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On January 30 2016 11:09 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2016 21:57 Atoissen wrote:On January 29 2016 07:26 bumwithagun wrote:
sumail has been having a terrible time mid this patch. It's clear his invoker is a tier below the top invoker players like Miracle and w33ha. He also has lost some mid match ups that equally skilled players should not have lost. I think the kid needs to take the next month and spam. kinda agree, think sumail and ppd have looked the least sharp of the eg guys. its very small things to adjust to be on top of ur game again tho. btw, i think miracle looks alott better then w33, but I havent seen all secret games tho. PPD is not a great player. He's a good player, but not a great one. He's a stellar captain, which makes up for it, but he's always going to be at his best when the relevant supports require very little mechanical skill and only moderate tactical skill (for example, defensive supports). So I wouldn't be worried if he isn't showing off a ton of skill; he just needs to figure out how to draft himself some simple and potent heroes so that he can focus more on what he actually lends to the team. Sumail does seem to be slumping, though. They need to bump him down a level or two on hero farm and focus on playmaking. Probably he's just having a bad month. Everyone has those, and I can't imagine getting destroyed by the skilled and wily s4 helps.
The idea that ppd (or pld for that matter) is not a great player is just a meme.
He's one of the only supports who gets consistently mentioned by other pros as being a top player.
For Fng, one of the problem with old EG was that they all had incredible individual talent and could each outplay you.
Puppey said in his reddit AMA that if you wanted to get better at support you should watch ppd and fy.
After TI5, Envy said that ppd was the best 5 position in the world and that he was the only player in EG to be better than their TI5 Secret counterpart.
Mason and Aui also said he was the best, both after they were kicked.
And there are probably a lot of others I don't remember or haven't seen.
I don't know how he's going to ever get out of that reputation...
On the flip side he also has the reputation of being a mastermind of the draft when he said time and again that drafts/strategy decisions are made as a team and he only makes the final call...
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On January 31 2016 04:18 Diavlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2016 11:09 Acritter wrote:On January 29 2016 21:57 Atoissen wrote:On January 29 2016 07:26 bumwithagun wrote:
sumail has been having a terrible time mid this patch. It's clear his invoker is a tier below the top invoker players like Miracle and w33ha. He also has lost some mid match ups that equally skilled players should not have lost. I think the kid needs to take the next month and spam. kinda agree, think sumail and ppd have looked the least sharp of the eg guys. its very small things to adjust to be on top of ur game again tho. btw, i think miracle looks alott better then w33, but I havent seen all secret games tho. PPD is not a great player. He's a good player, but not a great one. He's a stellar captain, which makes up for it, but he's always going to be at his best when the relevant supports require very little mechanical skill and only moderate tactical skill (for example, defensive supports). So I wouldn't be worried if he isn't showing off a ton of skill; he just needs to figure out how to draft himself some simple and potent heroes so that he can focus more on what he actually lends to the team. Sumail does seem to be slumping, though. They need to bump him down a level or two on hero farm and focus on playmaking. Probably he's just having a bad month. Everyone has those, and I can't imagine getting destroyed by the skilled and wily s4 helps. The idea that ppd (or pld for that matter) is not a great player is just a meme. He's one of the only supports who gets consistently mentioned by other pros as being a top player. For Fng, one of the problem with old EG was that they all had incredible individual talent and could each outplay you. Puppey said in his reddit AMA that if you wanted to get better at support you should watch ppd and fy. After TI5, Envy said that ppd was the best 5 position in the world and that he was the only player in EG to be better than their TI5 Secret counterpart. Mason and Aui also said he was the best, both after they were kicked. And there are probably a lot of others I don't remember or haven't seen. I don't know how he's going to ever get out of that reputation... On the flip side he also has the reputation of being a mastermind of the draft when he said time and again that drafts/strategy decisions are made as a team and he only makes the final call...
I think you're confusing things. He's a superb person to have on a team and contributes massively to EG's successes, but in terms of sheer mechanical ability, he's below the majority of the supports in the scene. Let me express it this way: if PPD was unable to communicate except via chatwheel, it would affect him far more than the same penalty would affect most support players. This is because what makes him so damn good is not his play so much as his ability through drafting and strategy to allow his team to play at full capacity. This is what the pros mean when they say these things. The alternative, to assume that he's a brilliant playmaker and a mechanical genius, is absurd. There's a reason why he drafts himself heroes like Treant Protector, Vengeful Spirit, and Dazzle: they require extraordinarily little mechanical skill to play, as opposed to more aggressive heroes like Rubick and junglers like Chen. He can play those ones too, but it's laughable to think that his skill on them even approaches players like Kuroky or Akke. PPD's role in the game is as a constant guiding intelligence. He deliberately does very little that occupies his attention, so that he can think about things that his players are too busy to consider. This is what makes him such an incredibly valuable 5 position, and why those pros are completely right to say he's the best in the world.
It's worth noting, though, that you pretty much need to discard everything Envy says about the game. He's not dumb, not in the least, but he has his own weird definitions for things that don't match up to the way other players talk about the game. Until Envy releases a full dictionary so we can translate, it's much better to ignore him.
For reference, have you ever watched him stream in some kind of scrim situation, or a game similar to it? I have. He spends the entire game giving instructions and watching his teammates. There's very little mechanical prowess involved. That's the distinction I'm trying to draw out. He could do the same job at even more skill as a coach, if coaches were allowed to talk to players ingame again.
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I think mechanical ability is mostly only really relevant in the context of the heroes you play. The reason I dislike it when people say that PPD isn't that skilled or whatever is that I don't think I see him make individual screw ups on his heroes in various situations any more than other players in similar situations. Sure, he might not beat Sumail 1v1 mid or he might not have the ability to play a certain hero as brilliantly as someone else, but it's not relevant if it is not his role in the team. Though I suppose Rubick and Chen are decent examples of heroes that PPD has at some point played at least so they are relevant to his role in the team.
Not to mention that in a lot of cases I find it problematic to talk about mechanical ability in dota given that dota is a game where on a lot of heroes doing the necessary things mechanically is not hard at all, the difficult part is being in the right place at the right time doing the right thing. Like in this case if PPD is playing his safelane correctly or is behind the correct player on Dazzle he is already "more skilled" on the hero in my eyes than a guy who might play fights fine but does not have the same game understanding.
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On January 31 2016 04:18 Diavlo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 30 2016 11:09 Acritter wrote:On January 29 2016 21:57 Atoissen wrote:On January 29 2016 07:26 bumwithagun wrote:
sumail has been having a terrible time mid this patch. It's clear his invoker is a tier below the top invoker players like Miracle and w33ha. He also has lost some mid match ups that equally skilled players should not have lost. I think the kid needs to take the next month and spam. kinda agree, think sumail and ppd have looked the least sharp of the eg guys. its very small things to adjust to be on top of ur game again tho. btw, i think miracle looks alott better then w33, but I havent seen all secret games tho. PPD is not a great player. He's a good player, but not a great one. He's a stellar captain, which makes up for it, but he's always going to be at his best when the relevant supports require very little mechanical skill and only moderate tactical skill (for example, defensive supports). So I wouldn't be worried if he isn't showing off a ton of skill; he just needs to figure out how to draft himself some simple and potent heroes so that he can focus more on what he actually lends to the team. Sumail does seem to be slumping, though. They need to bump him down a level or two on hero farm and focus on playmaking. Probably he's just having a bad month. Everyone has those, and I can't imagine getting destroyed by the skilled and wily s4 helps. The idea that ppd (or pld for that matter) is not a great player is just a meme. He's one of the only supports who gets consistently mentioned by other pros as being a top player. For Fng, one of the problem with old EG was that they all had incredible individual talent and could each outplay you. Puppey said in his reddit AMA that if you wanted to get better at support you should watch ppd and fy. After TI5, Envy said that ppd was the best 5 position in the world and that he was the only player in EG to be better than their TI5 Secret counterpart. Mason and Aui also said he was the best, both after they were kicked. And there are probably a lot of others I don't remember or haven't seen. I don't know how he's going to ever get out of that reputation... On the flip side he also has the reputation of being a mastermind of the draft when he said time and again that drafts/strategy decisions are made as a team and he only makes the final call...
Some cool facts thats slipped by me, thanks!
The thing is that people rate how good someone are from what "plays" they make, how many lh, how many kills and how hard theier heroes are to play.
I do agree with Acritter that ppd usually look his best on the easier support heroes. Im not a good dota player myself, but I understand that alott of what makes ppd so good is his understanding of the flow of the game, what to do, his movement and reaction in games, treats that dont get the recognition it deserves.
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On January 31 2016 05:37 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2016 04:18 Diavlo wrote:On January 30 2016 11:09 Acritter wrote:On January 29 2016 21:57 Atoissen wrote:On January 29 2016 07:26 bumwithagun wrote:
sumail has been having a terrible time mid this patch. It's clear his invoker is a tier below the top invoker players like Miracle and w33ha. He also has lost some mid match ups that equally skilled players should not have lost. I think the kid needs to take the next month and spam. kinda agree, think sumail and ppd have looked the least sharp of the eg guys. its very small things to adjust to be on top of ur game again tho. btw, i think miracle looks alott better then w33, but I havent seen all secret games tho. PPD is not a great player. He's a good player, but not a great one. He's a stellar captain, which makes up for it, but he's always going to be at his best when the relevant supports require very little mechanical skill and only moderate tactical skill (for example, defensive supports). So I wouldn't be worried if he isn't showing off a ton of skill; he just needs to figure out how to draft himself some simple and potent heroes so that he can focus more on what he actually lends to the team. Sumail does seem to be slumping, though. They need to bump him down a level or two on hero farm and focus on playmaking. Probably he's just having a bad month. Everyone has those, and I can't imagine getting destroyed by the skilled and wily s4 helps. The idea that ppd (or pld for that matter) is not a great player is just a meme. He's one of the only supports who gets consistently mentioned by other pros as being a top player. For Fng, one of the problem with old EG was that they all had incredible individual talent and could each outplay you. Puppey said in his reddit AMA that if you wanted to get better at support you should watch ppd and fy. After TI5, Envy said that ppd was the best 5 position in the world and that he was the only player in EG to be better than their TI5 Secret counterpart. Mason and Aui also said he was the best, both after they were kicked. And there are probably a lot of others I don't remember or haven't seen. I don't know how he's going to ever get out of that reputation... On the flip side he also has the reputation of being a mastermind of the draft when he said time and again that drafts/strategy decisions are made as a team and he only makes the final call... I think you're confusing things. He's a superb person to have on a team and contributes massively to EG's successes, but in terms of sheer mechanical ability, he's below the majority of the supports in the scene. Let me express it this way: if PPD was unable to communicate except via chatwheel, it would affect him far more than the same penalty would affect most support players. This is because what makes him so damn good is not his play so much as his ability through drafting and strategy to allow his team to play at full capacity. This is what the pros mean when they say these things. The alternative, to assume that he's a brilliant playmaker and a mechanical genius, is absurd. There's a reason why he drafts himself heroes like Treant Protector, Vengeful Spirit, and Dazzle: they require extraordinarily little mechanical skill to play, as opposed to more aggressive heroes like Rubick and junglers like Chen. He can play those ones too, but it's laughable to think that his skill on them even approaches players like Kuroky or Akke. PPD's role in the game is as a constant guiding intelligence. He deliberately does very little that occupies his attention, so that he can think about things that his players are too busy to consider. This is what makes him such an incredibly valuable 5 position, and why those pros are completely right to say he's the best in the world. It's worth noting, though, that you pretty much need to discard everything Envy says about the game. He's not dumb, not in the least, but he has his own weird definitions for things that don't match up to the way other players talk about the game. Until Envy releases a full dictionary so we can translate, it's much better to ignore him. For reference, have you ever watched him stream in some kind of scrim situation, or a game similar to it? I have. He spends the entire game giving instructions and watching his teammates. There's very little mechanical prowess involved. That's the distinction I'm trying to draw out. He could do the same job at even more skill as a coach, if coaches were allowed to talk to players ingame again.
Is that really the reason? Or is it because those heroes don't require nearly as much gold to be successful as other supports, and he typically plays the ultra-poor style of supporting? He can't be expected to look as good as other players on supports that require items like blink dagger, meka, etc, when he plays a less gold centric style so that his other allies can gain more.
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EG looked way better against LGD than against VG
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On January 31 2016 09:43 rabidch wrote:
EG looked way better against LGD than against VG
EG has played against LGD many, many more times than they have against VG on this patch, and therefore have a much better understanding of how LGD tries to play.
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On January 31 2016 05:37 Acritter wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2016 04:18 Diavlo wrote:On January 30 2016 11:09 Acritter wrote:On January 29 2016 21:57 Atoissen wrote:On January 29 2016 07:26 bumwithagun wrote:
sumail has been having a terrible time mid this patch. It's clear his invoker is a tier below the top invoker players like Miracle and w33ha. He also has lost some mid match ups that equally skilled players should not have lost. I think the kid needs to take the next month and spam. kinda agree, think sumail and ppd have looked the least sharp of the eg guys. its very small things to adjust to be on top of ur game again tho. btw, i think miracle looks alott better then w33, but I havent seen all secret games tho. PPD is not a great player. He's a good player, but not a great one. He's a stellar captain, which makes up for it, but he's always going to be at his best when the relevant supports require very little mechanical skill and only moderate tactical skill (for example, defensive supports). So I wouldn't be worried if he isn't showing off a ton of skill; he just needs to figure out how to draft himself some simple and potent heroes so that he can focus more on what he actually lends to the team. Sumail does seem to be slumping, though. They need to bump him down a level or two on hero farm and focus on playmaking. Probably he's just having a bad month. Everyone has those, and I can't imagine getting destroyed by the skilled and wily s4 helps. The idea that ppd (or pld for that matter) is not a great player is just a meme. He's one of the only supports who gets consistently mentioned by other pros as being a top player. For Fng, one of the problem with old EG was that they all had incredible individual talent and could each outplay you. Puppey said in his reddit AMA that if you wanted to get better at support you should watch ppd and fy. After TI5, Envy said that ppd was the best 5 position in the world and that he was the only player in EG to be better than their TI5 Secret counterpart. Mason and Aui also said he was the best, both after they were kicked. And there are probably a lot of others I don't remember or haven't seen. I don't know how he's going to ever get out of that reputation... On the flip side he also has the reputation of being a mastermind of the draft when he said time and again that drafts/strategy decisions are made as a team and he only makes the final call... I think you're confusing things. He's a superb person to have on a team and contributes massively to EG's successes, but in terms of sheer mechanical ability, he's below the majority of the supports in the scene. Let me express it this way: if PPD was unable to communicate except via chatwheel, it would affect him far more than the same penalty would affect most support players. This is because what makes him so damn good is not his play so much as his ability through drafting and strategy to allow his team to play at full capacity. This is what the pros mean when they say these things. The alternative, to assume that he's a brilliant playmaker and a mechanical genius, is absurd. There's a reason why he drafts himself heroes like Treant Protector, Vengeful Spirit, and Dazzle: they require extraordinarily little mechanical skill to play, as opposed to more aggressive heroes like Rubick and junglers like Chen. He can play those ones too, but it's laughable to think that his skill on them even approaches players like Kuroky or Akke. PPD's role in the game is as a constant guiding intelligence. He deliberately does very little that occupies his attention, so that he can think about things that his players are too busy to consider. This is what makes him such an incredibly valuable 5 position, and why those pros are completely right to say he's the best in the world. It's worth noting, though, that you pretty much need to discard everything Envy says about the game. He's not dumb, not in the least, but he has his own weird definitions for things that don't match up to the way other players talk about the game. Until Envy releases a full dictionary so we can translate, it's much better to ignore him. For reference, have you ever watched him stream in some kind of scrim situation, or a game similar to it? I have. He spends the entire game giving instructions and watching his teammates. There's very little mechanical prowess involved. That's the distinction I'm trying to draw out. He could do the same job at even more skill as a coach, if coaches were allowed to talk to players ingame again.
Having low mechanical abilities is one of the most irrelevant thing in a 5 position. What makes ppd a great player is his positioning, his decision making in fights, his movement on the map and his warding which are so much more important.
It's not an accident he is the best Treant player. Yes I have seen him focus on direction in stream and I've also seen him wreck face in pro game with Lion/Bane (like last game against OG).
Who gives a shit about mechanics, he isn't playing Invoker or Naga. Yes it makes him weaker on some heroes like Chen/Ench, but most players have limited hero pools. Akke can't play Enigma or Rubick but it's his warding that got Alliance a TI victory (according to s4).
This is the full puppey quote: "Watch good support players, how they move in fogs, how do they ward, Fy and ppd are good choices to start with"
Could ppd play a core position on a top team? No. Does it matter? No.
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I think mechanical ability is vastly overrated in dota, at least for pro players. There is no way that someone like ppd who plays the game full time for years can't master even the most difficult supports. This game isn't brood war, the mechanical ceiling isn't really all that high. The difficulty in dota lies elsewhere. Sure there's going the be some difference in talent evident when playing the most demanding cores, but saying ppd couldn't play a core in a top team doesn't really seem plausible to me (with some practice of course.
And ppd has hands down the best positioning in the game, at least in my opinion.
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On January 31 2016 17:54 Shikada wrote:
I think mechanical ability is vastly overrated in dota, at least for pro players. There is no way that someone like ppd who plays the game full time for years can't master even the most difficult supports. This game isn't brood war, the mechanical ceiling isn't really all that high. The difficulty in dota lies elsewhere. Sure there's going the be some difference in talent evident when playing the most demanding cores, but saying ppd couldn't play a core in a top team doesn't really seem plausible to me (with some practice of course.
And ppd has hands down the best positioning in the game, at least in my opinion.
yet he has not!
eg is notorious for not able to run the following heros:
chen, io, rubick, earth spirit. and this patch is actually hurting them for not able to run these heros and having to ban them instead of stealing them.
the single new hero I see ppd picked up is oracle as of late.
so no i don't think you can pick up heros like that. The heros are more complex than just clicking, so mechanical skill isn't the sole limiter to what hero you can play.
eg is extremely good at drafting comfort heros for their players and somehow make the draft still very strong. that's what makes eg great.
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When have they had a reason to really practice Chen outside of very recently? Maybe they won't be able to play it, maybe they will learn it. Earth Spirit also only recently was enabled in CM and EG is 5-1 with it so I wouldn't put that hero there either. Wisp is probably the best example, but this dates back even to the stage when they had Zai in the lineup. Idk if it is a player problem or a problem of not just completely understanding how to draft and play with the hero. Rubick I guess is fitting, I think PPD even said at some point during the Aui lineup that neither he or Aui were all that comfortable playing it, but I also don't think Rubick is that vital of a hero to play. I don't think it opens up similar possibilities in the draft as Chen or Wisp could.
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fear used to play chen a long long time ago. however, hes probably massively out of practice and EG dont feel confident enough with chen to use it
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Despite the loss, EG still showed their A class aura. At the start of the tournament, they were horrible. Then they changed things up in terms of drafts and were back to their best. Game 3 should be theirs if not for mistakes.
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all in all a good tournament for eg... my biggest concern is that they arent going to any more tournaments before shanghai.
You could see it in this finale, its a huge range of heroes being used, this patch will keep developing in the next 4-5 weeks, and im afraid the other teams are gonna have a draft advantage going into the major.
i hope they go into beastmode training, as rtz and fear needs a couple more heroes in theier pool imo
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On January 31 2016 22:54 DucK- wrote:
Despite the loss, EG still showed their A class aura. At the start of the tournament, they were horrible. Then they changed things up in terms of drafts and were back to their best. Game 3 should be theirs if not for mistakes.
Which mistake? Not banning ES? Bane laning choice and PPD's first skill point? Or Arteezy walking into a key Chrono? Or forgetting to defend bottom rax? Or something else?
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On January 31 2016 23:09 FuzzyJAM wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2016 22:54 DucK- wrote:
Despite the loss, EG still showed their A class aura. At the start of the tournament, they were horrible. Then they changed things up in terms of drafts and were back to their best. Game 3 should be theirs if not for mistakes. Which mistake? Not banning ES? Bane laning choice and PPD's first skill point? Or Arteezy walking into a key Chrono? Or forgetting to defend bottom rax? Or something else?
PPD first skill point and rtz walking into chronos were the key mistakes. The former meant that they had a shit laning phase, the latter meant that they couldn't get objectives after a great initiation.
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EG did really well at MDL, and showed that their biggest asset of adapting is still very good. Props to Sumail for how he's changed to a switch-hitter position and expanded his hero pool even more. They are definitely still feeling out how to play this patch. I think as a whole they're still trying to figure out what heroes they want to prioritize for 4 and 1. 1st, 2nd, 2nd at the last 3 tournaments - looking just as good as old EG results-wise.
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PPD first skill point and rtz walking into chronos were the key mistakes. The former meant that they had a shit laning phase.
In the first blood it was an outplay by Eleven and Kaka, the first one holded his skill point until he saw the opening, and the second showed at the best time, even if he had grave/wave, it wouldn't have changed much, since Enchant had boot (on top of 330 base ms).
Only the safe lane went wrong (despite Sumail 2 deaths early), void was able to keep up with morh on hard lane and Lina destroyed viper mid (with bane's help).
Just keep in mind this; there are 2 kind of mistakes: straight out mistakes (miss spells..etc) and forced mistakes, caused by the opponent play.
Overall it was a good and enjoyable series. and CTY made the difference.
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On January 31 2016 23:32 DucK- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2016 23:09 FuzzyJAM wrote:On January 31 2016 22:54 DucK- wrote:
Despite the loss, EG still showed their A class aura. At the start of the tournament, they were horrible. Then they changed things up in terms of drafts and were back to their best. Game 3 should be theirs if not for mistakes. Which mistake? Not banning ES? Bane laning choice and PPD's first skill point? Or Arteezy walking into a key Chrono? Or forgetting to defend bottom rax? Or something else? PPD first skill point and rtz walking into chronos were the key mistakes. The former meant that they had a shit laning phase, the latter meant that they couldn't get objectives after a great initiation.
But when there are a lot of mistakes, it's time to realise that's just the level of play they brought. I think the C9 forgotten TP's is a good example of a "If only they hadn't made that mistake" type deal, but when it's a bunch of things it's more "Well they just didn't play well enough".
Which is cool, EG can play better, and they're still my favourite to win Shanghai.
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On January 31 2016 18:59 evanthebouncy! wrote:Show nested quote +On January 31 2016 17:54 Shikada wrote:
I think mechanical ability is vastly overrated in dota, at least for pro players. There is no way that someone like ppd who plays the game full time for years can't master even the most difficult supports. This game isn't brood war, the mechanical ceiling isn't really all that high. The difficulty in dota lies elsewhere. Sure there's going the be some difference in talent evident when playing the most demanding cores, but saying ppd couldn't play a core in a top team doesn't really seem plausible to me (with some practice of course.
And ppd has hands down the best positioning in the game, at least in my opinion. yet he has not! eg is notorious for not able to run the following heros: chen, io, rubick, earth spirit. and this patch is actually hurting them for not able to run these heros and having to ban them instead of stealing them. the single new hero I see ppd picked up is oracle as of late. so no i don't think you can pick up heros like that. The heros are more complex than just clicking, so mechanical skill isn't the sole limiter to what hero you can play. eg is extremely good at drafting comfort heros for their players and somehow make the draft still very strong. that's what makes eg great.
Fear plays an absolutely fine ES.
They don't play Io that's true, but it doesn't really hurt them since they are the best team against it (they are 22-5 against it since Sumail joined).
Rubick doesn't seem to be a hero ppd finds particularly good. In a draft analysis he said the hero had potential and that maybe Aui and him should practice him a bit to get comfortable. He probably changed his mind. And Fear used to play Rubick a lot when he played for the old version of EG on support...
As for Chen, ppd doesn't play it particularly well but he plays it and might become better on it.
Every player has a limited hero pool, ppds is pretty large all thing considered (or at least he's willing to play non comfort heroes) and Fears is enormous.
It goes for every team, Chinese ones don't play Io anymore either, nobody but EG plays Enigma or Treant .
For perspective over 25 games at MDL ppd played 11 different heroes, Fear played 15. Over 21 games kaka played 9 heroes, Lanm played 11. Over 17 games, Cr1t and Fly both played 6 heroes.
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EPT
