08:05 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 07:36 canikizu wrote:On October 19 2012 06:47 Erasme wrote:
Most of the times it's not worth getting because :
- You can get an item that makes you farm faster (radi/bfury)
- You're a midgame hero so you can't waste 1900g without losing a lot of your midgame power (TA/NS/Slardar)
- You're a support so don't be fucking dumb
- You need an item to be relevant (bkb/blink) All the other reasons are standard, except the radi/bfury one actually. If you can get a midas and have free farm as a carry without disruption, you should almost get radi/bfury as fast as normal time. Preserevance orb: 1750 gold Midas: 1900 gold Now you need to farm 2600 gold for the rest of bfury. One 30sec creepwave gives you 3 melee and 1 range, so you can have ~160 gold, or 320 gold/minute. It takes over 8 minutes to finish 2600 gold with no jungle. With Midas, you can have a little bit of jungle, so you can make ~220 gold per 100 second, so it's about 132 gpm. In 8 minutes when you finish the other 2600 gold, Midas should net you over 1000 gold, and you only need to farm another 800 gold to finish bfury. Not bad for an item that gives you free gold throughout the game and the +atk speed goes nice with +60 damage from bfury. and what happens when the enemy team realizes you wasted your gold on a useless item and don't let you farm?
Then it's the same with building bfury. The enemy will not let you farm anyway. The point of building midas is to take advantage of the free farm you have, so if the enemy gank you to dead, they will gank you to dead whenever you're trying to build bfury or radiance anyway.
With Midas build, you simply replace the Preserevance Orb with Midas, after that you can go POrb for the regen if your lane is getting hard (because heroes level up, spells getting more dangerous) or just go Claymore like you do after POrb to provide dps. and faster farm (+atk speed +damage)
Imagine if the enemies gank you hard when you finish POrb, what can you do with it? Even with POrb, you still have a hard time jungle in such early stage, but if you already finish Midas, you can still jungle and get at least a constant free 132gpm from Midas. You can't get that money from POrb.
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On October 19 2012 08:12 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 07:36 canikizu wrote:On October 19 2012 06:47 Erasme wrote:
Most of the times it's not worth getting because :
- You can get an item that makes you farm faster (radi/bfury)
- You're a midgame hero so you can't waste 1900g without losing a lot of your midgame power (TA/NS/Slardar)
- You're a support so don't be fucking dumb
- You need an item to be relevant (bkb/blink) All the other reasons are standard, except the radi/bfury one actually. If you can get a midas and have free farm as a carry without disruption, you should almost get radi/bfury as fast as normal time. Preserevance orb: 1750 gold Midas: 1900 gold Now you need to farm 2600 gold for the rest of bfury. One 30sec creepwave gives you 3 melee and 1 range, so you can have ~160 gold, or 320 gold/minute. It takes over 8 minutes to finish 2600 gold with no jungle. With Midas, you can have a little bit of jungle, so you can make ~220 gold per 100 second, so it's about 132 gpm. In 8 minutes when you finish the other 2600 gold, Midas should net you over 1000 gold, and you only need to farm another 800 gold to finish bfury. Not bad for an item that gives you free gold throughout the game and the +atk speed goes nice with +60 damage from bfury. I mean, this isn't exactly a good comparison--you're comparing lane farm + a full creep camp every 100 seconds to just lane farm. But any camp that's close enough for you to leave lane to Midas and get back to lane without missing farm is also pullable. So that camp wouldn't go unfarmed even if you didn't have Midas. Either a support would pull the camp and get the gold/XP from it, or you could pull it yourself and still get the gold/XP after farming the creep wave off your tower--the only gold you'd miss is the Midas bonus gold.
Are we talking about pub or 5man dota? Because from my solo queue experience, people don't stack. They can pull, but they don't stack. Only rarely they stack up for carry, but one support can only stack 1 creep camp, it's very hard to stack 2 creep camp perfectly.
Moreover, the reason you stack creepcamp because you can't kill them in such early stage in the first place. If you have midas, which give you the ability to kill it before the spawn, why not use it? You'll have money faster which is better anyway
Edit: misread, sorry. But even so, no matter you are in the dire or radiant, there're 2 creep camp near lane and you can use midas on either one of them, your support can have the other one.
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He's only talking about pulls specifically in that post.
Lane is pushed and your support doesn't pull or will be too late for whatever reason? Do it yourself, the farm from jungle camps isn't "lost" that way.
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I late-late game - which six items would you have on Void?
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Treads, Battlefury, Satanic, Butterfly, Daedalus then MKB or Assault C.
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On October 19 2012 08:25 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 08:05 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 19 2012 07:36 canikizu wrote:On October 19 2012 06:47 Erasme wrote:
Most of the times it's not worth getting because :
- You can get an item that makes you farm faster (radi/bfury)
- You're a midgame hero so you can't waste 1900g without losing a lot of your midgame power (TA/NS/Slardar)
- You're a support so don't be fucking dumb
- You need an item to be relevant (bkb/blink) All the other reasons are standard, except the radi/bfury one actually. If you can get a midas and have free farm as a carry without disruption, you should almost get radi/bfury as fast as normal time. Preserevance orb: 1750 gold Midas: 1900 gold Now you need to farm 2600 gold for the rest of bfury. One 30sec creepwave gives you 3 melee and 1 range, so you can have ~160 gold, or 320 gold/minute. It takes over 8 minutes to finish 2600 gold with no jungle. With Midas, you can have a little bit of jungle, so you can make ~220 gold per 100 second, so it's about 132 gpm. In 8 minutes when you finish the other 2600 gold, Midas should net you over 1000 gold, and you only need to farm another 800 gold to finish bfury. Not bad for an item that gives you free gold throughout the game and the +atk speed goes nice with +60 damage from bfury. and what happens when the enemy team realizes you wasted your gold on a useless item and don't let you farm? Then it's the same with building bfury. The enemy will not let you farm anyway. The point of building midas is to take advantage of the free farm you have, so if the enemy gank you to dead, they will gank you to dead whenever you're trying to build bfury or radiance anyway. With Midas build, you simply replace the Preserevance Orb with Midas, after that you can go POrb for the regen if your lane is getting hard (because heroes level up, spells getting more dangerous) or just go Claymore like you do after POrb to provide dps. and faster farm (+atk speed +damage) Imagine if the enemies gank you hard when you finish POrb, what can you do with it? Even with POrb, you still have a hard time jungle in such early stage, but if you already finish Midas, you can still jungle and get at least a constant free 132gpm from Midas. You can't get that money from POrb.
Battlefury parts actually build into useful laning items. Regen from a ring of health is pretty good early on. Attack speed in contrast is almost useless early on. You have a much bigger window of getting owned in lane if you go midas as opposed to rushing battlefury. You will also need to buy additional regen because you don't have a ring of health.
Saying midas is good when it works and bad when it doesn't is a stupid argument for it being superior. There is an area between the two absolutes (free farm and getting ganked) in there where you won't get harassed out of lane if you have a ring of health, but you would if you were building towards midas since you have no way to sustain yourself. If the enemy is just going to let you afk farm the entire game you could build anything and win.
I'd also like to add that finishing the perseverance first is almost never the best option. Unless you need the additional mana regen then you should get the damage items prior to getting the voidstone since you have no use for it.
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Perseverance gives 10 points of "free" damage. Just throwin that out there.
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Getting Midas on hard melee carries who have a perfectly standard buildup with a Battlefury is asking for a loss. If farm allows it, 10-12 min bfury is going to be superior to 7-8 midas. Unless you can get Midas so quickly, at 5-6 mins it would be worth it. You would need your babysitter on double-duty though.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On October 19 2012 09:39 Testuser wrote:
I late-late game - which six items would you have on Void?
On October 19 2012 09:59 Slardar wrote:
Treads, Battlefury, Satanic, Butterfly, Daedalus then MKB or Assault C.
Depends on enemy team composition. Items listed above are extremely offensive--meaning they are lacking BKB.
Travels not Treads. BKB is super important against many lineups--sacrifices a bit of damage but increases survivability by a ton and pretty much guarantees you will kill anybody inside your Chronosphere.
As a base case, definitely Travels, Satanic, and Butterfly. Against a lineup replete with disables, BKB super useful. MKB against other evasion-wielding carries, Daedalus otherwise. Battle Fury can be kept for creep-clearing ability but Manta Style gives more damage overall and utility against silences and debuffs.
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On October 19 2012 10:50 Slardar wrote:
Getting Midas on hard melee carries who have a perfectly standard buildup with a Battlefury is asking for a loss. If farm allows it, 10-12 min bfury is going to be superior to 7-8 midas. Unless you can get Midas so quickly, at 5-6 mins it would be worth it. You would need your babysitter on double-duty though.
If you get midas 7,8 min, that means you can only get Porb in 7,8 min, there's no way you can finish bfury in 4 minute, you'll need lik 750 gpm to do that.
On October 19 2012 10:14 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 08:25 canikizu wrote:On October 19 2012 08:05 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 19 2012 07:36 canikizu wrote:On October 19 2012 06:47 Erasme wrote:
Most of the times it's not worth getting because :
- You can get an item that makes you farm faster (radi/bfury)
- You're a midgame hero so you can't waste 1900g without losing a lot of your midgame power (TA/NS/Slardar)
- You're a support so don't be fucking dumb
- You need an item to be relevant (bkb/blink) All the other reasons are standard, except the radi/bfury one actually. If you can get a midas and have free farm as a carry without disruption, you should almost get radi/bfury as fast as normal time. Preserevance orb: 1750 gold Midas: 1900 gold Now you need to farm 2600 gold for the rest of bfury. One 30sec creepwave gives you 3 melee and 1 range, so you can have ~160 gold, or 320 gold/minute. It takes over 8 minutes to finish 2600 gold with no jungle. With Midas, you can have a little bit of jungle, so you can make ~220 gold per 100 second, so it's about 132 gpm. In 8 minutes when you finish the other 2600 gold, Midas should net you over 1000 gold, and you only need to farm another 800 gold to finish bfury. Not bad for an item that gives you free gold throughout the game and the +atk speed goes nice with +60 damage from bfury. and what happens when the enemy team realizes you wasted your gold on a useless item and don't let you farm? Then it's the same with building bfury. The enemy will not let you farm anyway. The point of building midas is to take advantage of the free farm you have, so if the enemy gank you to dead, they will gank you to dead whenever you're trying to build bfury or radiance anyway. With Midas build, you simply replace the Preserevance Orb with Midas, after that you can go POrb for the regen if your lane is getting hard (because heroes level up, spells getting more dangerous) or just go Claymore like you do after POrb to provide dps. and faster farm (+atk speed +damage) Imagine if the enemies gank you hard when you finish POrb, what can you do with it? Even with POrb, you still have a hard time jungle in such early stage, but if you already finish Midas, you can still jungle and get at least a constant free 132gpm from Midas. You can't get that money from POrb. Battlefury parts actually build into useful laning items. Regen from a ring of health is pretty good early on. Attack speed in contrast is almost useless early on. You have a much bigger window of getting owned in lane if you go midas as opposed to rushing battlefury. You will also need to buy additional regen because you don't have a ring of health. Saying midas is good when it works and bad when it doesn't is a stupid argument for it being superior. There is an area between the two absolutes (free farm and getting ganked) in there where you won't get harassed out of lane if you have a ring of health, but you would if you were building towards midas since you have no way to sustain yourself. If the enemy is just going to let you afk farm the entire game you could build anything and win. I'd also like to add that finishing the perseverance first is almost never the best option. Unless you need the additional mana regen then you should get the damage items prior to getting the voidstone since you have no use for it.
I think a lot of people missing the point that I made: you need to have good free farm in the beginning. For example, you have 900 gold and but still haven't used 6 tango you bought yet. What's the point of getting a regen ring when you have that much free farm and that much regen consumables left? The most logical way is to go for the claymore before getting regen ring, you can get it later when you use up the tangos. OR you can rush for a midas.
The point I want to make here is: there is an option to go for midas if you have good farm, and going midas will only put you behind in a short run just a little bit but the benefit from having +30atk speed and free gold is much better for the long run. You have 2 options instead of blindly going for 1.
Going midas or going the traditional build depend on how you read the games at that particular time. Going Midas is a risk, sure, but it all depends on how you perceive how manageable that risk is and go for bigger reward.
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I've gotten midas midgame (when both teams don't want to push or fight) to save reliable gold for high level buybacks. Once your team can't kill anymore towers and isn't getting kills, all your gold is unreliable. Die at level 25, that's 750 gold, the difference which you can make back waiting for roshan to revive.
It's not quite worth it, but sometimes it will be as helpful as any other 2k gold item.
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If you indeed do have freefarm all alone, perhaps because of trilane or some other similiar factor, you should be able to get the Midas before 5 minutes, and I'm pretty sure that the additional aspd(It indeed is a useful stat for dps carries, especially AM) as well as the extra gold earned throughout the game should be able to make up for the Battle Fury getting delayed by a minute or two, especially when you consider that you first of all aren't planning on fighting before your next item or two and you're going to be clearing faster after you get it anyway.
Also the reliable gold factor seems almost forgotten. You can "earn" even more gold by losing less when you die.
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So this is a really broad question, but in general, what are some good ways to analyze my play and look for ways to improve? What are some important questions I should be asking myself after a bad (or a good) game?
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United States47024 Posts
On October 19 2012 09:59 Slardar wrote:
Treads, Battlefury, Satanic, Butterfly, Daedalus then MKB or Assault C.
Manta is actually very good on Void now. The only reason people didn't build it in DotA 1 is because fake bashes fuck up your real bashes, but fake bashing is gone now.
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On October 19 2012 09:39 Testuser wrote:
I late-late game - which six items would you have on Void?
rapier
rapier
rapier
rapier
+ Show Spoiler +
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On October 19 2012 11:08 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 10:50 Slardar wrote:
Getting Midas on hard melee carries who have a perfectly standard buildup with a Battlefury is asking for a loss. If farm allows it, 10-12 min bfury is going to be superior to 7-8 midas. Unless you can get Midas so quickly, at 5-6 mins it would be worth it. You would need your babysitter on double-duty though. If you get midas 7,8 min, that means you can only get Porb in 7,8 min, there's no way you can finish bfury in 4 minute, you'll need lik 750 gpm to do that. Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 10:14 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 19 2012 08:25 canikizu wrote:On October 19 2012 08:05 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 19 2012 07:36 canikizu wrote:On October 19 2012 06:47 Erasme wrote:
Most of the times it's not worth getting because :
- You can get an item that makes you farm faster (radi/bfury)
- You're a midgame hero so you can't waste 1900g without losing a lot of your midgame power (TA/NS/Slardar)
- You're a support so don't be fucking dumb
- You need an item to be relevant (bkb/blink) All the other reasons are standard, except the radi/bfury one actually. If you can get a midas and have free farm as a carry without disruption, you should almost get radi/bfury as fast as normal time. Preserevance orb: 1750 gold Midas: 1900 gold Now you need to farm 2600 gold for the rest of bfury. One 30sec creepwave gives you 3 melee and 1 range, so you can have ~160 gold, or 320 gold/minute. It takes over 8 minutes to finish 2600 gold with no jungle. With Midas, you can have a little bit of jungle, so you can make ~220 gold per 100 second, so it's about 132 gpm. In 8 minutes when you finish the other 2600 gold, Midas should net you over 1000 gold, and you only need to farm another 800 gold to finish bfury. Not bad for an item that gives you free gold throughout the game and the +atk speed goes nice with +60 damage from bfury. and what happens when the enemy team realizes you wasted your gold on a useless item and don't let you farm? Then it's the same with building bfury. The enemy will not let you farm anyway. The point of building midas is to take advantage of the free farm you have, so if the enemy gank you to dead, they will gank you to dead whenever you're trying to build bfury or radiance anyway. With Midas build, you simply replace the Preserevance Orb with Midas, after that you can go POrb for the regen if your lane is getting hard (because heroes level up, spells getting more dangerous) or just go Claymore like you do after POrb to provide dps. and faster farm (+atk speed +damage) Imagine if the enemies gank you hard when you finish POrb, what can you do with it? Even with POrb, you still have a hard time jungle in such early stage, but if you already finish Midas, you can still jungle and get at least a constant free 132gpm from Midas. You can't get that money from POrb. Battlefury parts actually build into useful laning items. Regen from a ring of health is pretty good early on. Attack speed in contrast is almost useless early on. You have a much bigger window of getting owned in lane if you go midas as opposed to rushing battlefury. You will also need to buy additional regen because you don't have a ring of health. Saying midas is good when it works and bad when it doesn't is a stupid argument for it being superior. There is an area between the two absolutes (free farm and getting ganked) in there where you won't get harassed out of lane if you have a ring of health, but you would if you were building towards midas since you have no way to sustain yourself. If the enemy is just going to let you afk farm the entire game you could build anything and win. I'd also like to add that finishing the perseverance first is almost never the best option. Unless you need the additional mana regen then you should get the damage items prior to getting the voidstone since you have no use for it. I think a lot of people missing the point that I made: you need to have good free farm in the beginning. For example, you have 900 gold and but still haven't used 6 tango you bought yet. What's the point of getting a regen ring when you have that much free farm and that much regen consumables left? The most logical way is to go for the claymore before getting regen ring, you can get it later when you use up the tangos. OR you can rush for a midas. The point I want to make here is: there is an option to go for midas if you have good farm, and going midas will only put you behind in a short run just a little bit but the benefit from having +30atk speed and free gold is much better for the long run. You have 2 options instead of blindly going for 1. Going midas or going the traditional build depend on how you read the games at that particular time. Going Midas is a risk, sure, but it all depends on how you perceive how manageable that risk is and go for bigger reward.
I've seen an 11 min battlefury on am before in a pro game. The reason why people go battle fury with antimage is because it's a huge source of damage, after battle fury they go manta and you're pretty decent at team fights already. For midas if you're going to use it to buy manta you're missing +65 damage, which is significant if you ask me, it also allows you to push faster unlike midas where by you can only convert one creep every 100 seconds, the time you take to kill those creeps faster can be used to jungle or what not.
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FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
On October 19 2012 16:06 KwoM wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2012 11:08 canikizu wrote:On October 19 2012 10:50 Slardar wrote:
Getting Midas on hard melee carries who have a perfectly standard buildup with a Battlefury is asking for a loss. If farm allows it, 10-12 min bfury is going to be superior to 7-8 midas. Unless you can get Midas so quickly, at 5-6 mins it would be worth it. You would need your babysitter on double-duty though. If you get midas 7,8 min, that means you can only get Porb in 7,8 min, there's no way you can finish bfury in 4 minute, you'll need lik 750 gpm to do that. On October 19 2012 10:14 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 19 2012 08:25 canikizu wrote:On October 19 2012 08:05 Blitzkrieg0 wrote:On October 19 2012 07:36 canikizu wrote:On October 19 2012 06:47 Erasme wrote:
Most of the times it's not worth getting because :
- You can get an item that makes you farm faster (radi/bfury)
- You're a midgame hero so you can't waste 1900g without losing a lot of your midgame power (TA/NS/Slardar)
- You're a support so don't be fucking dumb
- You need an item to be relevant (bkb/blink) All the other reasons are standard, except the radi/bfury one actually. If you can get a midas and have free farm as a carry without disruption, you should almost get radi/bfury as fast as normal time. Preserevance orb: 1750 gold Midas: 1900 gold Now you need to farm 2600 gold for the rest of bfury. One 30sec creepwave gives you 3 melee and 1 range, so you can have ~160 gold, or 320 gold/minute. It takes over 8 minutes to finish 2600 gold with no jungle. With Midas, you can have a little bit of jungle, so you can make ~220 gold per 100 second, so it's about 132 gpm. In 8 minutes when you finish the other 2600 gold, Midas should net you over 1000 gold, and you only need to farm another 800 gold to finish bfury. Not bad for an item that gives you free gold throughout the game and the +atk speed goes nice with +60 damage from bfury. and what happens when the enemy team realizes you wasted your gold on a useless item and don't let you farm? Then it's the same with building bfury. The enemy will not let you farm anyway. The point of building midas is to take advantage of the free farm you have, so if the enemy gank you to dead, they will gank you to dead whenever you're trying to build bfury or radiance anyway. With Midas build, you simply replace the Preserevance Orb with Midas, after that you can go POrb for the regen if your lane is getting hard (because heroes level up, spells getting more dangerous) or just go Claymore like you do after POrb to provide dps. and faster farm (+atk speed +damage) Imagine if the enemies gank you hard when you finish POrb, what can you do with it? Even with POrb, you still have a hard time jungle in such early stage, but if you already finish Midas, you can still jungle and get at least a constant free 132gpm from Midas. You can't get that money from POrb. Battlefury parts actually build into useful laning items. Regen from a ring of health is pretty good early on. Attack speed in contrast is almost useless early on. You have a much bigger window of getting owned in lane if you go midas as opposed to rushing battlefury. You will also need to buy additional regen because you don't have a ring of health. Saying midas is good when it works and bad when it doesn't is a stupid argument for it being superior. There is an area between the two absolutes (free farm and getting ganked) in there where you won't get harassed out of lane if you have a ring of health, but you would if you were building towards midas since you have no way to sustain yourself. If the enemy is just going to let you afk farm the entire game you could build anything and win. I'd also like to add that finishing the perseverance first is almost never the best option. Unless you need the additional mana regen then you should get the damage items prior to getting the voidstone since you have no use for it. I think a lot of people missing the point that I made: you need to have good free farm in the beginning. For example, you have 900 gold and but still haven't used 6 tango you bought yet. What's the point of getting a regen ring when you have that much free farm and that much regen consumables left? The most logical way is to go for the claymore before getting regen ring, you can get it later when you use up the tangos. OR you can rush for a midas. The point I want to make here is: there is an option to go for midas if you have good farm, and going midas will only put you behind in a short run just a little bit but the benefit from having +30atk speed and free gold is much better for the long run. You have 2 options instead of blindly going for 1. Going midas or going the traditional build depend on how you read the games at that particular time. Going Midas is a risk, sure, but it all depends on how you perceive how manageable that risk is and go for bigger reward. I've seen an 11 min battlefury on am before in a pro game. The reason why people go battle fury with antimage is because it's a huge source of damage, after battle fury they go manta and you're pretty decent at team fights already. For midas if you're going to use it to buy manta you're missing +65 damage, which is significant if you ask me, it also allows you to push faster unlike midas where by you can only convert one creep every 100 seconds, the time you take to kill those creeps faster can be used to jungle or what not.
No, Battle Fury is not built primarily as a source of damage.
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Lalalaland34501 Posts
On October 19 2012 06:47 Erasme wrote:
Most of the times it's not worth getting because :
- You can get an item that makes you farm faster (radi/bfury)
- You're a midgame hero so you can't waste 1900g without losing a lot of your midgame power (TA/NS/Slardar)
- You're a support so don't be fucking dumb
- You need an item to be relevant (bkb/blink)
And yet you get it every single game 
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Midas is a pretty terrible item to get if you're ahead. Battlefury is much better for farming and has more utility. Midas is only really viable if you get shutdown early on and you need to catch up. The extra xp is really makes Midas worth getting at all, not the gold.
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Lalalaland34501 Posts
On October 19 2012 21:26 Kishin2 wrote:
Midas is a pretty terrible item to get if you're ahead. Battlefury is much better for farming and has more utility. Midas is only really viable if you get shutdown early on and you need to catch up. The extra xp is really makes Midas worth getting at all, not the gold.
If you're shut down, wasting 1900g on an item that relies on hoping that the opposite team doesn't shut you down for a while is kind of silly.
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EPT
