EPTEvil Geniuses Discussion - Page 70
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wims80
1892 Posts
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Gaial
United States313 Posts
I'm not worried, between PPD, Fear, and Universe they have a more mature leadership than pretty much every team out there. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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lolnoty
United States7166 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
The other thing is that ppd probably feels a bit like he failed in the drafting of the Finals. Which ends up taking away from one of the most brilliant professional level drafts in the series against OG. One of the downsides of losing the finals is that no one really remembers the brilliant things that happened before since you lost. Much like a repeat of Frankfurt for both Secret & EG, as their Upper Bracket series was one of the best Dota we've seen. They'll be okay. Peter is going to spend time figuring out old chicken. All he has to do is figure out how to break the first phase setup that Ehome uses, as they can't win a 2nd Pick match to save their lives this patch. (That's not a joke, either. They've won 3 total out of 30ish.) | ||
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Caladbolg
2855 Posts
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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Taf the Ghost
United States11751 Posts
On February 03 2016 16:22 Acritter wrote: I'm very surprised he doesn't spare a word for Alliance. I can understand why some people think they'll just be a flash in the pan, but the Swedes have made a habit of seriously punishing people who don't take them seriously, and even do major damage to people who try and prepare. In the YouTube comments, he mentions he just forgot to put them on there. He'd put them in the 2nd tier of teams at Shanghai. He thinks people will have time and be ready for them. As for the drafts, I kind of wish he had highlighted the two OG drafts. ppd destroyed Fly in those drafts. Though the preparation difference was really noticeable between the drafts vs OG and vs Ehome. And that Visage ban was bad the instant I saw it. ppd's banning is normally where he gets so much work done, but maybe they just made a mistake in their notes for the match. It happens. Though Ehome is going to crash out in Shanghai if old chicken doesn't get better at drafting. This was old chicken's first non-Chinese tournament drafting, and that did give him a subtle edge due to be unknown. But we now have a larger sample of how he operates, there is a set of strategies he uses that won't hold up. He produces draft advantages with First Pick by only deciding his strategy with the second First Phase pick. Then, from there, he works by producing a "gotcha" pick in the 4th or 5th slot. This is the reason for him banning Broodmother a lot. Still, EG, for all of their slow start/bad play in parts of the tournament, did come in 2nd and sorted out a few problems from Starladder. I look forward to seeing them in Captain's Draft and Shanghai. | ||
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rabidch
United States20289 Posts
(and can play earth spirit) | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
EG is definitely still favored to win in Shanghai, though. They're just incredibly strong, consistent, and resilient. With them, EHOME, OG, and Alliance set to go to the event, I'm really excited to see how all the matches end up playing out. Even if only two of those four teams give the kind of performances that they've been giving up to this point, it'll still be a glorious tournament with some superb play. | ||
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lolnoty
United States7166 Posts
When he moved back to Alliance, he brought his top-tier leadership back and it's extremely reminiscent of 2015 Team Secret in game style*. The issue with current Alliance is I don't think his cast of players will supply the level of contribution to keep S4's draft/play ideals up to par with shifting metas like Team Secret 2015 did. Right now they're having success with S4's style as applied to their comfortable heroes and roles, and it hasn't been shown if that will be viable to them when the meta shifts again. Nahaz putting Alliance in the 2nd tier of Shanghai and not 1st is understandably cautious. *I'm extremely opposed to people thinking current Alliance is anything like 2013 Alliance besides the players. The style is so much closer to 2015 Secret than it is 2013 Alliance. Same players and heroes, but in game movement, decisions, and timings are what matters. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6226 Posts
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lolnoty
United States7166 Posts
On February 04 2016 08:28 Belisarius wrote: Alliance's success is off the back of the fact that all the heroes Bulldog can play got simultaneously buffed into the meta again... That's a very reddit explanation. It's more likely that bulldog can play more than 3-4 heroes and the major factor that changed the teams year+ of bad play is the team changed how they played. The way they've changed mirrors how S4 led secret. | ||
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
On February 04 2016 04:30 lolnoty wrote: Alliance's success of is on the back of S4's in game leadership and drafting. On team secret, he had a better cast of players with more ideas and in game capability to compliment what he picked and how they worked in the standard Team Secret style. They could adapt across metas easily with their players and how they all thought of the game. When he moved back to Alliance, he brought his top-tier leadership back and it's extremely reminiscent of 2015 Team Secret in game style*. The issue with current Alliance is I don't think his cast of players will supply the level of contribution to keep S4's draft/play ideals up to par with shifting metas like Team Secret 2015 did. Right now they're having success with S4's style as applied to their comfortable heroes and roles, and it hasn't been shown if that will be viable to them when the meta shifts again. Nahaz putting Alliance in the 2nd tier of Shanghai and not 1st is understandably cautious. *I'm extremely opposed to people thinking current Alliance is anything like 2013 Alliance besides the players. The style is so much closer to 2015 Secret than it is 2013 Alliance. Same players and heroes, but in game movement, decisions, and timings are what matters. Hmm... I'd disagree with everything you say here. This is 2013 Alliance with some minor adjustments which make them better suited to the post-2013 game (which is a massive change that cannot be understated). Really, it would be far better to say that Secret took a lot of their cues from 2013 Alliance in terms of map movements and farming efficiency. And saying that Team Secret kept up with the meta... that's kind of revisionist history, isn't it? In reality, they fell behind the meta. | ||
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lolnoty
United States7166 Posts
On February 04 2016 11:07 Acritter wrote: Hmm... I'd disagree with everything you say here. This is 2013 Alliance with some minor adjustments which make them better suited to the post-2013 game (which is a massive change that cannot be understated). Really, it would be far better to say that Secret took a lot of their cues from 2013 Alliance in terms of map movements and farming efficiency. And saying that Team Secret kept up with the meta... that's kind of revisionist history, isn't it? In reality, they fell behind the meta. Revisionist how? Team Secret dominated dota for 3-4 months and crumbled under drama for TI5. Puppey led TS with mediocre ( for a top 3 team) results prior to that, and for their mediocre performance after that. I don't think 1 patch = 1 meta, there's a dozen or more for each patch that shift during and between tournaments. TS didn't take cues from Alliance so much as they took the captain from Alliance, but with a better supporting cast capable of S4's captaining potential. The 2013 alliance playstyle can never be emulated after the butchering icefrog gave the game (which are mostly all non-hero changes) in the patches between TI3-> present. When S4 came back to Alliance the team took a more aggressive approach than their 2013 ever regularly used that looks closer to TS S4. | ||
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Belisarius
Australia6226 Posts
On February 04 2016 10:54 lolnoty wrote: That's a very reddit explanation. It's more likely that bulldog can play more than 3-4 heroes and the major factor that changed the teams year+ of bad play is the team changed how they played. The way they've changed mirrors how S4 led secret. And yet no matter what other explanations you invent, plots of "strength of LD+NP(+bat+clock)" and "winrate of Alliance" are probably going to overlay. s4 is a word class player and their supports are clicking well right now, but they will always be ruled by bulldog's ludicrously small hero pool and whether it's in vogue. Valve buffed his entire repertoire in one patch. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On February 04 2016 11:07 Acritter wrote: Hmm... I'd disagree with everything you say here. This is 2013 Alliance with some minor adjustments which make them better suited to the post-2013 game (which is a massive change that cannot be understated). Really, it would be far better to say that Secret took a lot of their cues from 2013 Alliance in terms of map movements and farming efficiency. And saying that Team Secret kept up with the meta... that's kind of revisionist history, isn't it? In reality, they fell behind the meta. Secret created most of the 2015 meta up until TI5. The problem with that team is that they'd shake up the scene, dominate, and then have zero backup plans. | ||
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Bigtony
United States1606 Posts
On February 03 2016 16:22 Acritter wrote: I'm very surprised he doesn't spare a word for Alliance. I can understand why some people think they'll just be a flash in the pan, but the Swedes have made a habit of seriously punishing people who don't take them seriously, and even do major damage to people who try and prepare. Well they werent actually at MDL so they are not fresh in our minds. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
Concerning Bulldog I think the issue is more in how the team needs to work leadership wise. When s4 plays a tempo controller, he can lead the team. When he is forced to play a carry and Bulldog plays a tempo hero, it's far more difficult for s4 to make the calls because he isn't the one moving around all the time. It isn't so much about whether someone can play a hero mechanically but more about can you consistently be in the right place at the right time and also make your teammates be there to support you. And when the offlane heroes start to prioritize passive farming, it plays into Alliance's hands role wise. Their own safelane often isn't getting contested so they can get levels on supports and the carry and then fight together with s4. Who knows exactly how well they would do if the patch was a bit different. Not that some heroes they like are in general overpowered or something but anyway buffs to the heroes you specifically want to use help of course, especially when it's combined with nerfs to some heroes / styles you didn't do so well with. Concerning EG, at this point it would be a bit foolish I guess to suspect EG wouldn't do well at Shanghai considering they've made it deep in all events they've played recently. But one thing I find interesting is that in pretty much every tournament EG has a bunch of close calls. For example after the major at Summit they won all their series 2-1 or 3-2, at SL they were extremely close to not making it out of groups, at MDL too they were 1 game away from starting from lower bracket. Sort of similar story at Frankfurt major (2-1 wins in 3 first series) and at MLG too (losing 2 series, all series they won were 2-1) . It's not just "day 1 EG" but more so that they consistently play close series and have eventually come out on top. When you consistently end up making it through anyway one can't really call it luck, but anyway going into Frankfurt I think there are a lot of teams where I wouldn't even go "what a shock!" if they happened to beat EG in one series. Though of course the opposite can be true as well and EG just becomes even stronger and instead just walks through their opponents until the later stages. | ||
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