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They play for practice? For patch experience? To be able to play the game at higher stakes than a scrimmage? I'm saying teams are remembered by their performances at major tournaments. Hell, before last year TI was all that mattered. I didn't say it was an excuse. You don't have to make things up.
If Nadal wins the next French Open no one is going to care that he was shitty leading up to it. It'll be considered a great win and he'll be considered a top player once again. If he wins 3 minor clay tournaments leading up to the FO and bombs out of it he'll be considered a flop. None of that has anything to do with him wanting to lose a masters level tournament so I have no idea why you're bringing that up.
Secretis considered a great team because of their performances at the majors this cycle. Their performance in between matters but very insignificantly. Criticism will be more warranted if they do shit at Manila.
I mean this seems obvious. Or do you think Secret 2.0 was a great team because they won a bunch of lans before losing TI? Who cares TI is just one tournament with the same value as any other tournament right? See I don't think you believe that so I don't know why you would apply it here.
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I do find it sort of funny how some people make fun of Secret 2.0 as an "unsuccessful" team, which is based entirely on their finishes at DAC and TI, but then also criticize the more recent Secret based on their performances between the majors while they were the best team in the majors this far.
Obviously they try to win every event, but as the last major showed even a fairly drastic turn in results can happen pretty suddenly. Whether this team is a success or a failure will be determined at Manila and (if they get there) TI.
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7650 Posts
We are dumpster till we win next major boys
Can only hope, but for now, embrace the dumpster.
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On May 14 2016 05:10 ch33psh33p wrote:
We are dumpster till we win next major boys
Can only hope, but for now, embrace the dumpster.
DUMPSTERBOYS
secret plz git gud again 
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Don't worry, we'll take Manila, Arteezy just needs to learn how to play the current mid meta
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From the games i saw, rtz wasnt the only Problem. It's not as easy, as you make it Sound.
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Not the only problem, but he is arguably still their biggest "star" so even if he does decent that is probably still not meeting expectations.
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in b4 rtz back to eg after ti6, and then will leave for secret before ti7
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On May 14 2016 03:01 hariooo wrote:
They play for practice? For patch experience? To be able to play the game at higher stakes than a scrimmage? I'm saying teams are remembered by their performances at major tournaments. Hell, before last year TI was all that mattered. I didn't say it was an excuse. You don't have to make things up.
If Nadal wins the next French Open no one is going to care that he was shitty leading up to it. It'll be considered a great win and he'll be considered a top player once again. If he wins 3 minor clay tournaments leading up to the FO and bombs out of it he'll be considered a flop. None of that has anything to do with him wanting to lose a masters level tournament so I have no idea why you're bringing that up.
Secretis considered a great team because of their performances at the majors this cycle. Their performance in between matters but very insignificantly. Criticism will be more warranted if they do shit at Manila.
I mean this seems obvious. Or do you think Secret 2.0 was a great team because they won a bunch of lans before losing TI? Who cares TI is just one tournament with the same value as any other tournament right? See I don't think you believe that so I don't know why you would apply it here.
Your argument fits every excuse a fan needs to justify bad results and undeserved invites.
You can say Nadal can play shit until he wins a Masters 1000 or whatever because that is the only thing that matters, big tournaments, but making a comparison between playing Tennis (which is demanding and stressing sport) and Dota (which many pros play from their houses most of the time) is quite bad.
Are you implying that Secret players have the same stress in their bodies that Nadal has and they have to save some stamina and avoid injuries for upcoming and more important tournaments?
Secret can play almost every tournament out there without needing to drop their level, if they play like shit is because there is something going on (from internal issues to slumps and many thing in between), not because they don't care. If they wouldn't care they would pick Pudge.
Saying "they are good, just wait until their next win" (that is exactly what happened last Major but anyone with tomorrow's newspaper can say they are right, in another dimesion they would have had to play quals and won them anyway) is completely unfair to other teams who bust their asses playing this game. But yea, what can you expect from a fan other than being biased towards their own team, it is expected.
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Just looked like they were way over confident in their individual abilities and their team decision making wasn't as good as their opponents
Hopefully this is just a reality check for them and they will focus on playing a solid, safe and consistent game.
PLZ RTZ JUST DONT BE COCKY LOL
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On May 14 2016 16:03 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2016 03:01 hariooo wrote:
They play for practice? For patch experience? To be able to play the game at higher stakes than a scrimmage? I'm saying teams are remembered by their performances at major tournaments. Hell, before last year TI was all that mattered. I didn't say it was an excuse. You don't have to make things up.
If Nadal wins the next French Open no one is going to care that he was shitty leading up to it. It'll be considered a great win and he'll be considered a top player once again. If he wins 3 minor clay tournaments leading up to the FO and bombs out of it he'll be considered a flop. None of that has anything to do with him wanting to lose a masters level tournament so I have no idea why you're bringing that up.
Secretis considered a great team because of their performances at the majors this cycle. Their performance in between matters but very insignificantly. Criticism will be more warranted if they do shit at Manila.
I mean this seems obvious. Or do you think Secret 2.0 was a great team because they won a bunch of lans before losing TI? Who cares TI is just one tournament with the same value as any other tournament right? See I don't think you believe that so I don't know why you would apply it here. Your argument fits every excuse a fan needs to justify bad results and undeserved invites. You can say Nadal can play shit until he wins a Masters 1000 or whatever because that is the only thing that matters, big tournaments, but making a comparison between playing Tennis (which is demanding and stressing sport) and Dota (which many pros play from their houses most of the time) is quite bad. Are you implying that Secret players have the same stress in their bodies that Nadal has and they have to save some stamina and avoid injuries for upcoming and more important tournaments? Secret can play almost every tournament out there without needing to drop their level, if they play like shit is because there is something going on (from internal issues to slumps and many thing in between), not because they don't care. If they wouldn't care they would pick Pudge.
Not sure why you label his post as an "excuse" when it really had nothing to do with that. Secret have been bad compared to other teams for now, but as proven in the last major cycle it can change quickly, and ultimately what the players will use to determine whether this team was a disaster or not is the major and TI. It has nothing to do with excuses.
Also your comment about players being able to play at your full level is incorrect imo. In most regular tournaments, teams don't have any sort of bootcamps. They fly in, play, go back home. Before Shanghai on the other hand Secret had a 2 week bootcamp. If I recall correctly Misery said in an interview that he played a shit ton both before and during the major, something he doesn't necessarily do for normal events. If you used every waking hour on dota all the time, you would quickly become tired. It seems pretty natural to me that you reserve such bursts to the majors. Of course this is generally the same for all teams, again it has nothing to do with excuses, but it perhaps is something that allows a team to quickly become better if they play a lot together and figure out stuff.
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On May 14 2016 16:56 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2016 16:03 Racket wrote:On May 14 2016 03:01 hariooo wrote:
They play for practice? For patch experience? To be able to play the game at higher stakes than a scrimmage? I'm saying teams are remembered by their performances at major tournaments. Hell, before last year TI was all that mattered. I didn't say it was an excuse. You don't have to make things up.
If Nadal wins the next French Open no one is going to care that he was shitty leading up to it. It'll be considered a great win and he'll be considered a top player once again. If he wins 3 minor clay tournaments leading up to the FO and bombs out of it he'll be considered a flop. None of that has anything to do with him wanting to lose a masters level tournament so I have no idea why you're bringing that up.
Secretis considered a great team because of their performances at the majors this cycle. Their performance in between matters but very insignificantly. Criticism will be more warranted if they do shit at Manila.
I mean this seems obvious. Or do you think Secret 2.0 was a great team because they won a bunch of lans before losing TI? Who cares TI is just one tournament with the same value as any other tournament right? See I don't think you believe that so I don't know why you would apply it here. Your argument fits every excuse a fan needs to justify bad results and undeserved invites. You can say Nadal can play shit until he wins a Masters 1000 or whatever because that is the only thing that matters, big tournaments, but making a comparison between playing Tennis (which is demanding and stressing sport) and Dota (which many pros play from their houses most of the time) is quite bad. Are you implying that Secret players have the same stress in their bodies that Nadal has and they have to save some stamina and avoid injuries for upcoming and more important tournaments? Secret can play almost every tournament out there without needing to drop their level, if they play like shit is because there is something going on (from internal issues to slumps and many thing in between), not because they don't care. If they wouldn't care they would pick Pudge. Not sure why you label his post as an "excuse" when it really had nothing to do with that. Secret have been bad compared to other teams for now, but as proven in the last major cycle it can change quickly, and ultimately what the players will use to determine whether this team was a disaster or not is the major and TI. It has nothing to do with excuses. Also your comment about players being able to play at your full level is incorrect imo. In most regular tournaments, teams don't have any sort of bootcamps. They fly in, play, go back home. Before Shanghai on the other hand Secret had a 2 week bootcamp. If I recall correctly Misery said in an interview that he played a shit ton both before and during the major, something he doesn't necessarily do for normal events. If you used every waking hour on dota all the time, you would quickly become tired. It seems pretty natural to me that you reserve such bursts to the majors. Of course this is generally the same for all teams, again it has nothing to do with excuses, but it perhaps is something that allows a team to quickly become better if they play a lot together and figure out stuff.
"Excuse" because he tries to excuse the performance of the team with attitude two tournaments in a row. Just like saying "the could have won it easy but didn't want to. You can't say they are good but they don't care just when it fits you. Or what, they cared about NanYang? My point is clear.
They are able to potentially play at full level in comparison to tennis, where if you go to extremes you may not be able to play the next tournament due to health/physical problems.
Of course playing games ten hours straight for days takes a toll on you. I did it and I know it. But comparing it to tennis is wrong. Nadal plays shit from time to time because he either can't do better or he is saving/taking care of himself for upcoming tournaments. Saying Secret does the same when they are already at the tournament is non-sense.
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On May 14 2016 07:00 plasmidghost wrote:
Don't worry, we'll take Manila, Arteezy just needs to learn how to play the current mid meta
I thought RTZ was ok?
Seemed more like the shot calling on going in and leaving was at issue. Envy/Universe didn't look their normal special selves.
I am definitely in the camp that hopes they grind a few more tournaments. Believe in the players. Just waiting for that Team to scare everyone.
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On May 14 2016 17:15 Racket wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2016 16:56 spudde123 wrote:On May 14 2016 16:03 Racket wrote:On May 14 2016 03:01 hariooo wrote:
They play for practice? For patch experience? To be able to play the game at higher stakes than a scrimmage? I'm saying teams are remembered by their performances at major tournaments. Hell, before last year TI was all that mattered. I didn't say it was an excuse. You don't have to make things up.
If Nadal wins the next French Open no one is going to care that he was shitty leading up to it. It'll be considered a great win and he'll be considered a top player once again. If he wins 3 minor clay tournaments leading up to the FO and bombs out of it he'll be considered a flop. None of that has anything to do with him wanting to lose a masters level tournament so I have no idea why you're bringing that up.
Secretis considered a great team because of their performances at the majors this cycle. Their performance in between matters but very insignificantly. Criticism will be more warranted if they do shit at Manila.
I mean this seems obvious. Or do you think Secret 2.0 was a great team because they won a bunch of lans before losing TI? Who cares TI is just one tournament with the same value as any other tournament right? See I don't think you believe that so I don't know why you would apply it here. Your argument fits every excuse a fan needs to justify bad results and undeserved invites. You can say Nadal can play shit until he wins a Masters 1000 or whatever because that is the only thing that matters, big tournaments, but making a comparison between playing Tennis (which is demanding and stressing sport) and Dota (which many pros play from their houses most of the time) is quite bad. Are you implying that Secret players have the same stress in their bodies that Nadal has and they have to save some stamina and avoid injuries for upcoming and more important tournaments? Secret can play almost every tournament out there without needing to drop their level, if they play like shit is because there is something going on (from internal issues to slumps and many thing in between), not because they don't care. If they wouldn't care they would pick Pudge. Not sure why you label his post as an "excuse" when it really had nothing to do with that. Secret have been bad compared to other teams for now, but as proven in the last major cycle it can change quickly, and ultimately what the players will use to determine whether this team was a disaster or not is the major and TI. It has nothing to do with excuses. Also your comment about players being able to play at your full level is incorrect imo. In most regular tournaments, teams don't have any sort of bootcamps. They fly in, play, go back home. Before Shanghai on the other hand Secret had a 2 week bootcamp. If I recall correctly Misery said in an interview that he played a shit ton both before and during the major, something he doesn't necessarily do for normal events. If you used every waking hour on dota all the time, you would quickly become tired. It seems pretty natural to me that you reserve such bursts to the majors. Of course this is generally the same for all teams, again it has nothing to do with excuses, but it perhaps is something that allows a team to quickly become better if they play a lot together and figure out stuff. "Excuse" because he tries to excuse the performance of the team with attitude two tournaments in a row. Just like saying "the could have won it easy but didn't want to. You can't say they are good but they don't care just when it fits you. Or what, they cared about NanYang? My point is clear. They are able to potentially play at full level in comparison to tennis, where if you go to extremes you may not be able to play the next tournament due to health/physical problems. Of course playing games ten hours straight for days takes a toll on you. I did it and I know it. But comparing it to tennis is wrong. Nadal plays shit from time to time because he either can't do better or he is saving/taking care of himself for upcoming tournaments. Saying Secret does the same when they are already at the tournament is non-sense.
He didn't excuse the losses by attitude? He's saying that ultimately it is the majors and TI which both the players and the fans will remember. It doesn't mean players don't want to win or they don't try, though there are some differences in how teams prepare for a major compared to other events typically. But it does mean that people shouldn't label a team as successful or not before those majors actually happen as they will eventually mostly talk about those anyway.
On May 14 2016 17:16 Sabu113 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2016 07:00 plasmidghost wrote:
Don't worry, we'll take Manila, Arteezy just needs to learn how to play the current mid meta I thought RTZ was ok? Seemed more like the shot calling on going in and leaving was at issue. Envy/Universe didn't look their normal special selves. I am definitely in the camp that hopes they grind a few more tournaments. Believe in the players. Just waiting for that Team to scare everyone.
Arteezy had a few not so great games like g2 against NB and g3 against VP imo but against Alliance his lack of success mostly came down to team moves in g1 and in g3 he was in a hard spot due to him and another guy getting picked off before the horn and Alliance getting the better of the laning assignments. But hard to say really how much of those team moves and their success comes down to Arteezy and his calls and what part is Puppey and whatnot.
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On May 14 2016 17:30 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2016 17:15 Racket wrote:On May 14 2016 16:56 spudde123 wrote:On May 14 2016 16:03 Racket wrote:On May 14 2016 03:01 hariooo wrote:
They play for practice? For patch experience? To be able to play the game at higher stakes than a scrimmage? I'm saying teams are remembered by their performances at major tournaments. Hell, before last year TI was all that mattered. I didn't say it was an excuse. You don't have to make things up.
If Nadal wins the next French Open no one is going to care that he was shitty leading up to it. It'll be considered a great win and he'll be considered a top player once again. If he wins 3 minor clay tournaments leading up to the FO and bombs out of it he'll be considered a flop. None of that has anything to do with him wanting to lose a masters level tournament so I have no idea why you're bringing that up.
Secretis considered a great team because of their performances at the majors this cycle. Their performance in between matters but very insignificantly. Criticism will be more warranted if they do shit at Manila.
I mean this seems obvious. Or do you think Secret 2.0 was a great team because they won a bunch of lans before losing TI? Who cares TI is just one tournament with the same value as any other tournament right? See I don't think you believe that so I don't know why you would apply it here. Your argument fits every excuse a fan needs to justify bad results and undeserved invites. You can say Nadal can play shit until he wins a Masters 1000 or whatever because that is the only thing that matters, big tournaments, but making a comparison between playing Tennis (which is demanding and stressing sport) and Dota (which many pros play from their houses most of the time) is quite bad. Are you implying that Secret players have the same stress in their bodies that Nadal has and they have to save some stamina and avoid injuries for upcoming and more important tournaments? Secret can play almost every tournament out there without needing to drop their level, if they play like shit is because there is something going on (from internal issues to slumps and many thing in between), not because they don't care. If they wouldn't care they would pick Pudge. Not sure why you label his post as an "excuse" when it really had nothing to do with that. Secret have been bad compared to other teams for now, but as proven in the last major cycle it can change quickly, and ultimately what the players will use to determine whether this team was a disaster or not is the major and TI. It has nothing to do with excuses. Also your comment about players being able to play at your full level is incorrect imo. In most regular tournaments, teams don't have any sort of bootcamps. They fly in, play, go back home. Before Shanghai on the other hand Secret had a 2 week bootcamp. If I recall correctly Misery said in an interview that he played a shit ton both before and during the major, something he doesn't necessarily do for normal events. If you used every waking hour on dota all the time, you would quickly become tired. It seems pretty natural to me that you reserve such bursts to the majors. Of course this is generally the same for all teams, again it has nothing to do with excuses, but it perhaps is something that allows a team to quickly become better if they play a lot together and figure out stuff. "Excuse" because he tries to excuse the performance of the team with attitude two tournaments in a row. Just like saying "the could have won it easy but didn't want to. You can't say they are good but they don't care just when it fits you. Or what, they cared about NanYang? My point is clear. They are able to potentially play at full level in comparison to tennis, where if you go to extremes you may not be able to play the next tournament due to health/physical problems. Of course playing games ten hours straight for days takes a toll on you. I did it and I know it. But comparing it to tennis is wrong. Nadal plays shit from time to time because he either can't do better or he is saving/taking care of himself for upcoming tournaments. Saying Secret does the same when they are already at the tournament is non-sense. He didn't excuse the losses by attitude? He's saying that ultimately it is the majors and TI which both the players and the fans will remember. It doesn't mean players don't want to win or they don't try, though there are some differences in how teams prepare for a major compared to other events typically. But it does mean that people shouldn't label a team as successful or not before those majors actually happen as they will eventually mostly talk about those anyway. Show nested quote +On May 14 2016 17:16 Sabu113 wrote:On May 14 2016 07:00 plasmidghost wrote:
Don't worry, we'll take Manila, Arteezy just needs to learn how to play the current mid meta I thought RTZ was ok? Seemed more like the shot calling on going in and leaving was at issue. Envy/Universe didn't look their normal special selves. I am definitely in the camp that hopes they grind a few more tournaments. Believe in the players. Just waiting for that Team to scare everyone. Arteezy had a few not so great games like g2 against NB and g3 against VP imo but against Alliance his lack of success mostly came down to team moves in g1 and in g3 he was in a hard spot due to him and another guy getting picked off before the horn and Alliance getting the better of the laning assignments. But hard to say really how much of those team moves and their success comes down to Arteezy and his calls and what part is Puppey and whatnot.
You are right spudde, he didn't explicitly said that.
The thing is all his comments end up being the same argument many here wield "Secret is good enough from time to time and so they deserve to be present everywhere without making any effort". By "any effort" I mean placing well regularly instead of 1 out of 5 tournaments, without even playing quals.
And when someone critizice that one out of five is not enough then the "Major > ESL One" stuff comes out, like all these tournament don't have 80% of the same teams. Then after this "you play always against the same teams" the next excuse is "the boys are not trying because the tourney is shit compared to Major/TI".
I am just looking into the future because I had this argument many times before and read such post uncountable times.
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we shall embrace the dumspter while we can, such a rare opportunity
also fascinating that there are some people that hellbent on arguing against fans of a team, the same people that donned a certain flair in a certain tournament but removed it immediately when the team got eliminated.I almost want an ignore feature.
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On May 14 2016 19:16 uthgard wrote:
we shall embrace the dumspter while we can, such a rare opportunity
also fascinating that there are some people that hellbent on arguing against fans of a team, the same people that donned a certain flair in a certain tournament but removed it immediately when the team got eliminated.I almost want an ignore feature.
I hope you are not talking about me.
I quote myself just so you know there was never even a bit of intention of cheering for Secret.
On February 12 2016 21:39 Racket wrote:
I am sorry guys, please have mercy. As a token of appreciation and a way of saying I am sorry, I gonna use Secret's flair for some time and write an apology in my signature.
There you go.
Edit: Hope you can forgive me and let us move on. /hug
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I think a lot of the negativity surrounding Secret is because it's kind of like Nadal got surgery to replace both his arms with robotic ones to become a better tennis player, then lost every tournament after the surgery. People would relentlessly make fun of his decision to have his arms replaced, even if he hadn't yet played a major tournament after the surgery.
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On May 14 2016 22:27 TheTenthDoc wrote:
I think a lot of the negativity surrounding Secret is because it's kind of like Nadal got surgery to replace both his arms with robotic ones to become a better tennis player, then lost every tournament after the surgery. People would relentlessly make fun of his decision to have his arms replaced, even if he hadn't yet played a major tournament after the surgery.
Good way to put it! I like it.
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EPT
