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On May 11 2016 23:14 Faruko wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2016 22:43 spudde123 wrote:On May 11 2016 22:41 tapes wrote:On May 11 2016 22:40 Dr.Sneyder wrote:
I liked the new team at first sight, but i gotta say.... both Arteezy and Universe are horribly underperforming at times....
And the ignorance of Puppey to ban smth you lost once...
Hope this starts chaning soon I wonder how much secret regrets kicking w33 and misery. They may regret it after Manila and TI, but at this point these conclusions are silly. Or did people already forget that Secret bombed out in 3 consecutive tournaments between Frankfurt and Shanghai and then won the major? In general I feel they do a bunch of things well in their play but then they had a few too many complete screw ups. Like in g2 they did very well to avoid the early pressure from VP and to get themselves ahead, but after that there was that top fight where VP went on rtz with aegis, pie wasted relocate, rtz died again and the rest of Secret came in. In the later wipe the Ember got some good cleaves off, I can't exactly recall what happened but I remember the Ember barely killing Rtz with some final cleave when he was running away for example. And in this g3 their support rotations mostly were very unsuccessful (though partly not because they were terrible but for example smoke broke in an unfortunate location, ES denied himself to neutrals, etc), Rtz was pretty poorly positioned or went for a bad kill like 1-2 times, and then they felt forced to take rosh fights and VP took them well. Yeah your argument holds until you realize all this mistakes were made against a team like VP. Not to mention, a better shape secret (or t1 teams) even with those mistakes could have won the games either way.
What are you even referring to in terms of my argument holding? I was just making observations about their games. They didn't look any worse against NB than they did against VP, how a team looks in a game is very game specific, just looking at the team name and declaring them as good or bad as if that determines how good or bad the other team looked is silly. Not sure about this last comment, pretty sure getting yourself 5 man wiped when you have worked hard to get ahead with an Alch lineup (where the Alch is rather countered through AA) isn't a mistake "better shape Secret" or anyone else could easily brush off.
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On May 11 2016 23:06 trollcenter wrote:
They played terrible today indeed, didn't look like a team at all.
The blame wheel has started.
Players of this caliber can be extremely offensive to each other when something goes wrong. And once that starts there is no turning back.
They have just one more chance to fix it. If they lose again before the grand finals it will be a disaster. Not sure that even second place can fix it but wont make it worse at least. However i cant see how they can fix the synergy issues overnight. Even if they can Puppey has to start and respect other teams strengths and ban the correct heroes.
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Holz shit secret is trash right now. Dont want to Sound smart, but Kind of saw this coming, when the team was formed. Way too many Egos for one team.
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those games were painful to me... 
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12 maps played since the team was formed. Obviously they are worse than teams that are playing hard everyday
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secret and eg don't play enough officials cause they get invites and don't go to every lan. I think it really affects their cohesion and execution.
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On May 11 2016 23:24 spudde123 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 11 2016 23:14 Faruko wrote:On May 11 2016 22:43 spudde123 wrote:On May 11 2016 22:41 tapes wrote:On May 11 2016 22:40 Dr.Sneyder wrote:
I liked the new team at first sight, but i gotta say.... both Arteezy and Universe are horribly underperforming at times....
And the ignorance of Puppey to ban smth you lost once...
Hope this starts chaning soon I wonder how much secret regrets kicking w33 and misery. They may regret it after Manila and TI, but at this point these conclusions are silly. Or did people already forget that Secret bombed out in 3 consecutive tournaments between Frankfurt and Shanghai and then won the major? In general I feel they do a bunch of things well in their play but then they had a few too many complete screw ups. Like in g2 they did very well to avoid the early pressure from VP and to get themselves ahead, but after that there was that top fight where VP went on rtz with aegis, pie wasted relocate, rtz died again and the rest of Secret came in. In the later wipe the Ember got some good cleaves off, I can't exactly recall what happened but I remember the Ember barely killing Rtz with some final cleave when he was running away for example. And in this g3 their support rotations mostly were very unsuccessful (though partly not because they were terrible but for example smoke broke in an unfortunate location, ES denied himself to neutrals, etc), Rtz was pretty poorly positioned or went for a bad kill like 1-2 times, and then they felt forced to take rosh fights and VP took them well. Yeah your argument holds until you realize all this mistakes were made against a team like VP. Not to mention, a better shape secret (or t1 teams) even with those mistakes could have won the games either way. What are you even referring to in terms of my argument holding? I was just making observations about their games. They didn't look any worse against NB than they did against VP, how a team looks in a game is very game specific, just looking at the team name and declaring them as good or bad as if that determines how good or bad the other team looked is silly. Not sure about this last comment, pretty sure getting yourself 5 man wiped when you have worked hard to get ahead with an Alch lineup (where the Alch is rather countered through AA) isn't a mistake "better shape Secret" or anyone else could easily brush off.
Well that is what happens since always. Teams look good... other teams are trash, teams look trash... you better not lose to them.
You can say Secret played well enough against NB but they lost to VP, a team that is playing so bad lately, and VP didn't even stomped Secret, they even almost lost with megas while Secret wasn't playing well.
All in all., Secret can still take the throphy. Hopefully they will work it out soon.
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so what's the deal with secret? are they still trying to find team chemistry?
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Still not convinced that ee and rtz work well together. Ee said that it is not true that both players are too similar and require space, since they both know how to farm to the limits so it is not an issue.
In the past I'd say this works, but the skill levels have risen and such farming patterns are no longer that unique. Most mids are able to apply such split push or dangerous farming if necessary.
Meanwhile while most mids are able to switch to a tempo style if necessary, I dont think the same can be said for rtz. Sure he used to be known for that in the past, but I don't think that's the case now.
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I think it was expected to see this kind of reaction. Seeing the roster, everyone overhyped Secret and expected them to win all or play very well. First games go bad and they are shit and need to disband. Egos collide, players are shit, they had to stay with the same last roster forever and ever, nevertheless the Frankfurt-Shangai period where they bombed all.
When a new team forms, you can have two outcomes: They have a honeymoon phase where they destroy all immediately , or have a slow phase where they suck ass and improve over time. (Or it crash and burns immediately, but hey! roster locks) Everyone obviously expects and only see the first outcome.
On May 11 2016 23:21 Faruko wrote:
I write this in GD but i guess its relevant here
im not sure but secret and other teams could sing up for more online leagues, those really help.
in csgo you can see navi, lg, astralis, etc... playing online qualifiers ALL the time, almost no team is invited right away to big tournaments (besdies major to major in the leged status). Ok there are some tournaments with invite system but almost every week that theres not a tournament you can see top teams battling each other in some league
Im not sure why but feels like that playing qualifiers (or online leagues for all that matter) is like "bad" in dota 2, like if you do those you must suck and whatsoever. Secret is 5-11 with this line up and has yet to win a single boX
Scrims are good and whatnot, but you need some of the real deal to keep you on your toes, that theres actually something to lose on the line
I think this is one of the things that are affecting the most this iteration of Secret. I understand the joys and benefits of being directly invited to tournaments, but right now what they need to do is play officials. Even pros say that scrims are good and all, but real games are where Teams play serious.
Previous iterations of Secret also started slow, maybe this will be the slowest. Also, this one like it have been said in this thread, have many particularities: How will EE and RTZ work together in a optimal way, How to adapt Universe in a Offlane where RTZ and EE absorb almost all the farm, how PLD and PPY support this new kind of environment, etc.
I like and agree with your comparison with CS:GO, but i guess Teams had enough from the early DOTA 2 period with the Starladders and online leagues, as the quantity of games teams play have been reduced big time. Maybe for some teams only playing scrims is enough, but clearly there is a need for some teams to play more officials.
If they really feel like this, then is the correct attitude. After TI will be the time where we can say and see if this iteration of Secret really worked or not.
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Hard part this meta is how the supports work. Greedy jungle supports have really fallen out of favor. Chuan lion and Fly phoenix have been doing so much work. Puppey and PLD have to really step up their game.
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Yeah still early days for this team. Plenty of time.
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After watching the Epicenter games I feel you can feel the potential of the team at times, like vs Newbee who crushed everyone so far.
I believe they will find their pace and roles in the team considering it is a new team and a new patch. Their Style is way different than what is was in Shanghai and at times they just seem to judge the balance of power a bit poorly in this patch.
Better luck vs Alliance!
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I don't think a majority of their losses really even closely relate to the playstyles of the core players as a whole. Against NB g1 they lost their early advantage through some individual mistakes (such as Arteezy blinking under their tower, probably due to a minimap click) and some situations going one way by a hair (like Batrider living 2 times 1 hit away from dying and even getting a kill in one of those cases). After they lost their advantage their lineup was just not that good against what NB had imo, their options were very limited until they got a bunch of items. 2nd game Secret played for the most part well as a team imo, but had some individual mistakes. For example had EE been more successful with armlet toggling / wand usage in one of those early fights I think he may have snowballed to a point where NB can't touch him and it would have been an easy game. And later there was also for example Arteezy positioning himself too far forward in some fights / pushes and getting punished.
Against VP g1 they did very well in their early moves. G2 they did very well imo to avoid the pressure coming from VP and to get to a comfortable position, but then threw it away with one giant meltdown top lane. Of course they could have won after that but it wasn't easy at all really, VP had a very good lineup against what Secret had I think. And g3 they weren't particularly successful in the early support rotations (though partly a bit unlucky too with them missing a few kills just barely, it wasn't like they weren't trying), then if I recall correctly at one point they went for a top t2 push, Arteezy was positioned a bit too far forward, got bursted, revived and went for a solo kill and died again. And at that point they feel forced to fight rosh fights despite it being against Tinker, Ursa, Disruptor etc., they will lose 100% if they try and be passive, but the DK will just keep on dying every fight and it's not easy for the Void to go in either.
In general I think one issue is that Puppey+PLD is not a support duo that does everything well, even with the old lineup it was the same thing. I don't think Secret can really properly play a game which heavily relies on the supports doing a lot of rotating and finding early kills, as that is not what either of them really excel in. Of course it may happen at times if the draft is good for it. But in general I think this is partly why Secret was and still is quite reliant on finding a good style that works for them in a patch. Despite people talking about "allstar" teams and whatnot these players just are not superior to others in every sort of a game, they can't just do whatever and make it work when playing against good teams. They need to find a drafting style that allows them to play to their strengths, and also they have some things to work on in their individual performance and team calls. But I don't think most of their struggles have really related to some general macro aspects of the game where the playstyles of players clash in a bad way.
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Hey remember when Secret got 2nd at Frankfurt and Cr1t called the team trash and everyone believed him because they played like shit until Shanghai? Not every result deserves shitty internet analysis.
As long as the team still believes in itself the potential is still there. Until we hear about internal issues this is still just the teething stage. Not to mention standard tournament results are relatively meaningless compared to majors/TI.
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Yeah, I still think the team will come good. "Form is temporary, class is permanent" is a cliché for a reason. Nobody aside from maybe EE is playing close to what we've seen from them in the past, and there's no reason to imagine that will continue. Whether they can get it together at this event or not, I can't imagine they never will.
I still think Secret are favourites against Alliance even off of this tournament, actually.
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Won't lie this team is making me nervous
But still believing. I would say they were favorites over Alliance but they somehow managed to lose to Virtus "not even a team" pro, so I dunno anymore.
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On May 13 2016 06:07 hariooo wrote:
Hey remember when Secret got 2nd at Frankfurt and Cr1t called the team trash and everyone believed him because they played like shit until Shanghai? Not every result deserves shitty internet analysis.
As long as the team still believes in itself the potential is still there. Until we hear about internal issues this is still just the teething stage. Not to mention standard tournament results are relatively meaningless compared to majors/TI.
Even when those results are against the same teams?
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Today Team Secret reveals their secret, first victim -- Alliance.
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EPT
