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On May 14 2016 22:27 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I think a lot of the negativity surrounding Secret is because it's kind of like Nadal got surgery to replace both his arms with robotic ones to become a better tennis player, then lost every tournament after the surgery. People would relentlessly make fun of his decision to have his arms replaced, even if he hadn't yet played a major tournament after the surgery.
Or not paying the money they owe.
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Man it sure is easy to argue when all you do is put words into other people's mouths. No one said anything about Secret not trying or not being accountable for their losses but I bet it's convenient to pretend otherwise.
And criticizing an analogy by applying non-relevant characteristics? Do you really think I made the tennis comparison to involve the physical stress of both games? That's like criticizing the statement "he was as strong as an ox" by saying "no he can't be because oxen have horns on their head".
Let me make this clearer for you since apparently you have a hard time picking out the main idea of posts. Tennis players are overwhelmingly rated based on major wins. Masters level titles are basically forgotten about the season after. That aspect of the game (and only that aspect of the game that I am comparing don't start talking about random shit) is similar in dota, where 2011 is Navi's year, 2012 is iG's, 2013 is Alliance's, 2014 is Newbee's, and 2015 is EG's regardless of what minor tournaments happened in between. So when people talk about nonsense like "we've seen Secret 4.0 play two tournaments and that is incontrovertible proof that allstar teams fail and this team has no chemistry etc." of course I think that's ridiculous. If they perform well at Manila and TI6 they'll be considered a historically good team. If they bomb out they won't be. Whether or not they got 1st at Epi or ESL will not change that narrative at the end of 2016.
And that's not my opinion. I'm just making the observation that that is what the prevailing thought will be in the community because that's how it has always been. I've said nothing about Secret being a great team right now or anything like that. If you have something to say then you can respond to my points, not the imaginary fanboy you dreamed up in your head.
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Sanya12364 Posts
If you look at the team:
Envy is carrying the load just fine.
PieLieDie is doing his usual PLD including the occasional feeding but that's his role.
Puppey needs to find a high impact hero but he's not been looking the most high impact ever.
Artezzy, I have never been a big fan of, is in need of playing the mid role less greedy and less farm heavy. Unless Puppey drafts around fat Artezzy it doesn't make sense for him to prioritize farming so much over going around ma killing heroes.
Universe needs more playable heroes, more button pushing, and more hero killing.
If you look at W33 and Misery compared to Artezzy and Universe, the former pair just do more.
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Former pair did more as they played in a more playmaking role and less farming. Envy and Arteezy love to farm and they were pretty good at it even during the losses (not that DK game though). Heroes with more presence in ganks outside of 5v5 would be nice.
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I don't really agree with Arteezy somehow being too greedy being an issue atm. Hardly any of their losses are due to people not making moves and there somehow not being enough space for them all to farm. They've had a few losses through disastrous moments after gaining a relatively big lead, some of their losses are due to making the wrong moves after the laning phase, some are due to individual misplays. Arteezy has had his share of errors, but I don't see his playstyle as nearly as big of an issue as some claim. Not all the moves he makes are the right ones (though often he tries something with supports or whoever so can't only blame him), and notably he has had quite a few positioning errors where he is just too far forward when pushing a tower and gets bursted, but he is trying imo. He isn't just playing super farm heavy. In general I find the "farm heaviness" of the cores a lazy narrative that isn't actually based around what has happened in their games.
Though personally I wouldn't mind if the team played around Arteezy's best heroes. Puppey is comfortable playing around Arteezy's signature picks and combining it with a defensive support. Also I don't think such a style is really a problem for EE, despite what the redditor impression may be most of his primary heroes are relatively self sufficient and capable of participating early.
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boys, boys, Arteezy and EE have fed really bad kills in key moments, Ppy has not found a high impact pool of heroes, and their team fights have been atrocious (see, eg, universe). They more often then not come out of the laning phase looking pretty good, and even when behind put themselves in positions to win, but lose a key hero or fail a big teamfight at a key moment to lose.
they just need to figure out their communication and movement. I dont think "playstyle" has much to do with it.
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On May 15 2016 04:24 hariooo wrote:
Man it sure is easy to argue when all you do is put words into other people's mouths. No one said anything about Secret not trying or not being accountable for their losses but I bet it's convenient to pretend otherwise.
And criticizing an analogy by applying non-relevant characteristics? Do you really think I made the tennis comparison to involve the physical stress of both games? That's like criticizing the statement "he was as strong as an ox" by saying "no he can't be because oxen have horns on their head".
Let me make this clearer for you since apparently you have a hard time picking out the main idea of posts. Tennis players are overwhelmingly rated based on major wins. Masters level titles are basically forgotten about the season after. That aspect of the game (and only that aspect of the game that I am comparing don't start talking about random shit) is similar in dota, where 2011 is Navi's year, 2012 is iG's, 2013 is Alliance's, 2014 is Newbee's, and 2015 is EG's regardless of what minor tournaments happened in between. So when people talk about nonsense like "we've seen Secret 4.0 play two tournaments and that is incontrovertible proof that allstar teams fail and this team has no chemistry etc." of course I think that's ridiculous. If they perform well at Manila and TI6 they'll be considered a historically good team. If they bomb out they won't be. Whether or not they got 1st at Epi or ESL will not change that narrative at the end of 2016.
And that's not my opinion. I'm just making the observation that that is what the prevailing thought will be in the community because that's how it has always been. I've said nothing about Secret being a great team right now or anything like that. If you have something to say then you can respond to my points, not the imaginary fanboy you dreamed up in your head.
Yea yea, I already stated you didn't especifically said it, I apologize to you for that.
I get the idea of tennis without you explaining anything. And I don't need to explain what I mixed in with the stress and stuff because I believe you also got it.
About the prevailing thought in the community, there is where I differ. People is picky, fans are more picky than anyone (not talking about you specifically, it is just a generalization), they will remember what they want just to satisfy themselves. But that is just a matter of opinions, lets just leave it at that.
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at this rate universe for zai pls
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Zai is EG's sub, so he could only play for an Open Qualifier team. Secret has a TI Invite already locked up, so long as they don't switch their roster.
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Kuro was right! im sorry, i just had to do this.
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On May 16 2016 08:52 Taf the Ghost wrote:
Zai is EG's sub, so he could only play for an Open Qualifier team. Secret has a TI Invite already locked up, so long as they don't switch their roster.
no one was confused
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So the next event secret will attend would be Manila Major? I hardly believe they can suddenly do well at that moment without any Lans or even qualifiers.
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Well there will obviously be scrims, I'm sure the boys will come to Manila in a better shape than what we've seen during Epicenter
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Well the "suddenly doing well" happened in the last major. Their situation is pretty much the same as it was going to Shanghai. In fact I found them to look worse between Frankfurt and Shanghai than they do now, but it's a bit tricky to evaluate what sort of problems are easier to fix. Back then as far as I recall most of their issues were draft or early game related, which ends up in them looking terrible in a bunch of games even if their mid to lategame was fine. But now their issues are more in mid game execution imo, and of course drafts are linked to it. They need to find a style they can play.
Though it would be interesting what would happen with the team if they simply couldn't make it work and bombed out. Would they consider going through open quals? But at this point it's a bit pointless to speculate, if they place even decently at Manila I don't see that happening.
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Turns out Secret is saving strats for Manila.
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On May 16 2016 17:46 KaNeyome wrote:
So the next event secret will attend would be Manila Major? I hardly believe they can suddenly do well at that moment without any Lans or even qualifiers.
Sounds familiar.
Honestly I feel like the teams are so close to each other that whoever has better day and slightly better draft can win any given tournament, not to mention that scrims are a private affair. Look how many predictions came true during Shanghai - almost none.
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I feel like Secret going through qualifires (not ti obvously that would be a stupid move) would actually help them.the problem is not the skill of the players but the coordination.Unfortunatly though i think that if they dont get directly invited in a non valve event and have to qualify then they will simply forget it and wont go at all
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Secret has immense talent , but the secret that won the last major is a different team , Saying look they sucked and suddenly won a major is nice and all (true even) but its rare , it usually never happens in Valve events , so I hope they don't dismiss those bad games to be "not important" , I still believe they can rise to the top if they find a framing mid that works for RTZ , the guy just doesn't like to fight early more often then not he would want to farm (same as EE most cases) and i feel it puts too much pressure on the other 3 to make things happen , otherwise the other team exploits the passivity of Secret and takes fights and ganks.
Its not on RTZ of course , its the drafts and play style that is currently not the Meta , 5 man with pushing power is whats strong now , get 1 pick off into Rax is what`s hot.
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What game is an example of Secret being passive and the other team exploiting it? I don't think a single game at Epicenter fits that description. Arteezy did plenty of early fighting, the issue was more in how the team as a whole executed it. In fact, in basically every loss the downhill started from moves Secret initiated, not moves that the other team did.
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EPT
